Nation Of Islam Apologists

[727Goon]

I was looking at an old Black Panther thread and for some reason NOI was being discussed and a lot of (white) leftists here seemed to be pro-Nation Of Islam. Back in the day the Black Panthers (you know, Black power group that was actually progressive) denounced the NOI as "black racists". So go ahead white folks, it's okay for you to talk shit about right wing racial separatists/supremacists. I mean fuck, from what I've heard White Power groups are known to be alright with Farrakhan, and it makes sense, they both have the same goal of racial separation.

[Raúl Duke]

Although you got to consider that old thread is old.

People change, plus members come and go.

Revleft changes.

Although since you brought it up I'm expecting either people agreeing you or taking the bait and defending NOI in a way that in some cynical perspective could be seen as tragic-comical.

[Nachie]

tragic-comical.

And here I was, thinking that's what rev-left is here for

[Franz Fanonipants]

More like Nation of I-don't-care-slam.

No, but seriously? I don't know of anyone who would possibly represent for NOI around here.

I'll go further and not go for the ridiculous, easy "reverse racist" arguments and say instead NOI is a weird, marginal group preaching racial determinism which is wrong.

[727Goon]

More like Nation of I-don't-care-slam.

No, but seriously? I don't know of anyone who would possibly represent for NOI around here.

I'll go further and not go for the ridiculous, easy "reverse racist" arguments and say instead NOI is a weird, marginal group preaching racial determinism which is wrong.

Yeah I'd say they are racist. Reverse racist isn't even a thing I don't think, it seems to be something the white power structure kind of invented to blame the victims of institutional racism, but that doesn't mean black people can't be individually racist. But racial determinism is pretty much the same thing as just racism though, right? Aren't White Power groups racial determinists?

[Franz Fanonipants]

Racial determinism isn't the same thing as racism. Racism is the structure of white supremacy that has and continues to rule the world for the last...300 or so years. Since the Nation of Islam is preaching the opposite of white supremacy I wouldn't call them racist.

[Weezer]

http://tclehner.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/rockwell_at_nation_of_islam_rally.jpg

George Lincoln Rockwell(center), founder of the American Nazi Party, at Nation of Islam meeting. Elijah Muhammad and Rockwell both happened to love racial segregation.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Are you sure that isn't a photoshop job? It looks like something coming out of a Charlie Chaplin movie, you know, The Great Dictator?

[727Goon]

Racial determinism isn't the same thing as racism. Racism is the structure of white supremacy that has and continues to rule the world for the last...300 or so years. Since the Nation of Islam is preaching the opposite of white supremacy I wouldn't call them racist.

I would go with the wikipedia definition: "Racism is the belief that the genetic factors which constitute race are a primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race." I think any race can be racist, but only non white people can be oppressed because of our race in America. I mean I got shit growing up in a black neighborhood and being mixed race, that's racism. And I mean plus all that shit with light skinned black kids making fun of the darker kids is racism as well.

[Franz Fanonipants]

I would go with the wikipedia definition

I wouldn't

[Homo Songun]

Bait taken

NOI represents a section of national [i.e., anti-comprador] bourgeoisie of the Black nation. At certain times and places, they can and have played a progressive roles in united fronts against the Monopoly capitalist class of the United States. The areas of the ghettoes under their control are relatively free of drug dealers and hustlers, and they try to provide jobs and social services to the Black masses in their own way. Besides, they have a positive appraisal of Fidel and support the Cuban revolution.

[727Goon]

Well I guess I see where you're coming from, I mean "reverse racism" or whatever is dumb, and like white people calling affirmative action or whatever racism is pretty fucked up, but it's also some fuck shit to say that black people can't be racist at all.

[727Goon]

Bait taken

NOI represents a section of national [i.e., anti-comprador] bourgeoisie of the Black nation. At certain times and places, they can and have played a progressive roles in united fronts against the Monopoly capitalist class of the United States. The areas of the ghettoes under their control are relatively free of drug dealers and hustlers, and they try to provide jobs and social services to the Black masses in their own way. Besides, they have a positive appraisal of Fidel and support the Cuban revolution.

Their anti-capitalism is pretty much just pragmatic though, they only oppose capitalism when they think it will further their backwards ass religious beliefs. Yeah I guess Muslims will get dealers off the block, but you know niggas hungry and the dope game is a pretty good way to pay them bills and put food on the table and shit. The Panthers were much more positive in terms of social services and a lot of Black Churches offer similar jobs and social services.

[Homo Songun]

The NOI are pro Black capitalism. They want to develop and expand their businesses in competition with the comprador Black bourgeoisie [drug dealers, gangsters, sell-outs, etc.] but ultimately they are stymied in this by actions of the monopoly capitalist class. The NOI program puts it in direct conflict with US imperialism. Communists ought to work within the cross-class Black Liberation movement, whilst working towards proletarian leadership within it. But either way, it seems like there is space for cooperation according to the Leninist doctrine of alliances between workers and oppressed nations for the defeat of imperialism.

[727Goon]

Well I'm not about Leninism, but the Black Muslims are pretty marginalized in the black community and practically theres no use to work with them. Plus they probably think that I'm half devil or some shit, so personally I wouldn't be comfortable working with them. I think you need to differentiate between left wing Black nationalism and racist nationalism. I'm not even a nationalist though, I'm more Black Power than anything. But how would proletarian leadership of NOI be positive? It would still be a reactionary racist organization, just headed up by working class folks. I mean fighting for separatism doesnt even go against the white supremacist system, thats why white nationalists fuck with the Nation of Islam.

[Jimmie Higgins]

The NOI are not in any way racists in the sense of the NAZIs or the KKK. They are black nationalist with a generally petty bourgeois outlook. That means they see the answer to black oppression in US society as black autonomy from US society. So they tend to promote black-owned business in black communities and strong black family units and "personal responsibility" and moral living as the means to ending oppression.

From the BPP discussion: nationalism of oppressed groups, because it is often class collaborationist, is generally unstable and mixed politically. The young militant people joining the NOI because of Malcolm X's stances around standing up to the racists, are not the same as the business-owners who saw more local community control through the NOI as being in their interests. So this is why sometimes the NOI is more outward and active but other-times totally inward and hostile to movements.

On top of the nationalism, the NOI also has separatist ideas which tend to lead to strange bedfellows and so the NOI has met with white nationalists. But regardless of this, and while we should be critical of their failings, I do not think any radical should equate the NOI with white supremacists. While divisive, any bigotry coming from oppressed communities is materially different than bigotry used to promote systemic racism and oppression by the elite of society or their supporters.

[727Goon]

The NOI are not in any way racists in the sense of the NAZIs or the KKK. They are black nationalist with a generally petty bourgeois outlook. That means they see the answer to black oppression in US society as black autonomy from US society. So they tend to promote black-owned business in black communities and strong black family units and "personal responsibility" and moral living as the means to ending oppression.

From the BPP discussion: nationalism of oppressed groups, because it is often class collaborationist, is generally unstable and mixed politically. The young militant people joining the NOI because of Malcolm X's stances around standing up to the racists, are not the same as the business-owners who saw more local community control through the NOI as being in their interests. So this is why sometimes the NOI is more outward and active but other-times totally inward and hostile to movements.

On top of the nationalism, the NOI also has separatist ideas which tend to lead to strange bedfellows and so the NOI has met with white nationalists. But regardless of this, and while we should be critical of their failings, I do not think any radical should equate the NOI with white supremacists. While divisive, any bigotry coming from oppressed communities is materially different than bigotry used to promote systemic racism and oppression by the elite of society or their supporters.

I wouldn't say that they are racists in the way of the KKK or the Nazi's, but they are racist and very right wing and all that. I think that they definitely do more harm than good when it comes to racism in this country, and I don't see why a radical would support their agenda. I think black racists out there, while certainly not nearly as much of a problem as white racists, should be denounced by the left and not considered allies. Yeah it comes from worse conditions, but racism should be wrong period. I mean how far are you gonna go wit it? Are you guys gonna make excuses for the New Black Panther Party and shit now?

[727Goon]

One thing I've noticed is that the right wing capitalistic version of Black nationalism is pretty heavily promoted in mainstream "Black" entertainment. I think this is because this form of nationalism poses no real thread to the white supremacist system, so it's acceptable to the white ruling class.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I wouldn't say that they are racists in the way of the KKK or the Nazi's, but they are racist and very right wing and all that. I think that they definitely do more harm than good when it comes to racism in this country, and I don't see why a radical would support their agenda. I think black racists out there, while certainly not nearly as much of a problem as white racists, should be denounced by the left and not considered allies. Yeah it comes from worse conditions, but racism should be wrong period. I mean how far are you gonna go wit it? Are you guys gonna make excuses for the New Black Panther Party and shit now?

The bigotry of the oppressor, what is called racism, comes out of the desires of the elite in society to divide the population in order to maintain its rule. The KKK terrorized blacks, Jews, Catholics and radicals and immigrants because they wanted to maintain and expand the the oppression of these other groups.

The strange anti-white ideas of the NOI does not come out of a desire to maintain the status-quo, it comes out of the racism directed AGAINST black people. Without systematic oppression, without segregation, there would be no NOI and no need to find religious explanations for why white people mistreat black people. Is it surprising that black people in a country with such sharp racial inequalities might think - why the hell are people so hateful, maybe they are all just evil. Is that an unreasonable conclusion for people who have been segregated to come to? Is it the same as the hysteria of white supremacists who fear that intergrated bussing will lead to wide-spread raping of white women or that latino immigration will lead to Mexico conquering the US? No, there is a clear difference.

There are many problems with nationalism of the opressed, sepratism, and the NOI specifically, but they are NOT "racists" in the sense of white supremacists and others who are defending the current unequal racial organization of the country.

[727Goon]

The bigotry of the oppressor, what is called racism, comes out of the desires of the elite in society to divide the population in order to maintain its rule. The KKK terrorized blacks, Jews, Catholics and radicals and immigrants because they wanted to maintain and expand the the oppression of these other groups.

The strange anti-white ideas of the NOI does not come out of a desire to maintain the status-quo, it comes out of the racism directed AGAINST black people. Without systematic oppression, without segregation, there would be no NOI and no need to find religious explanations for why white people mistreat black people. Is it surprising that black people in a country with such sharp racial inequalities might think - why the hell are people so hateful, maybe they are all just evil. Is that an unreasonable conclusion for people who have been segregated to come to? Is it the same as the hysteria of white supremacists who fear that intergrated bussing will lead to wide-spread raping of white women or that latino immigration will lead to Mexico conquering the US? No, there is a clear difference.

There are many problems with nationalism of the opressed, sepratism, and the NOI specifically, but they are NOT "racists" in the sense of white supremacists and others who are defending the current unequal racial organization of the country.

I don't think bigotry of the oppressor is a good definition for racism. For example I think I've probably had it worse so far at least, being mixed rase than I would have if I was black. I got my ass beat all the time back in the day cause my skin is light as fuck, and even though I have "black" hair and features, I'm lighter than most white people. But I never thought up a religious explanation for why some of the black kids would make fun of me and the some of white kids would call me a "nigger" and shit. I didn't think all black people were devils cause I got jumped, I just thought some niggas were dumb as fuck. Same for white people, I never thought that all white people were devils or hated me because of my race or were responsible for the actions of the government just some white boys were just racist idiots. I don't think someone in my situation, who has experienced racism from pretty much every racial group, would be justified in being racist against black people or white people or anything. I feel like I'm oppressed by my government and the capitalist economy on the basis of my race, and I'm sometimes discriminated against by black and hispanic people because of my race but it's all racism. I realize this is sort of anectdotal or whatever but it's late as fuck and its the best i got haha.

[727Goon]

I guess what I'm saying is that two wrongs don't make a right. If I were to carjack a white dude and it made him racist, his racism still would be fucked up and wrong.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Individual bigotry, while personally painful and not helpful for us as radicals trying to build a multi-ethnic/racial class-based movement, is just not the same as jim-crow, racial profiling, redlining, racist myths used by the elite to justify increased police powers and prison incarcerations, or the racist myths about "chaos on the border" to scapegoat immigrants for the recession and deterioration of schools and so on.

If someone calls an Irish dude a "mic" in 2010, it might hurt, but it is much different on a social level than the systemic anti-Irish oppression of the 1850s US when Know-Nothings were trying to restrict the rights of the Irish. So we can't seperate "rascism" from its relation to society.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I guess what I'm saying is that two wrongs don't make a right. If I were to carjack a white dude and it made him racist, his racism still would be fucked up and wrong.Again, individual animosity and oppression on a social level are totally different IMO. If one person injures another, it has nothing to do with race, so blaming his race or sexual orientation or whatever is totally irrational and just bigotry. Compare that to a situation like when the NOI formed - in the south there was jim-crow in the South and white terrorist organizations murdering people for trying to exercise their rights, in the north there was (and increasingly is again) de-facto segregation through red-lining and regular abuse by police while the government looked the other way at best or just outright encouraged it.

[727Goon]

Individual bigotry, while personally painful and not helpful for us as radicals trying to build a multi-ethnic/racial class-based movement, is just not the same as jim-crow, racial profiling, redlining, racist myths used by the elite to justify increased police powers and prison incarcerations, or the racist myths about "chaos on the border" to scapegoat immigrants for the recession and deterioration of schools and so on.

If someone calls an Irish dude a "mic" in 2010, it might hurt, but it is much different on a social level than the systemic anti-Irish oppression of the 1850s US when Know-Nothings were trying to restrict the rights of the Irish. So we can't seperate "rascism" from its relation to society.

Well yeah, there's obviously a big difference between institutional racism and personal racism, but it's all racism, it's all bad. I don't think religious bigotry in response to institutional racism does anything positive, it just sucks a too many would be revolutionaries into a hateful religion pretty much.

[Stand Your Ground]

Are you sure that isn't a photoshop job? It looks like something coming out of a Charlie Chaplin movie, you know, The Great Dictator?
It's true, I've read many articles that he went to their meetings to discuss segregation.

[Robocommie]

That Malcolm X eventually repudiated the Nation of Islam is enough for me to make up my own mind about them, however I think Jimmie Higgins' analysis is spot on. I think it's extremely wrong-headed to focus on the bizarre personal prejudices of a group which does not represent the status quo in any way, rather than those groups or institutions that actually promote the status quo and preserve the very racist system which fuels the Nation of Islam's prejudice.

[pastradamus]

Yeah I'd say they are racist. Reverse racist isn't even a thing I don't think, it seems to be something the white power structure kind of invented to blame the victims of institutional racism, but that doesn't mean black people can't be individually racist. But racial determinism is pretty much the same thing as just racism though, right? Aren't White Power groups racial determinists?

Ooooooooh! Now that bothers me! :mad: The Use of the term "reverse racist"! Racism is racism. You cant invert it on its head, any individual regardless of his creed or colour can be racist. Though I agree with what your saying - I just felt like throwing a dig at that particular term there comrade. :D

[727Goon]

Ooooooooh! Now that bothers me! :mad: The Use of the term "reverse racist"! Racism is racism. You cant invert it on its head, any individual regardless of his creed or colour can be racist. Though I agree with what your saying - I just felt like throwing a dig at that particular term there comrade. :D

Thats what I said dude, "reverse racism" is a fucking stupid term usually used by white racists.

[Franz Fanonipants]

there is no such thing as "personal racism."

that's like claiming there's "personal capitalism."

Now, I'll be bold here and claim that all the examples of black-on-everyone else "racism" you've cited here aren't racist. As I said early, racism has a formal definition and it isn't what you're defining it as.

That SAID, people of color can reinforce white supremacy by cutting each other's throats. When a Black dude gives an Arab shit for being a "terrorist" or when my brother-in-law mutters "mayate" under his breath every time a Black dude walks by, that's racist. But calling a white dude a cracker? That's just being shitty.

Or possibly militant.

[727Goon]

there is no such thing as "personal racism."

that's like claiming there's "personal capitalism."

Now, I'll be bold here and claim that all the examples of black-on-everyone else "racism" you've cited here aren't racist. As I said early, racism has a formal definition and it isn't what you're defining it as.

That SAID, people of color can reinforce white supremacy by cutting each other's throats. When a Black dude gives an Arab shit for being a "terrorist" or when my brother-in-law mutters "mayate" under his breath every time a Black dude walks by, that's racist. But calling a white dude a cracker? That's just being shitty.

Or possibly militant.

I think racism means to most people racial bigotry or hatred, so that's the definition I'm working with. So wait why is black racism against Arab people enforcing white supremacy but black racism against mixed race people not? As someone who's mixed race, I'm certainly not afforded any privilege by the white supremacist system, I've never met a white person who considered me white, so how the fuck am I gonna get white privilege. And yeah I agree with you about the cracker thing, I'd go so far to say I'll keep saying cracker as long as white boys keep saying nigga. Besides, cracker in the most literal sense means "whip cracker" and so I think it should be perfectly acceptable for me to call my boss or a cop a cracker, since they keep the white supremacist system alive by "cracking the whip" so to speak.

[727Goon]

That Malcolm X eventually repudiated the Nation of Islam is enough for me to make up my own mind about them, however I think Jimmie Higgins' analysis is spot on. I think it's extremely wrong-headed to focus on the bizarre personal prejudices of a group which does not represent the status quo in any way, rather than those groups or institutions that actually promote the status quo and preserve the very racist system which fuels the Nation of Islam's prejudice.

That's true, this is a pretty minor issue compared to white supremacy in society but it needs to be addressed if the left is trying to consider a right wing racist group allies. I also think it's wrong to excuse their bigotry because of the conditions in which it formed, sure it makes it more understandable, but the fact is there were progressive black groups like the Black Panthers ect who were big at the very same time period, and who denounced them as racist. I'm a little put off when white leftists say that Black people can't be racist, when probably the most revolutionary Black group the US has ever seen disagrees with that.

[DunyaGongrenKomRevolyutsi]

Are you sure that isn't a photoshop job? It looks like something coming out of a Charlie Chaplin movie, you know, The Great Dictator?

google.com/search?q=Louis+Farrakhan+hitler+very+great+man


March 11, 1984 - Min. Farrakhan responded to the insult in a radio broadcast from Chicago:

"So I said to the members of the press, 'Why won't you go and look into what we are saying about the threats on Reverend Jackson's life?' Here the Jews don't like Farrakhan and so they call me 'Hitler.' Well that's a good name. Hitler was a very great man. He wasn't great for me as a Black man but he was a great German and he rose Germany up from the ashes of her defeat by the united force of all of Europe and America after the first world war. Yet Hitler took Germany from the ashes and rose her up and made her the greatest fighting machine of the twentieth century, brothers and sisters, and even though Europe and America had deciphered the code that Hitler was using to speak to his chiefs of staff, they still had trouble defeating Hitler even after knowing his plans in advance. Now I'm not proud of Hitler's evil toward Jewish people, but that's a matter of record. He rose Germany up from nothing. Well, in a sense you could say there is a similarity in that we are rising our people up from nothing, but don't compare me with your wicked killers.

[9]

I think it's extremely wrong-headed to focus on the bizarre personal prejudices of a group which does not represent the status quo in any way, rather than those groups or institutions that actually promote the status quo and preserve the very racist system which fuels the Nation of Islam's prejudice.

Would it have likewise been "extremely wrong-headed" to point out the racism of Zionism in early 20th century Tsarist Russia because Jews were oppressed then? I think the answer is obvious. It is possible to criticize racism and anti-working class sentiments while still putting them in the context of the "institutions that actually promote the status quo and preserve the very racist system which fuels" them.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Would it have likewise been "extremely wrong-headed" to point out the racism of Zionism in early 20th century Tsarist Russia because Jews were oppressed then? I think the answer is obvious. It is possible to criticize racism and anti-working class sentiments while still putting them in the context of the "institutions that actually promote the status quo and preserve the very racist system which fuels" them.One of the main weaknesses of all nationalism of oppressed people is that, without a class view of the world (and an understanding of the potential social force the working class can wield because of their central position in society), even the best nationalists (like Malcolm X) do not have an alternative vision for how to transform society. So the NOI doesn't look to working class-based solutions, they look to petite-bourgeois and even black elite to "create" a space within capitalism where racism can not operate. For the NOI this ranges from the idea of black owned businesses being the only things that should operate in black communities to the idea that maybe there should be a separate region of black autonomy (again under the leadership of black businessmen and shop owners).

With zionism, it was similar - the lowest common denominator is not jewish nationalsim (since there were groups like the Russian/Polish Bunds and other Jewish groups with separate organizations that did not share the same ideas about liberation as the pre-Israel Zionists did) it is that the zionists saw appealing to the imperialists as the answer to Jewish oppression. They formed alliances with the German, British, and the with Israel the UK and US states, not to fight oppression in Europe, but to partake in oppression in other regions in exchange for a separate state. Someone could be a jewish nationalist back then and side with the working class as the allies that can help end oppression, they could have been a Jewish nationalist and thought that more autonomy and community control of the ghettos is all that was needed. So nationalism is just unpredictable and erratic because of the lack of clarity about the social (and class) origins of oppression and how this oppression is part of the system - this then often leads to nationalists seeking class-collaboration, separatism, and even appealing to the oppressors for nationalism-based autonomy in exchange for protecting the larger interests of the oppressors. But none of this is automatic - in times of social struggle nationalists (like Malcolm X) can be won to more progressive ideas - but in times when revolutionary struggle is low, the worst aspects of nationalism tends to be more prominent.

[Devrim]

the lowest common denominator is not jewish nationalsim (since there were groups like the Russian/Polish Bunds and other Jewish groups with separate organizations that did not share the same ideas about liberation as the pre-Israel Zionists did) it is that the zionists saw appealing to the imperialists as the answer to Jewish oppression. They formed alliances with the German, British, and the with Israel the UK and US states, not to fight oppression in Europe, but to partake in oppression in other regions in exchange for a separate state.

Which is what virtually all national liberation movements end up doing becoming tools of imperialist states, large or small.

Devrim

[Jimmie Higgins]

Which is what virtually all national liberation movements end up doing becoming tools of imperialist states, large or small.

DevrimYup, that is one possibility and it has happened many times, but it's not inevitable if there is a working class movement that can draw people from the national struggle into the class struggle. Most of the time it has been the other way around and the class struggle ends up tailing the national movement and then being used and pushed back down by the bourgeois or petty-bourgeois forces in the national movement.

[727Goon]

My question is why do you use the word "racism" to describe just white supremacy and institutional racism? I mean obviously white supremacy is a lot more prominent and a problem in America than black racism, which is really a minor thing, but why can't you use the dictionary definition of the word racism? And why is racism against blacks or arabs or asians worse than racism against mixed race people?

[Iskalla]

There's racists, supremacists, religious extremists and the Nation of Islam seem to be a unique blend of all three.

[Jimmie Higgins]

My question is why do you use the word "racism" to describe just white supremacy and institutional racism? I mean obviously white supremacy is a lot more prominent and a problem in America than black racism, which is really a minor thing, but why can't you use the dictionary definition of the word racism? And why is racism against blacks or arabs or asians worse than racism against mixed race people?

I always think of raceISM as either a systemic thing or an ideology whereas "bigotry" is just individual prejudice against anyone for whatever reason. And yes, this is not how it is commonly used right now, but "socialism" also commonly means "big governmnet" and/or "welfare-state programs" and/or fascism... I also reject these definitions when I talk about what I mean by socialism.


rac·ism

  http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/g/d/speaker.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/lunaWAV/R00/R0009800) /ˈreɪhttp://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngsɪzhttp://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngəm/ http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html) Show Spelled[rey-siz-uhhttp://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngm] http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html) Show IPA
–noun 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discrimination).

3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.



So only the 3rd definition is racism=bigotry. I think there has been a effort on the part of the ruling class to confuse people on racism. After the 1960s movements, the society could not pretend that jim-crow and other early and more obvious racism were defensible. So they had to change the way racism operates in society - they had to not make it seem as though it was about hatred of one or two groups, but hatred of individuals.

So when a cop beats up someone, they say that it's not about race, it's because that induvidual acted "suspiciously". When young black, brown, and Native American kids are disproportionately locked up in prison, they talk about the individuals being a problem.

So that's why I (maybe) over-emphasize systemic racism - I think we need to re-orient the discussions of racism in the US back onto a social level rather than an individual level, because individual bigotry does not explain why black cops still participate in racial profiling of blacks or why there are disproportionate numbers of minorities being sent to jail or why blacks and Latinos and Filipinos were targeted for bad sub-prime loans and all that.

But of course, you are right - hatred of racial/ethnic groups by anyone is not productive for building a united radical working class movement.

[The Red Next Door]

Why would you defend these fuckers anyway? they refer to Marx and Engels as devils.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Why would you defend these fuckers anyway? they refer to Marx and Engels as devils.Because if you are doing anti-prison or anti-police brutality work in some place like Oakland then you have to have an understanding of both their appeal and their shortcomings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO6c6_S41Nc

Minister Muhammed in Oakland makes fantastic speeches with some really sharp political observations, so to dismiss them as racists when most of the left here is white and they are probably the biggest non-liberal group organizing in the black neighborhoods does not help us build a multi-racial movement with lots of solidarity and trust. Of course simply supporting them without criticism would not help serve the creation of a multi-racial class-based movement either. So we should be critical, but not dismissive.

[727Goon]

It really sucks that a group like the NOI, while pretty marginalized and not taken too seriously in our community is still around while the Black Panthers were eliminated. Of course it also shows that the Nation of Islam poses no real threat to the white supremacist government or they would not be around today.

[727Goon]

And I'm not going to support any supposed black nationalist or black/brown power group that wouldnt let me join, even though I'm just as exploited as any other black person, on the basis that I have some "devil" blood in me.

[DunyaGongrenKomRevolyutsi]

Minister Muhammed in Oakland makes fantastic speeches with some really sharp political observations, so to dismiss them as racists when most of the left here is white and they are probably the biggest non-liberal group organizing in the black neighborhoods does not help us build a multi-racial movement with lots of solidarity and trust. Of course simply supporting them without criticism would not help serve the creation of a multi-racial class-based movement either. So we should be critical, but not dismissive.

If we were to actually agree with your premise here, one thing still wouldn't make sense as a communist disregarding race in every way: 'class-based'.

In an earlier post you said they were a petty-bourgeoisie movement.

Nope, don't live in Oakland, never been to California or the USA before. There just has to be a better way of resisting police brutality, capitalism and of uniting workers across race. It would be different if you weren't actively working with them and instead focused your attention on their appeals and shortcomings, being understanding of members in the NOI, but that's not really the case as far as I can judge from what you've said.

[Jimmie Higgins]

If we were to actually agree with your premise here, one thing still wouldn't make sense as a communist disregarding race in every way: 'class-based'.

In an earlier post you said they were a petty-bourgeoisie movement.Yes in political outlook, not necessarily in membership. There are literally millions of working class people who vote Democrat, but the Democrats are still a bourgeois party - so the judgment is of the interested represented, not the make-up of the membership.


Nope, don't live in Oakland, never been to California or the USA before. There just has to be a better way of resisting police brutality, capitalism and of uniting workers across race. It would be different if you weren't actively working with them and instead focused your attention on their appeals and shortcomings, being understanding of members in the NOI, but that's not really the case as far as I can judge from what you've said.My argument is that we can not call them racists and lump them with the KKK as liberals and conservatives do. Nationalism and particularly the NOI are a dead-end as far as liberation goes, my point is only that we can not dismiss them outright because they are a contradictory group and can play a progressive role at times, but a bad or inactive role at other points.

[DunyaGongrenKomRevolyutsi]

Yes in political outlook, not necessarily in membership. There are literally millions of working class people who vote Democrat, but the Democrats are still a bourgeois party - so the judgment is of the interested represented, not the make-up of the membership.

Sorry if I've misunderstood you, but do you believe the US Democratic party has a progressive role to play as well? And are you saying that the NOI has a mostly working-class membership? From my understanding, they, at least in the past, had a mostly lumpen and petit-bourgeoisie membership, is this correct?


My argument is that we can not call them racists and lump them with the KKK as liberals and conservatives do. Nationalism and particularly the NOI are a dead-end as far as liberation goes, my point is only that we can not dismiss them outright because they are a contradictory group and can play a progressive role at times, but a bad or inactive role at other points.

But..if they are a dead end as far as liberation goes... I don't get it, liberation is something we are always working towards, it doesn't just happen overnight.. it takes lifetimes to achieve and groups like the NOI don't exist in a vacuum. For every action that you (and I mean you personally) would see as being progressive, that is undertaken by the NOI, it seems like you can point out three to one that aren't. You can't see the faults and the positives of an organisation that is a dead end for liberation and choose to still work with them, I mean, without meaning to sound rude at all, that seems hypocritical and like you're just making life a thousand times more impossible for yourself, if indeed your aim is the complete abolition of capitalism.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Sorry if I've misunderstood you, but do you believe the US Democratic party has a progressive role to play as well?No - first of all they are bourgeois and not petty-bourgeois in outlook. Petty-bourgeois politics tend to swing wildly all over the map because those class interests are sometimes in harmony with working class interests, sometimes in harmony with ruling class interests or neither. The NOI is no exception and this is why they can at some points be doing something positive, then they can become completely cult-y and insular, and then they can also be reactionary.


And are you saying that the NOI has a mostly working-class membership? From my understanding, they, at least in the past, had a mostly lumpen and petit-bourgeoisie membership, is this correct?I don't know what their exact membership is, but probably - at least at their height it was probably mostly working class blacks in the membership. They recruit in prisons and so that is probably why you think they are lumpen, but that is just part of their membership, not all of it, and since they do have a middle-class outlook, with substance abstinence as a key part, I don't think they allow ex-con members to be lumpen and probably set up networks to help their members get jobs (so they can be the male breadwinner of the house). They are not petty-bourgeois in the sense of only trying to recruit shop-owners and professionals, they have this political outlook because they support things like starting black-owned business in order to stop job discrimination against blacks and so on.


But..if they are a dead end as far as liberation goes... I don't get it, liberation is something we are always working towards, it doesn't just happen overnight.. it takes lifetimes to achieve and groups like the NOI don't exist in a vacuum. For every action that you (and I mean you personally) would see as being progressive, that is undertaken by the NOI, it seems like you can point out three to one that aren't. You can't see the faults and the positives of an organization that is a dead end for liberation and choose to still work with them, I mean, without meaning to sound rude at all, that seems hypocritical and like you're just making life a thousand times more impossible for yourself, if indeed your aim is the complete abolition of capitalism.You seem to think I'm saying that comrades go out and find the NOI to work with them - I am not. I'm saying in many northern urban cities, they are a fact if you are organizing in black communities or around criminal justice issues. So we need to have a good way of criticizing them without alienating ourselves from their allies or causing sectarian fights.

If our position is that they are racists as bad as the KKK, then when we go into a community where the NOI basically operates as a socially-conscious church and we would be laughed away by people who would be thinking, between the cops, landlords, and so on, I'll take the NOI thank you very much. The NOI doesn't cause any problems in people's communities, mostly people just seem them as sort of a cult of young men in ties - so if we call them racists, our arguments won't go very far with anyone but white people who think that there is such a thing as "black racism" against whites. It's even worse if it's primarily a bunch of white radicals saying this - then all of our arguments would be looked at with suspicion.

On the other hand if we have a more nuanced critique I think we can easily win people to our views. One of the major weakness of the NOI is that they are "all talk" and this is a wide-spread view. It is also a class-view because for the NOI, while they often do take some near-term actions, ultimately "fixing" racism means organizing the black community through everyone becoming Muslim and adopting the proper moral outlook. Working class people can not wait for autonomous NOI communities (and probably don't want to adopt a strict moral code) or for the Revolution for change to come for that matter - so we can offer more immediate challenges to the system that opresses people and offer more ideas about how we can self-organize to effect change now and ultimately take over the entire system and have that revolution that will allow people to liberate themselves.

[DunyaGongrenKomRevolyutsi]

No - first of all they are bourgeois and not petty-bourgeois in outlook.

That shouldn't matter either way, this point should stand on its own or not. Communists don't stand for either of those classes.


I don't know what their exact membership is, but probably - at least at their height it was probably mostly working class blacks in the membership. They recruit in prisons and so that is probably why you think they are lumpen, but that is just part of their membership, not all of it, and since they do have a middle-class outlook, with substance abstinence as a key part, I don't think they allow ex-con members to be lumpen and probably set up networks to help their members get jobs (so they can be the male breadwinner of the house). They are not petty-bourgeois in the sense of only trying to recruit shop-owners and professionals, they have this political outlook because they support things like starting black-owned business in order to stop job discrimination against blacks and so on.

You don't seem a hundred percent sure it was mostly working-class blacks in their membership, which matters. Their class interest is very clearly petty-bourgeoisie, which sabotages our struggle, even if done with the best and most helpful intentions; of black emancipation.


You seem to think I'm saying that comrades go out and find the NOI to work with them - I am not. I'm saying in many northern urban cities, they are a fact if you are organizing in black communities. So we need to have a good way of criticizing them without alienating ourselves from their allies or causing sectarian fights.

That sounds good and everything, but you seem very insistent on defending them here. Whether or not they are as bad as the KKK is immaterial to me, I never said they were, I would also not pick fights or confrontations with KKK members personally in the name of "anti-fascism" machismo or something like that. If individual KKK sympathisers were willing to talk about their issues, I would potentially still listen and provide my input (as impossible a scene as that may seem), obviously within reason.

[Jimmie Higgins]

That sounds good and everything, but you seem very insistent on defending them here. Whether or not they are as bad as the KKK is immaterial to me, I never said they were, I would also not pick fights or confrontations with KKK members personally in the name of "anti-fascism" machismo or something like that. If individual KKK sympathisers were willing to talk about their issues, I would potentially still listen and provide my input (as impossible a scene as that may seem), obviously within reason.

I am only defending them from the charges that they are somehow racists equivalent to the KKK or groups who actively terrorize the oppressed in society in defense of racial and economic inequality. I know this is not what you have been arguing, but some have been arguing this and it is a common way they are viewed in the US by the media and many regular people (the highest portion being white but non-white people too - this is just anecdotal because usually I hear this line from white people, but I have heard people from a few people of other ethnic groups say this too).

It's like if someone says Stalin is the same as Hitler - I certainty don't support the politics Stalin represented, but I think it's definitely important to make the distinction that Stalinism is totally different than fascism even if both were brutal.

On a side note, I think it is important to confront the KKK and similar groups because they are terrorizing people in defense of the unequal status quo of society. The Neo-Nazis take to the border and have armed patrols while looking for immigrants (at a time when anti-Latino hate-crimes are skyrocketing). This (armed white NAZIs trying to target intimidate immigrant workers and all Latinos in effect) is qualitatively different than the NOI protesting the execution of a black man by the prison system or even their stupid plans like opening a black owned clothing store or something.

[Devrim]

I am only defending them from the charges that they are somehow racists equivalent to the KKK or groups who actively terrorize the oppressed in society in defense of racial and economic inequality. I know this is not what you have been arguing, but some have been arguing this and it is a common way they are viewed in the US by the media and many regular people (the highest portion being white but non-white people too - this is just anecdotal because usually I hear this line from white people, but I have heard people from a few people of other ethnic groups say this too).

I don't think that anybody on here does that. I think it is some straw man that you have made up in your head and seem to see some reason to attack.

Possibly one reason that you don't see that comparison being drawn is because most of the people you are disagreeing with are not from the US, and would never even think of making it anyway.

Devrim

[Jimmie Higgins]

I am only defending them from the charges that they are somehow racists equivalent to the KKK or groups who actively terrorize the oppressed in society in defense of racial and economic inequality. I know this is not what you have been arguing, but some have been arguing this and it is a common way they are viewed in the US by the media and many regular people (the highest portion being white but non-white people too - this is just anecdotal because usually I hear this line from white people, but I have heard people from a few people of other ethnic groups say this too).


I don't think that anybody on here does that. I think it is some straw man that you have made up in your head and seem to see some reason to attack.Read the first page of this thread.
http://tclehner.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/rockwell_at_nation_of_islam_rally.jpg
Gee, why would I think people are making this comparison?

[Devrim]

Gee, why would I think people are making this comparison?

It remains true though that the majority of people who you are discussing it with aren't making that comparisson.

Not that I think there is anything wrong with pointing out that the NOI is an organisation which is quite happy to work with one of the most absurd US rightest organisations, not the KKK by the way who you keep making the references, but the constant references from to the KK are coming from you yourself.

Devrim

[Jimmie Higgins]

Ok, then if not one is arguing that the NOI are racists equivalent to NAZIs or the KKK, great. Sorry for over-emphasizing the point - like I said it is a common line put out in the media (along with the Black Panthers are Black racist or that socialism = government control) and reflected by a lot of people in the US, so I think it's important to be clear about it.

[DunyaGongrenKomRevolyutsi]

Well you seem paranoid about people saying that, as if its something you only get in the USA? We get it here too, if I were to suspect every third person of being a neoliberal Thatcherite who thinks social-democracy is socialist fascism then to be honest, I wouldn't get too far with a lot of people that I speak to, it's probably easier to suspect them too in the person because so many people do support some actions of the govt that seem suspect (like privatisation or what have you). Just saying.