Universal Healthcare questions

[Uppercut]

I have a few n00bish questions pertaining to UHC, particularly on how to counter right-wing arguments that we cannot afford it.

1) I honestly don't think wait times in UHC countries are that big of a deal, but does anyone know how long they are on average, and are there any ways to reduce the wait times?

2) Pertaining to cost, I'm pretty sure we can afford it, but the problem is that the money is not going into productive and progressive sectors of the health care industry. For example, the money spent on the war on drugs is more than enough to afford UHC, but I would like some more specifics in terms of how to deal with those that repeat the argument "we can't afford it".

3) Taxes. This is a common cop-out for UHC opponents. But if we look at social-democracies, the tax system doesn't seem all that bad, and these kinds of societies (although still capitalist and class based) do seem more equalized than we are here in America. Perhaps an overseas comrade could provide me some details on the benefits of your health care system.

Much appreciated :)

[Broletariat]

1) I'll let someone from a country with UHC answer, but I've always heard wait times aren't a big deal

2) Tax Capitalists for money of course, or take money away from things like war on drugs like you said.

3) Tax the right people and we're good

[ed miliband]

When I was four or five a tumour was discovered around my shoulder (it's quite hard to explain the location precisely). After some time I had it removed and I had no issues with it until I was around thirteen and I bumped my shoulder playing football. Swelled up like a balloon and was horribly bruised. I tried to get it checked out, but I had to wait six months for an appointment with a specialist. Of course, after waiting for six months the swelling had gone down... then it went up again... then down.

It got to the point where I had seen five or six different specialists, had a number of medical procedures, and was given three or four different diagnosis's. In the end I was treated, but it took around two years and I missed a lot of school time (not that I was complaining about that).

The NHS is great, but to say that it runs smoothly is not true, nor is it to say that waiting times are not a big deal - they really can be. The point is, however, that this is not a problem with the NHS, but with funding. If more medical staff were employed, hospitals better resourced, waiting lists reduced, etc. I would have had all those problems, and millions of other people wouldn't be facing those problems today.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

When I was six I hit my forehead bad riding down a slide and had to get a few stitches, I had to wait about two hours in the emergency room. Then again, this was before some of the later liberal reforms that made the waiting times for emergency appointments worse.

Appointments to see specialists usually have a waiting time of between 1-3 months depending on what it is. Appointments to see a general practician have the times I've had to see one been around the same, though if it is urgent one can generally get to see one faster. (The liberals enacted a reform called "Care guarantee" which essentially just makes various instances relay people arbitrarily to make it seem like they've seen a doctor within one month, typical "goal-oriented prioritisation", never works).

My grandmother had to do emergency surgery some months ago, she had to wait about 3 hours before seeing a doctor and then another two before the surgery.

Waiting times have nothing to do with universal health care or not, obviously; the need for health care is finite so it's simply a question of whether it is prioritised. When there are high waiting times there are obviously too few doctors to handle the amount of patients that are being seen.

[Invincible Summer]

Indeed, the wait times are not endemic of UHC itself, but creeping privatization and budget cuts to the health care industry as a whole

[Dimentio]

When I was six I hit my forehead bad riding down a slide and had to get a few stitches, I had to wait about two hours in the emergency room. Then again, this was before some of the later liberal reforms that made the waiting times for emergency appointments worse.

Appointments to see specialists usually have a waiting time of between 1-3 months depending on what it is. Appointments to see a general practician have the times I've had to see one been around the same, though if it is urgent one can generally get to see one faster. (The liberals enacted a reform called "Care guarantee" which essentially just makes various instances relay people arbitrarily to make it seem like they've seen a doctor within one month, typical "goal-oriented prioritisation", never works).

My grandmother had to do emergency surgery some months ago, she had to wait about 3 hours before seeing a doctor and then another two before the surgery.

Waiting times have nothing to do with universal health care or not, obviously; the need for health care is finite so it's simply a question of whether it is prioritised. When there are high waiting times there are obviously too few doctors to handle the amount of patients that are being seen.

Luckily and strangely, I've never had that problem. At worst, its taken two days to see a specialist.

[Adil3tr]

I live in the US. I caught on to the universal health care thing early on. I still believe we let 18,000 people die because they don't have care. And this reform isn't going to fix anything. We can afford universal, this private system is riddled with waste and profit.

[Dimentio]

I live in the US. I caught on to the universal health care thing early on. I still believe we let 18,000 people die because they don't have care. And this reform isn't going to fix anything. We can afford universal, this private system is riddled with waste and profit.

You cannot afford universal or single-payer. Then poor people might survive, and there wouldn't be any motivation to not be poor.

:laugh:

[danyboy27]

well, the problem is not that we cannot offord it, its the lack of doctor and terribly bad management that make it so crappy.

in my province, a single doctor increased an ER efficiency by 33% with a lot of cheap improvement.

Unfortunately the way hospital work in quebec, doctor and nurse are not really in control of things, some fat cat appointed administrator are, with the heavy bureaucracy that goes with it.

you would be shocked how much stupid pointless protocol are required to repair the wheel of an hospital bed.

things would be better if the hospital personnal would be able to control their environnements.

our lack of doctor is mainly caused beccause some lobbyist group called the doctor colledge, those assoles do everything they can to keep migrant doctor out of the profession to protect the new generation of doctor, so they can have a job.

last time i was at the ER, i waited like 6 hour beccause my back was jammed.

i will never go to the ER again, unless i am near death of something, i go to a small clinic instead.

[MarxSchmarx]

UHC means a very different thing in most developed countries. The system in England, for example, is very different from the system in Singapore.


I have a few n00bish questions pertaining to UHC, particularly on how to counter right-wing arguments that we cannot afford it.

1) I honestly don't think wait times in UHC countries are that big of a deal, but does anyone know how long they are on average, and are there any ways to reduce the wait times?


This is a right wing lie, repeated often enough in the US and Argentina. There are wait times in some poorly managed systems like the UK for elective surgeries. There are no wait times in the overwhelming majority of countries with universal health care.



2) Pertaining to cost, I'm pretty sure we can afford it, but the problem is that the money is not going into productive and progressive sectors of the health care industry. For example, the money spent on the war on drugs is more than enough to afford UHC, but I would like some more specifics in terms of how to deal with those that repeat the argument "we can't afford it".


I am assuming you are in America. The American economy cannot afford the highest per-capita GDP spending on a health care system that delivers mediocre results. GM for example finds production cheaper in Canada because privatized health care costs in America are outrageous. Not to mention issues of public health, for example, can we not afford somebody with a highly contagious disease not visiting a doctor when symptoms are mild because they are worried about costs? The same is true for preventative cancers - it costs more to treat these diseases when they are past the point where the family physician can give a few pills.




3) Taxes. This is a common cop-out for UHC opponents. But if we look at social-democracies, the tax system doesn't seem all that bad, and these kinds of societies (although still capitalist and class based) do seem more equalized than we are here in America. Perhaps an overseas comrade could provide me some details on the benefits of your health care system.


There are two ways to look at this. The first is to look at it as the services received for tax dollars. For example, your tax dollars in Northern Europe go pretty much directly to social services, many of which you directly benefit from, such as public housing or subsidized energy. By contrast, in America your tax dollars go to war, very little of which you directly benefit from. You have to pay for other services, like housing or schools, in addition to the tax burden. So there is an issue of how much "out of pocket" expenses are needed to sustain a first world standard of living, and in higher tax countries these can actually be less.

The second approach is that the progressive tax system actually means that those at the bottom pay less taxes. Where I grew up, taxes on people earning less than roughly 50000 USD were actually less than the United States. Granted if I was making millions upon millions an American tax burden would be lower, but for most people with regular jobs or in transitory positions taxation in America is higher. For example, in America students have to pay taxes on their scholarships, but in Canada they do not. By contrast, billionaires in Canada have to pay a hefty inheritance tax, but billionaires in America have a lighter inheritance burden. Unfortunately this argument has little pull with the American electorate, many who envision themselves being millionaires within a few years.