A huge population of India lives in worst condition than poorest parts of Africa

[pranabjyoti]

BELIEVE IT OR NOT. But the country, that can send a probe to moon and capitalists of which have the capacity to buy companies overseas isn't capable of affording a square meal to a large section of its citizens. As per the latest survey of UN, a large part of the population of India live in worse condition than the civil war infested Rwanda, Burundi. Even civil war bloody Srilanka has done better than India in this respect.
I just read this matter in newspaper and I can not send you any source at present. But, believe me, it's true.

[AK]

The first part sounds frighteningly similar to the US.

[RedStarOverChina]

The so-called "economic miracles" of India and China are no miracles at all. It's merely a concentration of the wealth of a billion people, and invest it in small pockets of the country. In both China and India, the peasantry pay for it in their untold misery, even more so than the workers.

The Indian people have it particularly hard because what they're experiencing is the result of over 60 years of systematic neglect, the consequence of which cannot be quickly resolved. :(

[Adi Shankara]

India, I believe, is a trillion dollar economy. that trillion is probably in the hands of 1-5% of the nation's people. India still has terrible poverty rates, and their government is beginning to subscribe to trickle down theory in order to alleviate the poor. yes I'm very scared for the future.

as far as it being poorer than certain parts of Africa...I don't think it can get more poor than malnutrition or starvation, and those two afflictions are pretty universal.

[Adi Shankara]

According to the FAO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FAO), starvation currently affects more than one billion people, or 1 in 6 people on the planet.

that means there are 1 billion people who are "worse poverty in the world" status.

[El Rojo]

it hacks me off how cappies love to cite the "asian tiger nations" as evidence of sucessful capitalist development. forgetting something?

[danyboy27]

capitalist depend on exploitation, and is cyclic has well. at first it was american who where extremely exploited, then it moved to china, now the chinese are pissed, the exploitation cycle will move toward india, but eventually even them will be pissed.

this cycle cannot last forever.

[maskerade]

it hacks me off how cappies love to cite the "asian tiger nations" as evidence of sucessful capitalist development. forgetting something?

Yea, cappies often forget that most of these success stories were the result of massive government intervention in the most profitable industries, something neoliberals most likely purposely ignore. It's no surprise that the 'terrorist' maoists are gaining so much support

[pranabjyoti]

Comrades,
Than you for your posting. But, sorry, I can not agree with some opinion that CHINA AND INDIA ARE EQUAL. China has a full fledged capitalist economy while and socio-economic condition of India is semi-feudal. A lot of people forgot that CHINA HAD AT LEAST PASSED THROUGH A REVOLUTION AND THAT AT LEAST WIPED OUT NEARLY ALL TRACES OF FEUDALISM FROM IT. You may deny the contribution of Mao and the Chinese revolutionaries, but it's a fact.
At present, if you look closely on the diplomatic approaches of China and India, you can see quite a lot of difference. China acts like much more like a big imperialist power and on occasion, it can take care of US in case of a clash. But, the act of India is more like a pet dog of US at present.
It's a matter of hot debate worldwide among leftists regarding the semi-feudal matter. But, being an Indian, me and other people like me can feel everyday that HOW TRUE IT IS EVEN TODAY.

[Dimentio]

India will probably either become a dictatorship, collapse or undergo a social revolution, or all three of those, before 2050. Its not only capitalism which will need to go, but more importantly the caste system.

[pranabjyoti]

India will probably either become a dictatorship, collapse or undergo a social revolution, or all three of those, before 2050. Its not only capitalism which will need to go, but more importantly the caste system.
Better say the "remains of feudalism". That's is very important for the world too. In my opinion, people of countries like India and one of the biggest barrier before the advancement of workers struggle and the progress of humanity.

[The Vegan Marxist]

India will probably either become a dictatorship, collapse or undergo a social revolution, or all three of those, before 2050. Its not only capitalism which will need to go, but more importantly the caste system.

A revolution is already going on in India. You know, the Naxalites! And they're growing in numbers.

[RedStarOverChina]

Comrades,
Than you for your posting. But, sorry, I can not agree with some opinion that CHINA AND INDIA ARE EQUAL. China has a full fledged capitalist economy while and socio-economic condition of India is semi-feudal. A lot of people forgot that CHINA HAD AT LEAST PASSED THROUGH A REVOLUTION AND THAT AT LEAST WIPED OUT NEARLY ALL TRACES OF FEUDALISM FROM IT. You may deny the contribution of Mao and the Chinese revolutionaries, but it's a fact.
At present, if you look closely on the diplomatic approaches of China and India, you can see quite a lot of difference. China acts like much more like a big imperialist power and on occasion, it can take care of US in case of a clash. But, the act of India is more like a pet dog of US at present.
It's a matter of hot debate worldwide among leftists regarding the semi-feudal matter. But, being an Indian, me and other people like me can feel everyday that HOW TRUE IT IS EVEN TODAY.Could you elaborate on how remanents of Feudalism influences the social-economic condition of India?

I saw similarities between the Chinese and Indian peasantry as they are both victims of the neo-liberal onslaught: land-expropriations, government neglect, rigged argriculture market prices, etc. I'm also aware that the Indian peasants are often heavily indebted (a key factor in suicides). Is usuery being practiced?

In what other ways are the Indians different?

[pranabjyoti]

Could you elaborate on how remanents of Feudalism influences the social-economic condition of India?

I saw similarities between the Chinese and Indian peasantry as they are both victims of the neo-liberal onslaught: land-expropriations, government neglect, rigged agriculture market prices, etc. I'm also aware that the Indian peasants are often heavily indebted (a key factor in suicides). Is usually being practiced?

In what other ways are the Indians different?
Pretty simple, though I have very little idea about the level of development of agriculture in China, but I can at least say that it is much more developed than India. Chinese peasants use for more modern machinery and other things than their Indian counterparts. I hope you can remember that during Mao, collectivized agriculture was on growth, though that was later purposefully destroyed by Deng and his successors. But still, so far I haven't heard the news of suicide of peasants in China. If you look at the present productivity chart of Indian and Chinese peasants, you can see that Chinese farming has more productivity than Indians, though the condition of agriculture is more suitable in India. I also want to inform you that India has more farmland than China, but still it lags behind in production and productivity.
The biggest reason of poverty of Indian farmers is their primitive and less developed mode of agriculture. Indian lands at present is mostly divided in small, individual plots and the tools used in a lions share of cases is literally "prehistoric". Adivase (aboriginal people) infested areas of India totally lacks modern machinery and other means of agriculture.
In such a scenario, what makes the condition worse is "semi-feudal" mentality of Indian people. What is unbearable to most Europeans and perhaps to large share of people in the world, is almost natural to Indians. This kind of semi-feudal mentality leads to other behavioral defects. As for example, anti-organized worker mentality is widespread among Indian peasants. This mentality can be described by this way.
Most of the world population mentality: If they live in better conditions than me, then why don't I?
Indian mentality: If my condition is worse, why do they have a better life?
I don't know whether this kind of mentality is available among Chinese peasants, but I can guess NOT or very little.

[Andropov]

The Caste System is without doubt one of the most repressive and unjust social constructs in the world.

[Hiratsuka]

Is this a changing development, or a continuance of previous poverty? My knowledge of India is contained in only history classes and personal encounters with Indian-Americans, but I've been told these extremely poor areas are essentially operating around tribal systems used for hundreds of years.

[pranabjyoti]

The Caste System is without doubt one of the most repressive and unjust social constructs in the world.
A very good example of Asiatic feudalism.

[Black Star]

The Caste system: The 'apartheid' no one around the world cares about.

[empiredestoryer]

india is ruled by gangsters

[scarletghoul]

Is this a changing development, or a continuance of previous poverty? My knowledge of India is contained in only history classes and personal encounters with Indian-Americans, but I've been told these extremely poor areas are essentially operating around tribal systems used for hundreds of years.
They are not exactly the same systems that have been there for hundreds of years, but they retain many aspects of the old systems, mostly negative, mixed in with modern capitalist oppression. This is what's meant by 'semifeudal'- these areas of India still have a strong backwards caste system, big landlords, and so on, aswell as being raped and destroyed by large corporations. Often, the feudal element and the capitalist element compliment and strengthen each other as they form a double-binding keeping the people down.

[scarletghoul]

But the country, that can send a probe to moon and capitalists of which have the capacity to buy companies overseas isn't capable of affording a square meal to a large section of its citizens.

The first part sounds frighteningly similar to the US.
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[rednordman]

Is india the next USSR or Red China? Interesting as the forcast even under western capitalism is very bad, under their own admission. Yes there is more wealthy, but to more rich there are millions more poor emerging.

[DunyaGongrenKomRevolyutsi]

This is a good thread. India shows us how Capitalism is not at all more equal and that 'pushing the bourgeoisie through the democratic process' ie trade unions and through 'left-wing parliamentarians' to make a more 'democratic Capitalism' achieves nothing, nothing worth mentioning.

Just about every social-democratic and sadly, 'communist' party in India, acts to sabotage the struggle for emancipation.

[chegitz guevara]

Combined and uneven development exits within countries as well as between countries.

[t.shonku]

In one interview the famous Indian writer called Arundhati Ray sayed that in India the peoples have evolved into two different “species” .One species is the urban inhabitant corporates and the other species are the poor and not well to do people.Now the dominent species that is the corporates sees themselves as the superior race and considers others as sub-human beings.

[chegitz guevara]

Sounds like America.

[t.shonku]

Sounds like America.

Well today's Indian government is actually following USA's footstep but the oppression in India is much more than in US.

[pranabjyoti]

Sounds like America.
Not actually, men like you who are living in the US and other first world countries never understand what feudalism and its poisonous effect was and is?

[scarletghoul]

Yeah I doubt there would ever be an adivasi or dalit president of India..

This is a good thread. India shows us how Capitalism is not at all more equal and that 'pushing the bourgeoisie through the democratic process' ie trade unions and through 'left-wing parliamentarians' to make a more 'democratic Capitalism' achieves nothing, nothing worth mentioning.

Just about every social-democratic and sadly, 'communist' party in India, acts to sabotage the struggle for emancipation.

Yeah :( its also tragic how many members in the CPI and CPIMarxist are actually good communists who want to change the country for the better. But the essence of the Party means that the leadership will almost always sell out. Still there is some good potential in some of the members. Perhaps when the maoists more active in urban areas they will be able to recruit some CPIM cadres. They already have big student support.

[DunyaGongrenKomRevolyutsi]

Not actually, men like you who are living in the US and other first world countries never understand what feudalism and its poisonous effect was and is?

Maybe not, but then you might not know about the USA if you have never lived there. Should I be annoyed with you for not knowing about a country foreign to your own?

[pranabjyoti]

Maybe not, but then you might not know about the USA if you have never lived there. Should I be annoyed with you for not knowing about a country foreign to your own?
On net and on the media, one is just bombarded with information about USA and so a non-US citizen know much more about US than a non-Indian know about India. As for example, people living in villages and backward places know more about advanced cities but city dwelling people know much less or nothing in compared to village life.

[DunyaGongrenKomRevolyutsi]

On net and on the media, one is just bombarded with information about USA and so a non-US citizen know much more about US than a non-Indian know about India.

pranabjyoti, would you say the same is true for Britain?

The media bombards people with targeted information, this is especially true for foreign countries and their perception of America.

Do you think Indian media really reports the truth of what America is like?

I know people who have been shown pristine pavements, perfect villages and perfect parts of London from foreign countries, trying to tell them this is the "mother country" where everyone should come, the reality is totally different and inescapable once you are here however.

Can you really, honestly say you know about America just from the media?


As for example, people living in villages and backward places know more about advanced cities but city dwelling people know much less or nothing in compared to village life.

What your saying is technically true, but it doesnt mean villagers are told the truths of city life does it? And vice versa.

[The Red Next Door]

I love it, How people say that these countries are successful and people are having a good quality of life. The thing is there is not a good quality of life under capitalism, because in order to be successful under capitalism; you have to fuck people over. I like it when people make it out that, every single successful business person, earn their living honestly, Capitalism= cheat, fuck over, and kill. your way to the top baby. It is not an honest system and it is a system, the human race do not need. How these countries became successful; is by fucking their people over leaving in them in complete. A poor person can be rich under capitalism, but if you are a poor person, who have a good sense of humanity. you would fuck with it because you know what kind of shit, you have to do in capitalism, you can't earn it honesty in capitalism, it a system made for greed and profit. not for humanity or honesty.

[chegitz guevara]

Not actually, men like you who are living in the US and other first world countries never understand what feudalism and its poisonous effect was and is?

I think you should visit the Mississippi Delta, certain American Indian reservations, and certain American ghettos, and then shut the fuck up.

[DunyaGongrenKomRevolyutsi]

I think you should visit the Mississippi Delta, certain American Indian reservations, and certain American ghettos, and then shut the fuck up.

Is there any need to be so abusive? You could have made your point without being so rude.

[chegitz guevara]

I have difficulty treating arrogant ignorance with anything resembling respect.

[scarletghoul]

You just lost out on a shiny 'thanks', Mr.

[pranabjyoti]

I think you should visit the Mississippi Delta, certain American Indian reservations, and certain American ghettos, and then shut the fuck up.
Well, there are only certain American Ghettos to shut the fuck up, while most of the India itself is a Ghetto. At least, as per latest HDI survey. Feudalism may be related to poverty but KINDLY TRY TO UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE NOT SAME BEFORE SAYING SOMEONE "SHUT UP".

[Sendo]

Well, there are only certain American Ghettos to shut the fuck up, while most of the India itself is a Ghetto. At least, as per latest HDI survey. Feudalism may be related to poverty but KINDLY TRY TO UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE NOT SAME BEFORE SAYING SOMEONE "SHUT UP".

Uhh yeah, the USA has internal colonization but certainly not feudalism--not ever really; it was born in the transition to capitalism. We had big landlords, but never serfdom. The South was a throwback to chattel slavery labor force in a commodity (capitalist) economy, but feudal?

Pranabyoti has a point, chegitz, poverty is not feudalism, and genocide is not feudalism.

[t.shonku]

I agree with Comrade Pranab India is infact a feudalist country.But I want to add something more,present day India is a country where the feudalism , corporatism and hindu fundamentalism has combined to form a dangerously poisonous cocktail.
I remember once I met a corporate honcho in Kolkata I chated with him regarding development of science and technology in India.Suprisingly he said that India doesn’t need any Einstein, he said “we need guys who can sell our products and win business deal for us” I think this shows the extent of corporate-feudalism.Don’t think that this guy is the only one, most Indians are like these they don’t like free thinking.
The only free thinkers that are left have joined the Naxals.Bcoz they are the cure for this corporate-feudal disease.

[Adi Shankara]

I have difficulty treating arrogant ignorance with anything resembling respect.

But you treat everyone that way who disagrees with you...refer to that one thread I created where I put that there might be evidence 7 million people starved in the great depression, and you immediately called everyone who agreed with you some unpleasant epithet.

[bailey_187]

they are less depressed than Americans though right?

[chegitz guevara]

Uhh yeah, the USA has internal colonization but certainly not feudalism--not ever really; it was born in the transition to capitalism. We had big landlords, but never serfdom. The South was a throwback to chattel slavery labor force in a commodity (capitalist) economy, but feudal?

Pranabyoti has a point, chegitz, poverty is not feudalism, and genocide is not feudalism.

Keep in mind that what pranabjyoti calls feudalism, most of the rest of us call capitalism. That comrade's political tendency has defined all colonial countries as feudal and state that, magically, no colonial or feudal country can become capitalist after the Russian Revolution. Thus, South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, etc., are all feudal.

We have had relations resembling feudalism in the United States. Debt peonage and share cropping are about as feudal as you can get in the capitalist system. Unless pranabjyoti is claiming that Indian farmers are serfs, and legally tied to the land and have labor obligations to their lords, what we've had and what they have aren't substantially different.

[chegitz guevara]

But you treat everyone that way who disagrees with you...refer to that one thread I created where I put that there might be evidence 7 million people starved in the great depression, and you immediately called everyone who agreed with you some unpleasant epithet.

Not everyone, just you and Khad, because both of you were being intellectually dishonest.