Weather Report in Navajo

[Nolan]

It's good to see this language is still alive after all these years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFayFUiyv20&feature=related

Got that? :p

BTW, I've been to Four Corners.

[the last donut of the night]

That was amazing. It's a really tonal language, I didn't know that before.

[redsky]

Very nice. Keeping up this kind of strength may have a sort of globo-immunity effect against corporate internationalism.

There's also, I think, a station out of Flagstaff with programming in Dineh, including drumming and chants.

[Franz Fanonipants]

The American Southwest, aka. occupied America, is ill.

[Nolan]

It's a shame the government doesn't do more to raise awareness and knowledge of native languages.

There should be required courses in native languages in their respective areas.

But they'd probably be very intimidating to any speaker of a modern European language.

[explosive toaster]

It's a shame the government doesn't do more to raise awareness and knowledge of native languages.

There should be required courses in native languages in their respective areas.

They offer Lakota classes at the high school I went to and the college I attend. They're not required classes, but it's a good step in the right direction.

[Franz Fanonipants]

There's also the issue of tribal cultural domain, a lot of tribes rightfully don't want non-tribal members walking around gabbing in, say, Din'eh.

That's fair.

[Pavlov's House Party]

There's also the issue of tribal cultural domain, a lot of tribes rightfully don't want non-tribal members walking around gabbing in, say, Din'eh.

That's fair.

lol wut

so i guess people from mexico shouldn't be allowed to learn english too then

[Raúl Duke]

Interesting language

[samofshs]

lenni lenape is an interesting language, and not just anybody can learn it, either.

[Franz Fanonipants]

so i guess people from mexico shouldn't be allowed to learn english too then

I wasn't aware that Mexicans had genocided English-speakers. And then, in the 1960s en masse tried to steal Protestantism and its secret mystical wisdom.

[Raúl Duke]

I wasn't aware that Mexicans had genocided English-speakers. And then, in the 1960s en masse tried to steal Protestantism and its secret mystical wisdom.

No that didn't happen, I guess he was trying in some way to say that your previously stated position seems...dumb.
I don't see what the issue is of allowing non-native Navajo people to learn Dineh/'Navajo' language...

What if you're an anthropologist or something which required some study of this language?

[Pavlov's House Party]

What if you're an anthropologist or something which required some study of this language?

or if you know, just wanted to learn the language?

[Franz Fanonipants]

or if you know, just wanted to learn the language?

Not yr cultural prerogative. I imagine some tribes are pretty open to others learning their language, but the Indians I'm most familiar with wouldn't want people who aren't from their communities understanding their language.

I'd be puzzled and a little suspicious of anyone who had a real, burning desire to learn Indian languages and wasn't an Indian/linguist.

[Pavlov's House Party]

i'm of the opinion that anybody and everybody should have the opportunity to learn any language they damn well please. how else do you expect a language to survive if no one learns it? in quebec the mohawk have workshops anyone can attend, and hopefully teaching it to anyone who is willing will save it from dying out.

seriously, i have to live with language police, but stopping people who want to learn a new language? that's just idiotic.

[Robocommie]

i'm of the opinion that anybody and everybody should have the opportunity to learn any language they damn well please. how else do you expect a language to survive if no one learns it? in quebec the mohawk have workshops anyone can attend, and hopefully teaching it to anyone who is willing will save it from dying out.

seriously, i have to live with language police, but stopping people who want to learn a new language? that's just idiotic.

The thing is, if the tribe chooses to teach you, then fine, if they don't, then it's not your place to demand to know.

The point Fanonipants is trying to make is that a lot of tribes don't like people knowing their shit, including their language and their religion. A lot of tribes have responded to government cultural repression and attempted white-washing by becoming insular. You should respect their choice.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Contrary to what white privilege teaches, not everything in this world is there for you to take just when you want it.

I mean, I can understand your noble if patronizing sentiment, but if a cultural group wants to keep their cultural traditions to themselves that's their prerogative, as I mentioned.

[Nolan]

I don't get this idea that you can't or shouldn't learn a native language just because some tribe leaders might not like it. It's not like they own it. Languages are not something that should come with property strings attached. If someone is willing to teach the language, then it should be publicized.


Contrary to what white privilege teaches, not everything in this world is there for you to take just when you want it. I don't think anyone could think of a dumber red herring. Congrats.


I'd be puzzled and a little suspicious of anyone who had a real, burning desire to learn Indian languages and wasn't an Indian/linguist. Lol, stick to your own kind, right?

Explain to me why you are not condoning xenophobia and nationalism? Socialists are not to coddle this tendency among some of the more nationalist native americans to view modern non-natives as outsiders and invaders. It is not an appropriate response to imperialist oppression.

[Raúl Duke]

Explain to me why you are not condoning xenophobia and nationalism? Socialists are not to coddle this tendency among some of the more nationalist native americans to view modern non-natives as outsiders and invaders. It is not an appropriate response to imperialist oppression.

I agree with Captain Cuba.

I'm seeing double standards, if a larger culture (like Sweden or whatnot, for an example) told people to shove it and not learn their language because they're not "one of them" you'all would be howling in rage yet find this ok for other cultures to do so. I don't see how, as Cuba puts it, coddling this tendency does any good for combating racism/cultural discrimination.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Revleft is fulla ridiculous children vol. 76

resistance to hegemony isn't "nationalist."

e. lol "some tribe leader might not like it."

[Robocommie]

Socialists are not to coddle this tendency among some of the more nationalist native americans to view modern non-natives as outsiders and invaders. It is not an appropriate response to imperialist oppression.

And since when did it become the socialist way for whites to dictate to an oppressed and historically hegemonized people how they are going to respond to imperialist aggression? Since when did it become the socialist way to talk about "coddling" Native Americans?

You're missing the big picture, here. There was a time when Native Americans had their religion and their language banned by US law, when the US tried everything to sometimes literally beat the Indian out of them. As it stands right now, a lot of tribes are having their cultures watered down and peddled off by hippie con men, crystal-waving hucksters and fake "shamans." A lot of Native Americans have nothing left except their traditional cultures and this response is a way to prevent their tribal traditions from becoming a tourist trap, to white people and their patronizing fascination with the noble savage.

Your assertion that socialists shouldn't "coddle" this is incredibly paternalistic. Even just the use of the word "coddle" is demeaning and condescending.

[Franz Fanonipants]

bro i don't give a shit what indians think let me smokeum peace pipeum. if they don't let me wear an indian baby on my arm as an accessory they're obv. reactionary indians.

j/k with the imperialism, but seriously guys it's not your god-given right to be a part of any culture you choose. now, again, you figure out learning Din'eh on your own, rad, or you're taught, even radder. but sorry i think that the colonizer (and really, we're all colonizers in this sense) doesn't have a right to accessorize themselves with the culture of the oppressed.

[Nolan]

And since when did it become the socialist way for whites to dictate to an oppressed and historically hegemonized people how they are going to respond to imperialist aggression? Since when did it become the socialist way to talk about "coddling" Native Americans?

Since when did we support reactionary sentiments solely because they came from an oppressed group? Would you support the NOI or the "New Black Panther Party's" stance on white people? Since when did my ethnic background which you don't even know about factor into this?


Since when did it become the socialist way to talk about "coddling" Native Americans?Please. So if I hate the NBPP I hate black people? Wonderful logic. I referred to a certain reactionary belief among some native americans, not like you misrepresented my position.


You're missing the big picture, here. There was a time when Native Americans had their religion and their language banned by US law, when the US tried everything to sometimes literally beat the Indian out of them. As it stands right now, a lot of tribes are having their cultures watered down and peddled off by hippie con men, crystal-waving hucksters and fake "shamans." A lot of Native Americans have nothing left except their traditional cultures and this response is a way to prevent their tribal traditions from becoming a tourist trap, to white people and their patronizing fascination with the noble savage.And you're missing the point. We can't condone such xenophobia and "them vs. us" racism, no matter how understandable it is from a historical perspective. Your average non-native white person who wants to learn your language is not the enemy. The bourgeoisie and their imperialist state are, including the native bourgeoisie whom this silly nationalism benefits.


Your assertion that socialists shouldn't "coddle" this is incredibly paternalistic. Even just the use of the word "coddle" is demeaning and condescending.What? No, we shouldn't coddle that the same way we don't coddle attacks on abortion rights from women who regret aborting their fetus years later who have been turned into useful idiots by the reactionary right.

[Franz Fanonipants]

bro, the problem is, you're the imperialist here.

someone declining to share a part of their culture that's important to them isn't xenophobia.

[Nolan]

Revleft is fulla ridiculous children vol. 76

You're the only ridiculous child here.


resistance to hegemony isn't "nationalist."

Reducing the issue at hand to "resistance against hegemony" is deceitful and misrepresents the situation.


e. lol "some tribe leader might not like it."

Do you honestly think its unanimous in the tribe?


bro i don't give a shit what indians think let me smokeum peace pipeum. if they don't let me wear an indian baby on my arm as an accessory they're obv. reactionary indians.

j/k with the imperialism, but seriously guys it's not your god-given right to be a part of any culture you choose. now, again, you figure out learning Din'eh on your own, rad, or you're taught, even radder. but sorry i think that the colonizer (and really, we're all colonizers in this sense) doesn't have a right to accessorize themselves with the culture of the oppressed.

What the hell are you talking about?

[Franz Fanonipants]

What the hell are you talking about?

Your burning desire to "speak indian" as a fashion accessory.

[Nolan]

Your burning desire to "speak indian" as a fashion accessory.

Nice little strawman you've constructed here. I guess taking a genuine interest in your people going as far as to try to learn the language is just treating you as a "fashion accessory."

[Nolan]

bro, the problem is, you're the imperialist here.

No, I'm a worker, same as any other anywhere else. I just happen to be a citizen of a country whose ruling class has conned many workers to serve and die as soldiers, etc. in order to increase its wealth and power over other nations. But at the end of the day I have the same interests as the workers of those nations, not "my" ruling class, as they do not share the interests of "their" ruling class.


someone declining to share a part of their culture that's important to them isn't xenophobia.

Creating a them vs. us dichotomy on racial and nativist lines is xenophobia.

[Pavlov's House Party]

Your burning desire to "speak indian" as a fashion accessory.

who the fuck said that?

also, have you ever actually spoken to a native about thier culture? it seems like you're just talking out your ass about "what the indians want", most natives are happy to share their culture with people willing to learn. of course there are some xenophobes on reserves, just as there are xenophobes in white, black, latino etc. communities. this mentality must be overcome if the working class is to succeed in its struggle, and learning about your fellow worker is the best way to do this.

[Franz Fanonipants]

also, have you ever actually spoken to a native about thier culture?

no, I haven't, tell me of these welcoming Indians and their amazing cultures.

e. again, it is not your fucking right to call people who want to preserve their culture away from people who have ostensibly tried to destroy their culture for hundreds of years "xenophobes." gtfo.

e. of e. I'm Mexicano/Hispano from Northern New Mexico. My culture is an open culture, if an Indian (subcontinent, not first nations) immigrant or white dude wants to learn how to carve bultos or speak the particular archaic form of Northern New Mexican/Southern Colorado Spanish, I've got no problem with it. I'm not a Pueblo person, the Pueblo people I've known are more than welcoming and friendly. BUT I don't talk about their religion, language, or way of life with them because unless they share knowledge and information (and they do), it's not my position to go bugging other people about their culture. I know a few words in Tewa and Towa, but I sure as fuck am not going to ask to learn a language that Pueblo people are having trouble preserving anyways. My knowledge of Pueblo languages would be purely academic and that of an outsider, which would help their struggle for preservation that much less.

A man can be my comrade even if I don't know how to say "flower" or "hello" in his language, I don't find using my position as a colonizer to "sample every wonderful culture on earth!" appealing, it's not my place and it's not something I'm interested in doing. You might question your own inherent belief that the world is yours to know about and define, because that seems p. imperialist to me.

[Robocommie]

who the fuck said that?

also, have you ever actually spoken to a native about thier culture? it seems like you're just talking out your ass about "what the indians want", most natives are happy to share their culture with people willing to learn. of course there are some xenophobes on reserves, just as there are xenophobes in white, black, latino etc. communities. this mentality must be overcome if the working class is to succeed in its struggle, and learning about your fellow worker is the best way to do this.

Just because something is private, doesn't mean it's xenophobic. Tribes are extended kin groups, like large families. They don't follow the same cultural patterns as large nations. That they want to keep certain traditions private and closed off from the outside world is rather akin to keeping a family celebration private and only for members of that family.

Why are you so quick to assume that Fanonipants has never spoken to a Native American? He's from the Southwest, there's actually a lot of natives where he's from, it'd be hard not to run into them. To turn your argument around though, you say "most natives" are happy to "share their culture" but have you met "most natives" and know what they think enough to speak for them?

[Franz Fanonipants]

tbh and clarify most of my interaction with Indian people has been with Pueblo people. Of late, I have been working with a group of Apache and am amazed at their relative cultural openness.

At the same time, though, I'm not going to start asking them about their language or religion unless they volunteer the information.

[samofshs]

no, I haven't, tell me of these welcoming Indians and their amazing cultures.

e. again, it is not your fucking right to call people who want to preserve their culture away from people who have ostensibly tried to destroy their culture for hundreds of years "xenophobes." gtfo.

e. of e. I'm Mexicano/Hispano from Northern New Mexico. My culture is an open culture, if an Indian (subcontinent, not first nations) immigrant or white dude wants to learn how to carve bultos or speak the particular archaic form of Northern New Mexican/Southern Colorado Spanish, I've got no problem with it. I'm not a Pueblo person, the Pueblo people I've known are more than welcoming and friendly. BUT I don't talk about their religion, language, or way of life with them because unless they share knowledge and information (and they do), it's not my position to go bugging other people about their culture. I know a few words in Tewa and Towa, but I sure as fuck am not going to ask to learn a language that Pueblo people are having trouble preserving anyways. My knowledge of Pueblo languages would be purely academic and that of an outsider, which would help their struggle for preservation that much less.

A man can be my comrade even if I don't know how to say "flower" or "hello" in his language, I don't find using my position as a colonizer to "sample every wonderful culture on earth!" appealing, it's not my place and it's not something I'm interested in doing. You might question your own inherent belief that the world is yours to know about and define, because that seems p. imperialist to me.
wouldn't it greatly help to preserve a language if you taught it to more people??? doing otherwise just seems counter-productive. now maybe i haven't met most natives, but the ones that i have met will tell you just about anything about their culture language or religion happily. from the view of my native friends raising awareness as to what they really believe just reduces negative stereotyping against "savages".

[Franz Fanonipants]

wouldn't it greatly help to preserve a language if you taught it to more people??? doing otherwise just seems counter-productive. now maybe i haven't met most natives, but the ones that i have met will tell you just about anything about their culture language or religion happily. from the view of my native friends raising awareness as to what they really believe just reduces negative stereotyping against "savages".

There's plenty of academic linguistic information on Indian languages that are rapidly going extinct.

Why?

Because white experts did a lot of work to catalog and learn them (sound familiar?) while enforcing cultural hegemony on Indians themselves.

"Let me classify your language while I fund schools that beat the shit out of your children for speaking your language!"

p.s. Indian food is good though. And I almost always get invited to various feast days and dances at Pueblos. My interaction with Pueblo people has enriched my life, but I recognize that I am an outsider, and that's ok with me.

[samofshs]

There's plenty of academic linguistic information on Indian languages that are rapidly going extinct.

Why?

Because white experts did a lot of work to catalog and learn them (sound familiar?) while enforcing cultural hegemony on Indians themselves.

"Let me classify your language while I fund schools that beat the shit out of your children for speaking your language!"

p.s. Indian food is good though. And I almost always get invited to various feast days and dances at Pueblos. My interaction with Pueblo people has enriched my life, but I recognize that I am an outsider, and that's ok with me.
so what you're saying is, because i want to learn to speak lenni lenape i'm going to beat their children? and you're actually okay with being an outsider based on race? rascism isn't okay just because you're a different race or an oppressed people. if someone genuinely wants to learn and show reverence to native american culture i know where to send them. my native friends actively look for ways to tell people about themselves.

[Franz Fanonipants]

No, I'm saying that you, as an outsider (and yes, I'm alright with being considered not an Indian because I'm not an Indian) learning the language will never be the same as someone within that community learning the language. And for you to insist that learning the language is your right due to some fuzzy, enlightenment-era idea of intellectual entitlement is silly.

Now, by all means hang out with your Indian homies.