N.W.O, Illuminati and Free Masons

[Joseph_McCarthy]

I haven't posted here before, and I hope this is the right place for this.

Anyway...

I've always wondered what socialists,communists, etc. think in regards to the the conspiracy theories about the N.W.O., the Illuminati and Free Masons. In sociology I learned that Marxists believe in the 'Bourgeoisie' and I believe that the 'Bourgeoisie' are the people who control the world.

But do socialists,communists, etc. actually beleive in any of these conspiracies, I beleive that freemasons are targeted by religious groups with no evidence of them having control of the world much like the Jews.

[Nolan]

Bullshit.

[RED DAVE]

Double bullshit. And always serving a right-wing political agenda.

RED DAVE

[Joseph_McCarthy]

I'm glad there are some people who agree with me :laugh:

[theblackmask]

Capitalists conspiring behind closed doors is scarier than Freemasons any day.

[The Guy]

I don't know exactly if any of these conspiracies are true, but I certainly believe that capitalism is more fallacious that it seems. I believe there is a hidden truth, but, with all these distractions, we'll never discover it. If we're born just to work, there'll obviously be implications to keep us quiet. That's why we have communism though to re-write the wrongs.


Capitalists conspiring behind closed doors is scarier than Freemasons any day.

Second.

[Adil3tr]

The Bourgeoisie are the rich. We're not conspiracy theorists because we're not batshit crazy. Our view of capitalism doesn't revolve around a conspiracy, its just a flawed and outdated system built on privilege and fueled by greed.

We don't believe any of that conspiracy shit.

[AK]

See look, us anarchists are members of the Illuminati: http://meetilluminatimembers.com/IlluminatiPyramid_001.jpg

This has been said in another thread, but I feel it should be repeated here:

In all seriousness, there's no 'conspiracy'. There's just capitalism as a dominant socio-economic order doing what it is meant to do: exploit. All 'conspiracies', secret wars, coups d'etat,etc. are all byproducts.

[RadioRaheem84]

There is no consistency in conspiracies. The logic of the proponents will just drive any sensible person mad.

[durhamleft]

I've seen some Marxists refer to "New World Order" as meaning the financial elites who in effect control society, and that as a view I can sympathise with. I mean, the idea they "run the world" is stupid to me, but I so believe that the richest people in society, the true financial elite, probably control Government policy as much as the Governments themselves do...

[The Vegan Marxist]

I agree with everyone else, straight up bullshit! But, one must understand the term "New World Order" as well. I tend to use this term at times, not as the conspiracy theorists use it, but rather on how it's a term that everyone is familiar with when it comes to globalization. The term "NWO" started out as defining a global imperialist movement, in which were run by the few in power, in order to economically destabilize legitimate governments & create economical & political relations between the imperialists & those governments they fund. Though, the conspiracy theorists tend to view the "NWO" as some global elite who are on a conspiracy rampage with the "illuminati" in order to depopulate the world, take it over with machines, & create a global government. Just plain out bullshit!

[StoneFrog]

i've always kinda thought its a natural thing to arise in a country which is full of anti socialist propaganda which convinces the people capitalism is the right way. But the people still feel that there is something wrong, so ofc conspiracy theories will arise. All the years of being drilled with capitalism is the best and yet everything is still wrong, they look to find the answer but they're still working with in their illusion of capitalism being the right thing.

[PilesOfDeadNazis]

Conspiacy theorists are fun to giggle at, but they shouldn't be taken seriously. Like someone has mentioned, it's all far-Right lunatics tring to point even more fingers at the 'evils' of the world like Internationalism and any form of government funding.

The most radical of these nuts go as far as to say things like public education and public roads(fucking roads!) are all inter-connected in this massive plot to enslave those poor Conservatives.

Kent Hovind is hilarious...

[durhamleft]

There are some very left wing people I've seen talk of a New World Order, saying it is a symptom of the evil of capitalism, I'll leave it at that.

[Qayin]

There are some very left wing people I've seen talk of a New World Order, saying it is a symptom of the evil of capitalism, I'll leave it at that.

Okay, but its not. There is no fucking new world order, no sensible "left wing" person believes in that shit.

[RadioRaheem84]

I mean how sensible is it to think that since the fall of the wall, neo-liberalism has ransacked the world, dropping barriers down like dominoes, liberalizing economies, capital having total reign, crazy border busting free trade agreements, etc. and all of this is "socialism"?

People see the consolidation of wealth by the few, the centralization of the means of production in the hands of the few, and the cohesive arm of the state growing by leaps and bounds to protect this status, yet people see this as "socialism"?

It makes no sense. Absolutely no sense. How can de-regulations be tied to socialism? How can outsourcing and capital flight be tied to socialism? How can huge corporations having unlimited control over national sovereignty be socialist?

Lewis Black moment: It doesn't make sense! It doesn't make any goddamn sense! :cursing:

[Invincible Summer]

Conspiracy theories just seem to be an internalization of "Socialism is bad!" yet realizing "But things are wrong with the world" and somehow warping into the bizarre "It must be some monolithic shadow organization consisting of Jews, Reptile-space-aliens, and people who like funny handshakes!"

[IllicitPopsicle]

I believe this goes in here nicely.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/conspiracy_theories.png

[mollymae]

The Illuminati and stuff is certainly all bullshit. But I generally do accept that there is a handful of people in this world that are very, very powerful, and do favors for each other at the expense of the average person. That doesn't mean "It's the new world order ZOMG!!1" - it just indicates inequality.

[TheUnknownEntity]

:confused:

Why is everyone here so arrogantly closed-minded? What I don't get is that the left-wing opposes Zionism, and yet, they cannot, under any circumstances, believe that the Zionists that practically own our collective Western Governments don't have any sinister plans or motives.

There is a lot of evidence for the existence of a Zionist, ruling elite (like the Bilderberg group), and also there is a lot of evidence that they are planning a New World Order that involves drastic global depopulation, globalism and the formation of a One World Government, and other activities.

How do you all know, for sure, that it is all bullshit? Marx himself practically stated that this was going to occur;

'In this new organization of Humanity, the children of Israel, scattered to all corners of the earth, will be transformed, with no opposition at all, into the ruling class, above all, they will gather the working masses under their exclusive control. The Governments of the nations composing the future universal Republic will fall, without force, into the hands of the Israelites, thanks to the victory of the proletariat. Private property then will be eliminated by governments of the Jewish race who will administer, everywhere, the public funds.

Thus the promise of the Talmud will be realized, according to which, when the time of the Messiah comes, the Jews will possess all the riches of all the peoples of the earth.'

[RadioRaheem84]

:confused: um.....ok....

[Invincible Summer]

*facepalm*


This needs to be closed.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

First of all even a superficial knowledge of current events will how that our planet is not a democracy. Decisions are not made by and to benefit the population as a whole. There is a ruling class. This should be obvious.

The ruling class-CEOs, major investors, national leaders, people who control large sums of money, are a numerically tiny percentage of the world's population. These people meet in a variety of forums. A few of these are publicized and are partially open to the media. This would include the Davos Forum, the G20 and G8 meetings and other such events. Other ruling class forums are not as open. These might include meetings of central bankers, the Trilateral Commission, the IMF and World Bank. There are organizations which are even more secretive like the Bilderberg group and others.

This isn't a conspiracy. They are merely different venues for the ruling classes to meet. Its the dynamics of capitalism which control the world, not the sinister machinations of murky organizations and semi-mythical secret societies dating back to the middle ages.

There is a ruling class. Following the financial crisis its apparent they do not have control over events themselves.

Conspiracy theories are dis empowering. Its possible the JFK assassination was a "conspiracy". JFK may have been bumped off not because he was some kind of crusading leftist, his policies were reactionary, but because the ruling class judged him as an incompetent loose cannon.Whether or not this assassination was planned doesn't really matter. The ruling class has many ways of carrying out decisions. Extra-legal interventions happen constantly. Its the structure of capitalism itself, the fact that there is a ruling class, which has to be changed.

There is no "Zionist conspiracy" which runs the world. This is absurd and smacks of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" hoax which did so much damage throughout the 20th century. Israel has always carried out the mission of the US ruling class. When these interests collide, as in the Pollard spy case, the US apparatus sets clear limits.

[TheUnknownEntity]

First of all even a superficial knowledge of current events will how that our planet is not a democracy. Decisions are not made by and to benefit the population as a whole. There is a ruling class. This should be obvious.

The ruling class-CEOs, major investors, national leaders, people who control large sums of money, are a numerically tiny percentage of the world's population. These people meet in a variety of forums. A few of these are publicized and are partially open to the media. This would include the Davos Forum, the G20 and G8 meetings and other such events. Other ruling class forums are not as open. These might include meetings of central bankers, the Trilateral Commission, the IMF and World Bank. There are organizations which are even more secretive like the Bilderberg group and others.

This isn't a conspiracy. They are merely different venues for the ruling classes to meet. Its the dynamics of capitalism which control the world, not the sinister machinations of murky organizations and semi-mythical secret societies dating back to the middle ages.

There is a ruling class. Following the financial crisis its apparent they do not have control over events themselves.

Conspiracy theories are dis empowering. Its possible the JFK assassination was a "conspiracy". JFK may have been bumped off not because he was some kind of crusading leftist, his policies were reactionary, but because the ruling class judged him as an incompetent loose cannon.Whether or not this assassination was planned doesn't really matter. The ruling class has many ways of carrying out decisions. Extra-legal interventions happen constantly. Its the structure of capitalism itself, the fact that there is a ruling class, which has to be changed.

There is no "Zionist conspiracy" which runs the world. This is absurd and smacks of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" hoax which did so much damage throughout the 20th century. Israel has always carried out the mission of the US ruling class. When these interests collide, as in the Pollard spy case, the US apparatus sets clear limits.

So it is just a coincidence that the majority of the ruling class and the politicians are Jewish?

To me, it seems that Western nations serve Israeli interests, not the other way around. Why else are we fighting the pointless conflicts in the Middle East? For profit? Sure, but also to fight the Arabs for the Israel.

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

Is there a chance that there could some oligarchial group rising to take over the world under the form of a NWO? Yeah... but the chance of it is the same as a snow ball's chance in a fiery furnace...

[Lenina Rosenweg]

This is completely, utterly, totally wrong.Unfortunately I actually do get this argument, or versions of it, a lot, even from a few Jewish people. this thread will be closed soon but I hope it will stay open long enough to tear this to shreds. I need the practice.




So it is just a coincidence that the majority of the ruling class and the politicians are Jewish?

Not true at all. There isn't a conspiracy by a single ethnic group. Its the dynamics of capitalism. The "percentage of Jews" in the ruling class is tiny. You quote Che in your sig? What did he stand for as a revolutionary? It wasn't racism. If you know anything about a left critique of capitalism you will know that any form of racism , including anti-semitism, is and has been regressive and highly destructive to the world.Anti-semitism sucks, simple as that.


To me, it seems that Western nations serve Israeli interests, not the other way around. Why else are we fighting the pointless conflicts in the Middle East? For profit? Sure, but also to fight the Arabs for the Israel.

This is ahistorical. The motives include control of the oil supply, preservation of US global hegemony, the "Great Game" directed against China, and the need of capitalism to force a destructive deflation to enable continued capital accumulation.

[TheUnknownEntity]

Is there a chance that there could some oligarchial group rising to take over the world under the form of a NWO? Yeah... but the chance of it is the same as a snow ball's chance in a fiery furnace...

Are we not already seeing it in action? The widening gap between rich and poor, the increasing eradication of the middle-classes, the international bankers that answer to no-one, the spectacular loss of freedom, privacy and civil liberties, the repression of 'dissenters', the media censorship, the protection of Israel and their atrocities... they are already on the way to creating the New World Order.

Is it really that hard to imagine?

[TheUnknownEntity]

This is completely, utterly, totally wrong.Unfortunately I actually do get this argument, or versions of it, a lot, even from a few Jewish people. this thread will be closed soon but I hope it will stay open long enough to tear this to shreds. I need the practice.





Not true at all. There isn't a conspiracy by a single ethnic group. Its the dynamics of capitalism. The "percentage of Jews" in the ruling class is tiny. You quote Che in your sig? What did he stand for as a revolutionary? It wasn't racism. If you know anything about a left critique of capitalism you will know that any form of racism , including anti-semitism, is and has been regressive and highly destructive to the world.Anti-semitism sucks, simple as that.


This is ahistorical. The motives include control of the oil supply, preservation of US global hegemony, the "Great Game" directed against China, and the need of capitalism to force a destructive deflation to enable continued capital accumulation.

Wow... you really tore my argument to shreds... :lol:

It isn't anti-Semitism. It's anti-Zionism. Zionists are in control of the U.S Government, and the 'ruling classes' are almost exclusively either Jews or Zionist apologists...

You can be an anti-Zionist Jew, y'know... I am.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Are we not already seeing it in action? The widening gap between rich and poor, the increasing eradication of the middle-classes, the international bankers that answer to no-one, the spectacular loss of freedom, privacy and civil liberties, the repression of 'dissenters', the media censorship, the protection of Israel and their atrocities... they are already on the way to creating the New World Order.

Is it really that hard to imagine?

Have you ever head of a body of thought called "Marxism". Yeah, this German-Jewish bloke who lived in London 140 something years ago. He came up with an amazing critique and analysis of capitalism. This has been further developed by many people since then. You should check it out sometime, it'll go far in answering your questions.

[TheUnknownEntity]

Have you ever head of a body of thought called "Marxism". Yeah, this German-Jewish bloke who lived in London 140 something years ago. He came up with an amazing critique and analysis of capitalism. This has been further developed by many people since then. You should check it out sometime, it'll go far in answering your questions.

The Zionist Jews have profited disproportionately from capitalism. Have you ever heard of a working-class Jew? I don't know many...

They are also the most 'racist' people you will ever meet, to the point of wishing all 'Goyim' dead and slaughtering completely innocent Palestinian children.

[RadioRaheem84]

All the bat shit crazy conspiracies that are leftover vestiges from the John Birch Society in it's hey day are ruining the perfectly rational discussion about the dynamics of capitalism governing most of the world.

UknownEntity, it's a paradigm that has a hold of the world. All of those organizations that you think Jews run are just a result of this paradigm; the dynamics of capitalism. They may have connections to one another but they're not all in agreement and do not have ultimate control over anything. They're losing control of the financial pyramid for pete's sake.

[RadioRaheem84]

The Zionist Jews have profited disproportionately from capitalism. Have you ever heard of a working-class Jew? I don't know many...

They are also the most 'racist' people you will ever meet, to the point of wishing all 'Goyim' dead and slaughtering completely innocent Palestinian children.

Ban this anti-semitic fucker. NOW.

[TheUnknownEntity]

Ban this anti-semitic fucker. NOW.

So i'm an anti-Semitic Jew? :laugh:

Try an anti-Zionist, shit-for-brains. :rolleyes:

[Lenina Rosenweg]

So it is just a coincidence that the majority of the ruling class and the politicians are Jewish?

To me, it seems that Western nations serve Israeli interests, not the other way around. Why else are we fighting the pointless conflicts in the Middle East? For profit? Sure, but also to fight the Arabs for the Israel.



You can be an anti-Zionist Jew, y'know... I am.


I don't know what country you're from. The Jewish population of the US is around 3%. The Jewish population of the UK is somewhat less. I don't know about western Europe. There are more Jews in France, less in other countries.

Depending on how its defined, the US ruling class is at the most 5% of the population, and by a narrower definition around 1%.

So most of the tiny ruling class are Jews? This would mean of course that your relatives, including close family members,and probably you yourself, are running the world. How'd you end up as a fan of Che? You must be the black sheep of your family.

A Marxist analysis does not rely on conspiracy theories. The Marxist method uses a systemic critique of capitalism based on material conditions and the balance of the class struggle.

Its erroneous to say that one particular ethnic group can run the world. Things don't work that way.

What is a Jew? This term itself is difficult to define and there's been a huge debate over it.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I strongly suspect that the "Unknown Entity" is a troll who drifted over from Stormfront.

[BuddhaInBabylon]

first post. Excuse my newness to this place.
I think the majority of discussion concerning conspiracy theories of all nature, but in particular this zionist/nwo/illuminati/trilateral,bilderberg,worldbank, elitist, thing....gets out of hand. I think that the scope of what people think they are really facing gets blurred. You have to focus back in on what exactly is going on with what you think you see. For the most part, like many of the comrades here are saying, the current system of capitalism that plagues our planet is the root of all the other weeds. In other words, if you look hard enough at the evils of any one group of powerful entities you will lose sight of the underlying fact that that particular entity somewhere along the line put profits before people. Take for example corporate america. I use this example because it's close to my heart. Corporations, be they pharmaceutical(GSK, AstraZeneca), fossil fuel(insert here), retail(wal-mart), agricultural (monsanto), believe in capital. they believe in power. they believe in promoting greed for the betterment of few, at the expense of many. That's as simple as it needs to be. If you can view the state of things in the world in this simple way, i think you will save yourself some headaches, because white owls and all seeing eyes are in the end, distractions from a greater evil that needs to be destroyed utterly and removed from the face of the earth. Everything else is just indulgence in intellectualism in my humble view.

[TheUnknownEntity]

I don't know what country you're from. The Jewish population of the US is around 3%. The Jewish population of the UK is somewhat less. I don't know about western Europe. There are more Jews in France, less in other countries.

Depending on how its defined, the US ruling class is at the most 5% of the population, and by a narrower definition around 1%.

So most of the tiny ruling class are Jews? This would mean of course that your relatives, including close family members, are running the world. How'd you end up as a fan of Che? You must be the black sheep of your family.
Smilies
A Marxist analysis does not rely on conspiracy theories. The Marxist method uses a systemic critique of capitalism based on material conditions and the balance of the class struggle.

Its erroneous to say that one particular ethnic group can run the world. Things don't work that way.

What is a Jew? This term itself is difficult to define and there's been an enormous amount over it.

Not all Jews are Zionists. But, in real-life, we have to look at trends rather than individual cases, don't we? And the fact of it is that Jews are disproportionately represented at the higher levels of Government, education, media, banking and financial institutions etc. You only have to look at the names, though most of them openly admit to either being Zionist Jews or Gentiles that are loyal to Israel/Israeli interests.

[TheUnknownEntity]

I strongly suspect that the "Unknown Entity" is a troll who drifted over from Stormfront.

Stormfront is likely a Zionist-affiliated site designed to get the details/record the activities of WN's... a lot of these so-called White Nationalist sites are false-flag/psy-ops by the Zionist elite.

[RadioRaheem84]

Stormfront is likely a Zionist-affiliated site designed to get the details/record the activities of WN's... a lot of these so-called White Nationalist sites are false-flag/psy-ops by the Zionist elite.


How much more bile do we have to read before we ban this troll?

[Dimentio]

I haven't posted here before, and I hope this is the right place for this.

Anyway...

I've always wondered what socialists,communists, etc. think in regards to the the conspiracy theories about the N.W.O., the Illuminati and Free Masons. In sociology I learned that Marxists believe in the 'Bourgeoisie' and I believe that the 'Bourgeoisie' are the people who control the world.

But do socialists,communists, etc. actually beleive in any of these conspiracies, I beleive that freemasons are targeted by religious groups with no evidence of them having control of the world much like the Jews.

The bourgeoisie are not a sinister secret group, but rather people who are unified by certain economic classifications. For example, we could conclude that dogs are unified by common characteristics of being dogs, without all dogs necessarily needing to be a part of some kind of sinister conspiracy.

In general, the beliefs here are that conspiracy theories, namely antisemitism and NWO-Illuminati stuff are caused by idealist notions. My own belief about these theories is that people feel uncertain and are afraid, and in order to make the world understandable and be able to direct their frustrations, they reduce the causes of all their problems down to a secretive evil cabal controlling all things evil. People seems to prefer to have a god, even if that god is malevolent.

[Dimentio]

And where the fuck are all these people coming from?

[Qayin]

Why is everyone here so arrogantly closed-minded? What I don't get is that the left-wing opposes Zionism, and yet, they cannot, under any circumstances, believe that the Zionists that practically own our collective Western Governments don't have any sinister plans or motives.fucking lol'd

Your analysis of Zionism is you think its some sort of secret cabal when its simple neo-colonialist justification. Capital owns America, zionism is widely accepted because of Americas position on Israel not because we are owned by the Israel Government.


There is a lot of evidence for the existence of a Zionist, ruling elite (like the Bilderberg group), and also there is a lot of evidence that they are planning a New World Order that involves drastic global depopulation, globalism and the formation of a One World Government, and other activities.A "ruling elite" are not a conjoined group, they are a social class.

New World Order? We are in that neo-liberal order no need for a "coming of an era of tyranny" paranoia your Alex Jones propaganda spreads, capital has full control since the fall of the USSR. What new order are we getting to? Its a weak rhetorical phrase. That phrase was typically taken out of context and pointed at as some UN communist conspiracy or some stupid shit.Now you bring up Bilderberg...

I have The True Story of The Bilderberg Group: Second Edition by Daniel Estulin, what you can say is the closest thing to a definitive book on Bilderberg, and lots of it is horseshit i regret buying it, it does have some useful information though, primarily in the documents part of the book.

The Bilderberg Group's role is to push or justify zionism, some members may be zionists but primarily Bilderberg is a meeting of 1st world Bourgeoisie from various socio-economic-political establishments(The Press, Military establishments, Various Capitalist Forces such as the IMF/World Bank) and discuss plans for globalization and furthering capitals control, such as when they drew up plans for the Euro and European Union or discuss plans against Iran.

The sad thing about the Bilderberg Group is the Left is to quiet on confronting this group, it allowed the opportunist right wing conspiracists like Alex Jones to take hold of any opposition. I do remember the Greek Communist Party (KKE) did confront the group.


How do you all know, for sure, that it is all bullshit? Marx himself practically stated that this was going to occur;

'In this new organization of Humanity, the children of Israel, scattered to all corners of the earth, will be transformed, with no opposition at all, into the ruling class, above all, they will gather the working masses under their exclusive control. The Governments of the nations composing the future universal Republic will fall, without force, into the hands of the Israelites, thanks to the victory of the proletariat. Private property then will be eliminated by governments of the Jewish race who will administer, everywhere, the public funds.

Thus the promise of the Talmud will be realized, according to which, when the time of the Messiah comes, the Jews will possess all the riches of all the peoples of the earth.'No source, a simple google of the above text leads me to half assed conspiracy sites that discuss the Protocols of the Elders of Zion :laugh:...fucking fail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XrRyqses5U :thumbup1:




The Zionist Jews have profited disproportionately from capitalism. Have you ever heard of a working-class Jew? I don't know many...

They are also the most 'racist' people you will ever meet, to the point of wishing all 'Goyim' dead and slaughtering completely innocent Palestinian children. My best friend half my life in Illinois was a working class Jewish Family.
A good friend who I saw Circa Survive with is Jewish, and a heavy anti-racist.
Racism towards the Palestinians is not just Zionists Christians or Jews its also general hatred towards arabs.



Are we not already seeing it in action? The widening gap between rich and poor, the increasing eradication of the middle-classes, the international bankers that answer to no-one, the spectacular loss of freedom, privacy and civil liberties, the repression of 'dissenters', the media censorship, the protection of Israel and their atrocities... they are already on the way to creating the New World Order.

Is it really that hard to imagine? Thats Capitalism, not a secret agenda. Lets think about this in context. You believe if we destroy this "zionist elite" and leave the system in place there wouldn't be repression or a growing gap between rich and poor? That's fucking ridiculous.
Its the system itself, modern capitalism.

Explain how international banks control us please, its the biggest piece of conspiracist rhetoric ever, That Financial Bourgeois that you call "The Bankers" have us all in chains while those other Bourgeois are good hard working people getting sucked dry. Israel is a colonial state that hosts American interests in the middle east. The lose of "liberty" is due to state repressions protecting capital if anything.

Ban this fucking anti-semite.
Im an anti-zionist but by your rhetoric we know what you mean.

[RebelDog]

How long has the idea that lizards rule the world been around? Was it pre or post V? (the popular tv series of the eighties).

[RadioRaheem84]

The mental gymnastics people go through to keep insisting that it's not the system is remarkable!

[Qayin]

How long has the idea that lizards rule the world been around? Was it pre or post V? (the popular tv series of the eighties).


Either way its gone on for to fucking long. David Icke is a cancer

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I get the "Jews run the world" argument a lot, including from some Jewish people. I strongly disagree with this but its worth it to practice my arguments.

I know a lot of anti-Zionist Jews. There is a myth that there is no Jewish working class. I know quite a few working class Jews.

Jewish immigrants coming to the US worked hard and valued education.These are traits which were (after periods of sometimes intense racism) rewarded by capitalist society.
Jews made an enormous contribution to US and world culture. The list is endless.

I don't know the percentage of Jews in the financial sector. I suspect the stereotype of the Jewish banker is highly exaggerated. There are a lot of Jews in the media. AIPAC and other lobbying groups are politically powerful. Obama was forced to tell everyone what a great guy Netanyahu is, a few weeks after he had relief workers, including an American, murdered.

This is not a Jewish conspiracy. Its important to understand the needs of capital and geopolitics. Israel originally had a rich socialist tradition. Upon Independence the Israeli CP was the single largest party, I believe.

It fit the needs of the US ruling class to maintain overall control over Middle East oil. he US inherited the role of the British Empire. The US cultivated or created medievilistic conservative regimes like Saudi Arabia. An alliance with Israeli became part of this.

Things could have gone in different directions but the ruling class of Israel made the decision to become an adjunct of the US. The socialist institutions and traditions were gradually and then rapidly subverted and destroyed. Basically this is the overall dynamics of global capitalism.

AIPAC is not "the Jews". AIPAC has a somewhat complex, parasitic relationship w/the US ruling class but that small element of the Jewish community metastasized because it fit ruling class needs.

The US media is pro-Israeli. This isn't because its "controlled by Jews" but because of the needs of the ruling class.

There's no Jewish conspiracy running things.

Read "The Holocaust Industry" by Norman Finkelstein. His parents were Auschwitz survivors.

[RED DAVE]

Two Jews, Moshe and Avrahm, as sitting on a park bench together. Moshe notices that Avrahm is reading an antisemitic magazine.

"Avrahm," Moshe asks, why are you reading that shit?

"Simple," Avrahm says. "I look at my life and what do I see? I'm up to my ears in debt; my kids hate me; my wife and I don't get along; my boss doesn't like. Frankly, I'm scared.

"I read this antisemitic stuff, and I find out that all of us Jews are wealthy, happy,. and we run the world!"

TA - DUM - DUM!

RED DAVE

[RadioRaheem84]

Rimshot

[Blackscare]

I, for one, think we should have a thread with the exact same title as this at least once a month, maybe every two weeks. Just to weed out the crazies.

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

lmao! ^ brilliant ideal... mm... maybe we should take bets then on how many crazies will pop up :laugh:

[Joseph_McCarthy]

What's their plan? get rid of the Zionists and then they'll be free? :lol:

[durhamleft]

Okay, but its not. There is no fucking new world order, no sensible "left wing" person believes in that shit.

John Berger is a pretty articulate and sensible Marxist in my opinion, so ;).

[theblackmask]

:confused:
'In this new organization of Humanity, the children of Israel, scattered to all corners of the earth, will be transformed, with no opposition at all, into the ruling class, above all, they will gather the working masses under their exclusive control. The Governments of the nations composing the future universal Republic will fall, without force, into the hands of the Israelites, thanks to the victory of the proletariat. Private property then will be eliminated by governments of the Jewish race who will administer, everywhere, the public funds.

Thus the promise of the Talmud will be realized, according to which, when the time of the Messiah comes, the Jews will possess all the riches of all the peoples of the earth.'

Source?

[jake williams]

First of all even a superficial knowledge of current events will how that our planet is not a democracy. Decisions are not made by and to benefit the population as a whole. There is a ruling class. This should be obvious.
It is really obvious, and that's exactly why people come up with conspiracy theories. Most people basically know that there is a very small very powerful group of people making, in secret, major decisions that effect their lives. That's why they believe conspiracy theories, even crazy ones - the working class is systematically undereducated and in all sorts of ways prevented from understanding the way the world actually works. That the working class accomplishes as much as it does is impressive.


The ruling class-CEOs, major investors, national leaders, people who control large sums of money, are a numerically tiny percentage of the world's population. These people meet in a variety of forums. A few of these are publicized and are partially open to the media. This would include the Davos Forum, the G20 and G8 meetings and other such events. Other ruling class forums are not as open. These might include meetings of central bankers, the Trilateral Commission, the IMF and World Bank. There are organizations which are even more secretive like the Bilderberg group and others.

This isn't a conspiracy. They are merely different venues for the ruling classes to meet.
No, it is a conspiracy. They're conspiring. Your (correct) "theory" that the ruling class meet in a variety of fora to discuss managing the world is a conspiracy theory. It's a fairly complex and sophisticated one, with ample and obvious evidence. None of the participants of, say the Davos Forum, deny that it happens. Nor would they deny that they discuss there their plans to run the world economy. You have a conspiracy and it's obviously correct.

Many other conspiracy theories - for example, that the world is really run by the British monarchy or that it is really run by reptilian shapeshifters - are almost certainly incorrect.


Its the dynamics of capitalism which control the world, not the sinister machinations of murky organizations and semi-mythical secret societies dating back to the middle ages.
The "sinister machinations" aren't separate from the dynamics of capitalism. The everyday decisions made by the ruling class look to most working class people with functioning moral consciences to be pretty sinister. Secret organizations aren't separate from the dynamics of capitalism. The ruling class sets up such organizations to socialize, to make themselves feel more powerful than they actually are, and also to establish business and class contacts to further their personal and their class strength. Much of the contemporary ruling class acquired its strength fairly recently, from the early 20th century in the US to modern billionaires in China, Latin America etc. But there is also a lot of old money, some dynasties going back quite a long time.


There is a ruling class. Following the financial crisis its apparent they do not have control over events themselves.
I think one of the major errors of what we might describe collectively as "most conspiracy theories" is that they grant too much power and success to their conspiring elements. It's generally truer to say that various groups, from Zionists to the CFR and so on, are trying to run the world than that they actually are. Also, there always exists in history class struggle - it never has been the case that one class monolithically determines what happens. But the ruling class is called the ruling class for a reason - it rules the world, however imperfectly. The working class - most people, and most conspiracy theorists - don't.


Conspiracy theories are dis empowering.
If you mean this in the way I've often heard it - that conspiracy theories are bad because they sound so intimidating that they dishearten people - then you could say the same thing about Marxism. The truth is empowering, and false conspiracies thus are disempowering insofar as they're false or misleading, but frankly, the vision of the world most so-called "conspiracy theorists" have is far, far more accurate than the vision of the world most well-educated Western liberals have. The former tend to believe that a small group of wealthy, powerful people make decisions for the vast majority of everyone else, in fact they often even say, for the working class. The latter tend to believe that the industrialized world is mostly populated by the "middle class", with a few very poor people on the bottom, and a few very rich people on top, all together making decisions democratically, and if bad things happen it's because ordinary people are stupid. The former is often painted as irrational, and it isn't. The former is often painted as rational, and it isn't.


There is no "Zionist conspiracy" which runs the world. This is absurd and smacks of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" hoax which did so much damage throughout the 20th century.
False conspiracy theories are intentionally engineered by the ruling class as a way of, basically, covering up their own conspiring. Often, they're engineered specifically so as to disempower the working class, examples being the targetting of Jews, Italians or Communists as secretly ruling the world when those groups were/are heavily involved in working class organizing. In fact, Chomsky has made reference do a declassified CIA document suggesting that the Agency encourage JFK theories as a way of distracting people from actual conspiracies.

If Zionists actually ran the world, a theory to that effect would be good to have. They don't, so we should have a different theory. We should have a theory that the ruling class runs the world, and if folks want to call that a conspiracy theory, then let them.


So it is just a coincidence that the majority of the ruling class and the politicians are Jewish?
It's not the case that the majority of the ruling class is Jewish. In fact, it's not even the case that they form the majority of the Western ruling class (certainly you're not arguing that Jews run Japan? China? India?).

Jews are, however, significantly overrepresented in the Western ruling class, in particular in the top leadership of financial institutions. It's a fact, and trying to deny it is counterproductive - if you're lying about something that's blatantly obvious to anyone who occasionally reads the financial press, people aren't going to trust you. Ethnic Jews (I know very few religious Jews who are prominent in political or economic leadership, even in Israel) are several times overrepresented by population in the US senate. Two of the last five World Bank presidents, and one of the last five IMF presidents, three of the last five US Federal Reserve presidents, and one of the last five US treasury secretary heads have been Jewish. They've also all been white, unless I miscounted. That's just a fact, and that's just what I could dig up in five minutes on Wikipedia. Again, if you try to tell people that it isn't true, I don't know what you're going to expect them to think.

Do you know where else Jews are overrepresented? Palestinian solidarity work. They're disproportionately liberal. They're overrepresented in all kinds of socialist groups and were key in early working class organizing in the United States and Canada - as was mentioned, there certainly are working class people of Jewish and of white origin generally. There's no contradiction between this fact - that almost all Jews have a stake in the strength of the working class, in Israel, in America, in Canada and in Europe - and the fact that there are a higher number of Jews at the peaks of the ruling class than one might expect everything else being equal.

It is also fallacious to count anyone with a Jewish grandparent as Jewish, but not to do the same, with, say Catholics. I wouldn't be surprised if the vast majority of the political and economic leadership of the US had at least one Catholic grandparent or second cousin or whatever.


To me, it seems that Western nations serve Israeli interests, not the other way around. Why else are we fighting the pointless conflicts in the Middle East? For profit? Sure, but also to fight the Arabs for the Israel.
Western countries were virulently anti-Semitic, and anti-Zionist until a few decades ago - around the time that US planners decided that Israel was a strategic ally against Nasserism. So I'm not sure when the "Zionist conspiracy" started, but it would have to have been pretty recent. I don't know of any US policy in favour of Israel that isn't in the interests of the - mostly non-Jewish - US ruling class. That class had an interest in the Iraq War for its own reasons, and the Iraq War substantially decreased Israeli security, not least because while an angered Arab population has absolutely no power to retaliate against the US, they do have some ability to "retaliate" against Israel. And for all the commonly stated reasons, the US (a country of 300 million people and a multi-trillion dollar economy) gains from its strategic "alliance" with the Israeli state (a country of a few million people and a multi-billion dollar economy, and a considerably lower GDP per capita than in the US) - it's a place to test out weapons, it's a massive military base, it's a way to evade congressional sanctions on arms sales eg. to South Africa, etc.

[RadioRaheem84]

Interesting notions jammoe. So you think the ruling classes are little more connected and are consious of each others descisions?

[Jazzhands]

Trash the thread and ban these anti-semitic pigs.

[jake williams]

Interesting notions jammoe. So you think the ruling classes are little more connected and are consious of each others descisions?
Of course they're conscious of each others' decisions to a degree, they have to be. There are massive internal contradictions. There are sections of the ruling class globally that don't all agree - Chinese and American, financial and industrial, and so on. But even if they disagree, they need to be aware of what each other is doing, and they agree on a lot, so they have an interest in coordinating quite a bit.

[IllicitPopsicle]

Trash the thread and ban these anti-semitic pigs.

There was only one antisemitic pig in the thread, and he got b&. Why do you want to close the thread? It's entertainment.

[AK]

So it is just a coincidence that the majority of the ruling class and the politicians are Jewish?

To me, it seems that Western nations serve Israeli interests, not the other way around. Why else are we fighting the pointless conflicts in the Middle East? For profit? Sure, but also to fight the Arabs for the Israel.
We're in the Middle East because of the oilfields and the untapped mineral resources... and presumably also for yet more sources of cheap labour.

[Dimentio]

What's their plan? get rid of the Zionists and then they'll be free? :lol:

Presumably yes.

[Qayin]

John Berger is a pretty articulate and sensible Marxist in my opinion, so
Where does he rant on about the Illuminati?

[durhamleft]

Where does he rant on about the Illuminati?

In "Hold everything dear - dispatches for resistance" he makes several reference to the "New World Order", using the term to describe the big businesses who are manipulating society and Governments.

[Thirsty Crow]

In "Hold everything dear - dispatches for resistance" he makes several reference to the "New World Order", using the term to describe the big businesses who are manipulating society and Governments.
But that is completely different from the conspiracy theorists' use of the term:
one unified world government, sinister plans for control (via I-dunno-which substances consumed I-dunno-how) and systemic depopulation, hereditary political power (David goddamn Icke!) etc. No mention of the profit motive driven business entities (mostly).

[durhamleft]

But that is completely different from the conspiracy theorists' use of the term:
one unified world government, sinister plans for control (via I-dunno-which substances consumed I-dunno-how) and systemic depopulation, hereditary political power (David goddamn Icke!) etc. No mention of the profit motive driven business entities (mostly).

Yes I know it was, but I was dismissed earlier for saying that some leftists used the term New World Order to represent the capitalists controlling the workers...

[Thirsty Crow]

Yes I know it was, but I was dismissed earlier for saying that some leftists used the term New World Order to represent the capitalists controlling the workers...
Oh.
Well, I suppose that the term is not the sole "intellectual property" of conspiracy theories loonies. Indeed, the term reminds me of Toni Negri's "empire" (and I do believe that his analysis is mostly correct).

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Oh.
Well, I suppose that the term is not the sole "intellectual property" of conspiracy theories loonies. Indeed, the term reminds me of Toni Negri's "empire" (and I do believe that his analysis is mostly correct).

Well, the term is also a political slogan for a post-Soviet-bloc globalised capitalist world order, which is about as secret and inconspicuous as a rotting whale on a popular tourist beach. I think that was how it became popularised. The conspiracy nutters like to take it out of the context and apply whatever-they-feel-like to it.

[Dimentio]

Usually, conspiracy theorists are conservative people who already are mystifying institutions as for example the church, the local town and the old hierarchical traditions. Without any material basis to justify their rants, they need to reinvent reality in order to be able to motivate people.

Illuminati is a sinister group which is for women's rights, anti-racism, restrictive gun policies, internationalism, big financial capitalism, communism... basically everything which is frightening a male of privilegied stature in a rural or small-town region.