Friend of mine injured in Afghanistan

[Stand Your Ground]

When Army Spec. Andy Kingsley of Athol woke up in a hospital in Landstuhl, Germany, his right leg was gone, and he had serious injuries to his face and right hand from a July 12 mortar blast in Afghanistan.
But he was glad when he learned his comrades were all alive.
“On the helicopter ride out of there, I knew I took the majority of the blast. I thought I was going to die that day,” Kingsley told the Herald by phone from Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, D.C. “My hand was burnt, my eye was sewn up and I had shrapnel in my right leg and arm. But when I woke up in Germany, I was told that my unit were OK because of me. That picked my spirits up.”

A 2008 Athol High School grad, Kingsley grew up in a military family and was motivated to follow in his father’s footsteps.
“I wanted to experience it. I feel proud do to service for my county as well,” he said. Despite his severe wounds, he said, “I want to use my G.I. Bill and go to school, get a teaching degree and live a simple life. I’m going to be the teacher that can talk about the effects of different countries and share my experiences.”
In Athol, family and friends are planning a homecoming and are raising funds via a Facebook page, “Pray for Andy Kingsley-Wounded Soldier,” to buy him a modified vehicle.
“His pride is there. He has a strong will,” Retired Sgt. 1st Class Keith Kingsley said. “He’ll get a Purple Heart, but the community supports my son, too. Whatever he wants we’ll get for him.”

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1269215

I'm gonna donate as much money as I can for him. :( Despite how patriotic he is he's a childhood friend, I can't turn my back on him.

[mollymae]

Sorry to hear that man, but it's good that he seems to have a positive attitude (from what we can tell from the article anyway).

[this is an invasion]

“My hand was burnt, my eye was sewn up and I had shrapnel in my right leg and arm. But when I woke up in Germany, I was told that my unit were OK because of me. That picked my spirits up.”


This is why I like some soldiers. Solid grasp on friendship.

[The Douche]

Sorry about your leg son, here's a useless hunk of shiny metal, move along. :rolleyes:

[Stand Your Ground]

Sorry about your leg son, here's a useless hunk of shiny metal, move along. :rolleyes:
Yeah those fuckers up top really appreciate what they're doing for them.

[The Feral Underclass]

“My hand was burnt, my eye was sewn up and I had shrapnel in my right leg and arm. But when I woke up in Germany, I was told that my unit were OK because of me. That picked my spirits up.”


This is why I like some soldiers. Solid grasp on friendship.

Are you being sarcastic, I can't tell :p

I actually think that the camaraderie and solidarity between soldiers is something to be greatly admired. If you are to strip away the reasons, motivations and courses of wars in a capitalist society, and focused directly on the rank-and-file, soldier experience of war, then you find a whole range of human behaviour which is both brave and sacrificial and something to really respect.

[S.Artesian]

Don't buy into that camaraderie and solidarity fantasy being sold-- it's based first of all on tearing everybody down to nothing, and then rebuilding them as sociopaths-- where they act without remorse or empathy upon receiving the sanction from those who command them.

Let's be clear, basic training, at least back in the day was built around convincing everyone that you were the next biggest piece of shit on the planet; the biggest piece of shit being the guy next to you-- especially if he was physically a little weaker, or had gone to college, or thought there was more to life that 3 squares and a safe place to piss.

Then you get rebuilt-- you get rewarded, you get to feel worthwhile by being the most merciless fucker you can be-- for that you're told you're "outstanding."

I don't know what you've seen or what you've experienced, but My Lai in Vietnam was no isolated incident, and no accident.... as the cover up proved. Happened all the time, and happened in Korea too.

So it's terrible about your friend, and yes you should stand by him because he's your friend, and because he's a human being who's going to need help. But he's no hero. And there's nothing, not a fucking thing, heroic or noble in those emotions of camaraderie he expressed for his unit.

[Invincible Summer]

He should totally become a cyborg

[Chimurenga.]

That sucks man. A friend of mine just shipped off for basic. I'm hoping he doesn't come out as bad as I think he will but it's possible.

[mykittyhasaboner]

Don't buy into that camaraderie and solidarity fantasy being sold-- it's based first of all on tearing everybody down to nothing, and then rebuilding them as sociopaths-- where they act without remorse or empathy upon receiving the sanction from those who command them.

Let's be clear, basic training, at least back in the day was built around convincing everyone that you were the next biggest piece of shit on the planet; the biggest piece of shit being the guy next to you-- especially if he was physically a little weaker, or had gone to college, or thought there was more to life that 3 squares and a safe place to piss.

Then you get rebuilt-- you get rewarded, you get to feel worthwhile by being the most merciless fucker you can be-- for that you're told you're "outstanding."

I don't know what you've seen or what you've experienced, but My Lai in Vietnam was no isolated incident, and no accident.... as the cover up proved. Happened all the time, and happened in Korea too.

So it's terrible about your friend, and yes you should stand by him because he's your friend, and because he's a human being who's going to need help. But he's no hero. And there's nothing, not a fucking thing, heroic or noble in those emotions of camaraderie he expressed for his unit.

Great post. I think it puts a valid point on the table: that the soldiers of today's imperialist armies are glorified for their "camaraderie" and "sacrifice" all the time without being substantially put into context--and that this is used as an effective propaganda weapon. It's a way of playing with people's emotions, and I find it really sickening.

I know that what I just said is obvious, but its an important sentiment to criticize. I would guess that more than half of the people who support imperialism do so because of this reason (as well as the fact that most people who support wars actually know people who volunteer to go fight for the US military or whatever). The problem is that when people who hold these views are challenged it's not easy to avoid running into strong emotions and it tends to take over any kind of rational argument. Let's face it, if someone plays the emotional card for US soldiers, it's not uncommon for opponents to use the same technique, just the other way around.

I would like to hear other people's methods of arguing against this sentiment and avoiding emotion-driven nonsense. Of course, if you like to buy in to the "camaraderie" stories then your about as useless when it comes to opposing imperialism than the average idiot who thinks the "War on Terror" is about fighting "terrorism".

[Lyev]

You're quite right. I despise this empty, moralistic, cheap "Help for Heroes" filth. Admittedly, a lot of the people that back this charity have had injured or dead relatives & friends themselves but to call them "heroes" is something else. Killing unarmed civilians (regardless of whether they're children, women, old, men etc.), which is the first in a whole line of atrocities committed by NATO troops, does not make you a hero.

[The Douche]

Don't buy into that camaraderie and solidarity fantasy being sold-- it's based first of all on tearing everybody down to nothing, and then rebuilding them as sociopaths-- where they act without remorse or empathy upon receiving the sanction from those who command them.

Let's be clear, basic training, at least back in the day was built around convincing everyone that you were the next biggest piece of shit on the planet; the biggest piece of shit being the guy next to you-- especially if he was physically a little weaker, or had gone to college, or thought there was more to life that 3 squares and a safe place to piss.

Then you get rebuilt-- you get rewarded, you get to feel worthwhile by being the most merciless fucker you can be-- for that you're told you're "outstanding."

I don't know what you've seen or what you've experienced, but My Lai in Vietnam was no isolated incident, and no accident.... as the cover up proved. Happened all the time, and happened in Korea too.

So it's terrible about your friend, and yes you should stand by him because he's your friend, and because he's a human being who's going to need help. But he's no hero. And there's nothing, not a fucking thing, heroic or noble in those emotions of camaraderie he expressed for his unit.

Yep, thats me, a sociotpath who knows neither remorse nor empathy.


Fuck yourself.:thumbup1:

[FreeFocus]

Yep, thats me, a sociotpath who knows neither remorse nor empathy.


Fuck yourself.:thumbup1:

So, you're the rare case where the military failed.

[this is an invasion]

Are you being sarcastic, I can't tell :p

I actually think that the camaraderie and solidarity between soldiers is something to be greatly admired. If you are to strip away the reasons, motivations and courses of wars in a capitalist society, and focused directly on the rank-and-file, soldier experience of war, then you find a whole range of human behaviour which is both brave and sacrificial and something to really respect.

Being totally serious.

[Andrei Kuznetsov]

That sucks to hear man. My best friend just got back from Afghanistan, with a Bronze Star that he won on the day he lost his other best friend. He plans to send it back because of the shit he saw on that day.

Now I can't wait for him to get out of reserves so he can join the anti-war movement...

[The Douche]

So, you're the rare case where the military failed.

There are thousands of soldiers and ex-soldiers who are active in the anti-war movement and who are radicals, and tens of thousands more who are sympathetic to it. People like you, and the ideas you espouse are the reason why the rights dominates the military.


Now I can't wait for him to get out of reserves so he can join the anti-war movement...

There is no reason he can't be involved right now. I am still enlisted and am a member of IVAW.

[Andrei Kuznetsov]

There is no reason he can't be involved right now. I am still enlisted and am a member of IVAW.

Really? He's terrified that he'll get a dishonorable discharge for joining.

[The Douche]

Really? He's terrified that he'll get a dishonorable discharge for joining.

Like I said, still enlisted, and am in IVAW. They can't kick you out for your political opinions. There are lots of IVAW members still serving. Tell him to look at this (http://www.scribd.com/doc/3347020/IVAW-Know-Your-Rights-Leaflet)

[FreeFocus]

There are thousands of soldiers and ex-soldiers who are active in the anti-war movement and who are radicals, and tens of thousands more who are sympathetic to it. People like you, and the ideas you espouse are the reason why the rights dominates the military.

There is no reason he can't be involved right now. I am still enlisted and am a member of IVAW.

"Tens of thousands" out of millions of active duty and vets still would mean they are "rare cases." And no, the rights dominating the military (really, it could have no other political orientation) is the reason I espouse the ideas that I do, not the other way around.

[The Douche]

"Tens of thousands" out of millions of active duty and vets still would mean they are "rare cases." And no, the rights dominating the military (really, it could have no other political orientation) is the reason I espouse the ideas that I do, not the other way around.

So a poor kid enlists, serves four years, and you call him a "sociopath", and then you expect us to somehow build resistance within the military?

[soyonstout]

AntiRacistFaction, that's terrible about your friend. Of course you should help him. During WWI revolutionaries would sometimes refer to soldiers as "workers (and peasants) in uniform" and in fact soldiers were in many ways at the forefront of the Russian Revolution.

I think the 'heros' characterization is awful, but the 'sociopaths' is worse. How about 'victims' of imperialism (victims and servants of, really--much like how the working class are both victims and servants of capitalism)? this i think stresses solidarity and the fraternization of all the exploited, which is more along the lines of why the working class gains nothing from imperialist wars. it's also important to point out that the 'choice' of enlisting is far from free, and the penalties for trying to get out are very grave, not to mention returning back to the world that the military was supposed to be your ticket out of.

-soyons tout

[this is an invasion]

To be clear I wasn't talking about soldiers being "heroes" and I don't think TAT was either. I don't think soldiers are a homogenous group nor do i think any job at all is particularly "heroic." I just think that due to their circumstances soldiers develop strong relationships that most people don't experience.

[S.Artesian]

Yep, thats me, a sociotpath who knows neither remorse nor empathy.


Fuck yourself.:thumbup1:


Likewise, I'm sure.

I didn't say it worked, I said that's how the training worked. It didn't say it was always successful, or successful at all, past the point where the command to fire was given, if the command was even necessary. I said that's what they, the command structure wanted you to become.

The military did studies after WW2 [and again after Vietnam] that showed, or proclaimed to show, that a large percentage of infantrymen did NOT fire their weapons in a firefight, or repeatedly aimed improperly. The US military purposely set out to "correct" that behavior [and you can't argue with that. a firefight is a firefight after all] and points with pride to the higher fire and kill efficiency of combat troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I don't know what your experience was like... all I can say about mine is that I understand why tactical nuclear weapons are never under the command of small unit operations-- we'd have nuked the whole world without batting an eye just to be done with it.

[FreeFocus]

So a poor kid enlists, serves four years, and you call him a "sociopath", and then you expect us to somehow build resistance within the military?

Building resistance within the military isn't my strategy, I've never made that argument. If it happens on a small scale, great - of course it helps - but I'm not making it a cornerstone in any type of strategy.

[S.Artesian]

So a poor kid enlists, serves four years, and you call him a "sociopath", and then you expect us to somehow build resistance within the military?


Let's be clear. I wasn't calling anybody a sociopath, I was saying that the training is designed to make one act like a sociopath-- responding without question or thought to the "needs" of the "group." That's one of the points of the training.

All that noble self-sacrifice and camaraderie shite, and I do mean shite, is part of that building of loyalty to the group so one will always act according to its needs. The fact that the "group" is a capitalist killing machine, designed to impose and maintain certain social relations, is, I guess, immaterial for some.

Does the training work? You know it does if you served in the military. You saw it work. Not all the time, not on everyone. But certainly enough to get the job done, the job being killing more of them before they kill more of us before one side or the other runs out of "them" or "us."

Doesn't mean we don't build resistance in the military. Does mean we don't buy into, contribute, engage, spread these bullshit notions of heroism and camaraderie.

[The Douche]

Let's be clear. I wasn't calling anybody a sociopath, I was saying that the training is designed to make one act like a sociopath-- responding without question or thought to the "needs" of the "group." That's one of the points of the training.

All that noble self-sacrifice and camaraderie shite, and I do mean shite, is part of that building of loyalty to the group so one will always act according to its needs. The fact that the "group" is a capitalist killing machine, designed to impose and maintain certain social relations, is, I guess, immaterial for some.

Does the training work? You know it does if you served in the military. You saw it work. Not all the time, not on everyone. But certainly enough to get the job done, the job being killing more of them before they kill more of us before one side or the other runs out of "them" or "us."

Doesn't mean we don't build resistance in the military. Does mean we don't buy into, contribute, engage, spread these bullshit notions of heroism and camaraderie.

Your experience in the british military has nothing to do with the US military. Everytime I see you talk about the military it is absurd, and in no way relates to anything I have experienced in my time. I find it hard to believe it as bad as you make it out to be in your country.

Nobody is spreading any notions of anything here, except moronic ideas of soldiers being brainwashed sociopaths who need to be annihilated. Do soldiers have a special bond and special comraderie not known by many? (especially not known by bourgie middle class students) Fucking a right they do, the time spent together, shared issues, how close they live, and the massive ammount of similarities in their lives, combined with life or death situations creates relationships that are difficult to match.


P.S. Your rantings about placing group before self makes you sound like a right wing nutjob crying about socialism.

[ContrarianLemming]

“My hand was burnt, my eye was sewn up and I had shrapnel in my right leg and arm. But when I woke up in Germany, I was told that my unit were OK because of me. That picked my spirits up.”


This is why I like some soldiers. Solid grasp on friendship.

agreed, i've met some soliders and there some of the most selfless people I know.
One was once chatting with me about far leftist and he said, to my surprise "theres no individualists in a funtioning unit".

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I was never in the military. I have worked as a civilian contract employee as an education consultant. A long, complicated story. I grew up in something of a military family connected w/the US Marines. I grew up w/this stuff. USMC indoctrination is pretty much as described in the Kubrick film. Its cult indoctrination using sexuality and violence. One's personality is destroyed and a new one is created. Its an indoctrination process almost guaranteed to maximize rape and carnage, that's it purpose. The marines and other branches of the "service" are based on a sometimes intense comradely but amoral bonding. The guys "serving" in Iraq or Afghanistan don't see themselves fighting for "democracy", whatever propaganda their subjected to quickly evaporates. They do see themselves fighting to "protect their buddies". This comradeship, of course, has resulted in incalculable destruction for a good chunk of the planet as well as, not surprisingly, very high levels of PTSD for people caught up in this.

He'll have to speak for himself but I believe S. Artesian is American.

[The Douche]

I was never in the military. I have worked as a civilian contract employee as an education consultant. A long, complicated story. I grew up in something of a military family connected w/the US Marines. I grew up w/this stuff. USMC indoctrination is pretty much as described in the Kubrick film. Its cult indoctrination using sexuality and violence. One's personality is destroyed and a new one is created. Its an indoctrination process almost guaranteed to maximize rape and carnage, that's it purpose. The marines and other branches of the "service" are based on a sometimes intense comradely but amoral bonding. The guys "serving" in Iraq or Afghanistan don't see themselves fighting for "democracy", whatever propaganda their subjected to quickly evaporates. They do see themselves fighting to "protect their buddies". This comradeship, of course, has resulted in incalculable destruction for a good chunk of the planet as well as, not surprisingly, very high levels of PTSD for people caught up in this.

He'll have to speak for himself but I believe S. Artesian is American.

I seem to recall him being a british soldier. His ideas about the military simply do not apply in the US.


I just get absurdly tired of seeing this "soldiers are the enemy" shit get rambled on all over this website which is largely middle class and well educated. Soldiers are told that civilians and those against the war hate them, the language and childish politics I see promoted on here all to often, confirm those lies and turn them into the truth in the minds of the soldiers and so then what can they do? The left "hates them", so how can they join the left? They have no option but to retreat further into the delusion and propaganda that they're taught.

[S.Artesian]

I deleted the response I originally posted because I think the discussion is just too ridiculous to continue. I called no one a sociopath and I have never referred to, considered, or treated an enlisted military person as an enemy. Officers are something else, and that something else is the class enemy.

Military training is designed to make the individuals surrender critical individual judgment, to cede that judgment to the officer, to the commander no matter what the command is, even without a command being issued. That's how units function. That's what builds the "noble" self-sacrifice.

This mythology of a "band of brothers" has been around a long time, probably longer than Shakespeare's Henry V where in the St. Crispen's day speech the phrase first got air time. Big deal. Doesn't matter. The purpose of the military is to kill; to seek out, close with, engage, and destroy the enemy... and the enemy is any body and everybody you're told it is.

Look a bit closely into the number of suicides, murders, assaults by returning combat veterans upon members of their own families. The situation at Ft. Carson, I believe, reached such proportions that the army couldn't cover it up. Those incidents tell us all we need to know about the special experiences, the bonding, the camaraderie built by engaging in combat. It's dipped in blood.

As I stated earlier to the comrade, he should stand by his friend, because he's a friend and a human being who needs assistance. What he doesn't need is glorification of the experience of camaraderie developed in killing people in the service of US imperialism.

CMoney can keep on keepin' on about how that doesn't match up with his experience, but it certainly does match up with the experience of those soldiers at Fort Carson.

[The Douche]

How dare you. I am diagnosed with PTSD because of my time in Iraq. I completely disagree with everything you say about the military creating some sort of automatons, obviously I have the ability to think for myself, as do the vast majority of soldiers I know. And many of them are friends of mine who will be friends until the day I die, and I would do anything for them. Regardless of how wrong thier politics may be, and how much we may butt heads.

Every facet of our world is designed to condition us, school, church, entertainment, work, its all designed to make people follow the rules, do what they're told, and not ask questions. That's what we're fighting against, and we don't fucking do it by demeaning them.

[Bijan Li Causi X]

i have relatives in the army and i hope they die, fucking imperialist scum

up the resistance, any soldier i meet, i wish death upon, fucking class sellouts

what about the afghan babies anihilated, fuck your friend, i hope he dies, solidarity with the wretched of the earth

[The Douche]

i have relatives in the army and i hope they die, fucking imperialist scum

up the resistance, any soldier i meet, i wish death upon, fucking class sellouts

what about the afghan babies anihilated, fuck your friend, i hope he dies, solidarity with the wretched of the earth

Come kill me then.:rolleyes:

[this is an invasion]

I don't get the high standards Leftists place on soldiers. I don't know how many times I've seen or heard someone say "I'll support the troops when they shoot their officers." Yeah, well I'll support the workers when they shoot their bosses.

It's so stupid, and it's not like workers don't recreate the same system of capitalism that soldiers do.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

i have relatives in the army and i hope they die, fucking imperialist scum

up the resistance, any soldier i meet, i wish death upon, fucking class sellouts

what about the afghan babies anihilated, fuck your friend, i hope he dies, solidarity with the wretched of the earth

Not helpful. Are you Sanford Socialist/BuddhaSamuraiCadre by any chance? Your outlook and writing style is very similar.

[this is an invasion]

i have relatives in the army and i hope they die, fucking imperialist scum

up the resistance, any soldier i meet, i wish death upon, fucking class sellouts

what about the afghan babies anihilated, fuck your friend, i hope he dies, solidarity with the wretched of the earth

I really, [i]really[/] doubt that you tell every soldier you meet that you wish death upon them.

I think you're just acting hard cause you can do that on the internet. And again, why do you continue to support workers that just recreate capitalism instead of rising up?

idiot

[Bijan Li Causi X]

workersdont rape peasants, or napalm schools, or use depleted uranium, or laugh about killing "sandniggers" or carry a ring of vietnamese ears as a trophy, or laugh at bombs dropped on civillians or torture people and refuse them a trial orkill without question or act liked depraved savage uncle toms.

[The Douche]

workersdont rape peasants, or napalm schools, or use depleted uranium, or laugh about killing "sandniggers" or carry a ring of vietnamese ears as a trophy, or laugh at bombs dropped on civillians or torture people and refuse them a trial orkill without question or act liked depraved savage uncle toms.

I've never done any of those things.

[this is an invasion]

workersdont rape peasants, or napalm schools, or use depleted uranium, or laugh about killing "sandniggers" or carry a ring of vietnamese ears as a trophy, or laugh at bombs dropped on civillians or torture people and refuse them a trial orkill without question or act liked depraved savage uncle toms.

Who do you think made the tools that allow some soldiers to shoot at people or drop bombs on villages?

Workers D:

There are workers that rape people too, and kill people of color and think it's awesome.

[S.Artesian]

How dare you. I am diagnosed with PTSD because of my time in Iraq. I completely disagree with everything you say about the military creating some sort of automatons, obviously I have the ability to think for myself, as do the vast majority of soldiers I know. And many of them are friends of mine who will be friends until the day I die, and I would do anything for them. Regardless of how wrong thier politics may be, and how much we may butt heads.

Every facet of our world is designed to condition us, school, church, entertainment, work, its all designed to make people follow the rules, do what they're told, and not ask questions. That's what we're fighting against, and we don't fucking do it by demeaning them.

How dare I what? I haven't demeaned anyone. I was diagnosed with PTSD myself. Took years of therapy, some medication, and an all- consuming high pressure 24/7 job to teach me how to control it. I hope you're getting the help you need. But you really have to read what is being said before reacting.

You said I called grunts sociopaths-- never did. I said the training is designed to make one act like a sociopath-- deferring critical judgment to the needs, sanctions of the group; absorbing those needs so you can react without hesitation; without even acknowledging your own critical judgment. I said the camaraderie that develops is sold somehow as ennobling the entire experience. It does not. The entire experience is about killing people. That's what produces the PTSD.

You indicated that I considered soldiers an "enemy." Never said that. I consider ennobling the functions of the soldier in serving class relations of capital the enemy, I consider the propaganda about self-sacrifice and camaraderie in serving those class relations the enemy.

The camaraderie and self-sacrifice that so many find so noble can be felt, and has been felt by any group in conditions of or equivalent to close quarters combat. Hell, members of the SS, of the Aryan Brotherhood talk about their camaraderie, their closeness, their willingness to sacrifice for the others in their brotherhood.

Nobody, at least not I, has said that soldiers don't retain an ability to think for themselves-- but the training, the conditioning is to respond to command, to anticipate the command, to react to the command, to "think" the command. Again it's that conflict that produces the PTSD.

Nobody, at least not I, condemns any returning rank and file soldier as an "unthinking monster." What we condemn is the propaganda that denies that the emotional currency of camaraderie is used to "purchase" the ability of the bourgeoisie to still keep sending off people to serve their interests in exploitation and oppression.

If you can't understand that, can't make those distinctions... well like I said, there's no point in continuing the conversation. Period.

And if it will make it more clear to you, FWIW I think Bijan or whatever his name is, is full of shit.

[Jazzratt]

workersdont rape peasants, or napalm schools, or use depleted uranium, or laugh about killing "sandniggers" or carry a ring of vietnamese ears as a trophy, or laugh at bombs dropped on civillians or torture people and refuse them a trial orkill without question or act liked depraved savage uncle toms. I can see you had difficulty typing that coherently through your tears of righteous fury. Anyway, not every single soldier (or even the majority) behaves like that you fucking nob.

[S.Artesian]

Hey, you know what's weird? Bijan thinks I'm white. Cmoney thinks I'm British. Bizarre, huh?

[The Douche]

How dare I what? I haven't demeaned anyone. I was diagnosed with PTSD myself. Took years of therapy, some medication, and an all- consuming high pressure 24/7 job to teach me how to control it. I hope you're getting the help you need. But you really have to read what is being said before reacting.

Maybe you don't think you have but I do think you have been demeaning. Not to mention that I almost constantly engaged on this site in self defense because of my status as a solider. At least once a week I have to enter into the same tired arguement about how soldiers are viewed with arrogant children like Bijan.


You said I called grunts sociopaths-- never did. I said the training is designed to make one act like a sociopath

Come now, I won't play these semantic games. "You are a sociopath" vs "You act like a sociopath", the difference is not worth noting. I don't see how one could act like a sociopath and not be one.


deferring critical judgment to the needs, sanctions of the group; absorbing those needs so you can react without hesitation; without even acknowledging your own critical judgment.

I do not think that is the goal of training, in fact, no soldier that works that way has ever lasted in the units I've been in, a soldier who can't make descsions for himself is useless. Knowing the job to spots above you and all that jazz? I don't know about you, but there have been plenty of times where I've pointed out errors and made suggestions that get implemented to my platoon leaders and platoon sergeant.


I said the camaraderie that develops is sold somehow as ennobling the entire experience. It does not.

I don't think we are enobling the comraderie, we're acknowledging it as an interesting and valuable social development. (those in shared struggle develop an camraderie and closeness unknown by many)


The entire experience is about killing people. That's what produces the PTSD.

To my knowledge, and I firmly believe, I did not kill anybody. That is not where my PTSD came from.


You indicated that I considered soldiers an "enemy." Never said that. I consider ennobling the functions of the soldier in serving class relations of capital the enemy, I consider the propaganda about self-sacrifice and camaraderie in serving those class relations the enemy.

Well thats not whats going on.


Nobody, at least not I, has said that soldiers don't retain an ability to think for themselves-- but the training, the conditioning is to respond to command, to anticipate the command, to react to the command, to "think" the command.

How can you contradict yourself like this?


Cmoney thinks I'm British. Bizarre, huh?

I think I have you confused with another poster, there was an ex-british soldier who made similar arguements to yours.