Log in

View Full Version : Getting closer to real democracy



Kotze
15th July 2010, 17:46
Here are some ideas how to curb the power of the rich and get us closer to real democracy.


THE PROBLEM OF THE WASTED VOTE

People don't want to waste their votes for candidates that have no chance of winning. Being established and having a big campaign budget gives the impression of having a good chance. The perception among the voters whether a candidate has a good chance at winning is a self-fulfilling prophecy. How to reduce the problem of the wasted vote? It is mathematically proven that, lotteries aside, selection methods that are completely free of situations with non-winnning candidates affecting who wins are impossible (Kenneth Arrow's impossibility theorem). There are methods that come closer to the ideal than others. The ideal of frictionless machines is not attainable, but that doesn't imply that all machines are equally inefficient.

There are many single-winner methods that are better than Plurality Voting in that regard (like the Schulze Method), but they are also harder to explain and count. I'm talking about those ranking methods that satisfy a criterion called Mutual Majority: If a majority of the voters ranks a specific set of options above the rest, the winning option should come from that set. Such a method could be used in small committees, but use in big-scale elections with counting by hand is problematic. For these single-winner elections I suggest a simple improvement, Approval Voting. It works like this: Every voter can mark any number of candidates as approved. The candidate receiving most approval marks wins.


THE PROBLEM OF APPARATCHIKS

Another suggestion to reduce the problem of the wasted vote is to use a proportional voting system. The thought of a system where voters mark one party and that party gets seats in proportion to the votes received is not very appealing if the order of getting seats is determined by the top of the party hierarchy. A system that gives more power to voters is called open list; voters mark candidates, parties receive seats according to votes received, those within the party who got the most votes get the seats.

Even less dependent on parties are proportional ranking methods: Voters rank candidates, sets of candidates that are ranked above the rest by a certain percentage of the voters receive seats according to the size of that percentage. Counting these ballots by hand is problematic or impossible when it comes to elections with many seats. But a simplified version can easily be counted by hand: Each candidate publishes a ranking at a set date before the election, voters mark one candidate, that candidate's ranking gets multiplied by the number of votes received.


THE PROBLEM OF GETTING ON THE BALLOT

A change in election methods is pointless if the hurdle to get on the ballot is so high to effectively block out competition to the established parties and candidates. At the time of this writing, the rules of running for Mayor of London literally require that a candidate has to provide a certain amount of money that he won't see again if he receives votes below a specific threshold. This is a transparent case of the rich blocking competition. A more common hurdle is to require a certain amount of signings. While such a rule doesn't state that you need money to run, it amounts to the same.

Blocking competition is very popular with the rich, especially if it is done in an underhanded manner. It can happen that pressure from below for electoral reform might result in a system that guards the establishment just as well as before, if an improvement of voting rules is accompanied by quietly raising the hurdle for becoming a candidate. Therefore, a movement from below that aims at improving the electoral process should also aim at lowering this hurdle. At least some places on the ballot should be assigned by lot.


THE PROBLEM OF THE MEDIA FILTER

Media corporations tell us to rely on them for reporting on issues and candidates. These institutions are not organized in a democratic way, but hierarchical, that is, headed by the rich. The distinction between ads and content is formal. In reality, the threat of withdrawing ads is about economic survival, hence it affects the content. Newspapers get more funding from ads than from what readers pay upfront. I don't need to tell you about TV.

The media can be made democratic by technological development that allows distribution of media created by the non-rich. Bringing the internet to everyone has utmost importance. Reducing the extent of copyright also reduces power concentration. What can be done to address the media problem as it relates to voting is this: The candidates directly face a randomly-selected jury that asks them questions. The interviews get published. The jury makes a recommendation whom to vote for that will appear on the ballot. For that recommendation, one of the complex voting methods mentioned in the beginning could be used.


THE LONG RUN

If the jury recommendations for single-seat elections coincide time and again with the voters' decisions, they can replace them. Political parties, changed from monolithic structures into more loose associations, will be reduced to merely making competing proposals for laws and budget allocations, with lottery-selected juries being the ultimate deciders.

Seer Travis Truman
21st July 2010, 03:34
Here are some ideas how to curb the power of the rich and get us closer to real democracy.

The primary reason why there is no Truth-based democracy is simply because all the citizen-slaves are brainwashed into believing in their specific society and culture. It does not matter if the candidates were poor or rich. It does not matter if they had 100 to choose from or not. That is not to say that there would not be a microscopic cosmetic improvement in democracy under such conditions, but it would be moot without candidates that had Mental Freedom from society.



THE PROBLEM OF THE WASTED VOTE
All votes are wasted, because there can be no Truth-based legitimacty any societal claim to democracy.


People don't want to waste their votes for candidates that have no chance of winning.
Society deliberately orders you to choose between only 2 carefully screened and selected humans out of several millions. Right away, that removes all the legitimacy to claims of democracy.

Blackscare
21st July 2010, 04:20
That's representative democracy for ya. Not going to change it until the structure of the system is changed.

Does it really surprise you that a system in which only the rich, or those backed by the rich, can afford to launch a successful campaign is a sham? Come now.


Society deliberately orders you to choose between only 2 carefully screened and selected humans out of several millions. Right away, that removes all the legitimacy to claims of democracy.

You're talking about representative democracy here. And society does not "order" you to choose between two people, there are in fact a large number of third party candidates. The problem is the systemic bias towards the most well funded candidates.

9
21st July 2010, 06:55
Bourgeois democracy is a charade at this stage. Most people don't vote - not because they're "brainwashed" as someone claimed - but, on the contrary, because they've got enough sense to know that it isn't going to change a damn thing.


The primary reason why there is no Truth-based democracy is simply because all the citizen-slaves are brainwashed into believing in their specific society and culture. It does not matter if the candidates were poor or rich. It does not matter if they had 100 to choose from or not. That is not to say that there would not be a microscopic cosmetic improvement in democracy under such conditions, but it would be moot without candidates that had Mental Freedom from society.



All votes are wasted, because there can be no Truth-based legitimacty any societal claim to democracy.


Society deliberately orders you to choose between only 2 carefully screened and selected humans out of several millions. Right away, that removes all the legitimacy to claims of democracy.

What sort of religion are you peddling, out of curiosity?

Blackscare
21st July 2010, 06:58
9, he's an internet nut. More like timecube or truthism than an actual religion.

Kotze
21st July 2010, 10:50
So, anybody got some questions regarding the actual text? What do you think about the face-to-face aspect, that you have to talk to a lottery-selected jury if you want to be a candidate or change a law? What do you think about using a simplified STV system, if voting is to be used at all for proportional representation? When it comes to a group selecting an option among several competing proposals, do you prefer some other method to the Schulze Method?

Die Neue Zeit
4th October 2010, 07:11
It is mathematically proven that, lotteries aside, selection methods that are completely free of situations with non-winning candidates affecting who wins are impossible (Kenneth Arrow's impossibility theorem).

Although you don't mention this, how does the Cordocet method fit in with your electoral reform framework?

[I'll modify my work somewhere to mention Cordocet.]


The candidates directly face a randomly-selected jury that asks them questions. The interviews get published. The jury makes a recommendation whom to vote for that will appear on the ballot. For that recommendation, one of the complex voting methods mentioned in the beginning could be used.

Have you discussed with comrade Paul Cockshott about this?

Amphictyonis
4th October 2010, 09:38
Reform the current system from within? Not possible.

Kotze
4th October 2010, 12:26
Although you don't mention this, how does the Cordocet method fit in with your electoral reform framework?Selecting the Condorcet Winner if one exists among the stated preferences is something the single-winner version of the Schulze Method does. Logistical considerations (the combination big electorate & many options & counting by hand) might sometimes not permit using that method though.

As you probably know, electing the Condorcet Winner reduces the problem of losing candidates affecting which candidate wins. The Condorcet Winner is the candidate that beats every other candidate in a pairwise comparison. Pairwise comparison means that you look at the rankings to see how often X is ranked above Y and vice versa. You use the ranking information to simulate the outcome of a Plurality Vote with every pair of candidates. The list of these outcomes is called the pairwise matrix.

If you erase candidates outside that specific comparison after the election because it is found out that they don't actually fulfill the requirements to be in office, for example by being dead, the information of such a pairwise comparison X versus Y stays the same. A candidate that wins every pairwise comparison still wins every pairwise comparison if a losing candidate or any combination of losing candidates get disqualified after the voting. So whenever there is a Condorcet Winner and the method is Condorcet-efficient, no candidate spoiled the election of another one (well, maybe by talking crap about them).

There isn't always a Condorcet Winner, but if we believe electing a Condorcet Winner if one exists is a good thing, this might give us some related ideas what to do in cases without one. A Condorcet Loser is a candidate that loses every pairwise comparison. Don't elect that one. In cases without a Condorcet Winner we can search for the innermost sets of candidates that pairwise beat all the candidates outside these sets. (In cases with a Condorcet Winner you have a Smith Set of size 1, the same candidate.) This set is called the Smith Set. When you look at a situation with a Smith Set and a Mutual Majority Set you will see that the Smith Set is either equal to the Mutual Majority or smaller and inside the Mutual Majority. Membership in the Smith Set doesn't change if you erase a candidate or any combination of candidates outside of it. So if you like the idea of electing the Condorcet Winner, it also makes sense to demand that the winner comes from the Smith Set and is selected in a fashion that is independent of candidates outside the Smith Set. This criterion is called ISDA (independence of Smith-dominated alternatives). The single-winner version of the Schulze Method satisfies this criterion and can be computed entirely from the pairwise matrix.

I have said candidate this candidate that in the above explanation, but I'm actually more interested in using such a method to decide on other issues than beauty contests.

Die Neue Zeit
5th October 2010, 04:02
What an, ahem, "beauty contest" you've got above there, with all those terms? Trying to out-term me or something? ;)

Kotze
10th October 2010, 17:16
"Beauty contests" refers to voting for candidates as opposed to direct voting on issues. Although I'm not completely against voting for candidates and think that the Schulze Method would be good in that context, I am more interested in using such a method to vote on questions about things to do, so that people have more freedom than with a yes/no referendum (that was explicit in the seriously tl;dr version of the framework that I didn't post, still sort of implied with "competing proposals").

I believe it is quite common that a Condorcet Winner exists. Whenever the voters think that the options are on a one-dimensional spectrum and there is agreement where on the spectrum each option resides (and each voter's opinion also resides on a point on that spectrum), you have a Condorcet Winner. Example: If a board votes on a speed limit, different board members might have different opinions about which speed limit would be best, but they all know how to order the options from restrictive to permissive. If a person prefers one of the extremes, that person likes the other extreme the least. If they rank the different options based on how much they like them (equal rankings are permitted) and we use the Schulze Method (or another method that finds the Condorcet Winner) it will return the same result like with everybody writing down the preferred option and then taking the median value. There are also other situations with Condorcet Winners.

When you play through some scenarios you will see that IRV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting) has a better probability of finding a Condorcet Winner than Plurality (one reason is that a runoff makes winning impossible for the Condorcet Loser), but it doesn't guarantee it. Example: If there are 4 options and each option receives less than half of the first-place votes and option X receives all the second-place votes, option X would be the Condorcet Winner, but the first to be excluded in the IRV count. This is one reason why I prefer the Schulze Method. Another reason is that IRV doesn't allow equal-ranking (apart from the last place).