Plants think and remember

[Revy]

Plants are able to "remember" and "react" to information contained in light, according to researchers.
Plants, scientists say, transmit information about light intensity and quality from leaf to leaf in a very similar way to our own nervous systems.
These "electro-chemical signals" are carried by cells that act as "nerves" of the plants.


In their experiment, the scientists showed that light shone on to one leaf caused the whole plant to respond.
And the response, which took the form of light-induced chemical reactions in the leaves, continued in the dark.

This showed, they said, that the plant "remembered" the information encoded in light. more.... (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10598926)

[Lenina Rosenweg]

So, do you feel that plants are being exploited for their labor power? Our crops-corn, wheat, potatoes, etc. do get "paid" for their labor in the form of water, fertilizer, and other nutrients. (I'm not counting sunlight because sunlight is free, therefore it can't be classified as a commodity). The same could be true of houseplants-they're given water, potting soil, etc (of course there are cases of abuse-plant owners depriving their "employees" of adequate light and water). If fertilizers made from petrochemicals are used plants are quite literally confronted with the dead labor of past plants (I guess from the Devonian or Permian eras).

Although plants are cared for, agribusiness and even small farmers cannot adequately compensate plants for the value of their labor without endangering their ability to make a profit. Plant's surplus value is being exploited just as much as that of human workers.

Marx did say that "the worst of carpenters is better than the best of bees" but I don't remember him saying anything about the capitalist exploitation of plants. Could we try to organize plants? Is their any evidence that our crops could be reaching a level of class consciousness?

[leftace53]

I don't find this too surprising, after all humans can think and remember, and when it comes down to it, humans are just electro-chemical signals carried through cells.

Plants are people too.

[Nachie]

It's hilarious how clumsily modern Western science (groomed and directed by capitalism) is trying to catch up to and explain things that have been common knowledge to shamanic cultures for thousands and thousands of years.

[JazzRemington]

You all realize, of course, that the writer of the article puts quotes around words like "remember" and "nervous system." This suggests that the terms are being used as metaphors, and should not be taken literally. Hell, the writer even says "they likened the discovery to finding the plants' 'nervous system'" (my emphasis). I wouldn't trust media reports on scientific discoveries, especially when they don't talk about where the research is expected to be published. I bet the actual research article, as published, even uses the terms like "thinking" and "remembering" as metaphors.

Also, it's insulting to think that people thousands of years ago knew more about the world than people today.

[Blackscare]

It's hilarious how clumsily modern Western science (groomed and directed by capitalism) is trying to catch up to and explain things that have been common knowledge to shamanic cultures for thousands and thousands of years.

Oh please, some minor discovery about photosynthesis happening simultaneously over the body of a plant does not validate some silly shamanic bullshit. Just because it's more exotic than, say, christianity, does not make it any less mystical and silly.

I find it hilarious how every time science coincidentally discovers something that can vaguely confirm sort of some random weird shamanic or Buddhist or whatever belief, we have to act like we have such a debt to these mystics for having made an assumption thousands of years ago that panned out. This doesn't confirm anything, given that shamans etc claim that plants and shit like that have a lot more cognitive power than simply responding to one leaf being exposed to sunlight.


Give me a shamanic parable that says "Plants have been known to perform photosynthesis in all their leaves if only one is exposed to sunlight, showing that some form of crude neurological system exists", then I'll be fucking impressed.

[bcbm]

Also, it's insulting to think that people thousands of years ago knew more about the world than people today.

i think its silly to dismiss knowledge gained over hundreds of thousands (if not more) years as meaningless because it wasn't developed via western scientific methods.

[black magick hustla]

It's hilarious how clumsily modern Western science (groomed and directed by capitalism) is trying to catch up to and explain things that have been common knowledge to shamanic cultures for thousands and thousands of years.

i am all for anti-civ trolling escapades but i am sorry if i find suspicious crazy people eating mushrooms and talking to plants

[JazzRemington]

i think its silly to dismiss knowledge gained over hundreds of thousands (if not more) years as meaningless because it wasn't developed via western scientific methods.

Except for the fact that a large part of this knowledge is inaccurate, dangerous, and just plain wrong. It has absolutely nothing to do with ignoring something that wasn't developed by western scientific methods. Just because some plant is used to treat something doesn't mean it actually does anything.

[bcbm]

Except for the fact that a large part of this knowledge is inaccurate, dangerous, and just plain wrong. It has absolutely nothing to do with ignoring something that wasn't developed by western scientific methods. Just because some plant is used to treat something doesn't mean it actually does anything.

i think hundreds of thousands of years of trial and error probably left most pre-civilized societies with a good idea of what was useful in their various areas and how to use it.

[JazzRemington]

i think hundreds of thousands of years of trial and error probably left most pre-civilized societies with a good idea of what was useful in their various areas and how to use it.

Taking something that does not kill you outright does not mean it actually cures the illness. You're supposed to drink lots of water when you have a cold or suffering from diarrhea, but no one would say that drinking water cures either of these - despite the fact that you eventually get better after drinking lots of water. Just because you take something and you get better does not mean what you took cured you.

[Revy]

i am all for anti-civ trolling escapades but i am sorry if i find suspicious crazy people eating mushrooms and talking to plants


Mancuso, however, is no plant-whisperer. Under-tended plants are a long way from understanding sweet nothings spoken softly to them, he explains.



"Plants communicate via chemical substances," Mancuso says. "They have a specific and fairly extensive vocabulary to convey alarms, health and a host of other things. We just have sound waves broken down into various languages, I don't see how we could bridge the gap."

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2007/10/veggie_intelligence#ixzz0tp6c8EXp

[jake williams]

Except for the fact that a large part of this knowledge is inaccurate, dangerous, and just plain wrong. It has absolutely nothing to do with ignoring something that wasn't developed by western scientific methods. Just because some plant is used to treat something doesn't mean it actually does anything.
It has nothing to do with "Western thought", and actually the ascription of "science" or "rationalism" to "Western thought" is a racist ideology on the part of, for the most part, white Western academics. In fact, for centuries China was more scientifically advanced than Europe, and therefore had a far better understanding of how the world actually worked.

You're safer with a well trained doctor using modern medicine (whether they're American, Chinese or Egyptian) than you are with any "shamanistic" healer in the world, in virtually any situation. Period. The fact that ancient cultures occationally cured specific conditions through millennia of trial and error is nothing compared with a scientific understanding of the body, its physiological and biochemical systems, and different methods of treating problems.

It's true that there are certain concerns underplayed in capitalist healthcare systems, for example that a lot of doctors are shitty people and don't impart information well to their patients, or that pharmaceutical companies push drugs they know don't work but that will make them money. But that's not a problem with science - it's science and rationality that lets us understand these problems and solve them.

The identification of science with capitalism is yet another anti-materialist ideological trend that is objectively against the interests of the working class. The capitalist class doesn't own science, in fact a scientific analysis of social conditions is the only way we're ever going to win.

[JazzRemington]

It has nothing to do with "Western thought", and actually the ascription of "science" or "rationalism" to "Western thought" is a racist ideology on the part of, for the most part, white Western academics. In fact, for centuries China was more scientifically advanced than Europe, and therefore had a far better understanding of how the world actually worked.

I think the Chinese even developed a basic set of principles that was something of a forerunner to the contemporary scientific method.

[danyboy27]

i dont want to hurt those poor plant! for now on, i will stop eat vegetable!

[Nachie]

Also, it's insulting to think that people thousands of years ago knew more about the world than people today.

In insisting that your understanding of the world is superior to the exclusion of all others, you are actually only insulting yourself.


i am all for anti-civ trolling escapades but i am sorry if i find suspicious crazy people eating mushrooms and talking to plants

Why do people always want to reduce this to eating mushrooms? Ancient shamanic traditions and practice are remarkably similar throughout the entire world (suggesting that shamans are indeed dealing with an actually-existing consensus reality accessible to all human beings) and most of them don't use entheogens.


Just because some plant is used to treat something doesn't mean it actually does anything.

You... do realize where modern science gets the majority of active ingredients in its pharmaceuticals, right?

Actually the capitalist exploitation and copyrighting of traditional tribal medicines (in the Amazon particularly) with no recompense to the cultures that originally developed these remarkably sophisticated cocktails might be more up the alley of you folks who insist on looking at the world through the window that was presented to you.

[JazzRemington]

In insisting that your understanding of the world is superior to the exclusion of all others, you are actually only insulting yourself.

Straw man. Go back and read what I said, very carefully.


You... do realize where modern science gets the majority of active ingredients in its pharmaceuticals, right?

You have absolutely no idea how modern medical science works, do you? They don't just go by what other people claim when deciding if a plant can be used to treat or cure an illness. It doesn't matter how long it's been used to treat anything, what matters if it works in a very carefully controlled environment with as many external factors removed as possible. This is what no one who touts "natural cures" or "alternative medicines" understands. Hell, most of the time when a plant DOES show potential for curing or treating an illness, medical scientists use extracts from the plant and not the whole damn thing.


Actually the capitalist exploitation and copyrighting of traditional tribal medicines (in the Amazon particularly) with no recompense to the cultures that originally developed these remarkably sophisticated cocktails might be more up the alley of you folks who insist on looking at the world through the window that was presented to you.

Oh stop it. Why is it that whenever some ancient medicine has been shown to be effectively worthless, it's always some big evil conspiracy?

[Dimentio]

Exactly what is RAAN doing here?

[Bilan]

It's hilarious how clumsily modern Western science (groomed and directed by capitalism) is trying to catch up to and explain things that have been common knowledge to shamanic cultures for thousands and thousands of years.

That isn't what is happening.

[Nachie]

Exactly what is RAAN doing here?
Bustin' a hard chill, obviously.

[Nachie]

Straw man. Go back and read what I said, very carefully.

I did, and it turns out that the line I was responding to was the only part of your post that mentioned anything about ancient cultures, and yes I do believe it was silly and arrogant. It's OK though, we can disagree.


You have absolutely no idea how modern medical science works, do you?

lol, YA GOT ME


Hell, most of the time when a plant DOES show potential for curing or treating an illness, medical scientists use extracts from the plant and not the whole damn thing.

And this is actually the only point I was making. Fancy that.


Oh stop it. Why is it that whenever some ancient medicine has been shown to be effectively worthless, it's always some big evil conspiracy?

Where in this thread is anyone talking about a traditional medicine being proved worthless? Big evil conspiracy according to whom? Is it really I who am employing straw men, here?

[JazzRemington]

I did, and it turns out that the line I was responding to was the only part of your post that mentioned anything about ancient cultures, and yes I do believe it was silly and arrogant. It's OK though, we can disagree.

Yes, because it isn't silly to think that the sun is really Ra moving across the sky or that getting sick from swimming in a lake is punishment from a god or gods or that the sun revolves around the earth or diseases are the result of an unbalanced ratio of black bile, yellow bile, blood, and phlegm. It has nothing to do with being arrogant, but about acknowledging that they were wrong.


And this is actually the only point I was making. Fancy that.

Well, you sure as hell weren't clear on it.


Where in this thread is anyone talking about a traditional medicine being proved worthless? Big evil conspiracy according to whom? Is it really I who am employing straw men, here?

The responses to my first posting suggested the existence of some conspiracy or purposeful attempt to denigrate alternative medicines based solely on the fact that they aren't supported by western scientific methods.

[Nachie]

Yes, because it isn't silly to think that the sun is really Ra moving across the sky or that getting sick from swimming in a lake is punishment from a god or gods or that the sun revolves around the earth or diseases are the result of an unbalanced ratio of black bile, yellow bile, blood, and phlegm. It has nothing to do with being arrogant, but about acknowledging that they were wrong.
Not a single one of those examples has anything to do with shamanic tradition. A couple of them are actually ignorant dogmas that were violently imposed over peoples who had previously been living in shamanic cultures and knew that the Earth orbited the Sun long before anybody "discovered" it.


The responses to my first posting suggested the existence of some conspiracy or purposeful attempt to denigrate alternative medicines based solely on the fact that they aren't supported by western scientific methods.

I don't see where I said anything like that, though since you mention it I do believe that the medical establishment has a material (economic; hegemonic) interest in maintaining our dependence on it.

[JazzRemington]

Not a single one of those examples has anything to do with shamanic tradition. A couple of them are actually ignorant dogmas that were violently imposed over peoples who had previously been living in shamanic cultures and knew that the Earth orbited the Sun long before anybody "discovered" it.

Well, find. Then maybe you can explain how these cultures "knew" the Earth orbited around the Sun? Because even when the Greeks first proposed the Earth revolved around the Sun, it was just an hypothesis.


I don't see where I said anything like that, though since you mention it I do believe that the medical establishment has a material (economic; hegemonic) interest in maintaining our dependence on it.


i think its silly to dismiss knowledge gained over hundreds of thousands (if not more) years as meaningless because it wasn't developed via western scientific methods.

[jake williams]

Not a single one of those examples has anything to do with shamanic tradition. A couple of them are actually ignorant dogmas that were violently imposed over peoples who had previously been living in shamanic cultures and knew that the Earth orbited the Sun long before anybody "discovered" it.
I'm not convinced you're not a troll, but just for shits - what cultures, exactly, are you referring to? Can you give at least one example, and explain clearly what it believed about the world?

[bcbm]

Taking something that does not kill you outright does not mean it actually cures the illness. You're supposed to drink lots of water when you have a cold or suffering from diarrhea, but no one would say that drinking water cures either of these - despite the fact that you eventually get better after drinking lots of water. Just because you take something and you get better does not mean what you took cured you.

so you're saying that all traditional medicine built up over millennia was placebo effects? odd that modern scientists often rely on traditional knowledge in searching out new plant based medicines then.

[Nachie]

JazzRemington, the quote you're using was by bcbm, not I. Though I absolutely agree with what they typed.


Well, find. Then maybe you can explain how these cultures "knew" the Earth orbited around the Sun?

That would require a willingness on your part to consider explanations that could conceivably fall outside of official western science as mandated by the establishment we are presumably on this site to express opposition towards. But you may want to consider that seafaring and agricultural civilizations such as the Hawaiians, who relied on the stars for many things such as navigation and spent countless generations observing them methodically, might also have been able to figure out what was orbiting what without a white dude having to tell them.


Because even when the Greeks first proposed the Earth revolved around the Sun, it was just an hypothesis.

But neither history nor astronomy began with classical Greek civilization!


I'm not convinced you're not a troll,
And I am not convinced - as someone who has been registered on this site for almost three years longer than you and has established credentials such as having written the most significant English language anti-statist critique of the Venezuelan revolution - that I am under any obligation to prove to you that I am in fact not a troll, so I guess that makes us even.


but just for shits - what cultures, exactly, are you referring to? Can you give at least one example, and explain clearly what it believed about the world?

Frankly I'm not an expert on anything at all, and I'm not going to do the usual interweb dance of pretending to be just because I can google/wikipedia in between making posts. However, the most obvious example that comes to mind would be the Mayans, whose ancient calendar not only accounted for the Earth's orbit around the sun, the procession of the equinoxes, and the Earth's "wobble", but is still considered by modern science to be amazingly accurate.

There is also a relatively famous Sumerian tablet depicting the Sun as the center of the solar system:

http://www.forbiddenhistory.info/files/sumerian_tablet.jpg

Please try to keep any red herrings about 2012 conspiracy or Sumerian myth safely out of this thread, because I am not talking about either of those things. Everything I have said is actual fact and honestly there is no reason for me to prove to anyone that pre-Christian cultures knew damn well that the Earth orbited the Sun when the only reasons you're unable to figure that out for yourselves is your unwillingness to challenge ossified beliefs that you might not have even been aware you had.

[JazzRemington]

so you're saying that all traditional medicine built up over millennia was placebo effects? odd that modern scientists often rely on traditional knowledge in searching out new plant based medicines then.

Once again, it does not matter how long a medicine has been used. What matters is if it works in carefully controlled environments designed to establish cause and effect. A lot, if not most or all, of traditional medicines or herbal remedies either do not work in controlled conditions or have no effect beyond a placebo. Whether or not it's been used forever or is connected to some ancient culture does not matter.

[JazzRemington]

That would require a willingness on your part to consider explanations that could conceivably fall outside of official western science as mandated by the establishment we are presumably on this site to express opposition towards. But you may want to consider that seafaring and agricultural civilizations such as the Hawaiians, who relied on the stars for many things such as navigation and spent countless generations observing them methodically, might also have been able to figure out what was orbiting what without a white dude having to tell them.

First off, the earliest inhabitants of Hawaii date to about 400AD, well after the hay-day of the Greeks. The Polynesians, on the other hand, may have known that the Earth revolves around the Sun, but that still begs question as to how they actually deduced the Earth revolved around the Sun. They may have thought it was so for the same reasons as the Greeks, but as I've said, even for the Greeks it was just an hypothesis. A picture that resembles a heliocentric model of the universe on a Sumerian tablet is not enough evidence for pre-Greek knowledge of a heliocentric universe, as there is little written evidence to suggest they knew the Earth revolved around the Sun. According to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_astronomy), the Sumerians believed everything, sun and earth, revolved around a god.


But neither history nor astronomy began with classical Greek civilization!

I never said it did.

[bcbm]

Once again, it does not matter how long a medicine has been used. What matters is if it works in carefully controlled environments designed to establish cause and effect.

people lacking of western scientific does necessarily mean the lack of an ability to deduce effects through a more rudimentary form of trial and error. and i think what matters is probably the effectiveness of any plant based form of medicine, not how it is tested.


A lot, if not most or all, of traditional medicines or herbal remedies either do not work in controlled conditions or have no effect beyond a placebo.

i'd like to see a citation on this. modern science was (and still is) using traditional medicinal knowledge to create new drugs.

[Nachie]

Nevermind, you're right, nobody knew anything until we knew everything.

[JazzRemington]

people lacking of western scientific does necessarily mean the lack of an ability to deduce effects through a more rudimentary form of trial and error. and i think what matters is probably the effectiveness of any plant based form of medicine, not how it is tested.

Even if someone did not die after eating a plant or drinking some tea, that is no evidence to suggest that it works.


i'd like to see a citation on this. modern science was (and still is) using traditional medicinal knowledge to create new drugs.

I do not have to prove anything. You have to provide evidence to suggest these ancient medicines work or at least do what they are claimed to do.

[JazzRemington]

Nevermind, you're right, nobody knew anything until we knew everything.

Straw man; I never said this nor implied it. Ancient cultures knew a great deal about, say, mathematics and architecture. The Assyrians were the first people to build a library to collect and preserve texts and literature. If I recall, Hinduism teaches that the world is millions of years old - somewhat accurate, but there is no records indicating how they reached this beyond it just being an arbitrariness based on a mythology. Architects working for the Byzantine empire built an elaborate and quite effective wall surrounding Byzantium. The Sumerians and many ancient cultures had detailed surgical and anatomical knowledge. Hell, there's even some evidence to suggest stone-age peoples performed very crude surgery to relieve pressure on the brain after a head injury. My entire point is that there were things that ancient cultures knew a great deal about, and there were things that they were ignorant about, for whatever reason. While Charlemagne and the Carolingian empire is famous, in part, for breakthroughs in accounting, but they were still error prone because they used Roman numerals, which lack a zero and are difficult to do complex arithmetic with.

[bcbm]

Even if someone did not die after eating a plant or drinking some tea, that is no evidence to suggest that it works.

if a specific plant preparation or combination of methods consistently achieves its desired result, i would consider that as evidence that it is working.


I do not have to prove anything. You have to provide evidence to suggest these ancient medicines work or at least do what they are claimed to do.
In fact, over 120 pharmaceutical products currently in use are plant-derived, and some 75% of these were discovered by examining the use of these plants in traditional medicinehttp://www.netsci.org/Science/Special/feature11.html


in 1965, over 130 million prescription drugs were written which came from plants? Or if I told you that over 75% of the hormones used in medicine today are derived completely from plants? . . .

For example, everyone has heard of digitalis which is a drug used to stimulate the heart. Well, digitalis comes from an herb called foxglove. Another example is the effective anti-clotting agent called coumarol. That too comes from an herb--sweet clover.

Another one is reserpine, which is one of the most popular tranquilizers. It comes from an herb named snakeroot. They used snakeroot for thousands of years in India to calm people down.

Still another example is quinine. Quinine is very efficient in reducing fever, especially malarial fever. This drug comes from the Peruvian bark in South America.
http://www.healingfeats.com/herbsvs.htm


evidence shows that acupuncture, some herbal medicines and some manual therapies (e.g. massage) are effective for specific conditionshttp://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs134/en/

doesn't sound quite like "most if not all" don't work to me.

the journal of ethnobiology and ethnomedicine (http://www.ethnobiomed.com/) might prove interesting reading for you as well.

[Weezer]

Vegetable rights and peace!

[JazzRemington]

if a specific plant preparation or combination of methods consistently achieves its desired result, i would consider that as evidence that it is working.

But how do you know it actually is achieving the desired result? Just because it doesn't kill you doesn't mean it works.


http://www.netsci.org/Science/Special/feature11.html

Except that I never denied medical scientists locate potential substances by examining claims by peoples.


http://www.healingfeats.com/herbsvs.htm

This website is basically one giant advertisement for alternative medicines, and it's main page is loaded with ads. If you think that capitalism has negative effects on medical industry, I don't understand why you'd present as evidence a pro-herbal remedy article published on a website that sells the stuff. Plus, it seems none of the articles on the site have any references or sources cited.


http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs134/en/

From this site:
"Patient safety and use: Many people believe that because medicines are herbal (natural) or traditional they are safe (or carry no risk for harm). However, traditional medicines and practices can cause harmful, adverse reactions if the product or therapy is of poor quality, or it is taken inappropriately or in conjunction with other medicines. Increased patient awareness about safe usage is important, as well as more training, collaboration and communication among providers of traditional and other medicines."


the journal of ethnobiology and ethnomedicine (http://www.ethnobiomed.com/) might prove interesting reading for you as well.

Having a scholarly journal does not necessarily make a field of knowledge legit. Parapsychologists have scholarly journals. Further, from an article entitled "Location bias in controlled clinical trials of complementary/alternative therapies" in Volume 53, Issue 5 (http://www.jclinepi.com/article/S0895-4356(99)00220-6/abstract) of the Journal of Clinical Epidemiology:


More positive than negative trials of complementary therapies are published, except in high-impact factor MM-journals. In non-impact factor CAM-journals positive studies were of poorer methodological quality than the corresponding negative studies. This was not the case in MM-journals which published on a wider range of therapies, except in those with high impact factors. Thus location of trials in terms of journal type and impact factor should be taken into account when the literature on complementary therapies is being examined.

Where "MM-journals" means "mainstream medicine journals." Impact factor, for the record, refers to how often articles in a journal are cited in other journals. The more a journal's articles are cited in other journals, the higher the former journal's impact factor is. What the above quoted suggests is that there is a bias in CAM-literature toward positive studies whereas in MM-journals, there is more of a balance of positive and negative studies. In other words, scholarly journals supporting or not supporting traditional medicines are not the end-all-be-all of whether or not traditional medicines work.

Even the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicines (NCCAM) has mixed feelings about such medicines. Some of the studies on their website suggests that many traditional medicines have little or no effect, or have an effect via a mechanism that is different from what's traditionally thought.

[Revy]

As far as health goes, I agree with bcbm and Nachie.

Many peoples have developed much useful wisdom as far as remedies go, without modern medicine.

Obviously thousands of years somewhere along the line they realized that this or that plant has unique medicinal or nutritional properties.

The power of innovation is universal, it does not just apply to technology (the innovation of tools), but to knowledge.

[bcbm]

But how do you know it actually is achieving the desired result? Just because it doesn't kill you doesn't mean it works.

well i suspect you would typically seek a shaman or whatever out if you were, say, suffering from some malady. and if after treatment the malady went away, it seems logical to conclude there might be some correlation, especially if it happens repeatedly?


Except that I never denied medical scientists locate potential substances by examining claims by peoples.so scientists use traditional knowledge as a basis for creating new pharmaceuticals, but most if not all traditional knowledge doesn't work. seems like those two ideas don't really mesh well.


This website is basically one giant advertisement for alternative medicines, and it's main page is loaded with ads. . . I don't understand why you'd present as evidence a pro-herbal remedy article published on a website that sells the stuff. Plus, it seems none of the articles on the site have any references or sources cited.i quoted those specific examples because despite the lack of direct citations, they're all pretty easily looked into claims.


If you think that capitalism has negative effects on medical industryi don't see how you can think that capitalism is anything but a burden on most human endeavor.


From this site:
"Patient safety and use: Many people believe that because medicines are herbal (natural) or traditional they are safe (or carry no risk for harm). However, traditional medicines and practices can cause harmful, adverse reactions if the product or therapy is of poor quality, or it is taken inappropriately or in conjunction with other medicines. Increased patient awareness about safe usage is important, as well as more training, collaboration and communication among providers of traditional and other medicines."saying that something can be dangerous is not the same as saying it doesn't work. every drug on the market has warnings on it, but i doubt you would say they don't work because you can't pop as many pills as you like.


Having a scholarly journal does not necessarily make a field of knowledge legit.no, but their archives look to have a lot of good articles about traditional medicinal plant use, which i figured was relevant to the discussion.


Even the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicines (NCCAM) has mixed feelings about such medicines. Some of the studies on their website suggests that many traditional medicines have little or no effect, or have an effect via a mechanism that is different from what's traditionally thought.how is having the desired effect through a different mechanism than was "traditionally thought" a con? you don't need to understand something completely to use it.

[black magick hustla]

Why do people always want to reduce this to eating mushrooms? Ancient shamanic traditions and practice are remarkably similar throughout the entire world (suggesting that shamans are indeed dealing with an actually-existing consensus reality accessible to all human beings) and most of them don't use entheogens.



what in gods name is consensus reality. the reason why shamanic tradition can be remarkably similar is because of historical materialism, not so much because it is real. men of different cultures and races believed in gods and many of them worshipped the sun. it doesnt mean gods exist.

anyway, i was joking and i appreciate shamanic traditions but to compare them to modern science is pure posturing and nothing more. modern science has sent man to the moon, cured syphilis, and harvest the energy of atoms. we have the capacity to create an utopia of abundance and at the same time, of total self destruction. the shamans of the past could not even dream about this.

[jake williams]

well i suspect you would typically seek a shaman or whatever out if you were, say, suffering from some malady. and if after treatment the malady went away, it seems logical to conclude there might be some correlation, especially if it happens repeatedly?
As many doctors, pharmacists, etc. regularly point out, most conditions heal themselves without intervention. The "placebo effect" is basically, it'll heal itself anyway. If I have a cold, and every time I get a cold I eat a large pepperoni pizza, and then eventually the cold goes away, that doesn't suggest that the pizza cured my cold.


so scientists use traditional knowledge as a basis for creating new pharmaceuticals, but most if not all traditional knowledge doesn't work. seems like those two ideas don't really mesh well.
Sure they do. A substance traditionally used to treat a particular condition is more likely than an average plant to actually do so, but that doesn't mean that they all do, or that even most of them do.

The frustrating thing here is that no one denies that through trial and error different cultures throughout history have found different natural substances with curative properties. The fact still stands that modern medicine has accomplished way more in the last 50 years than all other cultures combined. It works quicker and it works better.

[JazzRemington]

well i suspect you would typically seek a shaman or whatever out if you were, say, suffering from some malady. and if after treatment the malady went away, it seems logical to conclude there might be some correlation, especially if it happens repeatedly?

Do you not understand the basic concept of a regression toward the mean? Or that a correlation does not imply causation, regardless of how often there is a correlation or how strong it is?


so scientists use traditional knowledge as a basis for creating new pharmaceuticals, but most if not all traditional knowledge doesn't work. seems like those two ideas don't really mesh well.

I'm beginning to think that you are deliberately ignoring what I'm writing out of spite.


i quoted those specific examples because despite the lack of direct citations, they're all pretty easily looked into claims.

So, basically if someone with a Ph.D. or an M.D. in some area says they work, they must work?


i don't see how you can think that capitalism is anything but a burden on most human endeavor.

Yes, ignore the parts I've written you don't like.


saying that something can be dangerous is not the same as saying it doesn't work. every drug on the market has warnings on it, but i doubt you would say they don't work because you can't pop as many pills as you like.

What?


no, but their archives look to have a lot of good articles about traditional medicinal plant use, which i figured was relevant to the discussion.

I'm sure parapsychology journals have a lot of good articles, also.


how is having the desired effect through a different mechanism than was "traditionally thought" a con? you don't need to understand something completely to use it.

Please re-read what I wrote. I never said it was a con. Traditional medicine either does not work at all, works differently than originally thought, or works in a completely different form than originally thought (i.e., not as a whole plant but a specific extract of a single substance).

[bcbm]

As many doctors, pharmacists, etc. regularly point out, most conditions heal themselves without intervention. The "placebo effect" is basically, it'll heal itself anyway. If I have a cold, and every time I get a cold I eat a large pepperoni pizza, and then eventually the cold goes away, that doesn't suggest that the pizza cured my cold.

if you come to associate the pizza with curing a cold and this strengthens the placebo effect, then that is still helping your body fight the ailment. apparently a lot of shamanic traditions operate in a similar way, using various methods to boost natural healing in our bodies.


Sure they do. A substance traditionally used to treat a particular condition is more likely than an average plant to actually do so, but that doesn't mean that they all do, or that even most of them do.as far as i can tell there has been fairly little research done into traditional healing methods that really proves things one way or the other and so i think completely writing them off is silly.


The frustrating thing here is that no one denies that through trial and error different cultures throughout history have found different natural substances with curative properties. The fact still stands that modern medicine has accomplished way more in the last 50 years than all other cultures combined. It works quicker and it works better.who is arguing that modern medicine is less effective or somehow a bad thing? i think it makes sense to study and test traditional methods in order to augment western medicine; i'm not suggesting traditional herb knowledge can replace laser surgery.

---


Do you not understand the basic concept of a regression toward the mean? Or that a correlation does not imply causation, regardless of how often there is a correlation or how strong it is?nope.


I'm beginning to think that you are deliberately ignoring what I'm writing out of spite.likewise.


So, basically if someone with a Ph.D. or an M.D. in some area says they work, they must work?if you would like to provide evidence that the drugs listed are not derived from traditional plant medicine and/or have no effect, by all means, throw up some data.


Yes, ignore the parts I've written you don't like.um i responded to the whole rest of that paragraph. i'm not sure what your point in bringing capitalism up was.


What?you quoted a warning that says traditional plant methods may be dangerous. so is aspirin. get it?


I'm sure parapsychology journals have a lot of good articles, also.what a fool i was to think a scholarly journal with articles about the topic we are discussing might provide something of value to the conversation. in case you missed it, i didn't say "this journal exists, therefore all traditional medicine works," i said that there appeared to be articles dealing with the topic that could provide some insight.


Please re-read what I wrote. I never said it was a con. Traditional medicine either does not work at all, works differently than originally thought, or works in a completely different form than originally thought (i.e., not as a whole plant but a specific extract of a single substance).you're just restating the same thing and ignoring the question. if it works differently than the people using it thought but it still works... it still works.

[JazzRemington]

if you come to associate the pizza with curing a cold and this strengthens the placebo effect, then that is still helping your body fight the ailment. apparently a lot of shamanic traditions operate in a similar way, using various methods to boost natural healing in our bodies.

Again, you don't understand regression toward the mean.


as far as i can tell there has been fairly little research done into traditional healing methods that really proves things one way or the other and so i think completely writing them off is silly.

Even if you take all of the medical literature about traditional medicine, it still is ambiguous whether it does what it's supposed to do.

---


nope.

Then why are you repeatedly suggesting that traditional medicine works because it's based on a correlation?


likewise.

Oh I understand exactly what you're claiming. Which is why I know that nothing you've said is anywhere near accurate.


if you would like to provide evidence that the drugs listed are not derived from traditional plant medicine and/or have no effect, by all means, throw up some data.

I have been repeatedly saying that medical scientists do research traditional medicines but do not assume they work as described and do subject the medicine to rigorous experiments to see if it actually does what it's claimed to do. Just claiming it cures a disease because someone just happened to get better after taking the thing is absolutely no evidence that it works.


um i responded to the whole rest of that paragraph. i'm not sure what your point in bringing capitalism up was.

Why should I trust a website that's telling me about how good natural medicines are if the site has advertisements and sells the stuff?


you quoted a warning that says traditional plant methods may be dangerous. so is aspirin. get it?

Yes, and they know exactly how dangerous aspirin is and can make recommendations based on objective data obtained through years of very carefully controlled experiments that are repeatable to determine if the results are accurate. Taking a plant because it's always been taken to cure a disease is infinitely more dangerous than taking 1 aspirin, any day.


what a fool i was to think a scholarly journal with articles about the topic we are discussing might provide something of value to the conversation. in case you missed it, i didn't say "this journal exists, therefore all traditional medicine works," i said that there appeared to be articles dealing with the topic that could provide some insight.

Like I said, parapsychologists have some interesting journal articles as well. That doesn't mean anything about parapsychology is true or accurate.


you're just restating the same thing and ignoring the question. if it works differently than the people using it thought but it still works... it still works.

You're right, I am posting the same stuff over and over again. It's only because you refuse to read or understand it.

[bcbm]

Oh I understand exactly what you're claiming. Which is why I know that nothing you've said is anywhere near accurate.

no, you clearly don't. what i am saying is:


i think it makes sense to study and test traditional methods in order to augment western medicine; i'm not suggesting traditional herb knowledge can replace laser surgery.

i'm not suggesting all traditional medicine works or works because it has been used for thousands of years, as you keep suggesting, i am saying that given its long history it seems likely that its practitioners have figured out some methods of healing that actually work and it would be beneficial for our own medical knowledge to study those systems more in depth than has been done in the past and see what we can learn.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

i'm not suggesting all traditional medicine works or works because it has been used for thousands of years, as you keep suggesting, i am saying that given its long history it seems likely that its practitioners have figured out some methods of healing that actually work and it would be beneficial for our own medical knowledge to study those systems more in depth than has been done in the past and see what we can learn.

The thing is, by applying scientific methods we can find out what effect if any traditional medicine has. Once the mechanism has been isolated, we can then regulate and improve upon it.

[bcbm]

yes when i said we should study and learn from them to augment modern medicine, what did you think i was talking about? :glare:

though some traditional systems seem to operate as a whole more than one individual effect- a combination of healing plants and methods to boost our body's natural healing systems. i don't think we can consider isolating one "mechanism" just yet but should try to come to a fuller understanding of how their methods work and then determine how that knowledge can best be applied.

[ckaihatsu]

yes when i said we should study and learn from them to augment modern medicine, what did you think i was talking about? :glare:

though some traditional systems seem to operate as a whole more than one individual effect- a combination of healing plants and methods to boost our body's natural healing systems. i don't think we can consider isolating one "mechanism" just yet but should try to come to a fuller understanding of how their methods work and then determine how that knowledge can best be applied.


Yeah, I'm noticing a reductionism-versus-holism (whole-ism) dialectic here -- I think it's important to view the individual in a larger biological, and even *societal*, context for discussions about overall health and disease. We shouldn't forget that we're constantly under attack by bacteria and other organisms and that our immune system has an intelligence of its own in order to repel these foreign invaders.

If, because of social conditions, we're *also* being marginalized (or worse) as human beings by *other* human beings, then that *doesn't* assist our internal functions -- our own immune system would be *weakened* by adverse *social* conditions.

While I appreciate Western medicine's reductionistic (chemical) approach, we shouldn't forget the larger context that someone is in -- perhaps the *traditional* approaches are more *social*, restoring some social dynamics of "good vibes" by having everyone around the person make a fuss and so on in a formal ceremony.

And, chemically, perhaps the more traditional approaches are *more complex* than the reductionistic approach, yielding treatments that aid *several* of the body's "subsystems" at once....

Finally, in general we could invoke the 'pleasure principle', since, at an existential level, we *have* to find some intrinsic (personal) value in the activities that we undertake, or else we're just under someone else's sway for no good personal (organism-istic) reasons.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Plants can remember? I wish I could do that!:(

[Taikand]

We can't exploit humans, we can't exploit animals, we can't exploit plants.
Then what the hell should we eat?Rocks?Maybe rocks can think.

[ckaihatsu]

To be moralistically perfect you're only allowed to absorb in sunlight for your nourishment.


= D

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

To be moralistically perfect you're only allowed to absorb in sunlight for your nourishment.


= D

If you said this before I went on Spironolactone (and became drastically more sensitive to the sun) I would have said "sorry to the people who burn" but I am now way more prone to sun poisoning. I still don't really get sun burn per se though because I still feel no burn. It's just more long term damage.

[Blackscare]

If you said this before I went on Spironolactone

I accidentally snorted that once.

[ckaihatsu]

If you said this before I went on Spironolactone (and became drastically more sensitive to the sun) I would have said "sorry to the people who burn" but I am now way more prone to sun poisoning. I still don't really get sun burn per se though because I still feel no burn. It's just more long term damage.


Yeah, I forgot to mention that you're also not allowed to pollute the atmosphere with your CO2 emissions *and* you need to sympathize *even more* with Anglos...(!)


x D

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I accidentally snorted that once.

You snorted testosterone blocker?

[this is an invasion]

You snorted testosterone blocker?

Was probably crazy.