Violence Breaks out at Orange Order Parade in Northern Ireland

[Coggeh]

July 12 is the biggest day in Northern Ireland's marching season and sees Protestants mark Prince William of Orange's victory over the Catholic King James II at the Battle of the Boyne in 1690.


Despite the relative calm in Northern Ireland since a peace agreement in 1998, violence frequently breaks out around July 12 as Catholics try to prevent the marches from going ahead.


The attack on the parade came after rioting late Sunday and early Monday that left 27 police injured in the province, including three with gunshot wounds, officials said. None of the injuries were life-threatening.


Link:http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5imJleWBdqCnXumDq_g7lCZ0Hk96w

Also its now likely the Orange Order are going to get permission to have a March in Donegal and also The Queens Visit to Ireland is likely to go ahead. All of this on the backdrop of sectarian tensions which still exist in the north no matter how the media and the right wing govt in the north try and pave over it

[Andropov]

But there have been Orange Order marchs around Rossnowlagh for years?
Anyways let them have their coat trailing triumphalist parades these since its over whelmingly Unionist even though it is in Donegal, its the parades that go through the likes of Ardoyne and the Garvaghy Road where the trouble is.
As for the Queens visit ill copy and paste Connollys article on George V visit since he pretty much hits the nail on the head as per usual.

[Andropov]

Fellow-Workers,

As you are aware from reading the daily and weekly newspapers, we are about to be blessed with a visit from King George V.
Knowing from previous experience of Royal Visits, as well as from the Coronation orgies of the past few weeks, that the occasion will be utilised to make propaganda on behalf of royalty and aristocracy against the oncoming forces of democracy and National freedom, we desire to place before you some few reasons why you should unanimously refuse to countenance this visit, or to recognise it by your presence at its attendant processions or demonstrations. We appeal to you as workers, speaking to workers, whether your work be that of the brain or of the hand – manual or mental toil – it is of you and your children we are thinking; it is your cause we wish to safeguard and foster.
The future of the working class requires that all political and social positions should be open to all men and women; that all privileges of birth or wealth be abolished, and that every man or woman born into this land should have an equal opportunity to attain to the proudest position in the land. The Socialist demands that the only birthright necessary to qualify for public office should be the birthright of our common humanity.
Believing as we do that there is nothing on earth more sacred than humanity, we deny all allegiance to this institution of royalty, and hence we can only regard the visit of the King as adding fresh fuel to the fire of hatred with which we regard the plundering institutions of which he is the representative. Let the capitalist and landlord class flock to exalt him; he is theirs; in him they see embodied the idea of caste and class; they glorify him and exalt his importance that they might familiarise the public mind with the conception of political inequality, knowing well that a people mentally poisoned by the adulation of royalty can never attain to that spirit of self-reliant democracy necessary for the attainment of social freedom. The mind accustomed to political kings can easily be reconciled to social kings – capitalist kings of the workshop, the mill, the railway, the ships and the docks. Thus coronation and king's visits are by our astute never-sleeping masters made into huge Imperialist propagandist campaigns in favour of political and social schemes against democracy. But if our masters and rulers are sleepless in their schemes against us, so we, rebels against their rule, must never sleep in our appeal to our fellows to maintain as publicly our belief in the dignity of our class – in the ultimate sovereignty of those who labour.
What is monarchy? From whence does it derive its sanction? What has been its gift to humanity? Monarchy is a survival of the tyranny imposed by the hand of greed and treachery upon the human race in the darkest and most ignorant days of our history. It derives its only sanction from the sword of the marauder, and the helplessness of the producer, and its gifts to humanity are unknown, save as they can be measured in the pernicious examples of triumphant and shameless iniquities.
Every class in society save royalty, and especially British royalty, has through some of its members contributed something to the elevation of the race. But neither in science, nor in art, nor in literature, nor in exploration, nor in mechanical invention, nor in humanising of laws, nor in any sphere of human activity has a representative of British royalty helped forward the moral, intellectual or material improvement of mankind. But that royal family has opposed every forward move, fought every reform, persecuted every patriot, and intrigued against every good cause. Slandering every friend of the people, it has befriended every oppressor. Eulogised today by misguided clerics, it has been notorious in history for the revolting nature of its crimes. Murder, treachery, adultery, incest, theft, perjury – every crime known to man has been committed by some one or other of the race of monarchs from whom King George is proud to trace his descent.
We will not blame him for the crimes of his ancestors if he relinquishes the royal rights of his ancestors; but as long as he claims their rights, by virtue of descent, then, by virtue of descent, he must shoulder the responsibility for their crimes.
Fellow-workers, stand by the dignity of your class. All these parading royalties, all this insolent aristocracy, all these grovelling, dirt-eating capitalist traitors, all these are but signs of disease in any social state - diseases which a royal visit brings to a head and spews in all its nastiness before our horrified eyes. But as the recognition of the disease is the first stage towards its cure, so that we may rid our social state of its political and social diseases, we must recognise the elements of corruption. Hence, in bringing them all together and exposing their unity, even a royal visit may help us to understand and understanding, help us to know how to destroy the royal, aristocratic and capitalistic classes who live upon our labour. Their workshops, their lands, their mills, their factories, their ships, their railways must be voted into our hands who alone use them, public ownership must take the place of capitalist ownership, social democracy replace political and social inequality, the sovereignty of labour must supersede and destroy the sovereignty of birth and the monarchy of capitalism.
Ours be the task to enlighten the ignorant among our class, to dissipate and destroy the political and social superstitions of the enslaved masses and to hasten the coming day when, in the words of Joseph Brenan, the fearless patriot of '48, all the world will maintain:

'The Right Divine of Labour
To be first of earthly things;
That the Thinker and the Worker
Are Manhood's only Kings.

- James Connolly

[Raúl Duke]

Protestants mark Prince William of Orange's victory over the Catholic King James II at the Battle of the Boyne in 1690.Is it just me or do they purposely do this kind of shit to troll the hell out of catholic/nationalist communities in N.Ireland? I mean, who the fuck really cares about some "victory" between 2 monarchs that occur 300-400 years ago.

[Andropov]

Is it just me or do they purposely do this kind of shit to troll the hell out of catholic/nationalist communities in N.Ireland? I mean, who the fuck really cares about some "victory" between 2 monarchs that occur 300-400 years ago.
Of course it is.
I think it was Connolly that said something along the lines of "the most pointless war any Irishman has ever fought in", and thats saying something.

[Mindtoaster]

Footage of the street fighting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWAPafHuhUo&feature=player_embedded

Helicopter footage, thats huuundreds of rioters

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT7l81Gf5g8

More footage from all over

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P26LdH258q0&feature=player_embedded#!

Sky News report

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jht5gCQQmYg&feature=player_embedded

Really good footage from a spanish language website

http://www.eitb.com/videos/noticias/internacional/detalle/465985/3-policias-heridos-desfile-orangista-belfast/

[bcbm]

the cop getting hit with a bike was fucking priceless

[Mindtoaster]

Cops trying to remove Ardoyne residents blocking the march through their neighborhood

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kOZoKDGTF8&feature=related

Attmepted hijacking of a train in Lurgan

http://www.u.tv/News/Trouble-flares-in-Lurgan/ac9c9846-baf1-4e20-9cae-eb091bf4d146

Photos of the rioting

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/in-pictures-police-attacked-in-ardoyne-as-orange-orders-twelfth-parade-takes-place-14874507.html?action=Popup&ino=11

[Coggeh]

Attmepted hijacking of a train in Lurgan

http://www.u.tv/News/Trouble-flares-...e-eb091bf4d146 (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.u.tv/News/Trouble-flares-in-Lurgan/ac9c9846-baf1-4e20-9cae-eb091bf4d146)
When i saw that on the news yesterday I couldn't stop laughing, wtf like "bai's ! lets stop and hijack a train and then set it on fire " lol

Obviously I condemn the action although it is a direct result of the discontention of Catholic youth and workers of the sectarian and racist marches by the Orange Order

[Saorsa]

Good stuff

[Raúl Duke]

While I don't want to say "I'm picking this side" (although I do have a soft spot for the catholic/nationalist republicans, even though national liberation by itself does not free the working class) in this sectarian conflict...

Whatever occurred those Orange bastard trolls deserve it for being provocative for no real reason besides being provocative; they wanted to start shit so now they get to reap what they sow.

[Adi Shankara]

It just goes to show, even in the so-called "1st world', where supposedly, everyone is rendered with complacency because of their "high living conditions"...you can't stop the opposition to imperialism.

This isn't a "Catholics lash out against protestants" deal; this is purely Irish opposition to the ugly head of British colonization.

[Madvillainy]

These riots do nothing but perpetuate and strengthen division and sectarianism in the north. The only winners in this are the bigots on both sides, the orange order gets to act like the victim and their support grows stronger while republicans get to present themselves as anti-fascist/anti-imperialist warriors or whatever.

The real losers are the working class. Because like I said sectarianism and the barriers separating the two communities will only be strengthened by this shit.

[Coggeh]

It just goes to show, even in the so-called "1st world', where supposedly, everyone is rendered with complacency because of their "high living conditions"...you can't stop the opposition to imperialism.

This isn't a "Catholics lash out against protestants" deal; this is purely Irish opposition to the ugly head of British colonization.
This isn't an "Irish opposition to British colonization"; thats quite a naive statement. These are the actions of alienated youth and communities against unemployment, decreasing living standards and conditions. These are being manifested by sporadic riots and actions and not by organized mass struggle of workers.
These are the same actions "anti-imperialists" and leftists of certain sections condemned in Greece (and rightly so) but because their in a soft spot(N.Ireland) for the "anti imperialist" left they are embraced as "revolutionary" and "anti-imperialist".

[Adi Shankara]

This isn't an "Irish opposition to British colonization"; thats quite a naive statement. These are the actions of alienated youth and communities against unemployment, decreasing living standards and conditions. These are being manifested by sporadic riots and actions and not by organized mass struggle of workers.

do they need to be organized? they're still lashing out against colonization. they can't rule their own destiny, because a foreign power controls it.

[Crimson Commissar]

do they need to be organized? they're still lashing out against colonization. they can't rule their own destiny, because a foreign power controls it.
And you think they'd be any better off under the Republic of Ireland?

[Pretty Flaco]

I remember reading somewhere that IRA members were getting pissed off because they thought all of the rioters were dumbasses.

[Saorsa]

The IRA is demobilised.

[Mindtoaster]

I remember reading somewhere that IRA members were getting pissed off because they thought all of the rioters were dumbasses.

Most the ex-provos (PIRA does not exist anymore) are grumpy, tired, old men these days. So thats probably true

[Andropov]

These riots do nothing but perpetuate and strengthen division and sectarianism in the north. The only winners in this are the bigots on both sides, the orange order gets to act like the victim and their support grows stronger while republicans get to present themselves as anti-fascist/anti-imperialist warriors or whatever.
Ridiculous.
So your saying that these working class communities should indeed permit the sectarian coat trailing excercise and permit the Orange Order to march through their communities and besiege them annually?
This would be more progressive than resisting the legitimising of this Sectarian coat trialing triumphalism?

The real losers are the working class. Because like I said sectarianism and the barriers separating the two communities will only be strengthened by this shit.
Sectarianism is a product of Imperialism.
These riots are a reaction to a Sectarian organisation, a degenrate supremacist organisation.
These riots no more strenghten Sectarianism than an African American community rioting to prevent the KKK marching through their communitys strenghtens racism.

[Andropov]

And you think they'd be any better off under the Republic of Ireland?
Yes of fucking course.
I thought that was blatantly obvious.
The last time I chekced the Free State with all its glaring faults and failings did not conduct state sponsored terrorism or conduct ethnic cleansing pogroms against its minoritys.

[Andropov]

I remember reading somewhere that IRA members were getting pissed off because they thought all of the rioters were dumbasses.
Are you refering to the Provisional IRA?
As in the Armani Suit brigade?
Those who are sharing power with the most Bigoted Right Wing party in power in Europe?
You do realise that any principled member of the Provisional Movement has either left or defected to the likes of Eirigi or the 32s?

[fionntan]

Being from Ardoyne i can tell you this was a riot against the facist Orange Order AKA the KKK. The resistance shown by the people of the district against these filth is commendable. As was the actions from the IRA on the night.

[Coggeh]

Yes of fucking course.
I thought that was blatantly obvious.
How so? The north which is an economically unviable entity is dependant on the 6billion it recieves from the UK. Image if that was gone and Brian Lenihan had to make 6 billion worth of cuts not to mention the huge job losses etc that would go N.I leaving the UK. Also their is a better quality of life in the North, with higher wages (with consideration to prices) i.e you can buy more for you buck in the North. Free Health care under the NHS a 6.7% unemployment rate comparable with a 15.6% unemployment rate in the south.
The joining of the 26 and 6 counties would be nothing other than the joining of two dole queues.



The last time I chekced the Free State with all its glaring faults and failings did not conduct state sponsored terrorism or conduct ethnic cleansing pogroms against its minoritys.
They done sweet fuck all about it.

[Andropov]

How so? The north which is an economically unviable entity is dependant on the 6billion it recieves from the UK. Image if that was gone and Brian Lenihan had to make 6 billion worth of cuts not to mention the huge job losses etc that would go N.I leaving the UK. Also their is a better quality of life in the North, with higher wages (with consideration to prices) i.e you can buy more for you buck in the North. Free Health care under the NHS a 6.7% unemployment rate comparable with a 15.6% unemployment rate in the south.
The joining of the 26 and 6 counties would be nothing other than the joining of two dole queues.
Im not disputing the economic insentives because thats neither here nor there.
Also the standard of living North of the border is alot worse than the South from my experience.

They done sweet fuck all about it.
That matters what exactly?
Massive difference in being impotent to stop it and being a willing instigator of sectarian pogroms.

[Crux]

Yes of fucking course.
I thought that was blatantly obvious.
The last time I chekced the Free State with all its glaring faults and failings did not conduct state sponsored terrorism or conduct ethnic cleansing pogroms against its minoritys.
So joining the free state is the line of the republicans these days? Well, I guess it's the logical conclusion for some.

[Crimson Commissar]

Yes of fucking course.
I thought that was blatantly obvious.
The last time I chekced the Free State with all its glaring faults and failings did not conduct state sponsored terrorism or conduct ethnic cleansing pogroms against its minoritys.
They're both fucking capitalist. Quit your biased nationalism, both the British state and the Irish state are terrible and we should be opposed to them. We should be in support of an independent SOCIALIST Ireland, not the capitalist shithole republic that exists today.

[Andropov]

So joining the free state is the line of the republicans these days? Well, I guess it's the logical conclusion for some.
Link to where I said joining the free state was my line?
I look forward to this.

[Andropov]

They're both fucking capitalist.
So your saying that there is no difference between the Capitalist German State as it is now or when it was a Facist Capitalist Germany?
One is not more progressive than the other, no?
Because they are both Capitalist, right?
You clown.

Quit your biased nationalism, both the British state and the Irish state are terrible and we should be opposed to them.
Pffthaha the English Chauvanist calling me a Nationalist, classic.
So you see no difference between the Brit state that had state sponsored terrorism and armed and facilitated ethnic cleansing in the form of sectarian pogroms and the Free State?

We should be in support of an independent SOCIALIST Ireland, not the capitalist shithole republic that exists today.
And apologies there young man, but where exactly did I say I supported the Free State?

[RepublicanSocialist]

These riots do nothing but perpetuate and strengthen division and sectarianism in the north. The only winners in this are the bigots on both sides, the orange order gets to act like the victim and their support grows stronger while republicans get to present themselves as anti-fascist/anti-imperialist warriors or whatever.

The real losers are the working class. Because like I said sectarianism and the barriers separating the two communities will only be strengthened by this shit.


Id say the real losers are the PSNI/RUC who got put in hospital!

What perpetuates division and sectarianism in the north are archaic and bigoted institutions such as the orange order believing they have the right to march "the queens highways" as they put it. In most other societies, the marches would be deemed provocative and banned or rerouted to areas where they are welcome.

What reaction would you recomend to young working class people to protest and bigoted triumphalist marchers parading through their areas? Peacefull protesters were also dragged off the street by the PSNI/RUC to make way for the marchers. SO what course of action is left?

[Crux]

Link to where I said joining the free state was my line?
I look forward to this.
http://www.revleft.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1803631&postcount=21

[Crux]

Id say the real losers are the PSNI/RUC who got put in hospital!

What perpetuates division and sectarianism in the north are archaic and bigoted institutions such as the orange order believing they have the right to march "the queens highways" as they put it. In most other societies, the marches would be deemed provocative and banned or rerouted to areas where they are welcome.

What reaction would you recomend to young working class people to protest and bigoted triumphalist marchers parading through their areas? Peacefull protesters were also dragged off the street by the PSNI/RUC to make way for the marchers. SO what course of action is left?
Blocking the marches as peacefully as possible, that would be the best way to stop them. Breaking up support for unionism in the protestant working class. We can hardly trust either self-styled "IRA's" nor the stormont government to do the work for us.

[Coggeh]

Im not disputing the economic insentives because thats neither here nor there.
Also the standard of living North of the border is alot worse than the South from my experience.
I've never lived in the north so I can't provide a first hand account but the wages, conditions in the workplace and economic rights(right to health care/education etc) are all better than the south.

That matters what exactly?
Massive difference in being impotent to stop it and being a willing instigator of sectarian pogroms.
It means they didn't give a shit about it. Also the free state actually funded the Provo's not to fight the British but to break away from the left wing leanings of the IRA at the time.

[Boyle1888]

Blocking the marches as peacefully as possible, that would be the best way to stop them. Breaking up support for unionism in the protestant working class. We can hardly trust either self-styled "IRA's" nor the stormont government to do the work for us.


"Blocking marches as peacefully as possible"- Peaceful protestors had a "sitdown" protest and were dragged away by RUC. Is violence not the next logical step for disillusioned republicans in these areas?

How do you propose to "break up support for unionism" in unionist areas?

[Crux]

"Blocking marches as peacefully as possible"- Peaceful protestors had a "sitdown" protest and were dragged away by RUC. Is violence not the next logical step for disillusioned republicans in these areas?

How do you propose to "break up support for unionism" in unionist areas?
just because something is the "Logical step" does not make it the ocrrect approach. I'm not a pacifist by any means.

Class struggle.

[Mindtoaster]

Class struggle.

There isn't a chance in hell of working class unity (to a degree required to incubate revolution) in the six counties while sectarianism is institutionalized through partition. Unionists make up half, if not a majority of the working class and they won't want to unite with nationalist workers while they still think they have something to lose.

Dealing with nationality will always be at the center of politics in the North, until Britain is removed.

Sectarianism will always distract from class struggle until it is defeated, just as racism will always distract from class struggle in the US until it is defeated. The comparisons drawn between the KKK marching through black neighborhoods and the Orange fascists marching through Ardoyne are completely relevant. If You read the unionists complaints about the protests against the march, they're depressingly similar to those of white nationalists: "We have to respect your culture, why don't you respect ours!?".

These protesters were resisting an obviously provocative sectarian attack against their community, so I say fair play to them.

Sorry if this posts seems kind of like an unorganized ramble, I'm in a rush to leave my house right now :blushing:

[Crux]

Well, the rub of the nub is, how do you overcome secterianism? Through common workingclass struggle and opposition to secterianism. You've got yourself in a catch-22 situation.

[We Shall Rise Again]

These riots do nothing but perpetuate and strengthen division and sectarianism in the north. The only winners in this are the bigots on both sides, the orange order gets to act like the victim and their support grows stronger while republicans get to present themselves as anti-fascist/anti-imperialist warriors or whatever.

The real losers are the working class. Because like I said sectarianism and the barriers separating the two communities will only be strengthened by this shit.


What a flawed post

The Isuue here is that a sectarian Fascist organisation, the orange order had there racist march forced through an area where it was not wanted, and it was forced through by the imperial british government, an their local paramilitary police.

the orange order is an anti working class racisit order andd all socialists should oppose it as much as we oppose the KKK or neo nazi's on our streets.

Fair play to the residents of Ardoyne, the blame for violence lies with the British administration and the Orange order.

[Crux]

What a flawed post

The Isuue here is that a sectarian Fascist organisation, the orange order had there racist march forced through an area where it was not wanted, and it was forced through by the imperial british government, an their local paramilitary police.

the orange order is an anti working class racisit order andd all socialists should oppose it as much as we oppose the KKK or neo nazi's on our streets.

Fair play to the residents of Ardoyne, the blame for violence lies with the British administration and the Orange order.
Please show me which poster it is that does not oppose the orange order. And weren't you banned?

[Andropov]

http://www.revleft.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1803631&postcount=21
That doesnt say that joining the free state is my political line.
Now show me where I was alleged to have said it?

[Andropov]

Blocking the marches as peacefully as possible, that would be the best way to stop them.
That was tried and the peelers just attacked the peacefull protestors, theres videos of it.
So no that doesnt work in this context.

Breaking up support for unionism in the protestant working class. We can hardly trust either self-styled "IRA's" nor the stormont government to do the work for us.
This option is not going to come to fruition for a considerable amount of time, until this does happen what do you suggest the people of Ardoyne and the like do until this is achieved?

[Andropov]

I've never lived in the north so I can't provide a first hand account but the wages, conditions in the workplace and economic rights(right to health care/education etc) are all better than the south.
I suggest you look at the real figures that matter to people, the general standard of health in the North, the mental health of people in the North, the life expectancey of people in the North, the substance abuse for people in the North.
All of these are disproportionally higher than in the south.

It means they didn't give a shit about it.
And you are are suggesting that I think they do?
I am really failing to see your point here.
You seem to be incapable of grasping the fundamentals here, that the British State sponsored state terrorism and helped facilitate ethnic cleansings in the form of pogroms and so the Free State is infinitely more progressive than the British State in this regaurd.
Im not suggesting they are some form of heros or something to aspire to, im merely pointing out a matter of historical fact that Draconid doesnt like to approach.
What is so difficult in all of this?

Also the free state actually funded the Provo's not to fight the British but to break away from the left wing leanings of the IRA at the time.
Yet more irrelevant points.
I know the history of the Provisional Movement and Fianna Fail.

[Andropov]

just because something is the "Logical step" does not make it the ocrrect approach. I'm not a pacifist by any means.

Class struggle.
Ohh sweet jesus, what a cop out.
Ladys and Gents the debating equivilant of running away.

[Crux]

That doesnt say that joining the free state is my political line.
Now show me where I was alleged to have said it?
I am sorry, but it seemed you confused the republic with the free state. No worries. Common mistake. Just look at Sinn Fein.

[Andropov]

I am sorry, but it seemed you confused the republic with the free state. No worries. Common mistake. Just look at Sinn Fein.
Show me where I said that joining the free state was my political line?

[Crux]

Ohh sweet jesus, what a cop out.
Ladys and Gents the debating equivilant of running away.
Basic questions deserve basic answers.

[Andropov]

Basic questions deserve basic answers.
There is nothing basic about a very complex context.
Such flippancy to this context could explain your juvenile answer to its intricate problems.
At least Coggeh engages with posts, you lower the standard of debate.

[Crux]

Show me where I said that joining the free state was my political line?
I already did. Or rather you said it was a preferable state to now. A first stage goal perhaps? That's the problem with stageists, there's rarely just two stages for them, it quickly multiplies and gets compromised away an viola: common reformsm. Or in your case sinn fein, I suppose.

[Andropov]

I already did. Or rather you said it was a preferable state to now.
So I didnt say that joining the free state was my political line?
So you just lied about my post and have continued to avoid responsibility for doing so until now?

A first stage goal perhaps? That's the problem with stageists, there's rarely just two stages for them, it quickly multiplies and gets compromised away an viola: common reformsm. Or in your case sinn fein, I suppose.
Link to where I said it was a first stage goal?
Your attempts to assosciate me with Provisional Sinn Fein are about as successfull as your attempts at creating a Strawman.
At least have the spine to engage with me on my politics instead of having to resort to lieing and distorting my arguement.

[Crux]

There is nothing basic about a very complex context.
Such flippancy to this context could explain your juvenile answer to its intricate problems.
At least Coggeh engages with posts, you lower the standard of debate.
I believe we have talked before. And yes this is basic, fundamental even, the liberation of opressed nations and fights against ethnic conflict can only be solved through a solid class perspective. Something which you could hardly claim being the forefront of republican ideology, traditionally. Now sure there are many republicans who take part in class struggle, but the failure to fully understand the national question backs you into a dead end. Just look at the history o the republican movement and it's plainly obvious.

[Crux]

So I didnt say that joining the free state was my political line?
So you just lied about my post and have continued to avoid responsibility for doing so until now?

Link to where I said it was a first stage goal?
Your attempts to assosciate me with Provisional Sinn Fein are about as successfull as your attempts at creating a Strawman.
At least have the spine to engage with me on my politics instead of having to resort to lieing and distorting my arguement.
You seemed to be answering the question "Should Northern Ireland join the Free State?" with a yes. What other conclusion could I possibly draw from that statement, in the way you framed it?

[Andropov]

I believe we have talked before. And yes this is basic, fundamental even, the liberation of opressed nations and fights against ethnic conflict can only be solved through a solid class perspective.
Well if it is indeed so easy, why have the CWI not transformed Ireland with their economism?

Something which you could hardly claim being the forefront of republican ideology, traditionally.
Traditionally Republicans were at the forefront of the biggest example of working class unity in Ireland in the past 200 years.
The Gas and Water Protests and The Civil Rights Campaign.
Showing yourself up there again pal.

Now sure there are many republicans who take part in class struggle, but the failure to fully understand the national question backs you into a dead end.
The point is we do understand the National Question.
It is the economist approach of the CWI that is redundant and has been since the turn of the century.

Just look at the history o the republican movement and it's plainly obvious.
Look at it in comparison to the shining examples of the Economist approach?
Your lack of perspective is really quite glaring.

[Andropov]

You seemed to be answering the question "Should Northern Ireland join the Free State?" with a yes.
I thought you might finally have owned up and call it quits but you seem perfectly content with showing up your own lies again.
The question that was asked was this....

And you think they'd be any better off under the Republic of Ireland?
and my reply was this....

Yes of fucking course.
I thought that was blatantly obvious.
The last time I chekced the Free State with all its glaring faults and failings did not conduct state sponsored terrorism or conduct ethnic cleansing pogroms against its minoritys.
As you can see nowhere was there a question "Should Northern Ireland join the free state".
And nowhere did I answer "yes" or that "my political line is taht we should join the free state".
Stung out again as the blatant lier you are and whats more not even the spine to hold your hands up and say you were wrong.

What other conclusion could I possibly draw from that statement, in the way you framed it?
Bizarre.
In the last post in relation to your lies you came to partly the correct conclusion but now have gone back to defending a position shown to be absolutely bogus.
Save some face from this.

[Crux]

Well if it is indeed so easy, why have the CWI not transformed Ireland with their economism?

Traditionally Republicans were at the forefront of the biggest example of working class unity in Ireland in the past 200 years.
The Gas and Water Protests and The Civil Rights Campaign.
Showing yourself up there again pal.

The point is we do understand the National Question.
It is the economist approach of the CWI that is redundant and has been since the turn of the century.

Look at it in comparison to the shining examples of the Economist approach?
Your lack of perspective is really quite glaring.
What with the glorious victory of INLA, why yes why the need for "economism"? Hahaha. Comrade, don't play around with words you do not understand. Yes I've read Connolly's "Gas and Water Socialists"-article, it's good, but it's rubbish in the way you attempt to use it. As if the CWI has not consistently adressed the national question in Ireland, and not only there but in Israel/Palestine, Kashmir, Sri Lanka and many other countries where we have sections as well.

[Andropov]

What with the glorious victory of INLA, why yes why the need for "economism"? Hahaha.
Link to where the INLA has claimed victory?

Comrade, don't play around with words you do not understand.
Im not your comrade and your attempt to laugh this off and make inane remarks such as the above only further highlights the absolute ineptitude of your position and your ability to argue it.

Yes I've read Connolly's "Gas and Water Socialists"-article, it's good, but it's rubbish in the way you attempt to use it. As if the CWI has not consistently adressed the national question in Ireland,and not only there but in Israel/Palestine, Kashmir, Sri Lanka and many other countries where we have sections as well.
The CWI are a carbon copy of the economists of Connollys day.
The CWI have consistantly failed to address any national question be it in Palestine or in Ireland.
It is my major disagreement with the CWI.
There was a good debate about this in another thread.

[Crux]

I thought you might finally have owned up and call it quits but you seem perfectly content with showing up your own lies again.
The question that was asked was this....

and my reply was this....

As you can see nowhere was there a question "Should Northern Ireland join the free state".
And nowhere did I answer "yes" or that "my political line is taht we should join the free state".
Stung out again as the blatant lier you are and whats more not even the spine to hold your hands up and say you were wrong.

Bizarre.
In the last post in relation to your lies you came to partly the correct conclusion but now have gone back to defending a position shown to be absolutely bogus.
Save some face from this.
Well, you've quoted yourself. Even if you can't own up to the consequence of what you said, well I suppose that is your problem. If you are unable to discuss it, well fine, but your acceptance of the free state as better hardly flows from a consistently socialist approach.

[Andropov]

Well, you've quoted yourself. Even if you can't own up to the consequence of what you said, well I suppose that is your problem. If you are unable to discuss it, well fine, but your acceptance of the free state as better hardly flows from a consistently socialist approach.
So you are back claiming that I stated "my political line is that we should join the free state"?
If so prove it, show me where I said it?

[Crux]

Link to where the INLA has claimed victory?

Im not your comrade and your attempt to laugh this off and make inane remarks such as the above only further highlights the absolute ineptitude of your position and your ability to argue it.

The CWI are a carbon copy of the economists of Connollys day.
The CWI have consistantly failed to address any national question be it in Palestine or in Ireland.
It is my major disagreement with the CWI.
There was a good debate about this in another thread.
Here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm)

Oh christ, do you want a barrage of links to CWI articles and books even on the national question? I mean blatant denialism here isn't really helping your case here.

[Andropov]

Here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm)
You sent me a link to Sarcasm on Wikipedia?
Is that an attempt at humour?
About as successfull as you showing me where I said "my political line is that we should join the free state"?
Now in your own time show me where I claimed this?

Oh christ, do you want a barrage of links to CWI articles and books even on the national question? I mean blatant denialism here isn't really helping your case here.
I didnt ask for any links on the National Question so your claim yet again is groundless.
I have had plenty of contact with the CWI on the National Questiona and seen their flawed Economist policies.
Like I said before you threw the rattle out of the pram there that there was a good debate on the CWI on the National Question in Palestine only there a week or two ago.
Also another good example was in the Nepal forum where Comrade Allister demolished the reformist CWI position on Nepal.

[AK]

Yes of fucking course.
I thought that was blatantly obvious.
The last time I chekced the Free State with all its glaring faults and failings did not conduct state sponsored terrorism
Because the ROI isn't involved Afghanistan at all... :rolleyes:

[Andropov]

Because the ROI isn't involved Afghanistan at all... :rolleyes:
What are you on about?

[AK]

What are you on about?
You said Ireland doesn't conduct state terrorism. But it's helping to occupy Aghanistan.

[Andropov]

You said Ireland doesn't conduct state terrorism. But it's helping to occupy Aghanistan.
No I didnt.
I said it didnt conduct state terrorism in referance to its minoritys.
Since the suggestion was that Irish people were as well off under partition as they are in the Free State.
Its really not that complex a point.

[Crux]

You sent me a link to Sarcasm on Wikipedia?
Is that an attempt at humour?
About as successfull as you showing me where I said "my political line is that we should join the free state"?
Now in your own time show me where I claimed this?

I didnt ask for any links on the National Question so your claim yet again is groundless.
I have had plenty of contact with the CWI on the National Questiona and seen their flawed Economist policies.
Like I said before you threw the rattle out of the pram there that there was a good debate on the CWI on the National Question in Palestine only there a week or two ago.
Also another good example was in the Nepal forum where Comrade Allister demolished the reformist CWI position on Nepal.
Now claiming victory for INLA is humour. Sarcasm.
I did that the first time you asked that question, that you're still in denial about this is your problem.

Comrade Alastair did no such thing, I took part in that debate too remember. And yes I took part in the Palestine thread as well. It seems you must have selective memory, comrade.

[Crux]

No I didnt.
I said it didnt conduct state terrorism in referance to its minoritys.
Since the suggestion was that Irish people were as well off under partition as they are in the Free State.
Its really not that complex a point.
Only that's utopian nonsense at best. how do you propose this "ending of partition" by NI joining the Free State? You were answereing the question whetver NI would be any better of under the ROI, remember?

[Andropov]

Now claiming victory for INLA is humour. Sarcasm.
I did that the first time you asked that question, that you're still in denial about this is your problem.
No you didnt.
Show me where I claimed "my political line is that we should join the free state"?
This is a simple request, either back up your assertion or withdraw it.

Comrade Alastair did no such thing, I took part in that debate too remember. And yes I took part in the Palestine thread as well. It seems you must have selective memory, comrade.
More of your blatant and embarressing lies.
Heres your last post in that thread....

I am going off to our summercamp tommorow, and as I said there will be one comrade there who recently returned from Nepal that will hold a report about the situation there, so I will try and write something longer after that.
And yet over two weeks later and no reply?
Its not so wise to make such blatant falacys on an interent forum where there is a documented record of all your posts, it shows you up for what you are.

[Andropov]

Only that's utopian nonsense at best.
Due to historical fact its blatantly obvious its not.
The Free State has always had a sizeable Protestant minority that were never victims of state sponsored violence, indeed they were always predominantly more wealthy than the rest of the population.

how do you propose this "ending of partition" by NI joining the Free State?
I dont propose the ending of partition and joining the Free State.
I never once proposed it.
I merely made a simple point that the people of Ireland would have been better off in the Free State than under British Rule, a simple observation.

You were answereing the question whetver NI would be any better of under the ROI, remember?
Yes and I stated that the Irish people would be better off without partition than with it.
Does that mean I want to work towards that goal? No.
Why? Because im not a stageist.
What do I want? A 32 County Socialist Republic.
How do I achieve that? Through Class mobilisation that breaks Sectarian barriers.
So how do I differ from the CWI position? I dont believe that legitimising certain aspects of Unionism will bring cross community mobilisation any closer.
I hope that clears up any confusion on my position here.

[Crux]

And yet over two weeks later and no reply?
Its not so wise to make such blatant falacys on an interent forum where there is a documented record of all your posts, it shows you up for what you are.
I'll get to it then, later this evening even, if possible. Believe it or not sometimes I lose track of the threads I post in.

Well, thanks for clearing your position up then. Do you now see why that was hardly obvious from your initial post?

[ABCofcommunism]

Does any of this really matter, we should condemn both sides, this is a sectarian conflict and we should oppose both sides, why should we take the catholic workers side and not the protestant. The unionists have just as much right to their traditions as the nationalists. This kind of rioting is useless, we shouldn't stoop to their level.

[fionntan]

Does any of this really matter, we should condemn both sides, this is a sectarian conflict and we should oppose both sides, why should we take the catholic workers side and not the protestant. The unionists have just as much right to their traditions as the nationalists. This kind of rioting is useless, we shouldn't stoop to their level.


It is not a "sectarian conflict" It is a national liberation struggle for freedom. You really should not comment on things that its obvious you know nothing about.

[Andropov]

I'll get to it then, later this evening even, if possible. Believe it or not sometimes I lose track of the threads I post in.
No problem.

Well, thanks for clearing your position up then. Do you now see why that was hardly obvious from your initial post?
TBH my point was fairly simple, not very complex.
No need for confusion but in the future before making innacurate assertions just ask me to clarify and then we can avoid all this confusion.

[Andropov]

Does any of this really matter, we should condemn both sides, this is a sectarian conflict and we should oppose both sides, why should we take the catholic workers side and not the protestant.
Im not taking the Catholic workers side and I dont see anyone doing that.
Im taking the side of a victimised working class who are resisting in any way they can against a bigoted supremacist and degenerate organisation that is the Orange Order from having a coat railing triumphilist march through their community.
That is no more sectarian than it is racist to support an African American who resist a KKK march through their community.

The unionists have just as much right to their traditions as the nationalists.
This is just bizarre.
You are actually supporting and condoning the Orange Order because it is their 'tradition'?
Using that logic you could condone the Unionist Hegemony in Partitioned Ireland.

This kind of rioting is useless, we shouldn't stoop to their level.
This kind of rioting is of a community refusing to become doormats to Loyalist Degenerates who pride themselves on a special day of humiliation every July over a vulnerable minority.

Before you make another post on this subject I suggest you educate yourself in this context a little more because what you have spewed out here now is just Bourgeois scripted rehtorric on Ireland.

[Soldier of life]

Andropov's point is quite simple, that being, that an independent capitalist country is more progressive than a capitalist country occupied by an imperialist super-power, it really isn't too hard to comprehend.

I mean, this whole issue of sectarianism dominates political discourse in the North and is the principle wedge between working class people in Ireland. Throughout Ireland's history, the development of class politics has been retarded by the occupation, and even to this day we see the ugly face of imperialism through Orange institutions like the OO, and we see sectarianism institutionalised under the GFA, which ultimately means the working class remains divided through means that emanate from imperialism. It boggles the mind that people think that imperialism, with all the ills it drags along with it as well as the institutional sectarianism, division and discrimination it has brought to Ireland, is on an equal footing to an Irish Republic.

No-one is arguing that an Irish Republic, or 32-county version of the free state let's say, is something socialists should strive for. But it must be acknowledged that sectarianism in Ireland has been brought about by imperialism, and an ending of the occupation of Ireland would be a progressive step in removing the artificial barriers of working class division that emanate from imperialism and the sectarian institutions it created and now rewards under the Belfast Agreement.

It is very easy for leftists to say 'oh have a revolution, the key is to unite the working class, have a revolution' blah blah...the reality is that the Belfast Agreement and imperialism makes any inroads into breaking down sectarianism and reaching out to Protestant workers difficult to say the least. As I said, sectarianism is now enshrined in the very structure of political discourse in the North, and as it is in the interests of the establishment parties to keep that going, they simply throw fuel to the sectarian fire come election time to ensure their vote is retained.

The position of republican socialists is that it is the working class, whether they be catholic, protestant or dissenter, who are the ones who must mobilise to end the occupation and lay the foundations for a socialist republic of Ireland. A United Ireland would be a step in the right direction if socialism did not come with it even, because it would break down many of the institutions that perpetuate working class division via sectarianism, but it is far from an end goal. The end goal is a free Ireland not just politically, but economically and socially aswell, and that means the common ownership of the means of wealth production in the hands of workers. I hope that a movement can be built whereby the working class mobilises toward socialist revolution, and in the process smashes imperialism and capitalism simultaneously, and all this talk of whether a capitalist united Ireland would be more progressive or not is rendered as nothing more than idle theorising, in relation to Ireland at least.

[ABCofcommunism]

It is not a "sectarian conflict" It is a national liberation struggle for freedom. You really should not comment on things that its obvious you know nothing about.
Its the same with anyone who supports the irish republicans, u charge on about how its a liberation struggle but what about what the unionists want, surely as they live there (whether them being there is right or wrong, it doesn't matter, their there and have as much right to a voice as anyone) they have a right to decide what happens as well. Do you know what will happen if the irish republicans take over northern Ireland? the unionist paramilitaries will take the place of the republicans and the bloodshed will continue.

[RepublicanSocialist]

Where is anybody saying Unionists do not have a right to live there? What people are saying is that they should not have a right to provocatively march through areas where the population overwhelmingly do not want them to.

On your second point, are you saying that the people of Ireland alone have no right to acheive national liberation because of the potential reactions of Unionists? If that logic was followed, there would be no national liberation struggles anywhere in the world as there are always loyalist elements in a colonial system.

[ABCofcommunism]

what i'm trying to point out is that, yes ireland should be one country if thats what all the people want, but a sizeable minority (the unionists) don't want that and for the same reason we cannot deny the nationalists the right to independence we cannot force the unionists into something they don't want. And you seem to be under the impression i am alright with what the orange order is doing, no what their doing is wrong, but if you want to stop them, then no more nationalist marches either.

[Coggeh]

Andropov's point is quite simple, that being, that an independent capitalist country is more progressive than a capitalist country occupied by an imperialist super-power, it really isn't too hard to comprehend.
Tell me, how would the north be more progressive under rule from Dublin? You would still have huge sectarianism(more so than now). You would have loss of huge amounts of jobs and would have a nice 6 billion a year hole in the budget. Not to mention the elimination of the NHS and all other benefits that go with living in the north.



I mean, this whole issue of sectarianism dominates political discourse in the North and is the principle wedge between working class people in Ireland. Throughout Ireland's history, the development of class politics has been retarded by the occupation, and even to this day we see the ugly face of imperialism through Orange institutions like the OO, and we see sectarianism institutionalised under the GFA, which ultimately means the working class remains divided through means that emanate from imperialism. It boggles the mind that people think that imperialism, with all the ills it drags along with it as well as the institutional sectarianism, division and discrimination it has brought to Ireland, is on an equal footing to an Irish Republic. So your saying that class politics can never take hold until the 32 counties are back? I'm not sure if you are but I'll make the point anyway and if its not the case then this point doesnt stand no worries:
If that is the case sectarian tensions would dramatically increase, I don't think you realise also that a 32 capitalist republic is impossible. Massive unionist opposition(which is far easier mobilised than nationalist oppisition) and backing from Westminster make it impossible.



No-one is arguing that an Irish Republic, or 32-county version of the free state let's say, is something socialists should strive for. But it must be acknowledged that sectarianism in Ireland has been brought about by imperialism, and an ending of the occupation of Ireland would be a progressive step in removing the artificial barriers of working class division that emanate from imperialism and the sectarian institutions it created and now rewards under the Belfast Agreement.
How do you think sectarian tensions would suddenly be removed under a 32 country republic? Like I've pointed out their would be a massive increase in sectarian tensions as Unionists would never agree to becoming part of the free state.


It is very easy for leftists to say 'oh have a revolution, the key is to unite the working class, have a revolution' blah blah...the reality is that the Belfast Agreement and imperialism makes any inroads into breaking down sectarianism and reaching out to Protestant workers difficult to say the least.
No its far easier to ramble on about "Anti Imperialism etc etc National Liberation!" while mixing and matching your politics with blends of green and red.
No it doesn't, pursuing the wrong tactics of national liberation and not class liberation make it impossible to reach out to the unionist working class. Without the support of masses of unionist workers no successful revolution can happen.



As I said, sectarianism is now enshrined in the very structure of political discourse in the North, and as it is in the interests of the establishment parties to keep that going, they simply throw fuel to the sectarian fire come election time to ensure their vote is retained.
Yes when election time comes the sectarian drums start to bang once again. But were not defeatists, and people and as easily swayed as you may think. With a class alternative in the north it would instantly become a threat to the sectarian politics of the day. We have seen in the past in the north during the troubles class unity across a trade union basis and with an organised left alternative working with trade unions this can spread past the sectarian divide.

For example during the troubles surrounding the bogside local residents in the shankill got organised and brought back catholic residents who had fled their homes, they organised community defense forces and fought against sectarian gangs as weel as in the docks where prodestant and catholic shop stewards made sure catholics could return to work and assured them of their safety which was provided too. If the trade union movement took up this initiative in full force imagine the resonance it would get with people? imagine if that resonance was heard today? where the traditional parties (DUP and SF ) are now the ones making cuts, forcing the batons and stirring up sectarianism.



The position of republican socialists is that it is the working class, whether they be catholic, protestant or dissenter, who are the ones who must mobilise to end the occupation and lay the foundations for a socialist republic of Ireland. A United Ireland would be a step in the right direction if socialism did not come with it even, because it would break down many of the institutions that perpetuate working class division via sectarianism, but it is far from an end goal. The end goal is a free Ireland not just politically, but economically and socially aswell, and that means the common ownership of the means of wealth production in the hands of workers.
Like the 26 counties were a step in the right direction ?:rolleyes:
The removal of the 6 counties from British rule does not signal an advancement towards socialism unless it is the mobilised working class who do that. But to do that you need the support of the mass of the working class which when your calling for a 32 capitalist republic means your already cutting off half of them.which makes it virtually impossible to achieve it.


I hope that a movement can be built whereby the working class mobilises toward socialist revolution, and in the process smashes imperialism and capitalism simultaneously, and all this talk of whether a capitalist united Ireland would be more progressive or not is rendered as nothing more than idle theorising, in relation to Ireland at least.
You "hope" what the hell does that mean? why not actually try to build that movement from the start? a united working class movement based on class struggle without blends of nationalism and instead of being a defeatist why not realise that a socialist revolution can occur in the north aswell as the south.

[Soldier of life]

Tell me, how would the north be more progressive under rule from Dublin? You would still have huge sectarianism(more so than now). You would have loss of huge amounts of jobs and would have a nice 6 billion a year hole in the budget. Not to mention the elimination of the NHS and all other benefits that go with living in the north.I'll tell you how it would be more progressive with rule from Dublin. Ireland would not be under imperialist rule. 5,000 imperialist troops would not be in the country. The SRR would not be in the country. A sectarian imperialist police force that were complicit in many sectarian murders would not be in the country. Institutions that ensure the perpetuation and rewarding of sectarianism as have been put in place under the GFA would be gone. Let's take it out of Ireland though, to give a comparison, as I think sometimes when it is on one's doorstep opinions can change.

Let's take chechnya for example. According to some on this site, capitalist states are generally on a par with each other. So in effect, tens of thousands of troops subjugating the native population, combing the area and disappearing anyone who looks at them twice, murdering, torturing and generally doing the things that come along with occupation...that is on the same level as say, if a liberal democracy existed in chechnya? The occupation of Ireland currently is not of the same intensity[extreme examples are often the best], but there are many comparisons and imperialism is always going to ebb and flow in relation to the level of repression that occurs in an occupied nation. So would you say, 'ah sure if Russia left the economy would be even worse off than it is now' and sure all capitalist states are on an equal footing and all have an equal potential for the development of class politics? It actually boggles the mind that people can claim that imperialist occupation is basically the same as any capitalist state, imperialism drags many ills along with it that are unique to imperialism and only further serve to divide working class people.


So your saying that class politics can never take hold until the 32 counties are back? I'm not sure if you are but I'll make the point anyway and if its not the case then this point doesnt stand no worries:
If that is the case sectarian tensions would dramatically increase, I don't think you realise also that a 32 capitalist republic is impossible. Massive unionist opposition(which is far easier mobilised than nationalist oppisition) and backing from Westminster make it impossible.It is far from 'impossible', I wouldn't be so boastful as to allude to the future in such a way, sure even the GFA may at some point bring about a United Ireland. That doesn't mean I think it will happen like that, I don't at all, but I wouldn't say a capitalist United Ireland is 'impossible' either. Not very likely agreed, impossible? No.

And no my point was not that class politics cannot take hold unless in a UI, I merely wish to point out the further difficulties imperialism has brought to Ireland with regard to working class unity, it makes it much more difficult and under current structures the potential for widespread class unity across the sectarian divide in the North is heavily impeded by imperialism. I believe this is indisputable.



How do you think sectarian tensions would suddenly be removed under a 32 country republic? Like I've pointed out their would be a massive increase in sectarian tensions as Unionists would never agree to becoming part of the free state. My goal is not a capitalist United Ireland, my personal position is that the class struggle must be intertwined with the struggle for national liberation and it will take a mobilised working class, involving protestant workers [though it is impossible to predict on what scale], that will free Ireland from the yoke of imperialism and capitalism simultaneously. Yes there will be loyalist/unionist opposition to this, but so what, I don't know of any revolution that didn't encompass a struggle against counter-revolutionaries.


No its far easier to ramble on about "Anti Imperialism etc etc National Liberation!" while mixing and matching your politics with blends of green and red.How is this mixing and matching? I recognise, like Marx, that the nationalism of the oppressed is often much more progressive than the nationalism of an oppressor. It is up to socialists to mould this and ensure it does not develop it's own reactionary tendencies. The struggle against imperialism and for socialism are complementary, not mutually exclusive or paradoxical.



No it doesn't, pursuing the wrong tactics of national liberation and not class liberation make it impossible to reach out to the unionist working class. Without the support of masses of unionist workers no successful revolution can happen.But I am not talking about national liberation on it's own, as a republican socialist I am talking about freeing Ireland politically, socially and economically. I refuse to appease imperialism and reaction, and will refuse to ignore the occupation in an attempt to win over protestant workers on a false pretence that can not hope to last. Connolly called it gas and water socialism, Costello called it ring-road socialism, perhaps today it may be referred to as the economism of the Irish trotskyite parties. I agree that protestant workers should be reached out to, but a prerequisite to that is not abandoning the national question to appease a reactionary and pro-imperialist mindset. Again, opposing occupation is complementary to socialism, not contradictory.



Yes when election time comes the sectarian drums start to bang once again. But were not defeatists, and people and as easily swayed as you may think. With a class alternative in the north it would instantly become a threat to the sectarian politics of the day. We have seen in the past in the north during the troubles class unity across a trade union basis and with an organised left alternative working with trade unions this can spread past the sectarian divide.Under the terms of the GFA, class politics have little political space to breathe. As we both agree, when any gains are made the sectarian drum can be beaten by SF, Unionists or Britain, and we are back to square one. The prospective public assemblies bill is another fine example of a state in the North of our country that is determined to squash an approach based on economism. Any socialist movement that does not challenge the occupation in the North and attempts to make headway in a 'gas and water' fashion is going to be crushed by imperialism and it's organs, and now added into the mix we have two petit bourgeois nationalist parties just as determined to crush such dissent.


For example during the troubles surrounding the bogside local residents in the shankill got organised and brought back catholic residents who had fled their homes, they organised community defense forces and fought against sectarian gangs as weel as in the docks where prodestant and catholic shop stewards made sure catholics could return to work and assured them of their safety which was provided too. If the trade union movement took up this initiative in full force imagine the resonance it would get with people? imagine if that resonance was heard today? where the traditional parties (DUP and SF ) are now the ones making cuts, forcing the batons and stirring up sectarianism.Not sure the point you're making but just two quick comments. Firstly community defense groups just weren't workable in the North long term, when you have B specials and the RUC colluding with loyalist killers any such transparent defense group wouldn't last very long. Nice idea, simple not practical though. And as for the trade union movement, they are fully signed up to the sectarian arrangement that is the GFA and everything that comes from that. A nice example of their utter hypocrisy was when they organised a protest for the 2 soldiers killed at Massereene who were set to jet off to another occupation in Afghanistan. Yet when Kevin McDaid is battered to death by loyalist scumbags where is the demonstration? It doesn't suit their narrative that sectarianism still lives and breathes, they prefer to blame problems on faceless 'lunatics' and 'micro groups' who in fact are progressive in that they challenge imperialism. Another example of how loyalism is all too often appeased.



Like the 26 counties were a step in the right direction ?:rolleyes:
The removal of the 6 counties from British rule does not signal an advancement towards socialism unless it is the mobilised working class who do that. But to do that you need the support of the mass of the working class which when your calling for a 32 capitalist republic means your already cutting off half of them.which makes it virtually impossible to achieve it.I am not calling for a capitalist republic, show me where I said that? What I said was that a capitalist country free from occupation[liberal democracy etc] was more progressive than one subjugated by an imperialist superpower. That is not a call for a capitalist republic, my position has been stated many times on this site, that being that the goal must be to mobilise working people to end the occupation and end capitalism in the same blow. And frankly, I am not going to be lectured on how to appeal to working class unionists by a supporter of CWI. Parading sectarian murderers who are not even sorry for their actions as some sort of progressive representative of working class protestants is in simple terms, an attempt to appease reaction and loyalism. The SP won't even share a platform with left republicans, but had no problem in doing so with a filthy sectarian murderous scumbag. There is reaching out to working class people, and then there is appeasing reaction and sectarianism.



You "hope" what the hell does that mean? why not actually try to build that movement from the start? a united working class movement based on class struggle without blends of nationalism and instead of being a defeatist why not realise that a socialist revolution can occur in the north aswell as the south.Childish brain fart, I'm sorry but this is muck. I am trying to build such a movement, does that mean I cannot 'hope' that this goal is realised:confused: Bizarre.

And as for the 'blends of nationalism', typical Irish leftist tripe really. The IRSP makes no apology for opposing the occupation of Ireland, or any other nation, by an imperialist power. Respecting the right of Palestine to be free from occupation is not nationalism, neither is respecting the right of Iraq or Afghanistan to conduct their affairs without the malign influence of American imperialism 'nationalism'. The demand for a people to be able to conduct their own affairs free from imperialism is complementary to a socialist analysis. Maybe croppies, Palestinians, Iraqi's etc should all lie down and succumb to imperialist occupation, they wouldn't want the left to call them simply nationalists.

[Andropov]

Its the same with anyone who supports the irish republicans, u charge on about how its a liberation struggle but what about what the unionists want, surely as they live there (whether them being there is right or wrong, it doesn't matter, their there and have as much right to a voice as anyone) they have a right to decide what happens as well. Do you know what will happen if the irish republicans take over northern Ireland? the unionist paramilitaries will take the place of the republicans and the bloodshed will continue.
If your going to actually debate in this thread, deal with all the points I raised in relation to your post instead of posting inane drivel like this.

[empiredestoryer]

the orange order are nazis pure and simply