7 million people most likely starved in the US Great Depression during 1933

[Adi Shankara]

http://english.pravda.ru/world/americas/105255-0/

interesting food for thought. where did all those people go?


The researcher, Boris Borisov, in his article titled “The American Famine” estimated the victims of the financial crisis in the US at over seven million people. The researcher also directly compared the US events of 1932-1933 with Holodomor, or Famine, in the USSR during 1932-1933.
In the article, Borisov used the official data of the US Census Bureau. Having revised the number of the US population, birth and date rates, immigration and emigration, the researcher came to conclusion that the United States lost over seven million people during the famine of 1932-1933.
“According to the US statistics, the US lost not less than 8 million 553 thousand people from 1931 to 1940. Afterwards, population growth indices change twice instantly exactly between 1930-1931: the indices drop and stay on the same level for ten years. There can no explanation to this phenomenon found in the extensive text of the report by the US Department of Commerce “Statistical Abstract of the United States,” the author wrote.
The researcher points out the movement of population at this point: “A lot more people left the country than arrived during the 1930s – the difference is estimated at 93,309 people, whereas 2.960,782 people arrived in the country a decade earlier. Well, let’s correct the number of total demographic losses in the USA during the 1930s by 3,054 people.”
I guess when you really think about it, it is nearly impossible to believe that we had a decade of homelessness and unemployment and not a single person starved.

[Adi Shankara]

if you were to say outloud "The United States had a decade of crippling poverty and breadlines, homelessness, chronic unemployment, malnutrition, and shanty-towns, and not a single person starved to death" it sounds completely like propaganda.

in fact, could you imagine if a Russian said that?

[Jazzhands]

Of course it's propaganda! we were all taught in school that there was starvation but they sure as hell never gave us real statistics except the unemployment rate. all we saw was the migrant woman photo over and over again.

[chegitz guevara]

I don't see any drop.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/US_Population_Graph_-_1790_to_2000.svg/800px-US_Population_Graph_-_1790_to_2000.svg.png

[Adi Shankara]

I don't see any drop.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/US_Population_Graph_-_1790_to_2000.svg/800px-US_Population_Graph_-_1790_to_2000.svg.png

but again though, you have to ask yourself, is it logical to think that, for an entire great depression, that not a single person died of starvation? what would mainstream america be saying if a Russian said that? or a Chinese?

[khad]

I don't see any drop.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/US_Population_Graph_-_1790_to_2000.svg/800px-US_Population_Graph_-_1790_to_2000.svg.png
These census points are drawn at 10 year intervals. What you do see is a sharp divergence from the prevailing trend of increasing rates of population growth from the years 1930-1940. The rate of growth pretty much halves in that decade.

The USSR census didn't record a population drop either during the famine 30s, FYI. The 1926 Soviet census recorded 147 million people, while the 1937 census recorded at least 162 million. The 162 million figure was reportedly a figure Stalin tried to suppress, as he had expected an increase to 170 million, though there is some historical quibbling over whether the 162 million figure was a lowball estimate.

Nevertheless, the population of the USSR increased more than 10% during roughly the same historical period as the Great Depression, which was comparable, or, rather a little better than the rate of growth in the USA.

Famines, while terrible, are generally just blips on the demographic data.

[chegitz guevara]

but again though, you have to ask yourself, is it logical to think that, for an entire great depression, that not a single person died of starvation? what would mainstream america be saying if a Russian said that? or a Chinese?

No one said that no one died of starvation. Hundreds of people died in New York City. If starvation were so great that seven to eight million people died, (and this before the Dust Bowl), then birth rates would had to have sky rocketed during that period in order to make up the growth we see. Typically, however, during period of starvation and extreme privation, what we see is a drop in birth rates, which is consistent with the demographic data shown.


These census points are drawn at 10 year intervals. What you do see is a sharp divergence from the prevailing trend of increasing rates of population growth from the year 1930-1940. The rate of growth pretty much halves in that decade.

The USSR census didn't record a population drop either during the famine 30s, FYI.

See above.

More importantly, if there were millions of people starving to death in America, it would be part of our collective memory. People who lived through the period would have talked about it. That many bodies and someone's going to notice. Not even the communist press talked about it, so either they were in on hushing it up with the capitalist media or it didn't happen. Seven million people was about five and a half percent of the population. No way they could have hushed that up.

The article is bullshit to make Russians not feel so bad about the Famine in the 30s.

[khad]

No one said that no one died of starvation. Hundreds of people died in New York City. If starvation were so great that seven to eight million people died, (and this before the Dust Bowl), then birth rates would had to have sky rocketed during that period in order to make up the growth we see. Typically, however, during period of starvation and extreme privation, what we see is a drop in birth rates, which is consistent with the demographic data shown.
Which was the case in Ukraine as well. Adjusted for birth rate data, the famine could not have claimed more than about 3 million victims. There was another famine in 36 in Kazakhstan that more influenced by drought.

In spite of all this, overall demographic growth in the USSR was higher than that in the USA during the same period.

Most Soviet citizens did not have any experience of famine in those years. A lot of old Russians today even remember the Stalin years as a time of plenty.


More importantly, if there were millions of people starving to death in America, it would be part of our collective memory. People who lived through the period would have talked about it. That many bodies and someone's going to notice. Not even the communist press talked about it, so either they were in on hushing it up with the capitalist media or it didn't happen. Seven million people was about five and a half percent of the population. No way they could have hushed that up.About 600,000 people died in the 1918 flu in the United States, and hardly anyone now considers it a topic worth mentioning. The government at the time even suppressed knowledge of it because it would take away from the war effort.

7 million people over 12 years translates to rougly 600,000 surplus deaths per year. And since most famine deaths are typically due to diseases brought about by weakened immune systems, I could see very easily how something like this would get ignored for not being newsworthy.

[chegitz guevara]

Which was the case in Ukraine as well. Adjusted for birth rate data, the famine could not have claimed more than about 3 million victims. There was another famine in 36 in Kazakhstan that more influenced by drought.

And they remember it in the Ukraine and in the Donbas. Because it didn't happen in the rest of the USSR, they don't remember it. And precisely because it was a period of rapid economic growth, there was a massive population boom in those areas. Meanwhile, in the areas of the famine, not only did about three million people die, people stopped being born.


About 600,000 people died in the 1918 flu in the United States, and hardly anyone now considers it a topic worth mentioning. The government at the time even suppressed knowledge of it because it would take away from the war effort.

7 million people over 12 years translates to rougly 600,000 surplus deaths per year. And since most famine deaths are typically due to diseases brought about by weakened immune systems, I could see very easily how something like this would get ignored for not being newsworthy.

:laugh: Please share what you're smoking.

[Nolan]

Because it didn't happen in the rest of the USSR

O rly.

[khad]

Please share what you're smoking.
Only if I can have a sip of your sweet, sweet liberal kool-aid.

[Jazzhands]

No one said that no one died of starvation. Hundreds of people died in New York City. If starvation were so great that seven to eight million people died, (and this before the Dust Bowl), then birth rates would had to have sky rocketed during that period in order to make up the growth we see. Typically, however, during period of starvation and extreme privation, what we see is a drop in birth rates, which is consistent with the demographic data shown.



See above.

More importantly, if there were millions of people starving to death in America, it would be part of our collective memory. People who lived through the period would have talked about it. That many bodies and someone's going to notice. Not even the communist press talked about it, so either they were in on hushing it up with the capitalist media or it didn't happen. Seven million people was about five and a half percent of the population. No way they could have hushed that up.

The article is bullshit to make Russians not feel so bad about the Famine in the 30s.

What he said about the flu. Plus, do you know how short America's attention span is? they'll forget ANYTHING.

[Adi Shankara]

Most Soviet citizens did not have any experience of famine in those years. A lot of old Russians today even remember the Stalin years as a time of plenty.

I find it interesting that, those who lived during the Stalin years and remember them are often his most fervent defenders and supporters.


What he said about the flu. Plus, do you know how short America's attention span is? they'll forget ANYTHING.

we barely remember that the world trade center was bombed in the 1990's, which would make you think we'd step up security for it.

[Soviet dude]

I've very familiar with the demographic analysis of the USSR during the 1930s, and the techniques used by Boris Borisov are literally exactly the same as used by most propagandists of old. That the article is "bullshit" is the point: Western demographic analysis of the USSR is complete and utter bullshit. This has been known, of course, for years in the academic community, though these long discredited claims are still uphold by the extreme-right and people on the Left who base their political existence on hating the USSR.

[khad]

What he said about the flu. Plus, do you know how short America's attention span is? they'll forget ANYTHING.
Some more facts to mull over. The general mortality rate in 1937 was roughly the same as the death rate in the late 20s. This is despite a greatly expanded public health net and vaccination program, as well as a lower overall birth rate. Infant mortality at the time was between 40-60 per thousand, so the decreasing birthrate during the time of privation would have skewed the overall death rate in a negative direction.

For a population of about 120 million, a death rate delta of 1 per 1000 would constitute a figure of 120,000.

The figure of 7 million starvation/malnutrition related deaths is probably too high and probably needs to be revised down for factors like net emigration. However, to dismiss it out of hand is just the hallmark of a liberal douche.

[chegitz guevara]

What he said about the flu. Plus, do you know how short America's attention span is? they'll forget ANYTHING.

I learned about the flu in grade school in the 1970s.

Also, one of my relatives died of the flu, so it was part of our family history. I have never, until this bs thread appeared, ever heard of this insane story.

[khad]

I learned about the flu in grade school in the 1970s.

Also, one of my relatives died of the flu, so it was part of our family history. I have never, until this bs thread appeared, ever heard of this insane story.
Yes, it's insane to think that malnutrition is a risk factor for disease and early death. :rolleyes:

[Adi Shankara]

I learned about the flu in grade school in the 1970s.

Also, one of my relatives died of the flu, so it was part of our family history. I have never, until this bs thread appeared, ever heard of this insane story.

What makes it insane? the fact that it wasn't reported in your history book in high school?

they also didn't tell you that Thomas Jefferson was a rapist, and that isn't any less true.

[chegitz guevara]

O rly.

Really. The famine happened in the Eastern Ukraine and the Donbas.

[khad]

Really. The famine happened in the Eastern Ukraine and the Donbas.
And mortality increasing malnutrition didn't occur in the US?

[chegitz guevara]

What makes it insane? the fact that it wasn't reported in your history book in high school?

they also didn't tell you that Thomas Jefferson was a rapist, and that isn't any less true.

Find one communist newspaper from the 1930s discussing millions of Americans dying of starvation. Just one. That's all you have to do.

[chegitz guevara]

And mortality increasing malnutrition didn't occur in the US?

Not by seven million people. There are records of people starving to death, not millions, not hundreds of thousands. If only a few hundred died in NYC, it's highly unlikely that more than a few thousands died nation wide.

[khad]

Find one communist newspaper from the 1930s discussing millions of Americans dying of starvation. Just one. That's all you have to do.
And get it through that lead skull of yours that almost no one dies of starvation, not even in the great Ukrainian famine you like to harp on about. People die of secondary conditions brought about by their malnourished states.

[chegitz guevara]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Holodomor.jpg
http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv273/el_fulanito/Ukraine-famine-holodomor.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Holodomor_-_Harkivska_oblast.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_eP6LEazLxSY/SvcU69T1LyI/AAAAAAAADQI/zyiRfZFdKv4/s400/a+Holodomor+hambruna+ucraniana.JPG
http://themanyfacesofspaces.com/Holodomor_14.jpg

Show me a picture from America.

[chegitz guevara]

And get it through that lead skull of yours that almost no one dies of starvation, not even in the great Ukrainian famine you like to harp on about. People die of secondary conditions brought about by their malnourished states.

You are deliberately conflating malnutrition with starvation.

[Soviet dude]

chegitz guevara, it appears you may be a little fuzzy on what a "death" is, in terms of demographic analysis. Allow me to explain in a brief way.

This type of analysis involves taking census data from one period and making extrapolations on what their estimated population should be in a future period. The census data from that future period is compared to the extrapolations and the result is known technically as a "population deficit." You can call these "deaths" if you want to be particularly dishonest, as most American historians are when talking about the USSR.

Now a "a population deficit" doesn't equal a dead body lying in the street somewhere. It could be that the "deaths" are a reflection of older people dying sooner than they would under normal circumstances related to malnutrition rather than simply starvation. It could also reflect people never born (and hence, never really "died"), because the birth rate declined. It could reflect any number of things other than outright starvation. This is well known and understood by respectable demographers, but this is completely glossed over by anti-communist historians (most of whom making up these numbers having no formal statistic training at all).

There is in fact, not a whole lot wrong with this study. What is wrong is the is how the concept of a "population deficit" is being used, and of course, the author is aware of this, and it is mostly a long piece of sarcasm.

[RadioRaheem84]

And get it through that lead skull of yours that almost no one dies of starvation, not even in the great Ukrainian famine you like to harp on about. People die of secondary conditions brought about by their malnourished states. this seems more plausible. I could see how malnutrition due to lack of food could contribute to many deaths during the depression. I mean how insular are we to believe that there were no deaths due to lack of food, poor diet, etc. Damn are we to believe this country could withstand anything?! I look this data with a cautious eye but I am also sick of believing that we were always a strong nation where the ills that infested the world always bypassed us.

[khad]

Show me a picture from America.
And those people likely died of diseases. Your point? Apparently you can't argue from the relevant data and have to resort to these emotive arguments and fake photos, you liberal douche.

It's a medical fact that malnutrition is a risk factor for disease and early death. The question is a matter of degree. There is no way just "a few thousand" Americans died of malnutrition/starvation related conditions when mortality rates, when adjusted for negative bias through vaccination and decreased birth rate, was abnormally high.

[Soviet dude]

chegitz, those pictures are from the Volga Famine in the 1920s. This is well documented. The second and fifth photo come from a 1922 report from Dr. Fridtjof Nansen's group International Committee for Russian Relief. Fridtjof won a Nobel Prize for his relief work. These pictures are literally old Nazi propaganda.

[Adi Shankara]

From the University of Houston:


President Herbert Hoover declared, "Nobody is actually starving. The hoboes are better fed than they have ever been." But in New York City in 1931, there were 20 known cases of starvation; in 1934, there were 110 deaths caused by hunger. There were so many accounts of people starving in New York that the West African nation of Cameroon sent $3.77 in relief. http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/learning_history/children_depression/depression_children_menu.cfm

What also makes it suspect: the president declares something unbelievable like "the Hoboes are better fed then they ever have been".

when things like that are said, what else are we to belief? those are 110 deaths in New York city alone starving --the worst hit parts of the country were Kansas, Oklahoma, Missouri, and Indiana. Who knows how many died there, and we may never know--those rural parts of didn't have the same access to press that the major cities did.

What more, a university reported it--and it took me a while to find the above quotation. if it's that hard to find proof of recorded deaths, who know how many fell under the line of sight.

[khad]

http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/learning_history/children_depression/depression_children_menu.cfm

From the University of Houston
And these are people literally starving to death. How many more would have died from the flu or from some other infectious disease while going hungry on the streets?

[chegitz guevara]

You have such a solid command of the facts and reasoning that you have to contantly insult me. :thumbup1: Sign of a winning argument there. :lol:

[chegitz guevara]

And these are people literally starving to death. How many more would have died from the flu or from some other infectious disease while going hungry on the streets?

And THAT IS WHAT IS CLAIMED, ACTUAL DEATHS TO STARVATION. Thank you for finally admitting you're full of shit.

[Adi Shankara]

Also from the same article:



In the Pennsylvania coal fields, three or four families crowded together in one-room shacks and lived on wild weeds. In Arkansas, families were found inhabiting caves. In Oakland, California, whole families lived in sewer pipes.

If three or four families were living on weeds...you can bet they suffered from malnutrition. there can't be too much protein or calcium in wild weeds.


And THAT IS WHAT IS CLAIMED, ACTUAL DEATHS TO STARVATION. Thank you for finally admitting you're full of shit.

You're an idiot; most people who die of starvation die of diseases related to a weakened immune system, just like most old people don't die of "old age" but a disease related to a weakened immune system. your lack of knowledge on the topic is appalling.

[chegitz guevara]

From the University of Houston:

http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/learning_history/children_depression/depression_children_menu.cfm

What also makes it suspect: the president declares something unbelievable like "the Hoboes are better fed then they ever have been".

when things like that are said, what else are we to belief? those are 110 deaths in New York city alone starving--the worst hit parts of the country were Kansas, Oklahoma, and Missouri, and Indiana. Who knows how many died there, and we may never know--those rural parts of didn't have the same access to press that the major cities did.

So this equals seven million starving to death?

People in the country were much, much less likely to starve to death for one very simple reason. They grew their own food. Remember, we're talking about 1930-31 here, not the Dust Bowl.

As to what Hoover said, it's utterly irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is actual hard data, the only data of which you have shows that not that many people died of starvation.

[chegitz guevara]

Also from the same article:



If three or four families were living on weeds...you can bet they suffered from malnutrition. there can't be too much protein or calcium in wild weeds.

You're now changing the goal posts.

[Nolan]

Show me a picture from America.


You're now changing the goal posts.

So are you.

[Adi Shankara]

You're now changing the goal posts.

You really don't get it do you; most deaths by starvation are deaths by disease related to malnutrition. these can be seen as deaths by starvation, since if they were properly fed, they would not have died.

[chegitz guevara]

So are you.

No, I'm not. TS made an insane claim that 7 million people died from starvation, not in the 1930s, but from 1932-33. A few thousand people may have starved to death, deaths that can actually be documented.

Now they are claiming that it was all deaths which could be attributed to factors increased by malnutrition during the entire period of the 1930s.

No, they are full of shit.

[khad]

No, I'm not. TS made an insane claim that 7 million people died from starvation, not in the 1930s, but from 1932-33. A few thousand people may have starved to death, deaths that can actually be documented.
If you go back to the historical record of any of the famines that happened in Ukraine or Kazakhstan, I doubt you'll find more than a few thousand documented cases of starvation deaths.

In the case of the 1840s Irish famine, with the relevant literature reviewed here, (http://faculty.wcas.northwestern.edu/%7Ejmokyr/mogbeag.pdf)

The demographic breakdown of the causes of excess deaths are thus:

23.4% diarrhea, dysentery, gastroenteritis
7.0% cholera
24.5% fever
10.8% respiratory
4.1% starvation & scurvy
28.2% unknown/other

Now, keep prattling while no one gives a shit, because it's amply clear you don't know the first thing about famines.

[Pretty Flaco]

Just a quick question but... how many people died of starvation during the Great Leap Forward?

[khad]

Just a quick question but... how many people died of starvation during the Great Leap Forward?
Starvation or starvation/malnutrition-related complications? I've seen estimates of total excess mortality / pop deficit during that period fall into the 10-20 mil range.

[Die Neue Zeit]

It was a Great Leap Backward all because someone's ego couldn't cater to economic development cooperation with "revisionists" / "social-imperialists."

[Soviet dude]

I've seen as low as 200,000 in Mobo Gao's book. There are some great articles about it on the China Study website. I recommend this link:

http://chinastudygroup.net/2009/10/the-production-of-death-in-chinese-proportions-read-this-article-by-utsa-patnaik-on-the-great-leap-forward-famine/

[RedScare]

I'm really not seeing this. Something as massive as the OP article suggests would be extremely difficult to hide. I've heard absolutely nothing about something like this, ever, and I've done quite a bit of reading from a lot of sources on this period, nor heard anything from people I've talked to who lived through that period. Thousands starving? Possible,even probable. Seven million? Extremely unlikely. I'm gonna need to see more evidence than that article.

[Adi Shankara]

I'm really not seeing this. Something as massive as the OP article suggests would be extremely difficult to hide. I've heard absolutely nothing about something like this, ever, and I've done quite a bit of reading from a lot of sources on this period, nor heard anything from people I've talked to who lived through that period. Thousands starving? Possible,even probable. Seven million? Extremely unlikely. I'm gonna need to see more evidence than that article.

Do you remember the massacre of black students at the Orangeburg, South Carolina peaceful protest against the Jim Crow laws in 1968?

neither does America.

This country does a Very VERY good job of hiding it's sore points...which makes it all the more untrustworthy. we think we don't get propaganda like they did in any old dictatorship--truth is, we do.

[chegitz guevara]

A massacre is small. Four people being killed versus seven million dying of starvation [your words, not mine]. Hmmmm.

You keep pointing to little things (or things that were never really hidden, like the Great Flu), but you can't seem to grasp the starvation of seven million people in 1933 is not something that could be hidden in this country. If it happened, it would be so easy to prove that someone would have done so long before some Russian nationalist hoping to repair Russia "good" name.

[chegitz guevara]

If you go back to ...

... the OP and title of this thread and see what claim is made. "7 million people most likely starved in the US Great Depression during 1933"

[Dimentio]

A massacre is small. Four people being killed versus seven million dying of starvation [your words, not mine]. Hmmmm.

You keep pointing to little things (or things that were never really hidden, like the Great Flu), but you can't seem to grasp the starvation of seven million people in 1933 is not something that could be hidden in this country. If it happened, it would be so easy to prove that someone would have done so long before some Russian nationalist hoping to repair Russia "good" name.

Pravda and AboveTopSecret.com are probably equally good news sources. Except that ATS do not write gossip about Britney.

[chegitz guevara]

So can the Washington Times, and yet, I don't accept everything it writes uncritically for some reason. ;)

[Dimentio]

So can the Washington Times, and yet, I don't accept everything it writes uncritically for some reason. ;)

Nope, but that's a given. ^^

[khad]

... the OP and title of this thread and see what claim is made. "7 million people most likely starved in the US Great Depression during 1933"
As if you're qualified to tell us with your song and dance about millions starving to death in the Ukraine.

All this thread proves is that you don't know the first thing about famines and their demographic patterns.


You keep pointing to little things (or things that were never really hidden, like the Great Flu), but you can't seem to grasp the starvation of seven million people in 1933 is not something that could be hidden in this country. If it happened, it would be so easy to prove that someone would have done so long before some Russian nationalist hoping to repair Russia "good" name.
Now it's 7 million in one year, eh? And they're all starvation deaths too, oh boy.

Hate to disappoint, but the article merely specifies a population deficit over a period of one decade.

“According to the US statistics, the US lost not less than 8 million 553 thousand people from 1931 to 1940. Afterwards, population growth indices change twice instantly exactly between 1930-1931: the indices drop and stay on the same level for ten years. There can no explanation to this phenomenon found in the extensive text of the report by the US Department of Commerce “Statistical Abstract of the United States,” the author wrote.

[chegitz guevara]

As this thread proves, you can't read thread titles.

[khad]

As this thread proves, you can't read thread titles.
That was the pravda writer's interpretation, not Borisov's quoted words. You're really grasping at straws here.

What are you going to do, argue that millions starved to death in the Ukraine because the liberals always report it that way?

Oh wait, you already did that, didn't you? :lol:

[Robocommie]

Rather recently I was reading Chester Jordan's book on The Great Famine of the early 14th century, and he was himself very explicit in stating that most people who actually died in the famine did not die of starvation, they died of illnesses stemming from malnutrition. In fact he elaborates, and mentions the Famine likely also contributed to the high death toll during the Black Death which occured 15 or so years later, because children growing up or born in the Famine years didn't develop proper immunities.

In no way do I understand why deaths from famine don't "count" if they didn't literally die of starvation. Malnutrition deaths are routinely considered to be part of the crisis of famine. As Sankara said, if they'd been fed they wouldn't have died.

[Jazzhands]

I learned about the flu in grade school in the 1970s.

Also, one of my relatives died of the flu, so it was part of our family history. I have never, until this bs thread appeared, ever heard of this insane story.

I read about a huge number of flu-related deaths from that time in a public school chemistry class run by the evil bourgeois fascist conspiracy.:rolleyes: and no, Khad. Denying something completely is not "liberal" bullshit, it's just bullshit. regardless of what end of the spectrum it comes from. I want to know exactly what your definition of "liberal" is anyway.

[Jazzhands]

That was the pravda writer's interpretation, not Borisov's quoted words. You're really grasping at straws here.

What are you going to do, argue that millions starved to death in the Ukraine because the liberals always report it that way?

Oh wait, you already did that, didn't you? :lol:

wait, you're kidding me right?? jesus christ that didn't take long. what happened to denial being a disease for liberals?:rolleyes:

[chegitz guevara]

That was the pravda writer's interpretation, not Borisov's quoted words. You're really grasping at straws here.

What are you going to do, argue that millions starved to death in the Ukraine because the liberals always report it that way?

Oh wait, you already did that, didn't you? :lol:

You are a flying moron, aren't you?

[khad]

wait, you're kidding me right?? jesus christ that didn't take long. what happened to denial being a disease for liberals?:rolleyes:
Neither of you can obviously wrap your head around the fact that famine moribidity is mostly disease and not starvation. You idiots simply refuse to acknowledge that there could have been starvation/malnutrition-related deaths in the United States during the Depression.

During the great famine in Ireland, for every documented case who died of starvation or scurvy, there were 24 who died of secondary factors.

23.4% diarrhea, dysentery, gastroenteritis
7.0% cholera
24.5% fever
10.8% respiratory
4.1% starvation & scurvy
28.2% unknown/other

Political degenerates like Chegitz continue to insist that famine deaths are strictly starvation deaths, and that only a few thousand could have died in the United States.

Good thing most here have enough critical thinking skills to see that you people are applying ridiculously arbitrary double standards as well as a hilariously idiosyncratic understanding of the impact of famine on demographics.

[Adi Shankara]

I think what's funny the most about people who deny this type of thing is usually, they want a source that is obviously biased (like Washington Post, CNN, etc.), while at the same time, they decry the bias of American media for "not reporting everything important".

doesn't anyone see the irony in this?

[DaringMehring]

People did of starvation and related causes during the Great Depression but not 7 million. What a work like B. Borisov's is good for is showing how stupid demography-based death count modeling is.

[Adi Shankara]

People did of starvation and related causes during the Great Depression but not 7 million. What a work like B. Borisov's is good for is showing how stupid demography-based death count modeling is.

there is so much unreported shit in the USA, many people forget to remember that black students in NC were massacred for a peaceful campus protest long before Kent State, that the World Trade center was bombed in the 90's back when 9/11 was just a normal day, and Osama bin Laden was still an ally and was never charged with blowing up the embassy in Kenya (thats right: he has never been charged with anything related to the world trade center)

This country does a good job lying to it's people.

[chegitz guevara]

You are an idiot.

[Adi Shankara]

You are an idiot.

my word, what is wrong with you? what did I say to make you so red-faced angry? :confused:

[chegitz guevara]

The fact that you use the dictionary to prove your case, that you make bullshit claims, and then when point out they are bullshit, move the goals posts, and rely on the "god in the gaps" method to try and make the case for things that there's no evidence of happening: in short, because over the past few days, you've been a huge idiot.

[Adi Shankara]

The fact that you use the dictionary to prove your case, that you make bullshit claims, and then when point out they are bullshit, move the goals posts, and rely on the "god in the gaps" method to try and make the case for things that there's no evidence of happening: in short, because over the past few days, you've been a huge idiot.

the "claims" I made were made by a demographer. don't shoot the messenger.

[chegitz guevara]

So are you going to start posting threads about how climate change is a hoax, and claim no responsibility either?

[Adi Shankara]

So are you going to start posting threads about how climate change is a hoax, and claim no responsibility either?

Poor comparison. one has lots of documents behind it and such (although I sometimes am suspect that the data is used in attempt to curb 3rd world growth--afterall, they only want Africa, China and India to really lower their emissions), while the other has no one really talking about it at all. I don't know of any text book or anything that touches on the issue of hunger in the Great Depression. almost as if they don't want you to know anything about it.

[Jazzhands]

Poor comparison. one has lots of documents behind it and such (although I sometimes am suspect that the data is used in attempt to curb 3rd world growth--afterall, they only want Africa, China and India to really lower their emissions), while the other has no one really talking about it at all. I don't know of any text book or anything that touches on the issue of hunger in the Great Depression. almost as if they don't want you to know anything about it.

Ok, it seems like every side has been growing more and more ridiculous by the minute.

What do you mean, "don't know of any textbook?" What do you see at least twice in every single history book that covers that area? The Migrant Woman, the people standing in breadlines under a billboard about the American Way, the dead crops in the Dust Bowl and all those other photos. Nobody in America goes to breadlines unless they can't find food any other way.

Do I think it was as bad as OP report says? Look at where the source comes from and count the number of boobs. With every scantily-clad woman there (or gossip about said women), take off one point from source's credibility. Pravda is only slightly better than Maxim in terms of journalistic integrity. RT would be a good source, or Al Jazeera. But not Pravda.

[Nolan]

It's like if someone took a common Russian supermarket tabloid and gave it a more serious (and trollish) style - that's Pravda.

[Rusty Shackleford]

I don't see any drop.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/US_Population_Graph_-_1790_to_2000.svg/800px-US_Population_Graph_-_1790_to_2000.svg.png


if you look at the 30s, the population increase is actually far less than the surrounding decades. no matter the situation people always reproduce. and people die.

7 million very well could have died but it wont have a huge drop in the population while a few million more are born at the same time. just because there is growth does not mean there is no death, or mass death.

the growth in the 30s was stunted because of increased death, reduced immigration, increased emigration, and reduced a birthrate.

[Adi Shankara]

It's like if someone took a common Russian supermarket tabloid and gave it a more serious (and trollish) style - that's Pravda.

http://rt.com/prime-time/2008-10-23/Millions_of_people_vanished_in_US_-_historian.html

then here it is from Russia Today.

I could find alot more articles with this exact same source, but I don't know how many of you speak Russian...

[mollymae]

Why exactly does it matter what the cause of death was (starvation vs malnutrition)? Either way they were still victims of shortages from the Depression. Perhaps I'm missing something or not understanding.

[chegitz guevara]

Because the drop in growth rate is easily explained by people having fewer babies, as opposed to a secret famine.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Because the drop in growth rate is easily explained by people having fewer babies, as opposed to a secret famine.
i have not studied this at al, and that was just speculation from that piece of evidence.

there is no doubt in my mind though that many may have died because of not being able to eat. i dont know how many though.

[chegitz guevara]

Certainly, seven million could have died from starvation and it was all hushed up. Or, those seven million could have all been killed by unicorns. Or midgets with switch blades. Or by tiny rocks falling on them. We can speculate anything and then claim, but you'll never hear about it, because they shushed it all up. We know this government lies! It's typical conspiracy theory reasoning.

Occam's razor. The drop in population growth is most easily explained by a phenomenon we know happened, that people stopped having babies.

[Rusty Shackleford]

well i looked it up and there was a drop of roughly 1 child per family less birthrate than the 20s.

[Adi Shankara]

Occam's razor. The drop in population growth is most easily explained by a phenomenon we know happened, that people stopped having babies.

Occam's razor isn't irrefutable, and besides, 7 million people who were there on one census dissappeared by the next. people who were already born.

[Nolan]

http://rt.com/prime-time/2008-10-23/Millions_of_people_vanished_in_US_-_historian.html

then here it is from Russia Today.

I could find alot more articles with this exact same source, but I don't know how many of you speak Russian...

Russia Today is about as reliable as Fox. I compare it to the pro-zionist media, because Russia is always some misunderstood victim according to RT.

No one knows how many people died because of the Great Depression. It could have been millions like the article claims, or it could have been in the thousands. Either way it would be a blip on the demographic data, like khad said.

[Jazzhands]

Russia Today is about as reliable as Fox. I compare it to the pro-zionist media, because Russia is always some misunderstood victim according to RT.

No one knows how many people died because of the Great Depression. It could have been millions like the article claims, or it could have been in the thousands. Either way it would be a blip on the demographic data, like khad said.

Well, a lot of times Russia is propagandized in American media, and America is propagandized in Russian media too. I like RT as a counterpoint to American media. Now I can get bullshit from both sides of the story as opposed to just the American side.:lol: It's all about regions. News from America is the exception because the state of American journalism is...well...nonexistent.:mad: It's all about analysis of whether or not something is convincing as opposed to whether or not it is true. Muckraking is dead in America.

If I need actual news for my country, I go to the BBC. It's truly sad when the country you seceded from has more accurate data on your country than you do.

[RadioRaheem84]

BBC is probably the best of the bourgoise media and that's not saying much.

[redSHARP]

BBC is probably the best of the bourgoise media and that's not saying much.


yeah, at least it doesnt have Lindsy Lohan as a major story

[Blackscare]

... the OP and title of this thread and see what claim is made. "7 million people most likely starved in the US Great Depression during 1933"

You really are just splitting hairs here, aren't you? OH NOES Sankara didn't word the title precisely enough for me, so I'll play a semantics game and completely ignore any argument that most deaths related to famine aren't in fact blatant cases of people starving to death!

Because it only counts as a starvation death if they don't contract a related disease beforehand! Those dysentery guys are just posers, man!

[Pretty Flaco]

Why is everyone arguing so heatedly over the number of deaths? Regardless of whether or not it was millions or hundreds of thousands, mass death is still disgusting. Are you guys trying to say it's "worse" because of it or am I missing something here?

[Blackscare]

nevermind, wrong thread lol

[chegitz guevara]

Occam's razor isn't irrefutable, and besides, 7 million people who were there on one census dissappeared by the next. people who were already born.

Wrong

[chegitz guevara]

Why is everyone arguing so heatedly over the number of deaths? Regardless of whether or not it was millions or hundreds of thousands, mass death is still disgusting. Are you guys trying to say it's "worse" because of it or am I missing something here?

Because when some leftists start going around and saying the stupidest shit, it discredits all of us. Oh, 5,000 prisoners were executed in the bayou after Katrina! oh noes! 9/11 was an inside job! Seven million people starved to death in 1931! Augh!

It's hard enough to be taken seriously when you use facts and logic to prove communism is the way to go. Then you get some knuckle head coming along spouting pure assertions that cannot be proven, and any headway you made is all undone.


You really are just splitting hairs here, aren't you? OH NOES Sankara didn't word the title precisely enough for me, so I'll play a semantics game and completely ignore any argument that most deaths related to famine aren't in fact blatant cases of people starving to death!

Because it only counts as a starvation death if they don't contract a related disease beforehand! Those dysentery guys are just posers, man!

I'm not the one playing the semantics game. Khad, and then Sankara, are. Even if most people who die from starvation actually die from other factors, they are trying to claim that these seven million actually died from other problems which were exacerbated by malnutrition.

Now, it's true, starvation is a type of malnutrition, but so is being overweight. So what they are doing is claiming that because A is a subset of B, that we're really talking about B, not A, when in fact, they were talking about A and got shown they were wrong.

When people die of secondary effects of starvation, they are dying of starvation. If you're so starved that you die of falling down and breaking your bones, you died of starvation. And no one can show us any evidence of a famine so severe in the U.S. in 1931 that seven million people ended up looking like the people in those pictures I showed.

[Nolan]

Um, we've already established that some people died of starvation. They certainly looked like those photos.

[chegitz guevara]

Seven million, CC? Really?

[Nolan]

Seven million, CC? Really?

I really doubt it, but that's not the point. The point is that those pictures don't mean anything since anyone could have taken pictures of homeless starving people in New York and they would have looked the same.

[chegitz guevara]

If they could have, why didn't they?

And it is the fucking point.

[Nolan]

If they could have, why didn't they?

And it is the fucking point.

What exactly are you trying to argue now? That they didn't because no one was really starving in the U.S.?

[chegitz guevara]

No one here, yet, has claimed that some people in the U.S. didn't starve to death during the Great Depression. We have numbers for New York City, for example, in the very low hundreds. Without hard data, the best we can reasonably do is extrapolate from the data we have, and assume, maybe, ten thousand people, out of 160 million, died from starvation or starvation related causes in that decade.

What the OP did, and what Sankara, Khad, and others keep attempting to do is claim that a demographic slowing of population growth is really seven million people in the U.S. died from starvation in the year 1931, with no photographs, no mass graves uncovered, no one's grandparents telling them about all the starving people, no communist news papers talking about all the starving people, nothing. BTW, mass graves are uncovered from time to time in the U.S. In Chicago in the 80s they found one for victims of the Chicago Fire. About ten to fifteen years ago, they found one of the Draft Rioters in NYC from 1863.

At the same time, we know from surveys that during the Great Depression, people had fewer children. "Mystery" solved, except that it was never a mystery in the first place. We always knew that the population growth slowed in the 30s because people had less children. But along comes some Russian claiming that, NO! the missing seven million people can only be explained by a secret famine the government cleverly hid from everyone, but only he was clever enough to figure it out, and we've got some clueless idiots running around defending the notion.

There has been real mass starvation in the U.S. before. During the Civil War the people of Vicksburg were reduced to eating dogs, cats, rats, and eventually digging up corpses before they surrendered. The commander of Andersonville was executed for starving his P.O.W.s American Indians repeatedly suffered from starvation. There is documented evidence for all of that. Let's ignore real historical events in the U.S., and go around shouting our fools heads off echoing some Russians with an inferiority complex about Stalin.

[Adi Shankara]

What the OP did, and what Sankara, Khad, and others keep attempting to do is claim that a demographic slowing of population growth is really seven million people in the U.S. died from starvation in the year 1931, with no photographs, no mass graves uncovered, no one's grandparents telling them about all the starving people, no communist news papers talking about all the starving people, nothing. BTW, mass graves are uncovered from time to time in the U.S. In Chicago in the 80s they found one for victims of the Chicago Fire. About ten to fifteen years ago, they found one of the Draft Rioters in NYC from 1863.


Your post is clearly nonsense, and proves you didn't read the article as it said people Disappeared from the census. not that the population was dropping, but that people literally disappeared.

also, for you to say that we only want to uncover the miserable lies of US superiority is the result of a "Stalin inferiority complex" is really insulting to those who do fight for the truth. if people like you were in charge of leftist movements, we'd still be thinking the war in Iraq was justified, and Obama was an ally.

[chegitz guevara]

Your post is clearly nonsense, and proves you didn't read the article as it said people Disappeared from the census. not that the population was dropping, but that people literally disappeared.

also, for you to say that we only want to uncover the miserable lies of US superiority is the result of a "Stalin inferiority complex" is really insulting to those who do fight for the truth. if people like you were in charge of leftist movements, we'd still be thinking the war in Iraq was justified, and Obama was an ally.

Wait, wait, what did YOU title this thread again? Hmmm, what was it, let me see, oh, yeah, it's right there, at the top of the page!

7 million people most likely starved in the US Great Depression during 1933

starved ≠ disappeared

Just admit you got taken in by bullshit, instead of trying to figure out some way to make it possible that you were right.