74 Ugandans killed in bombings.

[Os Cangaceiros]

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2010/07/2010711212520826984.html

[bcbm]

titled is a bit misleading, they weren't all ugandan

[Adi Shankara]

I don't know why anyone is surprised. Somalia has no law and no order, and the far-right muslims are just their version of the White Nationalist Skinheads in Russia or Poland. basically, they lash out at innocent victims because they feel they have no opportunities and such.

I strongly am saddened about this, but I'm not surprised.

[Andropov]

I don't know why anyone is surprised. Somalia has no law and no order, and the far-right muslims are just their version of the White Nationalist Skinheads in Russia or Poland. basically, they lash out at innocent victims because they feel they have no opportunities and such.

I strongly am saddened about this, but I'm not surprised.
I was under the impression, and now im open to correction, that it was the Islamic fundamentalists that tried to stabilise Mogadishu and bring some semblence of a functioning society instead of the incesent warring between the respective War Lords.

[Starport]

I was under the impression, and now im open to correction, that it was the Islamic fundamentalists that tried to stabilise Mogadishu and bring some semblence of a functioning society instead of the incesent warring between the respective War Lords.

Correct, and the imperialists charged in with guns, jets and mercenaries to keep it a hell-hole. Now come the crocodile tears for the dead and injured. Imperialism is to blame, and that's before all the pompous, moralising posters on here start 'condemning' the predicable brutalised reaction.

[danyboy27]

Correct, and the imperialists charged in with guns, jets and mercenaries to keep it a hell-hole. Now come the crocodile tears for the dead and injured. Imperialism is to blame, and that's before all the pompous, moralising posters on here start 'condemning' the predicable brutalised reaction.

so, you dont condemn the incident??

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Mike Hammer, spokesman for the National Security Council, said in a statement that the US was "ready to provide any assistance requested by the Ugandan government".


So The "war on terror" that Obama inherited will be expanded to Somalia?

The American-backed African Union troops in Somalia seems like an indication of imperialism to me. it just shows how ridiculous capitalism is that they can spend money on this occupation when they're already in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan and in a "recession."

w7REyKm4Ro4

Unfortunately, I think the US military and politicians get away with this kind of rhetoric because the US has built up a popular image of Africa where all there is, is starving children and massacres. This dehumanization has paved the way for US neocolonialism in Africa.

[Starport]

so, you dont condemn the incident??

The "incident" is only an "incident" if you choose to ignore all the other "incidents", which, put together form a pattern of warfare conducted from the poorest regions where the desperate and brutalised victims of imperialism turn to inadequate obscurantist leadership because the world revisionist communist and other 'left' movements have abandoned the world revolutionary struggle in favour of peaceful coexistence with imperialism.

First expose imperialism and then build a revolutionary communist leadership for all workers everywhere if you want to be of any use to the world (which I doubt).

But otherwise you go right ahead and start a 'condemning' fest, if you want. It will do you no good, or any and all of imperialisms victims (bombed and bombers) but it will encourage imperialism to keep doing what it dose.

Just so you remember what I actually said, rather than what you'r 'CONDEMN' party lyingly pretend.

[danyboy27]

The "incident" is only an "incident" if you choose to ignore all the other "incidents", which, put together form a pattern of warfare conducted from the poorest regions where the desperate and brutalised victims of imperialism turn to inadequate obscurantist leadership because the world revisionist communist and other 'left' movements have abandoned the world revolutionary struggle in favour of peaceful coexistence with imperialism.

First expose imperialism and then build a revolutionary communist leadership for all workers everywhere if you want to be of any use to the world (which I doubt).

But otherwise you go right ahead and start a 'condemning' fest, if you want. It will do you no good, or any and all of imperialisms victims (bombed and bombers) but it will encourage imperialism to keep doing what it dose.
can you be more clear, a simple yes or no would do the job.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I was under the impression, and now im open to correction, that it was the Islamic fundamentalists that tried to stabilise Mogadishu and bring some semblence of a functioning society instead of the incesent warring between the respective War Lords.

I thought that this (http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/09/somalia/draper-text/1) was a good article about the situation in Somalia (including Al Shabaab, the group that took responsibility for the bombings), if you're interested. It came out about a year ago.

[Adi Shankara]

Truth is, your average Somali isn't a war-hungry religious bigot who's for extremism and what not; no, most Somalis just want to feed their families and give their children (including, yes, the women) an education.

This propaganda with fabricated movies like "Black Hawk Down" only serve to justify US interests in the horn of Africa; if you want the public on your side, you have to demonize your enemy first, of which the USA is pro at doing without appearing to do so.

the cause of instability in Somalia is the result of Westerners attempting to prop up illegitimate governments in Somalia, and the reaction there to it. Why else would we send helicopters and troops there? because it was "doing the right thing"? :laugh:

If the USA sends military aid to any nation, you can almost be certain that there is a non-humanitarian reason behind it, hidden, but close to the surface.

[Adi Shankara]

can you be more clear, a simple yes or no would do the job.

I'm under the impression that Starport is pleased to see Ugandans killed, because it would further aid as a "serves you right" to the Western world. kind've barbaric, really.

and no, the fundamentalists have NOT brought peace to Mogadishu. Mogadishu is still a violent hell hole. the Socialists brought peace before, it was the warring factions of different brands of extremism that brought Somalia's downfall after the Siyaad Barre government.

[Starport]

can you be more clear, a simple yes or no would do the job.

An absolute emphatic no! Are you mad? Join reactionary imperialist culture and sentiment to whip-up more warmongering? What do you think I'd want to do that for?

[bcbm]

its reactionary to think that blowing people watching the world cup up is fucked up?

[Adi Shankara]

An absolute emphatic no! Are you mad? Join reactionary imperialist culture and sentiment to whip-up more warmongering? What do you think I'd want to do that for?

I don't think anyone is calling for more "warmongering". one can be opposed to extremism and not want to see military action committed against innocent people.

Seriously, you just don't condemn the killing of innocent Ugandans who are just as impoverished as the rest of Somalia if not more. go fuck yourself you psychopathic bastard. people like you should be turned into chum and fed to fish. at least then, your body would be put to use besides taking up precious air and resources.

fucking gov'no svinya. I really am disgusted someone could hold such an opinion that they don't condemn the death of innocent people. Even if you're trolling...it's still disgusting.

[danyboy27]

An absolute emphatic no! Are you mad? Join reactionary imperialist culture and sentiment to whip-up more warmongering? What do you think I'd want to do that for?

i didnt know killing innocent impovrished people who have no control on their corrupted governement was a revolutionary action, thanks for the head up.

stop trolling.

[Starport]

First expose imperialism and then build a revolutionary communist leadership for all workers everywhere if you want to be of any use to the world (which I doubt).

But otherwise you go right ahead and start a 'condemning' fest, if you want. It will do you no good, or any and all of imperialisms victims (bombed and bombers) but it will encourage imperialism to keep doing what it dose.


Now you've got your reactionary 'condemning' party buddies together you can fall in in behind the might of the imperialist military, criticising it in words but joining it in practice by never celebrating its setbacks or arguing for its defeat.

But you and your liberal mates never miss an opportunity to tell lies, and repeat them, about anyone who exposes and argues for the revolutionary destruction of imperialism by the working class. Your 'socialist' disguise can be seen straight through. Party on chaps! Left, right, left, right,.......

[Robocommie]

Now you've got your reactionary 'condemning' party buddies together you can fall in in behind the might of the imperialist military, criticising it in words but joining it in practice by never celebrating its setbacks or arguing for its defeat.

But you and your liberal mates never miss an opportunity to tell lies, and repeat them, about anyone who exposes and argues for the revolutionary destruction of imperialism by the working class. Your 'socialist' disguise can be seen straight through. Party on chaps! Left, right, left, right,.......

You're an obnoxious idiot. This doesn't help Somalia or the Islamic Courts Union.

[Starport]

You're an obnoxious idiot. This doesn't help Somalia or the Islamic Courts Union.

What do you claim I've done now?

[Starport]

Explain what all your 'condemnations' are useful for?

[Robocommie]

What do you claim I've done now?

You're acting like an obnoxious idiot, that's what. 74 people died here, people who were almost certainly in no way connected to the US and Ethiopian government decision to put down the Islamic Courts in favor of the nominal Somali federal government, and you're acting like a spastic twit, saying that condemning the murder of some six dozen human beings is an act in support of imperialism.

You're not being principled against imperialism, you may think you are, but all you're really doing is being as obnoxious as you can while trying to raise your flag as high as you can.

[Starport]

You're acting like an obnoxious idiot, that's what. 74 people died here, people who were almost certainly in no way connected to the US and Ethiopian government decision to put down the Islamic Courts in favor of the nominal Somali federal government, and you're acting like a spastic twit, saying that condemning the murder of some six dozen human beings is an act in support of imperialism.

You're not being principled against imperialism, you may think you are, but all you're really doing is being as obnoxious as you can while trying to raise your flag as high as you can.

So now Explain what all your 'condemnations' are useful for? Telling us what a nice person you are?

[Robocommie]

So now Explain what all your 'condemnations' are useful for? Telling us what a nice person you are?

You're a buffoon.

You don't need a doctrinal justification to be horrified by the deaths of 74 civilians.

[McCroskey]

So now Explain what all your 'condemnations' are useful for? Telling us what a nice person you are?

So now explain what your blood thirst and your indifference to human suffering is useful for? Telling us about your stupid "not-on-my-backyard" anti-imperialist ego?

Do you really cheer at the deaths of innocent people just because it´s the reaction to an imperialist attack? You´ll probably support a nuclear bombing in New York.

[bcbm]

So now Explain what all your 'condemnations' are useful for?

i would say they are about as useful as your "anti-imperialism," though perhaps slightly better because they indicate the presence of compassion and humanity.

[Adi Shankara]

Starport, if you're not a troll, then you're truly an evil person who deserves to be castigated severely for your hatred against the poor innocents of Uganda.

fucking fascist. Stop hiding your contempt for impoverished Africans under the guise of some leftist agenda.

[AK]

Starport, you do realise that it is in fact possible to oppose all factions? This isn't a you're-either-with-us-or-with-them scenario - nothing ever really is. We support the international working class. If we all used your logic (or lack, thereof), we would cheer at reactionary Taliban insurgents blowing up US Army Humvees.

Take your strawmen and your particularly flawed brand of anti-imperialism out of this thread.

[Wanted Man]

Seriously, you just don't condemn the killing of innocent Ugandans who are just as impoverished as the rest of Somalia if not more. go fuck yourself you psychopathic bastard. people like you should be turned into chum and fed to fish. at least then, your body would be put to use besides taking up precious air and resources.

:lol:

What's a "gov'no svinya" anyway?

[Adi Shankara]

:lol:

What's a "gov'no svinya" anyway?

lol, it means "shitpig" in Russian. lol whenever I get angry, I swear alot in my native tongue :p

[Slavoj Zizzle]

Actually Starport is right. "Condemning" this incident without exposing the roots of it is worthless and reactionary. It's like condemning Hamas for the death of an Israeli, sure all death is sad in an abstract manner, but there are more than enough liberals who condemn all violence while sitting on their asses paying for the continued mass violence of the West. As bad as it is, the Islamic fundies are the closest Somalia has gotten and can get for a while to a functioning state, and the blame for that lies squarely with the west. Let's "condemn" the prisoners in Cuba, the Americans who died in Iraq and Afghanistan, and any other deaths you think are sad.

[danyboy27]

Actually Starport is right. "Condemning" this incident without exposing the roots of it is worthless and reactionary. It's like condemning Hamas for the death of an Israeli, sure all death is sad in an abstract manner, but there are more than enough liberals who condemn all violence while sitting on their asses paying for the continued mass violence of the West. As bad as it is, the Islamic fundies are the closest Somalia has gotten and can get for a while to a functioning state, and the blame for that lies squarely with the west. Let's "condemn" the prisoners in Cuba, the Americans who died in Iraq and Afghanistan, and any other deaths you think are sad.
there is a big difference between attacking israeli military personnal and deliberately blowing up impovrished civilians.

i dont feel the need to expose the cause of al this beccause its just so fucking obvious that this shitstorm is the result of the cold war clusterfuck of the 60s and 80s, with russia and us switching side constantly during various african conflicts.

we dont deny imperialism fucked up africa really bad, we do aknowledge that.

but the thing is, those civilian are not some kind of collateral damage, they where the victim of a deliberate civilian slaughter, those folks didnt support any imperialism, they where just watching football when some reactionary nuts decided to kill them in retaliation of thing their governement without their consent or approval.

[Starport]

Oh well if you ‘Marxists’ are so upset about what I say, read what Karl Marx had to say about the Sepoys uprising in India.

London, Sept. 4, 1857.
“The outrages committed by the revolted Sepoys in India are indeed appalling, hideous, ineffable — such as one is prepared to meet – only in wars of insurrection, of nationalities, of races, and above all of religion; in one word, such as respectable England used to applaud when perpetrated by the Vendeans on the “Blues,” by the Spanish guerrillas on the infidel Frenchmen, by Servians on their German and Hungarian neighbors, by Croats on Viennese rebels, by Cavaignac’s Garde Mobile or Bonaparte’s Decembrists on the sons and daughters of proletarian France.”...
... “John Bull is to be steeped in cries for revenge (or condemnation: Ed) up to his very ears, to make him forget that his Government is responsible for the mischief hatched and the colossal dimensions it has been allowed to assume.” Bold Added ED:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1857/09/16.htm

My bet is you won't understand it.

[Slavoj Zizzle]

there is a big difference between attacking israeli military personnal and deliberately blowing up impovrished civilians.

i dont feel the need to expose the cause of al this beccause its just so fucking obvious that this shitstorm is the result of the cold war clusterfuck of the 60s and 80s, with russia and us switching side constantly during various african conflicts.

we dont deny imperialism fucked up africa really bad, we do aknowledge that.

but the thing is, those civilian are not some kind of collateral damage, they where the victim of a deliberate civilian slaughter, those folks didnt support any imperialism, they where just watching football when some reactionary nuts decided to kill them in retaliation of thing their governement without their consent or approval.

It may be obvious to you but the large majority of westerners think Muslims are the savage "other" and have no understanding of the history of Somalia or the current reality. "Condemnation" is easy to do, as leftists our job is to condemn the west for creating the situation, exacerbating it to this day, and then using the fundamental Islam it created as justification for further imperial oppression. There is a direct correlation between fundamentalism and imperialist aggression in Africa and the Middle east, and as leftists our goal should be to solve the problems of the world by attacking the root. Condemning the impoverished reactionary masses doesn't do anything or enlighten the solution, and is sort of a childish "LOOK AT THE SAVAGES" distraction.

[Starport]

I'm under the impression that Starport is pleased to see Ugandans killed, because it would further aid as a "serves you right" to the Western world. kind've barbaric, really.

Pure fantasy as usual.

[Starport]

its reactionary to think that blowing people watching the world cup up is fucked up?

What dose this mean?

[Starport]

I don't think anyone is calling for more "warmongering". one can be opposed to extremism and not want to see military action committed against innocent people.

Seriously, you just don't condemn the killing of innocent Ugandans who are just as impoverished as the rest of Somalia if not more. go fuck yourself you psychopathic bastard. people like you should be turned into chum and fed to fish. at least then, your body would be put to use besides taking up precious air and resources.

More politically incoherent rubbish.

fucking gov'no svinya. I really am disgusted someone could hold such an opinion that they don't condemn the death of innocent people. Even if you're trolling...it's still disgusting. What opinion is that exactly? What has your 'condemnation' done for anyone?

You are like the the man in the scriptures praying out loud at the front of the synagogue, so he can appear pious in front of his neighbours.

[Starport]

i didnt know killing innocent impovrished people who have no control on their corrupted governement was a revolutionary action, thanks for the head up.

stop trolling.


No you don't know much, but the people who did it think it is a revolutionary action and regrettably there is not enough respected communist influence locally to prevent them.

[Starport]

You're an obnoxious idiot."Its not useful to insult people when you are correcting them." I'm paraphrasing you as you know.


This doesn't help Somalia or the Islamic Courts Union.

I didn't say it dose, did I?

[Robocommie]

"Its not useful to insult people when you are correcting them." I'm paraphrasing you as you know.

Alright Starport, fair cop. I apologize for calling you an idiot. I think you're not being as eloquent as you could be in arguing your point and you're doing yourself a disservice.

[Starport]

You're acting like an obnoxious idiot, that's what. 74 people died here, people who were almost certainly in no way connected to the US and Ethiopian government decision to put down the Islamic Courts in favor of the nominal Somali federal government, and you're acting like a spastic twit, saying that condemning the murder of some six dozen human beings is an act in support of imperialism.
It is when you say not one word of imperialist responsibility for the slaughter.



I

[khad]

Starport is absolutely right on this one, though, he maybe should have demonstrated more tact in stating his opinions. While one cannot but express tragedy at what has happened in Uganda, one must consider the broader context of this debate.

Spare me the liberal finger wagging at "terrorism," as if that maudlin tripe is going to actually accomplish anything. The facts are this. Uganda is participating in an imperialist invasion of Somalia that continues to kill Somali civilians. This angst over the world cup angle, which is in fact completely blown out of proportion by the liberal media, rings hollow and hypocritical when the Ugandan army kills kids by shelling playgrounds. Of all the foreign troops in Somalia, Ugandans make up the largest proportion.

Al-Shabaab has warned repeatedly that it would retaliate for the attacks on its communities, yet the Ugandan government kept pushing. It's a safe bet to say that they knew exactly what they were getting into. They were the ones consciously putting their people at risk for a criminal imperialist war which continues to kill Somali civilians.

Logically, in a situation like this, it is incumbent on the side which holds the preponderance of force to show restraint. Insurgents are going to respond asymmetrically because they don't have many other options. This is what happens when you push someone to the edge of a cliff.

[Starport]

You're a buffoon.

You don't need a doctrinal justification to be horrified by the deaths of 74 civilians.

Well you just stay "horrified" and useless to the revolution because there is much more horror to come.

[Starport]

So now explain what your blood thirst and your indifference to human suffering is useful for? Telling us about your stupid "not-on-my-backyard" anti-imperialist ego?

Do you really cheer at the deaths of innocent people just because it´s the reaction to an imperialist attack? You´ll probably support a nuclear bombing in New York.

Probably

[Robocommie]

Well you just stay "horrified" and useless to the revolution because there is much more horror to come.

Okay, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You're being childish. You should be more like Khad, because he's both right and not acting like a tool. And yes, I mean tool.

[Starport]

i would say they are about as useful as your "anti-imperialism," though perhaps slightly better because they indicate the presence of compassion and humanity.

But without the anti-imperialism.

[Starport]

Starport, if you're not a troll, then you're truly an evil person who deserves to be castigated severely for your hatred against the poor innocents of Uganda.

fucking fascist. Stop hiding your contempt for impoverished Africans under the guise of some leftist agenda.

More fantasy.

[Starport]

Starport, you do realise that it is in fact possible to oppose all factions? This isn't a you're-either-with-us-or-with-them scenario - nothing ever really is. We support the international working class. If we all used your logic (or lack, thereof), we would cheer at reactionary Taliban insurgents blowing up US Army Humvees.

Take your strawmen and your particularly flawed brand of anti-imperialism out of this thread.

Communists don’t need to ‘support’ anything, except their communist perspectives and program programs and parties etc,.

[Starport]

lol, it means "shitpig" in Russian. lol whenever I get angry, I swear alot in my native tongue :p

Oh, I wouldn't like you when your angry.

[khad]

General verbal warning to this thread. Keep on topic and cut out the trolling.

When a thread starts descending into one-liner cheap shots, it's usually a bad sign.

[khad]

Better get some communist revolutions going instead of being a passive bystander then, hadn't you?
This is a verbal warning to you to cut this shit out.

[danyboy27]

i fail to see how i am pro imperialist if i condemn the attack, i also condemn what the ugandan governement do to somali peoples.

i condemn ugandan imperialism, but i fail to see how blowing up so many civilian on purpose is gonna achieve something really meaningful.

those people where not decider, they didnt hold any real power on their own governement, they where not rich bourgeois or military personnal, just a bunch of poor folks who didnt do no arm to nobody.

war is horrible, i know, civilian casuality have to be expected, war know no moderation but the one of the extreme.

But deliberately targetting civilians is not war, its slaughter.

[Dimentio]

I was under the impression, and now im open to correction, that it was the Islamic fundamentalists that tried to stabilise Mogadishu and bring some semblence of a functioning society instead of the incesent warring between the respective War Lords.

It is hard to tell, but the islamists who carried out the attacks in Uganda were not the same islamists who briefly took over all of south-central Somalia in 2006. Those 2006-islamists were the ICU, who were against a faction of warlords supported by Ethiopia and USA. They advanced until Ethiopia attacked and occupied most of the country.

The ICU reached peace with the other factions in Somalia and even got control over the presidency. They are in the pro-government faction now.

Al-Shabaab is an al-Qaeda-affiliated organisation which wants to install extreme islamic laws and try to burn all other books than the Quran. They are basically crazy.

In a few years time, al-Shabaab maybe is in the pro-government faction though, which is fighting to survive against a new generation of islamists with an even more bizarre interpretation of the words of the prophet (pbuh).

[Adi Shankara]

Starport is absolutely right on this one, though, he maybe should have demonstrated more tact in stating his opinions. While one cannot but express tragedy at what has happened in Uganda, one must consider the broader context of this debate.

Spare me the liberal finger wagging at "terrorism," as if that maudlin tripe is going to actually accomplish anything. The facts are this. Uganda is participating in an imperialist invasion of Somalia that continues to kill Somali civilians. This angst over the world cup angle, which is in fact completely blown out of proportion by the liberal media, rings hollow and hypocritical when the Ugandan army kills kids by shelling playgrounds. Of all the foreign troops in Somalia, Ugandans make up the largest proportion.

Al-Shabaab has warned repeatedly that it would retaliate for the attacks on its communities, yet the Ugandan government kept pushing. It's a safe bet to say that they knew exactly what they were getting into. They were the ones consciously putting their people at risk for a criminal imperialist war which continues to kill Somali civilians.

Logically, in a situation like this, it is incumbent on the side which holds the preponderance of force to show restraint. Insurgents are going to respond asymmetrically because they don't have many other options. This is what happens when you push someone to the edge of a cliff.

I agree with your point completely, but that's not why people were attacking Starport; people were attacking him/her because he/she said that we should show no remorse for the Ugandans who died, and that we shouldn't regard it as tragic.

[Dimentio]

I think it is high time for the international community to recognise Somaliland as an independent state. As for Somalia, it is more or less not going to be better with international presence. International presence is often like beating up an epileptic person underneath a car wreck. It could sound grim and compassionless to suggest an end to international missions, but they tend to make civil wars permanent and hamper development of peace (the usual result of a civil war is that the victor vanquishes the defeated and then establish a dictatorship which might restore stability, imagine what would have happened if UN relief forces had been placed in Rwanda in 1994 prior to the rebel victory. That would basically have caused the entire civil war to be "frozen" and lead to a perpetual division of Rwanda).

[Adi Shankara]

I think it is high time for the international community to recognise Somaliland as an independent state

Agree 101%. I cannot think of a legitimate state ignored by the rest of the world which has done more to provide stability and peace to it's people than Somaliland.

[Starport]

i fail to see how i am pro imperialist if i condemn the attack, i also condemn what the ugandan governement do to somali peoples.

i condemn ugandan imperialism, but i fail to see how blowing up so many civilian on purpose is gonna achieve something really meaningful.

those people where not decider, they didnt hold any real power on their own governement, they where not rich bourgeois or military personnal, just a bunch of poor folks who didnt do no arm to nobody.

war is horrible, i know, civilian casuality have to be expected, war know no moderation but the one of the extreme.

But deliberately targetting civilians is not war, its slaughter.

It is, and your 'condemnations' or prayers will not do anything to prevent more of it. It will encourage the imperialists to keep going in the belief that they have you on their side and they can show you off as a supporter.
A CONDEM!

[danyboy27]

It is, and your 'condemnations' or prayers will not do anything to prevent more of it. It will encourage the imperialists to keep going in the belief that they have you on their side and they can show you off as a supporter.
A CONDEM!
you are insane.

[Starport]

you are insane.

Chair, can I answer this?

[danyboy27]

Chair, can I answer this?

look, what you just said was completly stupid, imperialism governement dosnt care about my opinion, neither they actually care about yours.

there is a difference between condemning an act of useless violence and giving full support to imperialist.

only a complete idiot wouldnt understand that.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

This propaganda with fabricated movies like "Black Hawk Down" only serve to justify US interests in the horn of Africa; if you want the public on your side, you have to demonize your enemy first, of which the USA is pro at doing without appearing to do so.
Well Saul Alinsky said the same thing about what any progressive movement should do in "Rules For Radicals"
(just playing devil's advocate though.


the cause of instability in Somalia is the result of Westerners attempting to prop up illegitimate governments in Somalia, and the reaction there to it. Why else would we send helicopters and troops there? because it was "doing the right thing"? :laugh:
As if there is such a thing as a "legitimate government"? :rolleyes:


If the USA sends military aid to any nation, you can almost be certain that there is a non-humanitarian reason behind it, hidden, but close to the surface.
Well thank you captain obvious...
... But usually it's not hidden...

[Adi Shankara]

As if there is such a thing as a "legitimate government"? :rolleyes:

an Anarchist's point of contention. many marxists see legitimate use for government, when it is composed entirely of proletariat, I am one of them. laws need to be had. rules need to be enforced. but only righteous rules.




Well thank you captain obvious...

You'd be surprised what people believe. some people even on this forum actually think that we went to Iraq under false pretenses, but not to Afghanistan for the same reason.

it's alot less public knowledge than you think.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Actually Starport is right. "Condemning" this incident without exposing the roots of it is worthless and reactionary. It's like condemning Hamas for the death of an Israeli, sure all death is sad in an abstract manner, but there are more than enough liberals who condemn all violence while sitting on their asses paying for the continued mass violence of the West. As bad as it is, the Islamic fundies are the closest Somalia has gotten and can get for a while to a functioning state, and the blame for that lies squarely with the west. Let's "condemn" the prisoners in Cuba, the Americans who died in Iraq and Afghanistan, and any other deaths you think are sad.

I condemn the action and my condemnation of imperialism is seperate. When some asshole goes killing people on the basis of rightwing religious fundementalist "anti-imperialism" they are no better than the imperialists who blow up buildings halfway around the world.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

an Anarchist's point of contention. many marxists see legitimate use for government, when it is composed entirely of proletariat, I am one of them. laws need to be had. rules need to be enforced. but only righteous rules.
So who decides what these "righteous rules" are? Another homophobic/transphobic/sexist bigot like Mao, Stalin or Fidel? Or how about a nationalist wingnut like Hoxha? Wait until my gender identity and my political dissent gets me sent to the gulags. I won't go with out a fight. Come on, it'll be just like '36.:rolleyes:




You'd be surprised what people believe. some people even on this forum actually think that we went to Iraq under false pretenses, but not to Afghanistan for the same reason.

it's alot less public knowledge than you think.
Are you serious??? I figured it was commonly known because they don't usually make an effort to hide it. They practically come out and say "yeah, we are in it for profits, now also here's some bad things they did..."

[Adi Shankara]

So who decides what these "righteous rules" are? Another homophobic/transphobic/sexist bigot like Mao, Stalin or Fidel? Or how about a nationalist wingnut like Hoxha? Wait until my gender identity and my political dissent gets me sent to the gulags. I won't go with out a fight. Come on, it'll be just like '36.:rolleyes:

I see nothing wrong with Fidel Castro, and I don't think he opposes transexuality. in fact, I think his government pays for it for transexuals to get ops?

and I agree with you. Mao is better dead, and my opinion Stalin is mixed (he did alot for my mother country as far as protection from the Nazis goes, but he did alot of bad shit to my own people as well)

as far as how they're decided...one term, 3 years, no benefits beyond what everyone else gets, and the same status that every other job gets--there should be no perks for politics. Thomas Sankara didn't believe in perks and he lived in a building without air conditioning, and he was the president of Burkina Faso. I don't see why the rest can't follow his example.




Are you serious??? I figured it was commonly known because they don't usually make an effort to hide it. They practically come out and say "yeah, we are in it for profits, now also here's some bad things they did..."

they were mostly old threads, from 2005 and 2006, but that is no excuse for ignorance.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I see nothing wrong with Fidel Castro, and I don't think he opposes transexuality. in fact, I think his government pays for it for transexuals to get ops?
Raul Castro did that since he took his brother's place. Fidel on the other hand used to throw us 'deviants' into camps.


and I agree with you. Mao is better dead, and my opinion Stalin is mixed (he did alot for my mother country as far as protection from the Nazis goes, but he did alot of bad shit to my own people as well)
Glad to hear you don't like Mao. Stalin was a homophobic pig and no battle against another asshole can go anywhere near excusing that.


as far as how they're decided...one term, 3 years, no benefits beyond what everyone else gets, and the same status that every other job gets--there should be no perks for politics. Thomas Sankara didn't believe in perks and he lived in a building without air conditioning, and he was the president of Burkina Faso. I don't see why the rest can't follow his example. But they still get to decide which gulag to send my transsexual ass to, right?






they were mostly old threads, from 2005 and 2006, but that is no excuse for ignorance.
Good to hear that they are back in the past. :)

[Slavoj Zizzle]

So who decides what these "righteous rules" are? Another homophobic/transphobic/sexist bigot like Mao, Stalin or Fidel? Or how about a nationalist wingnut like Hoxha? Wait until my gender identity and my political dissent gets me sent to the gulags. I won't go with out a fight. Come on, it'll be just like '36.:rolleyes:


:laugh: It's pathetic your entire identity and politics is based on your status as what I assume is a transexual over proletariat unity or real historical minorities who have been systematically oppressed and exterminated. Nobody really cares about your 1st world "minority" status I'm sorry to say, and if your criticism of pretty much every communist power is they were homophobic good luck on your gay fascism I guess. Identity politics and selfish reactionary opposition to revolutions can only lead to fascism or weak liberalism.

[Slavoj Zizzle]

I condemn the action and my condemnation of imperialism is seperate. When some asshole goes killing people on the basis of rightwing religious fundementalist "anti-imperialism" they are no better than the imperialists who blow up buildings halfway around the world.

Actually equating imperialism and national liberation, regardless of how "rightwing" you think it is, is the height of apologism for imperial destruction and reactionary nihilism. Good that you have an opinion on the character Arab resistance to the west should take, but as a 1st world imperialist yourself no one cares and you have no right to tell the Muslim world how they should run their revolution :trotski:

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

:laugh: It's pathetic your entire identity and politics is based on your status as what I assume is a transexual over proletariat unity or real historical minorities who have been systematically oppressed and exterminated. Nobody really cares about your 1st world "minority" status I'm sorry to say, and if your criticism of pretty much every communist power is they were homophobic good luck on your gay fascism I guess. Identity politics and selfish reactionary opposition to revolutions can only lead to fascism or weak liberalism.

I am transsexual and your claims of "gay fascism" are beyond stupid.

(A) Fascism is for dumb authoritarian fucks

B) Fascists in the United States hate Mexicans (and hence hates me for both being Mexican-American and Transsexual). As a matter of fact, here in the united states, the National Socialist Movement wants the US military out of the middle east to "be posted on the border with orders shoot to kill. Yeah, neo nazis in the US have come out in support of your fundementalist bullshit.

c) historically exterminated? oh, you mean like during the spanish inquisition, or during the rule of the third reich, or under Franco in the Spanish Civil war, or Afghanistan under the Taliban where under all those governments (plus many more) LGBTQ people were systematically oppressed and executed.
Do you know where the term "faggot" comes from? Yeah, in the Spanish inquisition when people like myself were burnt at the stake. It originally means kindling (you know as in twigs you use to start a fire)
The pink upside down triangle for gay men and the black one for the rest of us other deviants, sound familiar? Or are you going to try and deny the holocaust during world war 2.
If Federico Gacia Lorca hadn't been one of the casualties, you could ask him about the anti-communist and fascist dictator Franco in Spain and what Franco did to LGBTQ folks then and there.
The Taliban? Need I say more.

D) If I'm not technically "gay", how can you tell me "good luck with your gay fascism" since I'm an MtF transsexual in gender identity (hence if I was homosexual that'd be called lesbian) and I identify as far as sexual orientation as an omnisexual?

Also, my politics is based off really, really liking the writings of Emma Goldman and saying "Ay Dios Mio! I really like what she has to say, what's that idea called? Oh yeah, Anarchism." Next thing you know I'm rocking the "Baby, I'm an Anarchist" and fighting against all forms of government.

I hope the Spirits of Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P. Johnson kick your ass so I can laugh at you.:thumbup1::laugh:

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Actually equating imperialism and national liberation, regardless of how "rightwing" you think it is, is the height of apologism for imperial destruction and reactionary nihilism. Good that you have an opinion on the character Arab resistance to the west should take, but as a 1st world imperialist yourself no one cares and you have no right to tell the Muslim world how they should run their revolution :trotski:

No I'm a fuck-both-sides-ist :rolleyes:

But to be serious, all government is the same no matter what "kind" it is; it's just power and someone who doesn't deserve it will get the shaft or be burnt at the stake. It's that power which will always be bought out by the same people even after your revolution. Just look at what's happened to every revolution that resulted in a power structure. Also, I can't be an imperialist if I don't believe in a government let alone an imperialist military of a government. So kiss my ass and maybe I'll see you at the barricades you authoritarian pig.

[Slavoj Zizzle]

I am transsexual and your claims of "gay fascism" are beyond stupid.

(A) Fascism is for dumb authoritarian fucks

B) Fascists in the United States hate Mexicans (and hence hates me for both being Mexican-American and Transsexual). As a matter of fact, here in the united states, the National Socialist Movement wants the US military out of the middle east to "be posted on the border with orders shoot to kill. Yeah, neo nazis in the US have come out in support of your fundementalist bullshit.

c) historically exterminated? oh, you mean like during the spanish inquisition, or during the rule of the third reich, or under Franco in the Spanish Civil war, or Afghanistan under the Taliban where under all those governments (plus many more) LGBTQ people were systematically oppressed and executed.
Do you know where the term "faggot" comes from? Yeah, in the Spanish inquisition when people like myself were burnt at the stake. It originally means kindling (you know as in twigs you use to start a fire)
The pink upside down triangle for gay men and the black one for the rest of us other deviants, sound familiar? Or are you going to try and deny the holocaust during world war 2.
If Federico Gacia Lorca hadn't been one of the casualties, you could ask him about the anti-communist and fascist dictator Franco in Spain and what Franco did to LGBTQ folks then and there.
The Taliban? Need I say more.

D) If I'm not technically "gay", how can you tell me "good luck with your gay fascism" since I'm an MtF transsexual in gender identity (hence if I was homosexual that'd be called lesbian) and I identify as far as sexual orientation as an omnisexual?

Also, my politics is based off really, really liking the writings of Emma Goldman and saying "Ay Dios Mio! I really like what she has to say, what's that idea called? Oh yeah, Anarchism." Next thing you know I'm rocking the "Baby, I'm an Anarchist" and fighting against all forms of government.

I hope the Spirits of Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P. Johnson kick your ass so I can laugh at you.:thumbup1::laugh:

I know gay rights is the latest human right liberals love to rally behind, but it's largely a distraction issue and irrelevant to the larger struggle for human rights. As much as gays have been discriminated against in the past, as you already pointed out, there is no systematic or economic discrimination against them, and as Marx rightly put it so long ago, "the history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles." Gays in fact are largely bourgeoisie compared to the general population, and have higher education and better jobs. To compare them to the oppressed masses and third world people of color is an insult to real minorities.

In fact, as a MTF transexual you are extra privileged because you were born and raised with all the economic and social privileges of men. I'm glad you're not a fascist, but to not see the contemporary link between homosexual reactionary attitudes towards Islam and neo-fascism in the Netherlands, France, Austria, etc is simply wrong.

Now, I'm not implying being gay leads to fascism. However privileging a minority status, which by any economic analysis is revealed to be a false category, will most likely lead to at best an inaccurate perspective and a reactionary attitude towards real revolutionaries, such as Mao, Stalin, and Castro as you've already mentioned.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Oh well if you ‘Marxists’ are so upset about what I say, read what Karl Marx had to say about the Sepoys uprising in India.

London, Sept. 4, 1857.
“The outrages committed by the revolted Sepoys in India are indeed appalling, hideous, ineffable — such as one is prepared to meet – only in wars of insurrection, of nationalities, of races, and above all of religion; in one word, such as respectable England used to applaud when perpetrated by the Vendeans on the “Blues,” by the Spanish guerrillas on the infidel Frenchmen, by Servians on their German and Hungarian neighbors, by Croats on Viennese rebels, by Cavaignac’s Garde Mobile or Bonaparte’s Decembrists on the sons and daughters of proletarian France.”...
... “John Bull is to be steeped in cries for revenge (or condemnation: Ed) up to his very ears, to make him forget that his Government is responsible for the mischief hatched and the colossal dimensions it has been allowed to assume.” Bold Added ED:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1857/09/16.htm

My bet is you won't understand it.

Karl Marx also compared religion to opiates.:rolleyes:
Take it from someone who knows opiates may feel nice at first but they eventually end up fucking you over and withdrawls suck.

[khad]

Do you know where the term "faggot" comes from? Yeah, in the Spanish inquisition when people like myself were burnt at the stake. It originally means kindling (you know as in twigs you use to start a fire)Faggot comes from fagot, meaning a bundle of rods or a heavy weight. You've obviously heard the term, "my ball and chain," right? "Fagot" had a similar meaning once and was used by husbands to refer to their wives. It later became applied to men who appeared to be feminized and lacking in heteronormative masculinity.

It's really the equivalent of calling a guy a "*****."

Ok, found a more thorough explanation, so let's keep this thread free of hysterics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_%28slang%29#Etymology


The word meaning "bundle of sticks" is ultimately derived, via Old French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_French) and Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language), from Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) fascis (also the origin of the word fascism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism)).[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_%28slang%29#cite_note-etymonline-7) The origins of the word as an offensive epithet for homosexuals are, however, rather obscure, although the word has been used in English since the late 16th century to mean "old or unpleasant woman," and the modern use may derive from this.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_%28slang%29#cite_note-8) Female terms, it should be noted, are often used with reference to homosexual or effeminate men (cf. nancy, sissy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sissy#Pejorative), queen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_%28gay_slang%29)). The application of the term to old women is possibly a shortening of the term "faggot-gatherer", applied in the 19th century to people, especially older widows, who made a meagre living by gathering and selling firewood.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_%28slang%29#cite_note-9) It may also derive from the sense of "something awkward to be carried" (compare the use of the word "baggage" as a pejorative term for old people in general).[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_%28slang%29#cite_note-etymonline-7)
It is sometimes claimed that the modern slang meaning developed from the standard meaning of "faggot" as "bundle of sticks for burning," presumably with reference to burning at the stake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_by_burning).[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_%28slang%29#cite_note-etymonline-7) This is, however, unlikely to be the case,[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_%28slang%29#cite_note-etymonline-7) and there is no tradition of burning at the stake being used as a punishment for homosexuality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality) in Britain,[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_%28slang%29#cite_note-autogenerated1-10)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_%28slang%29#cite_note-11) although supposed witches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchcraft) and heretics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy) were burnt to death in other parts of Europe, and were often accused of deviant sexual behaviour.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_%28slang%29#cite_note-12)

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I know gay rights is the latest human right liberals love to rally behind, but it's largely a distraction issue and irrelevant to the larger struggle for human rights. As much as gays have been discriminated against in the past, as you already pointed out, there is no systematic or economic discrimination against them, and as Marx rightly put it so long ago, "the history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles." Gays in fact are largely bourgeoisie compared to the general population, and have higher education and better jobs. To compare them to the oppressed masses and third world people of color is an insult to real minorities.
Are you really too fucking dumb to see that there is a difference between gay and trans.



In fact, as a MTF transexual you are extra privileged because you were born and raised with all the economic and social privileges of men.
Except you have no fucking clue what it is like to look into a mirror and see a body that is so alien to you that you spend the first two decades of your life wanting to die. To have society telling you that you are one thing when you are the opposite. To be perpetually attacked just for walking down the street. No, I wasn't raised with privilege. Infact, I am more privileged now that I am passable enough to not have to worry as much about getting murdered for being trans. Yeah, you should be kicked off revleft for saying that being MtF means male privilege.


I'm glad you're not a fascist, but to not see the contemporary link between homosexual reactionary attitudes towards Islam and neo-fascism in the Netherlands, France, Austria, etc is simply wrong.

Again, I'm not homosexual, I'm (other deviant) because I was born into a male body but I identify as a woman. And no, I don't have anti-islam tendencies any more than anti-christianity or anti-judaism tendencies. I'm pretty anti-organized religion all around. It's not which stripe of religion, it's that it's religion. I also have no problem with individuals of any religion just religion. I do however, have a problem with any fudementalist of any religion.

It's like telling someone who hates all humans that they are anti-blonde hair because they hate people with blonde hair when it's not the blonde hair it's the fact that they are human.


Now, I'm not implying being gay leads to fascism. However privileging a minority status, which by any economic analysis is revealed to be a false category, will most likely lead to at best an inaccurate perspective and a reactionary attitude towards real revolutionaries, such as Mao, Stalin, and Castro as you've already mentioned.
The Stonewall uprising was actually quite revolutionary. Molotovs and all.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Faggot comes from fagot, meaning a bundle of rods or a heavy weight. You've obviously heard the term, "my ball and chain," right? "Fagot" had a similar meaning once and was used by husbands to refer to their wives. It later became applied to men who appeared to be feminized and lacking in heteronormative masculinity.

It's really the equivalent of calling a guy a "*****."

Ok, found a more thorough explanation, so let's keep this thread free of hysterics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_%28slang%29#Etymology

A bundle of sticks. Yes, as in for burning (which is also how cigarettes got that term). I grew up being known as a "faggot" because people thought I was gay and you think it's no fucking big deal. No big deal about having to fear for my life that I'll be another statistic. Every eight days, every eight days.Yeah, I could be the next murder.

[AK]

Communists don’t need to ‘support’ anything, except their communist perspectives and program programs and parties etc,.
We support the international working class in all non-reactionary endeavours. It is indeed odd that you claim that I spend my time locked in the party headquarters writing up the party line when I am an anarchist.

[Adi Shankara]

Except you have no fucking clue what it is like to look into a mirror and see a body that is so alien to you that you spend the first two decades of your life wanting to die.

Don't mind me playing devils advocate, but I was sexually abused as a child and I know exactly how that feels; being turned into a usable object like that does that to you. You start to feel like you don't belong to yourself, but to others, as some commodity.

that feeling isn't the sole property of transsexuals...and that feeling never really goes away.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Don't mind me playing devils advocate, but I was sexually abused as a child and I know exactly how that feels; being turned into a usable object like that does that to you. You start to feel like you don't belong to yourself, but to others, as some commodity.
I'm sorry to hear that. I don't know how it feels to be sexually abused as a child. I was raped at age 19 (as an adult).

But I have one advantage: I've lost my ability to feel anything else by then. As I give 'favors' for money or (back before I stopped doing them) O.C.s and Morphs.



that feeling isn't the sole property of transsexuals...and that feeling never really goes away.
True but people who've been sexually abused as childeren don't usually have to worry about being murdered by a group of people on any given night (or mid-day) on any given street of any given neighborhood. The every eight days statistic is a fear. I don't want to share Teish Green's or Gwen Araujo's fate.

[Adi Shankara]

I'm sorry to hear that. I don't know how it feels to be sexually abused as a child. I was raped at age 19 (as an adult).

I know this is getting really off-topic, but I didn't even know it was sexual abuse until a few days ago. I thought females couldn't abuse males, so I always kind've shrugged it off. then I looked into it online, then I went to see a therapist finally, and yeah.


True but people who've been sexually abused as childeren don't usually have to worry about being murdered by a group of people on any given night (or mid-day) on any given street of any given neighborhood. The every eight days statistic is a fear. I don't want to share Teish Green's or Gwen Araujo's fate.

You should just move to the Bay Area of California, if you can afford to--then you'd never have to worry about that ever again.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

You should just move to the Bay Area of California, if you can afford to--then you'd never have to worry about that ever again.

That if is a big if as there is no way I can afford it. I'd have to turn way more tricks way more often to the extent that it wouldn't be worth it.

[Glenn Beck]

Could a moderator please split the off-topic discussion from this thread so that discussion on the situation in East Africa can continue?

[Adi Shankara]

Could a moderator please split the off-topic discussion from this thread so that discussion on the situation in East Africa can continue?

2nded