Sobriety

[Kuppo Shakur]

I have recently been thinking of what it means to be "sober", and I have reached the conclusion that humans are rarely ever truly sober.
To be sober is to view the world around you in a completely rational and uninfluenced frame of mind. Obviously, psychoactives influence your perception of reality, thus decreasing your sobriety. But aren't all mental states just a result of whatever chemicals are being released into your brain, whether drug induced or not? What would you say of your sobriety when you are tired, nervous, surprised, depressed, horny, etc.? How often is your perception truly unaffected by extra chemicals in your brain?
More importantly: Is this just common sense?:blink:

[ChrisK]

I have recently been thinking of what it means to be "sober", and I have reached the conclusion that humans are rarely ever truly sober.
To be sober is to view the world around you in a completely rational and uninfluenced frame of mind. Obviously, psychoactives influence your perception of reality, thus decreasing your sobriety. But aren't all mental states just a result of whatever chemicals are being released into your brain, whether drug induced or not? What would you say of your sobriety when you are tired, nervous, surprised, depressed, horny, etc.? How often is your perception truly unaffected by extra chemicals in your brain?
More importantly: Is this just common sense?:blink:

That makes no sense. Sober, in an ordinary sense, means to be not under the influcence of an external substance (ie, drugs). You are making sober into some abstract concept that exists on its own outside of material reality.

The other things are just internal changes in perception, not sobriety.

[Hit The North]

I think this is essentially a scientific question, although I agree with Chris that the question is a bit meaningless.

Moved anyway, to see what our resident science bods make of it.

[Kuppo Shakur]

That makes no sense. Sober, in an ordinary sense, means to be not under the influcence of an external substance (ie, drugs). You are making sober into some abstract concept that exists on its own outside of material reality.

The other things are just internal changes in perception, not sobriety.
What I'm saying is, is that it is all just chemicals. When you smoke marijuana, chemicals make you high. When someone antagonizes you, chemicals make you angry.
I think you are the one thinking from outside material reality. You seem to think of emotions as some kind of spiritual reaction, and not just chemicals that alter your perception to make you act a certain way.
How exactly would you describe these "internal" changes in perception?

[Glenn Beck]

You were really stoned when you posted this weren't you?

But yeah, it's true, everything that happens to us affects our biochemistry in some way, not just ingesting a psychoactive drug. It's just another part of being in the world and also part of it.

[ChrisK]

What I'm saying is, is that it is all just chemicals. When you smoke marijuana, chemicals make you high. When someone antagonizes you, chemicals make you angry.
I think you are the one thinking from outside material reality. You seem to think of emotions as some kind of spiritual reaction, and not just chemicals that alter your perception to make you act a certain way.
How exactly would you describe these "internal" changes in perception?

Where did you get that? I never said, nor implied, that emotions aren't caused by chemical changes in the body. I said that sobriety is defined as not taking in external substances that will alter perception. You are turning a word, sobriety, into something that has some sort of metaphysical existance outside of human communication. That is an idealist proposition, not a materialist one.

[pastradamus]

How often is your perception truly unaffected by extra chemicals in your brain?
More importantly: Is this just common sense?:blink:

Perhaps the Original post is a bit abstract but even still, I believe djp is asking about the effects of chemicals on the brain which is a valid point.Well when one takes into account the massive amounts of chemicals in our foods, the large amount of sugars and salts we consume on a daily basis, the toxic chemicals in our ecosystem, the drugs, the alcohol and the affect of stress
on the human mind (usually as a result of capitalism ie Work) I must agree that we are rarely ever truly without the influence of some external chemical in our system.

I think you'll like this quote: Wilde on Absinthe

‘After the first glass of Absinthe’, wrote Oscar Wilde, ‘you see things as you wish they were. After the second you see them as they are not. Finally, you see things as they really are, and that is the most horrible thing in the world’

[ComradeOm]

I have recently been thinking of what it means to be "sober", and I have reached the conclusion that humans are rarely ever truly soberWell yes, that would be knurd - a state of being almost anti-drunk

[Kuppo Shakur]

Where did you get that? I never said, nor implied, that emotions aren't caused by chemical changes in the body. I said that sobriety is defined as not taking in external substances that will alter perception. You are turning a word, sobriety, into something that has some sort of metaphysical existance outside of human communication. That is an idealist proposition, not a materialist one.
I'm not trying to redefine what "sobriety" is. I would say that usually when people think of their sobriety, they don't necessarily focus on the "substances" they are putting into their body, but they refer to how chemicals are altering their basic view of the world. As I said, any change to your perception is caused by chemicals, so what is the difference between perception being altered by "external substances", and perception being altered by an intense emotion?

[Hit The North]

djp

If you don't understand the difference between being sober and being drunk or high, then I hope you don't have a driving licence.

[ChrisK]

I'm not trying to redefine what "sobriety" is. I would say that usually when people think of their sobriety, they don't necessarily focus on the "substances" they are putting into their body, but they refer to how chemicals are altering their basic view of the world. As I said, any change to your perception is caused by chemicals, so what is the difference between perception being altered by "external substances", and perception being altered by an intense emotion?

Take the example of an AA meeting. Someone says "I've been sober for 2 years," they mean no alcohol for 2 years. Sobriety is indeed, in its ordinary usage, meant to be about external substances. If I tell a cop, "I'm sober" I'm talking about external substances I could have consumed.

So indeed, you are trying to redefine a word to include intense emotion, as well as an external substance.

[ChrisK]

Good fucking god, Bob and I are agreeing.:blink:

I need a screen shot of this

[Hit The North]

Good fucking god, Bob and I are agreeing.:blink:

I need a screen shot of this

Yes, you could print it out and hang it on your wall as a certificate proving that you were right at least once in your life :lol:

[ChrisK]

Yes, you could print it out and hang it on your wall as a certificate proving that you were right at least once in your life :lol:

Might as well print out the SWP thread; make you right twice in your life:thumbup1:

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

To be sober is to view the world around you in a completely rational and uninfluenced frame of mind.

I think this is the nub of the issue. While some humans try their best, none of them are completely rational and in an influenced state of mind. In fact, I reckon a truly rational intelligence would be intensely disturbing and alien to most humans.