G20 antics and future tactics

[Ele'ill]

http://news.guelphmercury.com/News/article/664428


Perhaps militant actions don't belong at demonstrations because of the likely hood of arrest and lengthy jail time. The police are beautifully playing 'the public' off the demonstrators all the while playing victim.

This isn't a thread about violence and non-violence. This is a thread about timing.

This could also be a thread about the type of militant actions that work.

[bcbm]

who are you addressing with all these repetitive posts? i don't think anybody here thinks the summit hopping model is particularly successful or useful and the people who engage in it are not going to be swayed by concerns about how the media reacts.

anyway...


Police have received 17,000 still photographs and more than 550 videos from the public. In all, Giroux said, investigators have identified “80 persons of interest” in connection with G20 damage
“Eighty per cent of the photographs come from calls or tips from the public. To this point, the interest is nothing less than remarkable with regards to their assistance,” he said.


if folks keep doing riot shit at demos, they need to start taking a more serious stance against photographers.

[Ele'ill]

who are you addressing with all these repetitive posts?

I'm addressing whoever wants to reply.

My posts are not repetitive in content at all.




i don't think anybody here thinks the summit hopping model is particularly successful or useful and the people who engage in it are not going to be swayed by concerns about how the media reacts.

anyway...

What about 10 years in jail? Would that sway them to act differently or maybe take what they're doing more seriously?








if folks keep doing riot shit at demos, they need to start taking a more serious stance against photographers.


Or maybe reconsider the spectacle all together.

[¿Que?]

What about 10 years in jail? Would that sway them to act differently or maybe take what they're doing more seriously?

If anyone got 10 years for smashing a window, they count as political prisoners to me.

[bcbm]

I'm addressing whoever wants to reply.

My posts are not repetitive in content at all.

you've been touching on this topic constantly for quite awhile. we get it, you think black bloc shit at demos doesn't work.


What about 10 years in jail? Would that sway them to act differently or maybe take what they're doing more seriously?

i would be pretty sincerely surprised if anybody got a decade in jail, but either way no i don't think that you go bloc'd up into the street and smash shit without considering the possibility of jail. all of the sentences handed out after previous events didn't do it.


Or maybe reconsider the spectacle all together.

well no shit, but if we accept that for the forseeable future rioting at summit demos is going to be as much a staple as burned out communist paper sellers, then its worth considering the amount of "free access" allowed the media.

[Ele'ill]

There are environmentalists that got 15-25 in.

It's not because I don't want it to work- it's because it's not working.

Aside from THAT-

what do you think of the rest of the article that's completely unique to the other posts I've made on the topic?

[bcbm]

There are environmentalists that got 15-25 in.

not for anything that happened at a demonstration.


It's not because I don't want it to work- it's because it's not working.

you're assuming the people going into it are doing so with the same purpose as you.


what do you think of the rest of the article that's completely unique to the other posts I've made on the topic?

timing? i think making ourselves openly clear as targets to the state is stupid so the best time for doing this as any sort of "activist" identity would be never.

militant actions that work? its all about subtlety and conveying a simple, clear message that could come from a variety of directions while opening up the possibility for others to act the same.

[meow]

If anyone got 10 years for smashing a window, they count as political prisoners to me.
all prisoners in current system are political. whether that is the drug user or the thief. or the murder or the rapist. when it comes down to it prison is political. laws are political. and the way the system is rigged is that those who go to prison are more likely to be poor and minority.


if folks keep doing riot shit at demos, they need to start taking a more serious stance against photographers.
or maybe start masking up more? this is the purpose of black bloc after all.

one thign the spectical does is allow a certain freedom. my first arrest was at a spectical. i did had this freedom because of the event and people around me. i regret being arrested. if i could tell myself then two things though it would be "mask up properly" and "dont talk to media". thats experience. i dont regret the spectical though. i dont regret going to that event and fighting for what i thought (and think) is correct.

to the op. militant actions are correct at specticals though. they provide an outlet that otherwise many people dont get. you dont smash windows during your normal week. they are in some way empowering. i agree that the spectical work does not change things. but it does provide benefits otherwise to the "movement" (whatever that is).

[jake williams]

http://news.guelphmercury.com/News/article/664428
I know Kelly and those charges could easily be horseshit. They picked her up when the pigs running around with the Olympic torch runner knocked said runner over. They had to drop the charges when about four and a half million photos (it's the Olympics, there were more "journalists" than flag wavers) made it abundantly obvious she was nowhere near the torch (I was closer to it than she was when it fell). They're going after her because she does political organizing in Guelph, not because she may or may not have broken some windows.

And I think that's the important point. It's worth having a real debate about tactics and militancy, but that's really not the immediate concern right now. What we need to worry about is our friends being locked up for political organizing, something that is terrifying.

[Ele'ill]

I know Kelly and those charges could easily be horseshit. They picked her up when the pigs running around with the Olympic torch runner knocked said runner over. They had to drop the charges when about four and a half million photos (it's the Olympics, there were more "journalists" than flag wavers) made it abundantly obvious she was nowhere near the torch (I was closer to it than she was when it fell). They're going after her because she does political organizing in Guelph, not because she may or may not have broken some windows.

And I think that's the important point. It's worth having a real debate about tactics and militancy, but that's really not the immediate concern right now. What we need to worry about is our friends being locked up for political organizing, something that is terrifying.


My understanding- and the photos are available- is that she is seen masked as well as unmasked engaging in property destruction.

The bullshit is likely the 'in excess of $5,000'.

They made it public that there was a female responsible for the majority of the damages.

Wouldn't make sense if she was a serious organizer.


Best of luck to those arrested and to those on the run.

[Ele'ill]

not for anything that happened at a demonstration.


It was for property destruction.




you're assuming the people going into it are doing so with the same purpose as you.


I spend a lot of my time desperately trying to figure out what their purpose is- because all of the legitimate purposes I can think of didn't get accomplished.




timing? i think making ourselves openly clear as targets to the state is stupid so the best time for doing this as any sort of "activist" identity would be never.

So doing this while surrounded by several hundred journalists with cameras as well as several thousand riot police (also with cameras) is a good time?

Some of them were unmasked.

I'd say that part of the movement needs a reality check.






militant actions that work? its all about subtlety and conveying a simple, clear message that could come from a variety of directions while opening up the possibility for others to act the same.


Time can be better spent doing other things.

Not so much in relation to summits but I'm tired of people getting arrested 2-3-4 times for various charges until they simply can't even risk getting arrested for anything without serious jail time.

The get cold feet and then settle down. It's like an initial rush to get arrested enough times up to that point and then they stop being activists- oh but do they ever brag about what they did.

It's fucking bullshit.

[bcbm]

It was for property destruction.

nobody has gotten 25 years for breaking a few windows. the extremely long elf sentences are usually for shit like arson.


I spend a lot of my time desperately trying to figure out what their purpose is- because all of the legitimate purposes I can think of didn't get accomplished.

well they release about a trillion communiques where they say what they imagine to have accomplished.


So doing this while surrounded by several hundred journalists with cameras as well as several thousand riot police (also with cameras) is a good time?

how in god's name did you manage to pull that from what i said?


Time can be better spent doing other things.

your question was "what militant actions work?" not "could time be better spent doing other things or militant actions?"


Not so much in relation to summits but I'm tired of people getting arrested 2-3-4 times for various charges until they simply can't even risk getting arrested for anything without serious jail time.

The get cold feet and then settle down. It's like an initial rush to get arrested enough times up to that point and then they stop being activists- oh but do they ever brag about what they did.

It's fucking bullshit.

i think more people should stop being activists, though it is a bummer when they move on to doing nothing instead of figuring out more positive projects. of course, some never settle down (http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/07/20/middle-aged-anarchists/).

[Ele'ill]

nobody has gotten 25 years for breaking a few windows. the extremely long elf sentences are usually for shit like arson.

Arson like setting police cars on fire?

Due to Green Scare and Green Terrorism laws you can get very significant jail sentences for not doing much more than the typical saboteur direct action missions.




well they release about a trillion communiques where they say what they imagine to have accomplished.

To be honest with you the communiques after demonstration actions in the United States are generally over extended and full of long winded theory that doesn't add up.

Perhaps you could link an official communique from an indymedia site and I'll tell you what I think. It would be easier to use an example.





how in god's name did you manage to pull that from what i said?

You said-


timing? i think making ourselves openly clear as targets to the state is stupid so the best time for doing this as any sort of "activist" identity would be never.

I made a reference to timing in two other threads about this as well as this one if i'm not mistaken. I figured you were criticizing my comments.


your question was "what militant actions work?" not "could time be better spent doing other things or militant actions?"

Without subjecting myself to a breach of security culture- reread.




i think more people should stop being activists, though it is a bummer when they move on to doing nothing instead of figuring out more positive projects. of course, some never settle down (http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/07/20/middle-aged-anarchists/).

I haven't read the article in that link yet but I'll say it isn't about settling down due to age- there are 18-30 year olds that won't even go to demonstrations and won't even organize because they spent their younger years breaking windows and are now afraid of that next arrest putting them in bracelets.

Fucking do something significant to earn that fear- or buck up and push.

[Ele'ill]

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2010/07/401126.shtml


Those are fairly serious charges and I'm not talking about the parole violations.

[this is an invasion]

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2010/07/401126.shtml


Those are fairly serious charges and I'm not talking about the parole violations.

That wasn't a summit.

And most of those charges will probably be dropped or reduced.

[bcbm]

Arson like setting police cars on fire?

no like setting a building on fire.


Due to Green Scare and Green Terrorism laws you can get very significant jail sentences for not doing much more than the typical saboteur direct action missions.

if the rnc is a guide for future us prosecutions, the green scare isn't having much of an effect on summit protest sentences.


To be honest with you the communiques after demonstration actions in the United States are generally over extended and full of long winded theory that doesn't add up.

Perhaps you could link an official communique from an indymedia site and I'll tell you what I think. It would be easier to use an example.

i said there are plenty of communiques where they justify their shit, not plenty of communiques i think make sense and present a good argument why doing bullshit isn't bullshit.


You said-

I made a reference to timing in two other threads about this as well as this one if i'm not mistaken. I figured you were criticizing my comments.

Without subjecting myself to a breach of security culture- reread.


This is a thread about timing.

This could also be a thread about the type of militant actions that work.


I haven't read the article in that link yet but I'll say it isn't about settling down due to age- there are 18-30 year olds that won't even go to demonstrations and won't even organize because they spent their younger years breaking windows and are now afraid of that next arrest putting them in bracelets.

and vice versa. maybe read the article before commenting "on it?"


Fucking do something significant to earn that fear- or buck up and push.

sounds dumb

[nuisance]

http://anokchan.com/b/src/127935787563.jpg

[RedLaw]

It amazes me how so many in the media and many people in general seem
surprised at the events that occur at these summits.
I mean what happens at these summits is exactly what can be expected to
happen and all sides should full well know the score.
The police show up in mass force and with ever greater ferocity attempt to
quell whatever resistance the protesters manage to put forth.
The violent and destructive anarchist element within the protest side show
up as well and do their thing breaking windows, damaging property and
yell and scream when the imprint from a police boot ends up on the side of
their face.
My point is that both sides should well know what to expect and that these
clashes are more and more destructive in an escalating fashion. No one at
all should be in the least surprised at this.
The more carnage and burning police cruisers the 'black bloc' can manage
is met by more brutal force,strategy and abuse of powers by the cops.
And what really is accomplished? What happens at the next one in France
is likely to bring more of the expected. More black garbed youth who are
determined to provide maximun disruption and more iron-clad will on the
part of the police to supress them...which should be no surprise to anyone.

[Ele'ill]

no like setting a building on fire.

Arson is Arson.




if the rnc is a guide for future us prosecutions, the green scare isn't having much of an effect on summit protest sentences.

They're going to create laws against various summit tactics just as they created 'green scare' terrorism laws.




i said there are plenty of communiques where they justify their shit, not plenty of communiques i think make sense and present a good argument why doing bullshit isn't bullshit.

Justification usually requires making sense and the presentation of good arguments.

You can still post an example if you want.










and vice versa. maybe read the article before commenting "on it?"

I was busy at the time- I will read the article after this post and comment on it here in this thread.


sounds dumb

I would never compare past demonstration tactics with an ELF action as ELF actions are genuine direct action missions.

We've already decided and agreed that demonstration type property destruction doesn't cause monetary damage to corporations.

The reasons you still advocate current trend property destruction is because you feel it will send a message to the corporations and to the city. The city and the corporations aren't worried about money (as we've already decided) what they're worried about is 'justice' to those that oppose them and the easiest way to round up opposition is to create laws or use already existing laws- the riot police may not be able to handle a black bloc but they can handle (as we've seen time and time again) lockdowns and large groups of people in general (everyone else).

I don't see current property destruction tactics attracting more people to it in a significant amount of time and even if we did see 1000 people breaking 10,000 windows it would all be covered under insurance and replaced within the next day or so.

I don't see this tactic creating growth within the left- I see it making demonstrations more risky and difficult to attend for the average person- who will potentially be forever turned away from action.

[Dimentio]

Get cats.

[Ele'ill]

Get cats.


What?

[bcbm]

Arson is Arson.

burning a police car during a demonstration and burning an suv as an elf action will be treated differently by the law. there are plenty of recent examples to support this- eric mcdavid's case versus the texas two, for one.


They're going to create laws against various summit tactics just as they created 'green scare' terrorism laws.actually they seem to be preferring to stick to conspiracy charges and more banal things. all attempts at integrating terror charges have failed- dave mahoney, rnc 8, etc.


Justification usually requires making sense and the presentation of good arguments.

You can still post an example if you want.there are about a trillion on anarchist news, if you really want to read documents from the black bloc you can find them.


I would never compare past demonstration tactics with an ELF action as ELF actions are genuine direct action missions.many of them are exactly the same as what happens during a demonstration, except carried about by a small group instead of a crowd.


The reasons you still advocate current trend property destruction
i think making ourselves openly clear as targets to the state is stupid so the best time for doing this as any sort of "activist" identity would be never


I don't see current property destruction tactics attracting more people to it in a significant amount of time and even if we did see 1000 people breaking 10,000 windows it would all be covered under insurance and replaced within the next day or so.
We've already decided and agreed that demonstration type property destruction doesn't cause monetary damage to corporations.

if we have already agreed on this why are you still talking about insurance?


I don't see this tactic creating growth within the left- I see it making demonstrations more risky and difficult to attend for the average person- who will potentially be forever turned away from action. oh good, you hadn't made that clear previously.

[theAnarch]

Generally Ive never seen anything productive come out of one these G20 or G 15 or whatever protests.

[Ele'ill]

burning a police car during a demonstration and burning an suv as an elf action will be treated differently by the law. there are plenty of recent examples to support this- eric mcdavid's case versus the texas two, for one.


The reason there are green terrorism laws is perhaps because the tactics used are more affective and actually do strike a blow to their targets. (relax I'm not referring to monetary damages alone)




actually they seem to be preferring to stick to conspiracy charges and more banal things. all attempts at integrating terror charges have failed- dave mahoney, rnc 8, etc.

I understand that mischief charges are usually dropped- or according to that article- the criminal portion of the charge is withdrawn in light of restitution- Given the nature of the crimes and the overwhelming amount of evidence (photos of the accused in the act- some completely unmasked.) they will get pretty steep sentences. Some are facing multiple counts of Mischief over $5,000- one is receiving six counts.

We're not talking about a criminal mischief charge of under $5,000




http://gipfelsoli.org/Repression/8571.html


Criminal Mischief over $5,000 - possible 10 year sentence

Arson - couldn't find anything on it initially.





Link to site breaking down what the charges mean- I'm going to look for other sites as well to get a second opinion.
http://yourbestdefence.blogspot.com/2008/06/defending-criminal-mischief-charges-in.html


there are about a trillion on anarchist news, if you really want to read documents from the black bloc you can find them.

My point was that I've read them and they don't justify anything and if you could find one that does It would be great to post it here.


many of them are exactly the same as what happens during a demonstration, except carried about by a small group instead of a crowd.

No, there's a reason one is considered terrorism by the state and the other is not.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/01/18/article-0-03173B95000005DC-927_468x286.jpg


http://coloradoindependent.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/2008twoelkvailfire.jpg









if we have already agreed on this why are you still talking about insurance?

**Edit

I was repeating to you what we've already agreed on so that it wouldn't relapse back into 'monetary damages' which has happened (not by you) in various threads before. I want to move forward.

We agree it doesn't cause monetary damages.

(I'll present it as a question this time) What does it do? (your response better be something new or else I'm going to have to copy paste my previous post to it)

[bcbm]

The reason there are green terrorism laws is perhaps because the tactics used are more affective and actually do strike a blow to their targets. (relax I'm not referring to monetary damages alone)

to use the example you use later of the vail ski resort, this was later built and, i believe, even bigger than the original. oh and it was covered by insurance. by and large most elf attacks have not "struck a blow" to their targets in any meaningful sense. the campaign against huntingdon life sciences is perhaps the closest to an effective campaign by such activists and it has relied more on traditional protest methods and various economic attacks against the company (via its stock holders) than arson.


I understand that mischief charges are usually dropped- or according to that article- the criminal portion of the charge is withdrawn in light of restitution- Given the nature of the crimes and the overwhelming amount of evidence (photos of the accused in the act- some completely unmasked.) they will get pretty steep sentences. Some are facing multiple counts of Mischief over $5,000- one is receiving six counts.

when charges are initially being filed the preferred method is usually "the more the better" in order to both scare the defendants and to guarantee they will have something that sticks whatever happens once the legal process gets moving. i can't speak to canadian examples, but in similar cases in the us most of the charges will be dropped, especially terrorism ones (this is what you were originally talking about, not mischief), and the defendants will probably be offered a decent plea deal. i'm not aware of any examples from protests were most of the charges have been maintained throughout the legal process and someone has been convicted on all of them.


My point was that I've read them and they don't justify anything and if you could find one that does It would be great to post it here.

as far as i can tell you disagree with the basic premises of most of the people who do those actions so i doubt there is going to be a communique out there that will justify anything in your mind.


No, there's a reason one is considered terrorism by the state and the other is not.

vail is an anomaly as far as elf actions go, especially these days as most of the elf cells have become completely inactive and the ones that remain do minor shit like vandalizing mcdonalds. i was thinking specifically of something like jeff luers burning suv's though- fundamentally not different than burning four cop cars, except for the timing and method. we could also use my earlier example of eric mcdavid versus the texas two- mcdavid is accused of conspiring to bomb a few things under the influence of an fbi informant and for discussing this idea he is currently serving 20 years. the texas two constructed bombs under the influence of an fbi informant and were prepared to attack property and possibly living (police) targets and are currently serving two and four years. get it?


(I'll present it as a question this time) What does it do? (your response better be something new or else I'm going to have to copy paste my previous post to it)

i've answered this question elsewhere. this is what i am talking about with being repetitive. we've already had this discussion several times over the past year, what do you think you're going to get out of it now that hasn't been said? you don't think black bloc works, you have made that abundantly clear. instead of trying to leech out the same responses from people over why they think it does why don't you start presenting other options? and i seriously hope you don't think the elf/alf is more effective in terms of tactics.

[Ele'ill]

to use the example you use later of the vail ski resort, this was later built and, i believe, even bigger than the original. oh and it was covered by insurance. by and large most elf attacks have not "struck a blow" to their targets in any meaningful sense. the campaign against huntingdon life sciences is perhaps the closest to an effective campaign by such activists and it has relied more on traditional protest methods and various economic attacks against the company (via its stock holders) than arson.

This is a good point.

I think I was referring to the idea of wiping something out completely being more effective but the points you provided here still stand.




when charges are initially being filed the preferred method is usually "the more the better" in order to both scare the defendants and to guarantee they will have something that sticks whatever happens once the legal process gets moving. i can't speak to canadian examples, but in similar cases in the us most of the charges will be dropped, especially terrorism ones (this is what you were originally talking about, not mischief), and the defendants will probably be offered a decent plea deal. i'm not aware of any examples from protests were most of the charges have been maintained throughout the legal process and someone has been convicted on all of them.

Yeah, I'm familiar with how it works- I think the canadian example (Toronto) is different as they have a lot of evidence against those individuals- and the police went through the trouble of searching bank facial recognition systems and relying on the public. It appears to me to be a PR campaign.




as far as i can tell you disagree with the basic premises of most of the people who do those actions so i doubt there is going to be a communique out there that will justify anything in your mind.

This is a fair statement but who are the communiques for? Only other activists or the public?








i've answered this question elsewhere. this is what i am talking about with being repetitive. we've already had this discussion several times over the past year, what do you think you're going to get out of it now that hasn't been said? you don't think black bloc works, you have made that abundantly clear. instead of trying to leech out the same responses from people over why they think it does why don't you start presenting other options? and i seriously hope you don't think the elf/alf is more effective in terms of tactics.

Yeah, to be honest it has been heavily discussed in other threads- I just don't see key questions being answered about the tactic.

I do see the elf/alf tactics being more affective for what their goals are.

I most likely won't be suggesting other tactics- nonviolent- for obvious reasons.

[bcbm]

Yeah, I'm familiar with how it works- I think the canadian example (Toronto) is different as they have a lot of evidence against those individuals- and the police went through the trouble of searching bank facial recognition systems and relying on the public. It appears to me to be a PR campaign.

after the rnc they had police working to go through all of the video and photographic evidence for at least a year and possibly they are still going through it. from what i hear, the discovery in a number of those cases also contained plenty of evidence. this level of police work isn't really out of the ordinary, though the media campaign i will agree is.


This is a fair statement but who are the communiques for? Only other activists or the public?

a little of both, most likely.


Yeah, to be honest it has been heavily discussed in other threads- I just don't see key questions being answered about the tactic.

every question i have seen you ask in this thread and others has been answered. you just seem to not like or disagree with the answers, which isn't the same as meaning they are not answers.


I do see the elf/alf tactics being more affective for what their goals are.

i don't see how either one really holds up that well under scrutiny.

[Ele'ill]

Then I pretty much completely disagree with property destruction as it's being used in North America. I think the answers that have been given are weak and don't really address the questions being asked.




http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2010/07/401191.shtml

[bcbm]

Then I pretty much completely disagree with property destruction as it's being used in North America. I think the answers that have been given are weak and don't really address the questions being asked.

it might help to ask people who actually give a shit and don't, from very early on, acknowledge that they think this sort of thing is a waste of time.


http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2010/07/401191.shtml (http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2010/07/401191.shtml)

stupid.