PBS - The Hugo Chavez Show

[Conquer or Die]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/hugochavez/view/

Obviously slanted against Chavez, but the problem is that that's more than enough for the ineffectual left to shake with bellicosity and outrage. Flat denials of the truth (RadioRaheem calling me a liar for correctly pointing out that Chavez dodged a question on the arresting of political opponents) are symptomatic of laziness and depression - the external locus of control factor.

Chavez speaks with great authority on many things he knows little about while he revels in his own popularity. He is little different than Bush or Obama and their weak kindling who do nothing but sing praises and tow the party line.

A good example of the inability for honesty can be seen on both sides - Chavez attacks the USA while the Venezuelan economy depends on the USA's importing of its oil. Hypocritical and snide it may be, it doesn't detract from the fact that the USA is equally dependent on the large amounts of oil it can buy from Venezuela (which is a point untouched by PBS). It's a dual relationship that people can't seem to shake off and so they argue around, secretly plotting and planning each other's downfall instead of forming a correct synthesis of the situation.

In many ways this whole thing boils down to "might makes right" and that isn't a substitute for honesty. A good deal of "comrades" lack honesty on these forums, and as a result they become ineffectual mass of cells without the ability to affect anything. I see that happening all too frequently and without the slightest brush of a decent, original thought that is constructive.

It's one thing to criticize capitalism, which is easy and within the realm of reality, and it's another thing to fix it.

[Dean]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/hugochavez/view/

Obviously slanted against Chavez, but the problem is that that's more than enough for the ineffectual left to shake with bellicosity and outrage. Flat denials of the truth (RadioRaheem calling me a liar for correctly pointing out that Chavez dodged a question on the arresting of political opponents) are symptomatic of laziness and depression - the external locus of control factor.

Chavez speaks with great authority on many things he knows little about while he revels in his own popularity. He is little different than Bush or Obama and their weak kindling who do nothing but sing praises and tow the party line.

A good example of the inability for honesty can be seen on both sides - Chavez attacks the USA while the Venezuelan economy depends on the USA's importing of its oil. Hypocritical and snide it may be, it doesn't detract from the fact that the USA is equally dependent on the large amounts of oil it can buy from Venezuela (which is a point untouched by PBS). It's a dual relationship that people can't seem to shake off and so they argue around, secretly plotting and planning each other's downfall instead of forming a correct synthesis of the situation.
So, I am dependent on the sale of my labor; I guess that means I can't criticize my employer.


In many ways this whole thing boils down to "might makes right" and that isn't a substitute for honesty. A good deal of "comrades" lack honesty on these forums, and as a result they become ineffectual mass of cells without the ability to affect anything. I see that happening all too frequently and without the slightest brush of a decent, original thought that is constructive.

It's one thing to criticize capitalism, which is easy and within the realm of reality, and it's another thing to fix it.
We don't want to fix it. We want to destroy it.

Why is it that actual arguments are so hard to gleen out of your posts? What value does describing the left / forum members as "depressed, dishonest, lazy" have for you?

You have a penchant to enshroud anecdotal, petty "criticism" in flowery, grandiose language, as if we we to really think that your argument with RadioRaheem represented some titanic struggle of the left.

But you're just a smarmy kid who thinks attacking leftist positions from no clear edifice of his own makes him look "smart" or something. Thankfully, nobody seems to take you seriously.

[Conquer or Die]

So, I am dependent on the sale of my labor; I guess that means I can't criticize my employer.

Yeah, I point that out, thanks.



We don't want to fix it. We want to destroy it.

Why is it that actual arguments are so hard to gleen out of your posts? What value does describing the left / forum members as "depressed, dishonest, lazy" have for you?

You have a penchant to enshroud anecdotal, petty "criticism" in flowery, grandiose language, as if we we to really think that your argument with RadioRaheem represented some titanic struggle of the left.

But you're just a smarmy kid who thinks attacking leftist positions from no clear edifice of his own makes him look "smart" or something. Thankfully, nobody seems to take you seriously.

You don't make arguments most of the time, and when you do they are pretty simple and usually shaky on factual grounds.

My criticism of the communist revleft is this, which I've seen on this forum, is that there is no accountability for answering the questions. There is no doubt a significant problem with capitalism, but this alone isn't sufficient to produce an answer to the problems. Now, I don't want to paint a broad brush and it seems like the real productive discussion occurs on other parts of the forum and with other members besides the trolls of Opposing Ideologies but it seems to me that the purpose of this forum was to educate, and while the education can perfectly recite Das Kapital and Left Speaker X on the well founded cyclical nature of capitalism and its discontents, it falls apart when it comes time to propose a solution. When a solution gets criticized we have to venture into nonsensical or lying territory in order to facilitate feelings of success opposed to actual success.

RadioRaheem, that sick human being, can't actually discern when somebody or someone dodged a question in a debate. In the above film it shows how Hugo Chavez consistently dodges legitimate questions with nonsense and flowery language and speeches and emotion - all the pathetic tools of windbag politicians. Now of course we can analyze the hypocrisy of PBS and the questions it must produce, but just doing that doesn't detract from the inherent truth that was displayed.

You manage to speak without saying much. Revleft History manages to speak little and say less. A good majority of the people posting in this specific forum are inequipped or unwilling to engage in meaningful discussion or they go off on tangents about fifty strands of libertarianism.

I attacked what I saw as a flaw in the debating method used by many people on this forum and you attacked me for being grandiose. Why don't you put on a thinking cap and start making real criticisms instead of thinking that I'm trying to be smart. If you want to reject me out of hand then fine, but don't get butthurt and spill your mess for post count status or self satisfaction.

[Dean]

Yeah, I point that out, thanks.
Really? Your original post simply states that both parties arte beholden to each other - not that Venezuela (or workers) have any more or less right to criticize the other party - a right which you've already rejected.




You don't make arguments most of the time, and when you do they are pretty simple and usually shaky on factual grounds.

My criticism of the communist revleft is this, which I've seen on this forum, is that there is no accountability for answering the questions. There is no doubt a significant problem with capitalism, but this alone isn't sufficient to produce an answer to the problems. Now, I don't want to paint a broad brush and it seems like the real productive discussion occurs on other parts of the forum and with other members besides the trolls of Opposing Ideologies but it seems to me that the purpose of this forum was to educate, and while the education can perfectly recite Das Kapital and Left Speaker X on the well founded cyclical nature of capitalism and its discontents, it falls apart when it comes time to propose a solution. When a solution gets criticized we have to venture into nonsensical or lying territory in order to facilitate feelings of success opposed to actual success.

RadioRaheem, that sick human being, can't actually discern when somebody or someone dodged a question in a debate. In the above film it shows how Hugo Chavez consistently dodges legitimate questions with nonsense and flowery language and speeches and emotion - all the pathetic tools of windbag politicians. Now of course we can analyze the hypocrisy of PBS and the questions it must produce, but just doing that doesn't detract from the inherent truth that was displayed.

You manage to speak without saying much. Revleft History manages to speak little and say less. A good majority of the people posting in this specific forum are inequipped or unwilling to engage in meaningful discussion or they go off on tangents about fifty strands of libertarianism.

I attacked what I saw as a flaw in the debating method used by many people on this forum and you attacked me for being grandiose. Why don't you put on a thinking cap and start making real criticisms instead of thinking that I'm trying to be smart. If you want to reject me out of hand then fine, but don't get butthurt and spill your mess for post count status or self satisfaction.
How pretentious of you. What have you suggested, in any case?

Your post was a repeat of a rather lame criticism. In fact, the consistent refusal by mainstream politicians and media figures to address real issues of power is much more prevalent than any similar refusal on these forums. Nor does this represent a unique or fundamental criticism of the debate here.

What is ridiculous about you is how excessive you are. In the first back in forth with you, I was surprised for you to characterize me as "the worst poster on Revleft." Now you claim that RadioRaheem is "that sick human being." Childish bullshit. Get over yourself - a minor argument on a leftist forum about another politician's refusal to address a point doesn't justify characterization as "sick." Nor did my criticism of the liberal hack Maher reflect on me as "the worst poster."

Your post seems like pure flamebait. Furthermore, it was posted solely in order to criticize leftists on some incomprehensible basis, with two points: that we don't propose solution (we have, but I see none from you anyhow) and that RadioRaheem was not accepting a fact about an interview with Chavez. This is laughable. Skooma Addict and Havet provide more interesting discussions, if only because their posts represent real arguments rather than your triteness which responds only to petty differences in form, apparently.

[RadioRaheem84]

WTF, Conquer or Die? I am lucky I stumbled into this ridiculous thread to find you calling me a sick human being for calling you a liar (which you are). Maybe you should re-post what I said which in effect was that he eventually answered the bias reporter. Why couldn't you just answer me back on the thread?


A good example of the inability for honesty can be seen on both sides - Chavez attacks the USA while the Venezuelan economy depends on the USA's importing of its oil. Hypocritical and snide it may be, it doesn't detract from the fact that the USA is equally dependent on the large amounts of oil it can buy from Venezuela (which is a point untouched by PBS). It's a dual relationship that people can't seem to shake off and so they argue around, secretly plotting and planning each other's downfall instead of forming a correct synthesis of the situation.Chavez admits to this too. You're not pointing out anything new.


In many ways this whole thing boils down to "might makes right" and that isn't a substitute for honesty. A good deal of "comrades" lack honesty on these forums, and as a result they become ineffectual mass of cells without the ability to affect anything. I see that happening all too frequently and without the slightest brush of a decent, original thought that is constructive.You're weird. I cannot believe you held on to a creepy grudge like that. It seems more like you created this whole thread to call me out.

[RGacky3]

it falls apart when it comes time to propose a solution. When a solution gets criticized we have to venture into nonsensical or lying territory in order to facilitate feelings of success opposed to actual success.

Its not a matter of just a solution, this is'nt something where you can just think of a solution and then its ok, its class warfare, its power structure that need to be fought against.

Its not about finding another system and then implimenting it, its about fighting the ruling class and empowering the working class, its about fighting for democracy and against plutocracy, THATS what the solution is, but it takes time and its done in steps and differently depending on the situation. What might be a great solution for venezuela might not be in the US, maybe in the US we need to fight for a public option and for strengthening public control over financial instutions or strengthening unions, in Venezuela maybe its something different, in Bolivia maybe its rights for indigenous people and land rights, maybe in Palestine its ending the occupation.

[Conquer or Die]

WTF, Conquer or Die? I am lucky I stumbled into this ridiculous thread to find you calling me a sick human being for calling you a liar (which you are). Maybe you should re-post what I said which in effect was that he eventually answered the bias reporter. Why couldn't you just answer me back on the thread?

You told me this, "Yes he did! Stop lying."

That is not an argument, that is emotional butthurt. This above video shows more emotional butthurt por Las Chavistas and how it seriously worsens any prospects for legitimate socialist revolution. It shows a man in the superficial ranting on and on without doing much of anything to help his people.


Chavez admits to this too. You're not pointing out anything new.

I'm pointing out what the video left out.


You're weird. I cannot believe you held on to a creepy grudge like that. It seems more like you created this whole thread to call me out.

It's not a "creepy grudge" it's just that I find somebody like you incomprehensibly thick and empty headed. I hope you actually watch the video above and try to think about it instead of how "biased" it is.

[Conquer or Die]

Really? Your original post simply states that both parties arte beholden to each other - not that Venezuela (or workers) have any more or less right to criticize the other party - a right which you've already rejected.

Are you kidding me? Where did I "reject" the right for Venezuelan "workers" to criticize anything that relates to their labor? I pointed out the duality between the systems. We're basically on the same page here and you're trying to argue like you're saying something, you're not, we agree, shut up.


Your post was a repeat of a rather lame criticism. In fact, the consistent refusal by mainstream politicians and media figures to address real issues of power is much more prevalent than any similar refusal on these forums. Nor does this represent a unique or fundamental criticism of the debate here.

So because it's not a unique criticism it's not a criticism at all?


What is ridiculous about you is how excessive you are. In the first back in forth with you, I was surprised for you to characterize me as "the worst poster on Revleft." Now you claim that RadioRaheem is "that sick human being." Childish bullshit. Get over yourself - a minor argument on a leftist forum about another politician's refusal to address a point doesn't justify characterization as "sick." Nor did my criticism of the liberal hack Maher reflect on me as "the worst poster."

Criticisms that hurt people's feelings are also not criticisms?


Your post seems like pure flamebait. Furthermore, it was posted solely in order to criticize leftists on some incomprehensible basis, with two points: that we don't propose solution (we have, but I see none from you anyhow) and that RadioRaheem was not accepting a fact about an interview with Chavez. This is laughable. Skooma Addict and Havet provide more interesting discussions, if only because their posts represent real arguments rather than your triteness which responds only to petty differences in form, apparently.

You don't propose Solutions, this much is true. I wanted a thread on solutions to the problem and it got turned into dog shit thanks to certain posters.

I posted two accurate comments on Chavez's BBC interview and was attacked for speaking the truth because one person didn't want to hear it.

I was attacked in the Bill Maher thread because I suggested honesty, not feelings or language, was more important.

My problem is with the Revleft OI community - specifically the unrestricted "communists" who hang out here. I'm saying you're all pretty pathetic in your argumentation and honesty. I'm saying if you actually gave a shit, not about communism, but about anything, then you wouldn't continue in the cyclical, obnoxious manner that you manage to do.

Obviously this a generality and it's really more geared towards certain people. I think it's quite clear that it's really just about two moderators and a handful of unrestricted (one restricted) member who can't seem to act honestly and without butthurt.

[Barry Lyndon]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/hugochavez/view/

Obviously slanted against Chavez, but the problem is that that's more than enough for the ineffectual left to shake with bellicosity and outrage. Flat denials of the truth (RadioRaheem calling me a liar for correctly pointing out that Chavez dodged a question on the arresting of political opponents) are symptomatic of laziness and depression - the external locus of control factor.

Chavez speaks with great authority on many things he knows little about while he revels in his own popularity. He is little different than Bush or Obama and their weak kindling who do nothing but sing praises and tow the party line.

A good example of the inability for honesty can be seen on both sides - Chavez attacks the USA while the Venezuelan economy depends on the USA's importing of its oil. Hypocritical and snide it may be, it doesn't detract from the fact that the USA is equally dependent on the large amounts of oil it can buy from Venezuela (which is a point untouched by PBS). It's a dual relationship that people can't seem to shake off and so they argue around, secretly plotting and planning each other's downfall instead of forming a correct synthesis of the situation.

In many ways this whole thing boils down to "might makes right" and that isn't a substitute for honesty. A good deal of "comrades" lack honesty on these forums, and as a result they become ineffectual mass of cells without the ability to affect anything. I see that happening all too frequently and without the slightest brush of a decent, original thought that is constructive.

It's one thing to criticize capitalism, which is easy and within the realm of reality, and it's another thing to fix it.

I watched the video and Hugo Chavez did answer the question about political opponents, so RadioRaheem was right to call you a liar.

As for the documentary about Hugo Chavez, it was certainly interesting and informative in places, but ultimately amounted to the usual imperialist hit piece. So Hugo Chavez belittles and shouts down his political opponents, so what? Show me a politician who doesn't.

Contrast this to Colombia, where journalists, trade unionists, and politicians who criticize the regime don't get called bad names, they get tortured and murdered. But I'm sure the fact that Colombia gets hundreds of millions of dollars to serve as a forward base of US imperialism in South America has nothing to do with why we aren't seeing a PBS documentary about them.

[Conquer or Die]

I watched the video and Hugo Chavez did answer the question about political opponents, so RadioRaheem was right to call you a liar.

He gesticulates and writhes when the question is asked and then points out that he laughs at opposition cartoons. He then throws one bureaucrat underneath the bus after about two minutes of dodging the question. If you were honest with yourself then you'd realize what a dodge it was. This video outlines much of the same criticism of Chavez - a man afraid of the truth who will dodge questions and turn them around on people while claiming some popular power.


As for the documentary about Hugo Chavez, it was certainly interesting and informative in places, but ultimately amounted to the usual imperialist hit piece. So Hugo Chavez belittles and shouts down his political opponents, so what? Show me a politician who doesn't.

It actually shows Hugo Chavez shouting down his own people and refusing to take responsibility for anything. A community organizer who actually believed in Chavista revolution tried to put in some factually accurate feedback and he was summarily dismissed by Chavez. Now you're lying to yourself and being a baby when you whine about "Imperialist" influence.


Contrast this to Colombia, where journalists, trade unionists, and politicians who criticize the regime don't get called bad names, they get tortured and murdered. But I'm sure the fact that Colombia gets hundreds of millions of dollars to serve as a forward base of US imperialism in South America has nothing to do with why we aren't seeing a PBS documentary about them.

Stalin was better than Hitler. Hitler can get thrown under the bus and the system, the problems with the system, can still remain. Colombia's disgusting system of comprador capitalism is not defended because of Chavez's failures, but Columbia's failures don't amount to a defense of Venezuela, and they shouldn't.

Until you can stop believing in fairy tales then you can't hope to amount to anything respectable in argument. It's a lazy tool to bring out the compare/contrast piece and expect it to magically make arguments.

Chavez is not criticized by his own people. His own people are suffering and he's laughing it up.

[RGacky3]

He then throws one bureaucrat underneath the bus after about two minutes of dodging the question. If you were honest with yourself then you'd realize what a dodge it was.

If you actually listen to what happened with the bureacrat and look at the background, if it happened in the US it would be no question. Also the fact that they are using a guy who criticized Chavez AFTER he was fired (really? [sarcasm]), and was convicted by a citizen court of corruption, just shows how desperate they are to try and derail the guy.

What do you think would happen if someone partook in a military coup in the United States?


It actually shows Hugo Chavez shouting down his own people and refusing to take responsibility for anything. A community organizer who actually believed in Chavista revolution tried to put in some factually accurate feedback and he was summarily dismissed by Chavez. Now you're lying to yourself and being a baby when you whine about "Imperialist" influence.


Its obvious the documentary was showing things totally out of context and nit picking, you have to be serious, he's a politician yeah, but he's better than the vast vast majority of capitalist politicians in Latin America or even North America. Remember the shot of people shooting from a bridge? How it was edited to make it look like they were shooting at protesters?


Until you can stop believing in fairy tales then you can't hope to amount to anything respectable in argument. It's a lazy tool to bring out the compare/contrast piece and expect it to magically make arguments.

No one is saying Chavez is a savior or gonna fix venezuela or make communism. But at least he's one of the few politicians that actually support real democracy and actually work for his people and not corporations, the rich and the United States.


His own people are suffering and he's laughing it up.

Yeah there's poverty in Venezuela, because its a poor country, but unlike most politicians anywhere he's actually helping it out and making it better.