My Friend and his argument

[Velheka]

Ok, before I start I would like to make it clear this ISN'T my opinion, this is my friend who will use my account to debate with you guys, He's a staunch Capitalist, but I've asked him to keep it calm and not devolve it into a flame war. So.. We will now take over.

"Communism doesn't work, when has it ever worked?"

[RGacky3]

Anarchist Spain 1930s, Chiapas, 90s till now, Ukraine, 1910s, Russia 1917 until the bolsheviks took over totally, United states early religious communities, verious american indian groups, paris commune, coops, Argentenian worker run areas.

Then you have capitalist countries that have incorporated socialism.

Just because its a sickle and a hammer does'nt make it communism, and just because it does'nt does'nt mean it is'nt.

[Kotze]

Can he first say what he means by the terms capitalism and communism, because people have vastly different definitions (even happens among the users of this board who claim to have the same tendency)?

[#FF0000]

Where has democracy "worked" prior to 1776? Rome? Psh, that turned into a totalitarian dictatorship!

EDIT: I'll post a serious response later

[Optiow]

Ok, before I start I would like to make it clear this ISN'T my opinion, this is my friend who will use my account to debate with you guys, He's a staunch Capitalist, but I've asked him to keep it calm and not devolve it into a flame war. So.. We will now take over.

"Communism doesn't work, when has it ever worked?"
Well it all depends on his definition of a communist fail, doesn't it?

[Ele'ill]

"Communism doesn't work, when has it ever worked?"


You have to first determine what the phrase 'doesn't work' means and determine at what point is a social, political or economic system not 'working'.

I would argue that capitalism isn't working and the reasons why it isn't working are directly related to how it operates at it's core or better yet- even 'how it's supposed to operate'- where as some of the other systems have not worked because of external circumstances-

The argument should never be that a system can just be eradicated and replaced with another one- it isn't an easy process and it has many challenges- The flip side to this is that there are tons of people willing to work towards what I would consider social justice-

[Drace]

That's like saying,
"Capitalism has never worked, when has it ever worked?" 300 years ago.

[Bud Struggle]

Communism has worked for a short time on a small scale in a number of places--those RGacky mentioned and probably some more. Where it has fallen apart is in any large scale attempt--and to be fair there have been numerous attempts at Communism.

That's not to say it can't happen. What has been the case in the past though is Communism has proved particularly fragile in the area of Democracy so most Communist Revolutions tend to become totalitarian rather quickly.

The other problem that Communism has had is that once Democracy is obliterated in a country the organization of the country tends to become ossified and resistant to any growth or change. And to further complicate matters Capitalism is very prone to "capitalize" on any sort of problem within Communism and tends to mutate to fit the situation a hand.

None of this is to say that Communism can't work in the future if conditions are right. Those right conditions would include an overall class consciousness and general unification of goals and morality within the members of a specific or universal society.

[RGacky3]

Where it has fallen apart is in any large scale attempt--and to be fair there have been numerous attempts at Communism.


What made them fall was'nt the fact that they were large scale, its that they were leninist and authoritarian in nature.


What has been the case in the past though is Communism has proved particularly fragile in the area of Democracy so most Communist Revolutions tend to become totalitarian rather quickly.


I don't think thats anything to do with the nature of communism, it has to do with the nature of leninism, the Russian revolution could have easily become a democratic society, however Lenin won, after that all the sickle and hammer revolutions followed his model.


The other problem that Communism has had is that once Democracy is obliterated in a country the organization of the country tends to become ossified and resistant to any growth or change. And to further complicate matters Capitalism is very prone to "capitalize" on any sort of problem within Communism and tends to mutate to fit the situation a hand.

Thats true, once you take democracy out of the picture, then socialism is gone too, and then your just left with a couple guys running everything, that sort of situation is unstable and capitalism is generally gonna win out.


None of this is to say that Communism can't work in the future if conditions are right. Those right conditions would include an overall class consciousness and general unification of goals and morality within the members of a specific or universal society.

Class consciousness is there, (remember class situations change and class power changes, so its gonna be different in 2010 then it was in 1910), we see that by the almost universal recognition in the west of the bankers, the big ceos and the such, in parts of the third world anti-imperislist movements are gaining more and more support, thats class consiousness.

What needs to happen is democratic reform first imo, more and more democracy, revolution also is gonna be different in different countries, whats needed in Zimbabue, is gonna be different than in Italy.