I wonder...

[StoneFrog]

I wonder if maybe Marx and Engels didn't publish their works what would of happened? I mean, capitalist system will make the conditions for communism so with the publishings of such works give capitalist a head up how to defend against such things?
I am not just talking about marx and engels but the whole socialist movement. Because we live in a society which is built on illusions and misdirection, what if revolutionary writings are doing more harm than good? By publishing things are we not providing a face for them to deem evil?

IDK its just something i've been thinking last few days.

[A.R.Amistad]

I wonder if maybe Marx and Engels didn't publish their works what would of happened? I mean, capitalist system will make the conditions for communism so with the publishings of such works give capitalist a head up how to defend against such things?
I am not just talking about marx and engels but the whole socialist movement. Because we live in a society which is built on illusions and misdirection, what if revolutionary writings are doing more harm than good? By publishing things are we not providing a face for them to deem evil?

IDK its just something i've been thinking last few days.

communism isn't going to fall out of the sky. it must be built via revolution or end in the ruination of both contending classes

[fa2991]

It could be argued that Marx's publications helped develop worldwide class consciousness, a precondition for communism's development. So, in a way, their publication aided an essential part of the development towards communism - class consciousness.

If Marx & co. didn't publish their theories, some later thinkers would have to eventually. It seems to me that a clear and reasoned articulation of communist theory has to be made somewhere down the line before people can become class conscious. It doesn't happen spontaneously, after all.

So, yes, Marx may have given capitalists something to attack, but he also gave the workers something to rally around, which is crucial to the development of communism.

[StoneFrog]

NVM its stupid, mod pls delete ty =]

[ComradeOm]

A great deal of Marx's works were not published until the 1930s anyway *shrugs*

[Tavarisch_Mike]

Class consciousness is something moste workers have but cant express, even in the earliset times of the industrial revolution there where strikes and revolts aganist the system, i think its an natural event when more and more people where gathered in bigger towns ore cities they had the chance to talk with eachother (brainstorming as my former teachers called it) put words to theire feelings, make it to an analyse and eventualy organize. This would have happend even without Marx and Engels, im quite sure that there would be somone else to write about the nature of capitalism.

[Tatarin]

I think their published works functions more as a rallying point and as the theory in the movement. Maybe worker's movements wouldn't have had a classless society as the ultimate goal, but I believe that the conditions for west- and northern Europes social welfare only came closer and closer. And Russia was bound to happen as most of it was in complete shambles after centuries of tzarism.

Or, in any case, someone would have thought it out. The idea is already there; religious communes, for example, functioned in a similar albeit limited way. Thus the only "problem" is to figure out how the rest of the world can live like that, and as it happens, worker's revolution is the way to that global commune.

[RotStern]

Well, if Marx and Engels hadn't published their work, somebody else would have, many Germans were working on the same ideas at the time.

[ComradeOm]

Well, if Marx and Engels hadn't published their work, somebody else would have, many Germans were working on the same ideas at the time.Possibly, but let's not fall into the trap of assuming that another Marx would have spontaneously arrived to publish the Manifesto. There were plenty of critiques of capitalism floating around at the time, and perhaps they would have been adopted by the 1870s socialist parties, but it would not be Marxism. Certainly not as we know it

[meow]

but would it matter? if marxism is correct you dont need to know about marx for working class to bring about revolution. the working class will bring about revolution anyway.

[StoneFrog]

but would it matter? if marxism is correct you dont need to know about marx for working class to bring about revolution. the working class will bring about revolution anyway.

This is what i was trying to say.

What i was thinking is if Marx was right that capitalism will create the conditions, and class consciousness will come about on its own; are these essays and manifestos useless? All that has really been doing is creating manifestos and ideologies to fight about. And by calling ourselves Leninist, Trot, Anarchist or what ever slot you wish to reside in, we are just creating a tangible face for the capitalists to fight against and breaking solidarity.

[ComradeOm]

but would it matter? if marxism is correct you dont need to know about marx for working class to bring about revolution. the working class will bring about revolution anyway.Its not a causal relationship between Marxism, or any other theoretical base, and working class revolution. Rather its dialectic with both factors, amongst others, reinforcing each other. So no, the absence of Marxism would not preclude class struggle but countless working class movements over the decades/centuries have used Marx's language and theoretical framework to express and formulate their ideas/plans. As such Marxism, and others, have been powerful tools in generating and sustaining class conciousness