Proof of North Korean Democracy

[Weezer]

Since the last NK thread was closed, I want some proof from North Korean supporters that North Korea has some system of democracy or worker's control of the means of production in said country.

Please comrades, no sectarianism. I'm just asking a question.

[ContrarianLemming]

No one is going to do this.

People, you really can't ask questions like "can anyone prove to me Stal was actually alright" and "can someone show me how Mao actually didnt know about the purges". No is going to answer the way you want them too.

And you're a crank if you think NK is democratic.

[The Red Next Door]

That would be hard because NK is so secretive.

[#FF0000]

Infractions for trolling all around. Cut this shit out.

Now everyone try and respond again, with content.

[ContrarianLemming]

Ok
there is no decent proof of democracy in NK, there is much proof of it being anti democratic, a dictatorship.
Even those who seem sympathetic wont say it's democratic (though I have yet to meet a sympathiser)

[A.R.Amistad]

Ok
there is no decent proof of democracy in NK, there is much proof of it being anti democratic, a dictatorship.
Even those who seem sympathetic wont say it's democratic (though I have yet to meet a sympathiser)

People should defend it from US Imperialism, just as much as Iran, etc. But this isn't a matter of sympathy with the NK state as much as it is just adherence to the self-determination of nations and consistent opposition to imperialism

[Joe Payne]

Yes, like I said, the workers have absolutely no control over the means of production. They toil for a top heavy beaucracy that lives in relative luxury while the masses are starving to death. Kim Il Sung has also produced a near cult of worship of himself and his father, something I clearly do not remember reading in Marx's Manifesto.

[Invincible Summer]

Kim Il Sung has also produced a near cult of worship of himself and his father, something I clearly do not remember reading in Marx's Manifesto.

I think you mean Kim Jong-Il, and also following Marx by the letter is silly.

[Cyberwave]

North Korea supposedly has constitutionally protected democracy. Citizens of North Korea have trade unions and political parties such as the Worker's Party of Korea, the Chondoist Party, and The Korean Social Democratic Party. People participate in regional and national levels of democracy.

If you trust the DPRK website. (http://www.korea-dpr.com/faq.htm)

Elections in the DPRK. (http://www1.korea-np.co.jp/pk/195th_issue/2003081602.htm)

If you really want proof go to Soviet Empire and there is a board on the DPRK. Ask Oblisk and he could probably say something more meaningful. Does anyone around here follow Juche anyway?

[AK]

Voting for politicians of the same party is useless not only because they are highly likely to share the same ideas and lend support to the status quo, but because voting for anyone to rule over you just amounts to switching around individual members of the ruling class.

And besides:

The eligible voters who had registered at constituency No. 649 all went to the polls and 100 percent of them voted for Kim Jong Il, said a report on the results of the election of the SPA.
I get the slight feeling that election might have been rigged.

[ckaihatsu]

Just like to add here that we really can't talk about North Korea without discussing China as well, since its existence and status quo is so bound to the looming China economy and state -- similar to discussing Tibet's political composition, or that of Puerto Rico in relation to the U.S....

[manic expression]

Voting for politicians of the same party is useless not only because they are highly likely to share the same ideas and lend support to the status quo, but because voting for anyone to rule over you just amounts to switching around individual members of the ruling class.
If that party is the working-class vanguard then it's a moot point.

[Sir Comradical]

...............

[Chambered Word]

If that party is the working-class vanguard then it's a moot point.

We don't need democracy because we've got a group of people who claim to be committed to socialism. Fuck the masses and socialism, we've got a vanguard!

How individualistic and un-Marxist can you get. :rolleyes:

[manic expression]

We don't need democracy because we've got a group of people who claim to be committed to socialism. Fuck the masses and socialism, we've got a vanguard!

How individualistic and un-Marxist can you get. :rolleyes:
Go back and read the post I was responding to, and this time, do try to comprehend what Alpha Kappa was saying instead of ignoring context entirely. Thanks a bunch.

[Joe Payne]

I think you mean Kim Jong-Il, and also following Marx by the letter is silly.


Yes, I apologize for the error of the name. However, I was merely pointing out that there is nothing at all Marxist about North Korea or its megalomaniacal leadership.

[AK]

If that party is the working-class vanguard then it's a moot point.
When you elect representatives (and not delegates, which essentially just carry peoples' voices) to a government, you are electing new members of the ruling class. They have the authority to directly participate in the overall government of society, and the voters don't. The moment a working-class individual gets the authority to rule over others (including others who may or may not participate in a direct-democratic way in just local government and thus have limited power. I wrote that to counter a common strawman that others typically use to justify claims of democracy), they are no longer working-class.

I think this quote by Bakunin sums it up pretty well:

When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called "the People's Stick."

[manic expression]

When you elect representatives (and not delegates, which essentially just carry peoples' voices) to a government, you are electing new members of the ruling class.
This logic would lead us to believe that Bill Gates and Robert Murdoch are outside of the ruling class today, that they are disenfranchised and oppressed by the capitalist state. They are not. Therefore this dichotomy is entirely false. One can be a member of the ruling class without being a member of the state, and that's the point of a government run by a vanguard party (KWP being one example).


They have the authority to directly participate in the overall government of society, and the voters don't. The moment a working-class individual gets the authority to rule over others (including others who may or may not participate in a direct-democratic way in just local government and thus have limited power. I wrote that to counter a common strawman that others typically use to justify claims of democracy), they are no longer working-class.So you're saying that if a worker is elected to head a strike board, s/he is no longer a worker? And the leader of the local soup kitchen...nothing but a regular tyrant, right? Again, this logic is wholly flawed.


I think this quote by Bakunin sums it up pretty well:And what would Bakunin say if he saw "the People's Stick" being used to fend off imperialism? Because that's exactly what the DPRK is doing.

[Adi Shankara]

But this isn't a matter of sympathy with the NK state as much as it is just adherence to the self-determination of nations and consistent opposition to imperialism

I agree that imperialism needs to be opposed in every sphere of society, but lets be honest: the only self determination in North Korea is the Kim Dynasty's determination to be selfish.

[Adi Shankara]

North Korea supposedly has constitutionally protected democracy. Citizens of North Korea have trade unions and political parties such as the Worker's Party of Korea, the Chondoist Party, and The Korean Social Democratic Party. People participate in regional and national levels of democracy.

please tell me you don't believe in this Kim propaganda.

[Slavoj Zizzle]

NK is a feudal system, just like it was during the Japanese and then during the war. There's probably a lot of freedom simply because the government is so remote from the peasants and farms. Of course, there's no real way to know since information is so scarce and the information we do get is so unbelievably biased. Not sure why people on here harp on NK, we're on the internet guys, you don't have to rely on the shitty U.S. media anymore. Do a little research, you'll find that there are plenty of countries which are just as bad, and in fact there's a much worse country called Afghanistan which we are currently destroying in the name of freedom and democracy.

[AK]

This logic would lead us to believe that Bill Gates and Robert Murdoch are outside of the ruling class today, that they are disenfranchised and oppressed by the capitalist state. They are not. Therefore this dichotomy is entirely false. One can be a member of the ruling class without being a member of the state, and that's the point of a government run by a vanguard party (KWP being one example).
Actually there is nothing in what you quoted that would lead me to believe what you said. The politicians are being given the power to rule over others whilst in office. They are rulers. Nothing I said denied that those with economic power were outside of the ruling class.

And you can be a member of the party without being a member of the state - it's only high-ranking members and politicians that have any authority over the actions of the state.


So you're saying that if a worker is elected to head a strike board, s/he is no longer a worker? And the leader of the local soup kitchen...nothing but a regular tyrant, right? Again, this logic is wholly flawed.
Soup kitchens are not exactly enduring governmental authorities. And there is a difference between coordinating workers temporarily and ruling over them as a member of a centralised government.


And what would Bakunin say if he saw "the People's Stick" being used to fend off imperialism? Because that's exactly what the DPRK is doing.
But it is not solely doing that. I think Bakunin would hate both ruling classes - but he would hate the American more because they are an imperialist ruling class. And you just can't help but hide behind the North's anti-imperialism can you?

[manic expression]

Actually there is nothing in what you quoted that would lead me to believe what you said. The politicians are being given the power to rule over others whilst in office. They are rulers. Nothing I said denied that those with economic power were outside of the ruling class.
It's exactly what you said. People who don't hold positions in the state are not part of the "new ruling class" chosen by elections (your words), so they are logically oppressed by that ruling class. That applies fully and totally to Rupert Murdoch, who doesn't hold power in the capitalist state.

Either the state compromises a ruling class in and of itself (what you said before) or it doesn't (what you're suggesting now). Which one is it?


Soup kitchens are not exactly enduring governmental authorities. And there is a difference between coordinating workers temporarily and ruling over them as a member of a centralised government.
Soup kitchens fit perfectly into the definition you presented. The head of a soup kitchen can deny people food and board. The head of a soup kitchen can tell people what to do and how to do it. Are you saying that's not authority over others? Stop changing around your own argument.


But it is not solely doing that. I think Bakunin would hate both ruling classes - but he would hate the American more because they are an imperialist ruling class. And you just can't help but hide behind the North's anti-imperialism can you?
The "North" is only the "North" because it resisted imperialism at the cost of too many lives, so I'm not hiding behind anything. The only reason the DPRK exists is because it defied imperialism and fought for the freedom of the Korean people. But if I am hiding behind that, I'll do it all day with no apologies whatsoever.

[Sir Comradical]

Pretty much everyone here would oppose any form of imperialist aggression against the DPRK, it's also true that a lot of the DPRK's problems, like the famines in the 90's can be attributed to sanctions. However you can't put everything down to imperialist aggression/capitalist sabotage, so I'd like to get the reactions of people who defend North Korea's system, to tell me what they think of this.


Kwon Hyuk, who has changed his name, was the former military attaché at the North Korean Embassy in Beijing. He was also the chief of management at Camp 22. In the BBC's This World documentary, to be broadcast tonight, Hyuk claims he now wants the world to know what is happening.

'I witnessed a whole family being tested on suffocating gas and dying in the gas chamber,' he said. 'The parents, son and and a daughter. The parents were vomiting and dying, but till the very last moment they tried to save kids by doing mouth-to-mouth breathing.'

And this...


His testimony is backed up by Soon Ok-lee, who was imprisoned for seven years. 'An officer ordered me to select 50 healthy female prisoners,' she said. 'One of the guards handed me a basket full of soaked cabbage, told me not to eat it but to give it to the 50 women. I gave them out and heard a scream from those who had eaten them. They were all screaming and vomiting blood. All who ate the cabbage leaves started violently vomiting blood and screaming with pain. It was hell. In less than 20 minutes they were quite dead.'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/feb/01/northkorea

What about the story of Shin Dong Hyuk?


The exception is Shin, who is 26 and lives in a small rented room here in Seoul. He is a thin, short, shy man, with quick, wary eyes, a baby face, and sinewy arms bowed from childhood labor. There are burn scars on his back and left arm from where he was tortured by fire at age 14, when he was unable to explain why his soon-to-be-hanged mother had tried to escape. The middle finger of his right hand is cut off at the first knuckle, punishment for accidentally dropping a sewing machine in the garment factory at his camp.

It just evil what they did to his 14 year old child. They cut off one of his fingers and forced him to watch the execution of his mother and brother.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/10/AR2008121003855_4.html?nav=rss_email/components

[AK]

It's exactly what you said. People who don't hold positions in the state are not part of the "new ruling class" chosen by elections (your words), so they are logically oppressed by that ruling class. That applies fully and totally to Rupert Murdoch, who doesn't hold power in the capitalist state.

Either the state compromises a ruling class in and of itself (what you said before) or it doesn't (what you're suggesting now). Which one is it?
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, but there was nothing in what I said that stated that those with great economic power but not directly in control of the state were not ruling class.


Soup kitchens fit perfectly into the definition you presented. The head of a soup kitchen can deny people food and board. The head of a soup kitchen can tell people what to do and how to do it. Are you saying that's not authority over others? Stop changing around your own argument.
The soup kitchen head does not control means of coercion or have any sort of power to manage government or economy.


The "North" is only the "North" because it resisted imperialism at the cost of too many lives, so I'm not hiding behind anything. The only reason the DPRK exists is because it defied imperialism and fought for the freedom of the Korean people. But if I am hiding behind that, I'll do it all day with no apologies whatsoever.
Alright I won't call it the North I'll call it the DPRK.

[manic expression]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, but there was nothing in what I said that stated that those with great economic power but not directly in control of the state were not ruling class.
So ruling class is not just based on office holding but on the economic and social structure of a society. That's what I'm trying to say. That's why the KWP is not a "new ruling class" over Korea, but the vanguard of the Korean masses in their struggle for liberation.

[AK]

So ruling class is not just based on office holding but on the economic and social structure of a society. That's what I'm trying to say. That's why the KWP is not a "new ruling class" over Korea, but the vanguard of the Korean masses in their struggle for liberation.
No it can be both. Sorry if I wasn't clear about it.

[Thirsty Crow]

So ruling class is not just based on office holding but on the economic and social structure of a society. That's what I'm trying to say. That's why the KWP is not a "new ruling class" over Korea, but the vanguard of the Korean masses in their struggle for liberation.
And where is the evidence of this class struggle for liberation? In all of your posts, there isn't a shred of evidence.
Cyberwave's links come closest to what we may call "evidence". Although, I would take what is written on DPRK's site with a grain of salt.
So, do you know of any evidence supporting the thesis that there is democratic workers' control of the means of production or not?
If not, I'd advise you to stop glorifying the North Korean regime.

[manic expression]

And where is the evidence of this class struggle for liberation? In all of your posts, there isn't a shred of evidence.
Cyberwave's links come closest to what we may call "evidence". Although, I would take what is written on DPRK's site with a grain of salt.
So, do you know of any evidence supporting the thesis that there is democratic workers' control of the means of production or not?
If not, I'd advise you to stop glorifying the North Korean regime.
There is plenty of evidence that shows that the KWP is acting as a vanguard. Here are some examples in addition to what's already been posted:

http://www.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6178&news_iv_ctrl=1701

http://www.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=10621&news_iv_ctrl=1701

http://www.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5811&news_iv_ctrl=1701

[Tifosi]

If you trust the DPRK website. (http://www.korea-dpr.com/faq.htm)

I like how the first thing on that site is "1. Can I get a signed photograph from Leader Kim Jong IL?". Pure crazy fucktards:laugh:

[KurtFF8]

If you really want proof go to Soviet Empire and there is a board on the DPRK. Ask Oblisk and he could probably say something more meaningful. Does anyone around here follow Juche anyway?

This is bascially the answer you're looking for here. Oblisk is one of the more knowledgeable posters about the DPRK and is quite sympathetic to it. I believe he was banned from RevLeft for being a DPRK supporter though (or perhaps it had to do with abortion, I don't really recall)

[Wanted Man]

His problem is that he not only knows quite a bit about the DPRK, but also happens to be a third-positionist nut. I also think most of his "expertise" comes down to saying all kinds of opinionated stuff with very strong conviction. I think there is a significant difference between knowing a lot and having a lot to say about a subject.

Anyway, the first article that I had in mind to answer the question is this report (http://www.nlg.org/korea/2003delegation_report.html) by the National Lawyers Guild, but my memory failed me. The article does not actually say a lot about democracy in the DPRK, except that they found neither positive nor negative evidence of it. I'm posting it anyway, because it's a decent piece of writing about some other subjects.

[Thirsty Crow]

The article does not actually say a lot about democracy in the DPRK, except that they found neither positive nor negative evidence of it.
This is my personal stance, basically, since I haven't stumbled upon anything resembling a piece of evidence. Only conflicting signs and heavily mediated/biased opinions.

[Chimurenga.]

Is this evidence enough?

http://marxistleninist.wordpress.com/2008/11/30/cpn-maoist-on-juche-in-dprk/


From the point of view of multiparty competition, the political system of Korea seems a closed system; however, there is no feeling of it being a closed system as we enter into the inner part of the political system. There is a committee system from top to grass roots level; citizens have authority of fundamental rights. There is a full democratic tradition to take part in discussion and debate openly. There is a systematic process to exercise democracy and synthesize the opinions of the people. In our visit and talks, we felt that a harmonious environment has been created between the state power, party, institutions and organizations for discussion and debate. The people have accepted the political power heartily. The political power has always accepted and given priority to the sentiment of the people and their necessity.


In our point of view, the government that is imposed on the people against the interests, ambitions and aspirations of the people is authoritarian. The government of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is more democratic. If the political power is run following the aspirations of the people, it is not totalitarian. The political power cannot be totalitarian. The government is responsible to all the sectors of the Korean people. There is a close relationship between the government and the people. The charge of ‘totalitarian’ is the propaganda of imperialism to conceal their misdeeds in their “democratic” countries. The Korean people strongly deny these kinds of imperialist propaganda.


I got opportunity to see some historical and cultural programs held there. We watched sports, cultural fairs and festivals. There was a huge volunteer participation of the people. We saw that the political power of Korea has not created any compulsion or obstruction against the will and aspiration of the people. They are free to think and advance ahead to develop their talent and skill. The government has given priority to their fundamental view point. The government respects and addresses public opinion and aspiration.

[Cyberwave]

please tell me you don't believe in this Kim propaganda.

I made sure to say "if you believe the DPRK website."

Either way I have a tough time believing the DPRK is truly as horrible and "totalitarian" as it is made out to be. I am not saying they are Marxist, but a level of sympathy and even support for the DPRK is acceptable in my opinion. The fact of the matter is at times it seems every article on the DPRK is so contradictory and polarizing to one another that it becomes so excessively hard to figure out what the truth is. Marxist-Leninists are able to pick out the truth about Stalin because he was far more of a true Marxist than any of the Kim dynasty and because of this he is worth defending. But it's always been obvious that Kim Il-Sung and Kim Jong-Il were not Marxists so we don't particularly feel obliged to go off on a hunt for some proofs... And no, I am not turning this thread into another Stalin slugfest, I'm just saying a potential reason.

[Ocean Seal]

Its difficult to know. Kim Jong Il isn't exactly too keen on sharing information and the capitalists that come into his country aren't exactly looking to tell the truth. That being said the truth is between the two.

[the last donut of the night]

NK is a feudal system, just like it was during the Japanese and then during the war.

lolwut?

The DPRK, whatever you think of it, is not a feudal system. This is pure media bullshit, along with the whole "hermit kingdom" line of thought.

[gorillafuck]

lolwut?

The DPRK, whatever you think of it, is not a feudal system. This is pure media bullshit, along with the whole "hermit kingdom" line of thought.
I've never heard anyone say NK is feudal in the mainstream media, actually. I've only heard leftists say it.

The DPRK is a military dictatorship with a command economy. Can someone please explain to me how it is in any way at all "feudal"?

[Chambered Word]

There is plenty of evidence that shows that the KWP is acting as a vanguard. Here are some examples in addition to what's already been posted:

http://www.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6178&news_iv_ctrl=1701

http://www.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=10621&news_iv_ctrl=1701

http://www.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5811&news_iv_ctrl=1701

I'm more interested in concrete evidence of North Korean democracy, which I suspect is going to be hard to find since Kim Jong-Il managed to win an election on 100% of the votes.

[Barry Lyndon]

Pretty much everyone here would oppose any form of imperialist aggression against the DPRK, it's also true that a lot of the DPRK's problems, like the famines in the 90's can be attributed to sanctions. However you can't put everything down to imperialist aggression/capitalist sabotage, so I'd like to get the reactions of people who defend North Korea's system, to tell me what they think of this.



And this...



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/feb/01/northkorea

What about the story of Shin Dong Hyuk?



It just evil what they did to his 14 year old child. They cut off one of his fingers and forced him to watch the execution of his mother and brother.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/10/AR2008121003855_4.html?nav=rss_email/components

The deafening silence from North Korea's defenders when confronted with these articles is extremely revealing.

[Chimurenga.]

The deafening silence from North Korea's defenders when confronted with these articles is extremely revealing.

Deafening silence? The sources provided are centrist (maybe even rightist) newspapers that only serve and benefit the ruling class. I mean, these "accounts" are no different than any other bullshit that has been spewed for decades now.

One contradiction, for example, with one of these articles is this and it comes from The Guardian..


"Most are imprisoned because their relatives are believed to be critical of the regime. Many are Christians, a religion believed by Kim Jong-il to be one of the greatest threats to his power."

Funny. This totally conflicts with this: http://marxistleninist.wordpress.com/2010/04/01/american-trespasser-interviewed-in-north-korea/


“Being a devout christian, I thought such things as praying are unimaginable in the DPRK due to the suppression of religion. I gradually became aware, however, that I was wrong. People neither regarded praying as something unusual nor disturbed it. I was provided with conditions for praying every day as I wished. What astonished me more was that a bible was returned to me. This fact alone convinced me that religious freedom is fully ensured in the DPRK. I came to have stronger belief as I had an opportunity to attend the service in the Pongsu Church in Pyongyang. I worshipped and there, there was the preacher, there was a pastor, there was a choir, they knew the hymns, they knew the word of God. That’s why I was completely amazed. I began to weep and weep in the christian service, because I learned that there are churches and christians such as Pongsu Kyohoe (church) in different cities and regions all throughout the DPRK. They worship, pray and preach freely the word of the Bible and Christ’s word. What I have seen and heard in the DPRK convinced me that I misunderstood it. So I seriously repented of the wrong I committed, taken in by the West’s false propaganda."

[Obs]

I'm more interested in concrete evidence of North Korean democracy, which I suspect is going to be hard to find since Kim Jong-Il managed to win an election on 100% of the votes.
Surely a result like that can only serve as a testiment to the love the people of the DPRK feel for their leaders?

EDIT: I just realised people might think I'm being serious. I'm not.

[Adil3tr]

People should defend it from US Imperialism, just as much as Iran, etc. But this isn't a matter of sympathy with the NK state as much as it is just adherence to the self-determination of nations and consistent opposition to imperialism

I literally think it can't get any worse, and they have no resources, as long as there isn't a war, Kim Jong Il needs to come down. He's fucking insane. He's not communist OR Stalinist, he's some egomanical fascist douche.

[Os Cangaceiros]

There is no proof, because there is no democracy. The only people who dispute that are those who rail against the "bourgeois" media outlets who apparently fabricate every single DPRK human rights violation out of whole cloth, while pointing to Marxist-Leninist websites and the DPRK's homepage (objective sources all) as proof to the contrary.

[mykittyhasaboner]

There is no proof, because there is no democracy. The only people who dispute that are those who rail against the "bourgeois" media outlets who apparently fabricate every single DPRK human rights violation out of whole cloth, while pointing to Marxist-Leninist websites and the DPRK's homepage (objective sources all) as proof to the contrary.

The National Lawyers Guild is not a Marxist-Leninist organization, this was already posted in this thread.

http://www.nlg.org/korea/2003delegation_report.html


H. Political System

As in Cuba and other one party socialist societies, North Korea has a system of direct democracy in which elections are held for local peoples committees, district and provincial committees and to the Supreme People’s Assembly. The absence of other parties is not considered a failing, as the entire society is socialist. The question of multiple parties did not even seem understandable to those we spoke to. The delegation questioned whether within that system, there is in fact more participatory democracy than in the American federal system or the parliamentary system in which democracy ceases to operate once the elections are over. It is more circular, with local committees sending up to the next level requests, complaints and so on and so on up to the national level with discussion, at least in theory at these levels and then feedback to the local level until an agreement is reached based on resources available and circumstances.

However, the issue is not whether we agree with DPRK’s system or feel that our democracy is better or more just. The sharing of ideas, principles and approaches can only come after establishing trust and building relationship. The delegation feels that it is incumbent on the United States to commit to peace and demilitarization of Korea and to agree to more exchanges. Through these exchanges ideas also change hands and both societies can benefit from the dialogue. Certainly we cannot say that only one political system is successful and generates a participatory and healthy society. We hope that future delegations can learn more about political dialogue within the DPRK system and share the pros and cons of our system without blame or judgment.

I'm not saying this is irrefutable proof, it's simply not biased because they aren't Marxist-Leninists, and seem to say the same thing as many of the ML sites have said.

[Chimurenga.]

There is no proof, because there is no democracy. The only people who dispute that are those who rail against the "bourgeois" media outlets who apparently fabricate every single DPRK human rights violation out of whole cloth, while pointing to Marxist-Leninist websites and the DPRK's homepage (objective sources all) as proof to the contrary.

Yeah. A report from a member of the UCPN-M on his visit to the DPRK, a report from a Lawyers Guild, and an interview with an American trespasser.... That is no proof whatsoever! They are all just a bunch of lying Marxist-Leninists! Ahhh!!

[Os Cangaceiros]

Yeah. A report from a member of the UCPN-M on his visit to the DPRK, a report from a Lawyers Guild, and an interview with an American trespasser.... That is no proof whatsoever! They are all just a bunch of lying Marxist-Leninists! Ahhh!!

Totally! A member of the Nepalese communist party and a re-published report on a ML-ist blog concerning some stooge's statement about N. Korean religious freedom (as if that's even something that communists should be concerned about) is totally proof that N. Korean isn't the wretched military dictatorship that anyone with a half-functioning cerebrum recognizes it as!

I'll give you the NLG report.

[mykittyhasaboner]

Totally! A member of the Nepalese communist party and a re-published report on a ML-ist blog concerning some stooge's statement about N. Korean religious freedom (as if that's even something that communists should be concerned about) is totally proof that N. Korean isn't the wretched military dictatorship that anyone with a half-functioning cerebrum recognizes it as!

Well religious freedom is definitely something communists should support. Aside from that, do you know any military dictatorships that provide "free" education, housing, and health care for their people? You can't just lump them into the same category as the plethora of actual wretched 'military dictatorships' which are involved in butchering their own people. If you define military dictatorship as a highly "militarized" state then Korea certainly is one. If you are implying that a military dictatorship is a state where the military forcibly denies the people basic rights for a dignified existence and prevent any kind of democratic action then it would seem this is an exaggeration, according to the NLG report.

[scarletghoul]

First of all, there's no such thing as 'hard evidence' or 'proof' on the internet with regards to the internal workings of a largely internetless country. Secondly, everything's written by someone, and when it comes to the DPRK every source of information is heavily biased.

So its not a case of 'what can you prove' because the only way to get solid proof either way would be to go talk to the north Korean workers themselves, and that's very difficult to do. Unfortunately all we can really do is speculate and assess all information based on its source, consistency, logical implications, and so on. I don't see the point in posting any more links (enough have been posted. There are many other relevant pages around if you wanna look for them) so here's just a few logical observations based on the given sources which I think point to a functioning democratic system in the north of Korea:

1.
A close examination of the list of the newly elected SPA members revealed 340 of the 687 members of the North's 10th-term parliament, or nearly 50 percent of them, were replaced.
It's hard to imagine a 'totalitarian autocracy' replacing half of it's parliament in rigged elections. Really a change like this on such a scale is only explainable by mass democratic participation.

2. As others have said (but this is so important) the National Lawyers Guild has no reason to spread lies about North Korea being democratic :lol:. They speak of direct democracy, of trade union power, of encouragement for workers to speak out, workers committees, and so on. The only comparable evidence for the opposing argument would be if a DPRK-aligned socialist group visited the country and came back reporting it to be not democratic at all. This has never happened.

3. Another observation by the NLG, aside from the democratic system itself, is the police presence. They report

Another surprise was the absence of a police presence throughout the country. We never saw a single policeman with a gun or even a club. The only police we saw were police officers, mainly women, directing traffic at certain intersections. There were occasional guard stations along the road down south as we approached the DMZ. We saw soldiers in many places, usually helping harvest crops or working in the fields or helping on a construction site. But we rarely saw a soldier armed.
This suggests that the people are one with the state as no overt police presence is there repressing the people on behalf of the state. The bit about the soldiers also suggests that it is a Peoples' Army. In other words the claims of the DPRK being a "police state" is complete rubbish and could not be further from the truth, if this report is to be believed (and again there's no reason why it shouldn't be). Certainly a good indicator of peoples' power is the degree of threatening police presence.

4. The Guardian article is pretty dubious to say the least. "Kwon Hyuk, who has changed his name".. how convenient.. And anyone can make up some prisoner claims. This happened all the time through history, don't you think it still goes on ? And their claim that Christians are imprisoned is silly and unfounded, not least because western documentaries have shown church services in the country. In other words the whole thing is crap and not really usable as evidence of anything. Of course this is true of just about every antiDPRK article.

This is just from the links posted and I'm sure more can be deduced from a closer look. But yeah, this is the general trend in all the online research I've done on North Korea, so this is why I believe it to be a functioning socialist democracy. However yes, one can't ignore the fact that Kim was elected with 99.9% of votes. It seems the system is not 100% democratic and direct when it comes to the top leaders (though reports from all sources acknowledge that the leadership is held in high public esteem), however in general the apparatus of workers' power seems to work pretty well and there is no apparent conflict between it and the leadership. In other words, there is direct democracy accross most of the state except for the top leadership which is decided by the (democratically elected) government but nonetheless functions with consensus of the empowered workers. It's not completely perfect but the workers do have real power and the top leadership is firmly on their side, if not directly accountable.

Not perfect but definitely one of the most democratic countries on Earth, alongside Cuba, and worthy of the title People's Democratic Republic.

[scarletghoul]

I literally think it can't get any worse, and they have no resources, as long as there isn't a war, Kim Jong Il needs to come down. He's fucking insane. He's not communist OR Stalinist, he's some egomanical fascist douche.There is a war.
Why is KJI insane. Becuase Team America said so.
Do you know what fascism is.
We are talking about the democratic system, not Kim Jong-il.

edit: these points may as well be copy-pasted as a preliminary at the start of every thread on Korea. :lol:

[Os Cangaceiros]

Well religious freedom is definitely something communists should support. Aside from that, do you know any military dictatorships that provide "free" education, housing, and health care for their people? You can't just lump them into the same category as the plethora of actual wretched 'military dictatorships' which are involved in butchering their own people. If you define military dictatorship as a highly "militarized" state then Korea certainly is one. If you are implying that a military dictatorship is a state where the military forcibly denies the people basic rights for a dignified existence and prevent any kind of democratic action then it would seem this is an exaggeration, according to the NLG report.

I don't know if the N. Korean state denies it's citizens basic rights or not. And I would argue that few people actually do, including the people who compiled that report; the reason being, of course, that the North is an autocratic state that's difficult to really enter and witness firsthand*. What I do know is what has come out of the DPRK itself, in the form of statements, and the whole concept of putting the military at the forefront of social and political life stands against pretty much all of my beliefs.

Of course, this is usually explained away as a result of the fact that N. Korea is beseiged. And there's truth to that. But I don't believe for a second that the N. Korean government represents the interests of the Korean working class or socialism in general.

*Interestingly enough I've heard many leftists criticize the US military operations at Gitmo for being secretive and abusive...I'm guessing that the existence of N. Korean institutions like Camp 22 are totally understandable, though.

[Barry Lyndon]

Everything that has been said to defend North Korea's authoritarian behavior applies to Cuba just as much, if not more so.

Cuba, unlike North Korea, is only 90 miles away from the US superpower. It has been subjected to a blockade for over 50 years. It has experienced waves of US-sponsored terrorist attacks that have killed and wounded thousands of its citizens. There have been over 600 assassination attempts against Fidel Castro, many sponsored by the CIA. And it also struggled in the 1990's when its oil supply was cut off when the USSR collapsed, like North Korea. For over a decade it had virtually no international allies.

However:

There has never been famine in Cuba, even the 'Special Period' in the 1990's.
Cuba does not still have one half of its entire population being fed by UN Relief like North Korea.

Even Castro's critics charge that there are, at most, a few dozen political prisoners. From what is known about North Korea, there may be thousands of political prisoners.

Cuban schoolchildren are not taught that Fidel was born by growing out of a tree. Fidel is revered, but he is not literally worshipped like Kim il Sung and his son is.

In spite of relentless US hostility, it is possible for outsiders to visit, work in, and live in Cuba. It is a remarkably open society given the circumstances. I am friends with someone who was a student in Havana for several months. It is almost impossible for an American to tour, much less stay in North Korea for any extended period of time.

You can only blame imperialism so much. At some point you have to admit that a large share of the blame for North Korea's wretched state lies with its leadership.

[Chimurenga.]

Cuba, unlike North Korea, is only 90 miles away from the US superpower.

Right and the DPRK is surrounded by Russia, China, and Japan.


It has been subjected to a blockade for over 50 years.

Same as the DPRK.


It has experienced waves of US-sponsored terrorist attacks that have killed and wounded thousands of its citizens.

This is the purpose of their military. So things like this don't happen.


There has never been famine in Cuba, even the 'Special Period' in the 1990's.Cuba does not still have one half of its entire population being fed by UN Relief like North Korea.

If you compare the DPRK's arable land (14%) with Cuba's (27%) and take into account climates, it should be clear. Not to mention that Cuba is in an area where they can build the ties and have consistent trading.


Cuban schoolchildren are not taught that Fidel was born by growing out of a tree. Fidel is revered, but he is not literally worshipped like Kim il Sung and his son is.

Maybe not in Cuba but certainly in Latin America, he seems to be a godlike figure.


It is almost impossible for an American to tour, much less stay in North Korea for any extended period of time.

Not true at all. There are tours of the DPRK which last usually a week.
http://www.koryogroup.com/travel_groupTours.php

[Jazzhands]

Right and the DPRK is surrounded by Russia, China, and Japan.



Same as the DPRK.



This is the purpose of their military. So things like this don't happen.



If you compare the DPRK's arable land (14%) with Cuba's (27%) and take into account climates, it should be clear. Not to mention that Cuba is in an area where they can build the ties and have consistent trading.



Maybe not in Cuba but certainly in Latin America, he seems to be a godlike figure.



Not true at all. There are tours of the DPRK which last usually a week.
http://www.koryogroup.com/travel_groupTours.php

Yeah, and those tours are guided by armed guards called "minders" who make sure you don't go anywhere you aren't supposed to. May I remind you that Kim Jong Il lives in a palace? Yeah, he's a real class struggler, all right. He's a one-man bourgeoisie.

[Wanted Man]

Yeah, and those tours are guided by armed guards called "minders" who make sure you don't go anywhere you aren't supposed to.

How would you know? Did you go there? Or can you find any reports of tourists with armed guards? You can't, because it's bullshit.

When in doubt, make shit up!


Totally! A member of the Nepalese communist party and a re-published report on a ML-ist blog concerning some stooge's statement about N. Korean religious freedom (as if that's even something that communists should be concerned about) is totally proof that N. Korean isn't the wretched military dictatorship that anyone with a half-functioning cerebrum recognizes it as!

(emphasis mine)

What kind of argument is this? The usual appeal to "common sense" that anyone can make. This includes "common sense conservatism" or the "gesundes Volksempfinden" (healthy popular attitude) of Nazi Germany: every common German man just knew that the Jews had stabbed the nation in the back during WWI, and any evidence to the contrary was inconsequential compared to the "common sense" that the state tried to instil.

As many posts in this thread show, ruling-class "common sense" is still utilised to great effect. This works to the point where even the most fervent anti-imperialists and communists passionately defend the ruling-class version of events with the argument that it is simply healthy, common knowledge. Calling a spade a spade, if it walks like duck... (In this case, the more realistic perspective is that the news calls it a spade and says it's a duck.) This communist defence of imperialist orthodoxy is so strong that it almost seems like a kind of Stockholm syndrome.

[scarletghoul]

Something tells me that if RevLeft existed 90 years ago we'd be having the same conversations with these people about the Bolsheviks communising women, and so on.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

How would you know? Did you go there? Or can you find any reports of tourists with armed guards? You can't, because it's bullshit.




I have Chinese friends who have been to the DPRK as tourists. They have pictures to prove it.They got a tour of Pyongyang. They said North Korea seemed very repressive. It was obvious the tour was a "Potemkin village",people were not on the streets in areas the group went to and things seemed stage managed. The tourists had to stay in tightly controlled groups with "tour guides" and minders.I don't know if the minders were armed but I would be surprised if they weren't.

I've heard stories of DPRK students studying in China. One guy played on a soccer team w/other, mostly Western students. He had to be very careful who he talked to. He had a poster of Kim Il Sung in his room.

On the other hand I have heard other reports of the DPRK. I'm a teacher in the US. For a time I taught adult education classes for Asian women (a long story). I had students from Japan. Japan has a large ethnic Korean population dating back from the 1890s. Korean families have lived in Japan for almost 100 years but are still not allowed basic citizenship rights and are discriminated against. Korean-Japanese cannot attend a university in Japan or receive any higher education. South Korea has taken no interest in these people but North Korea does. So almost the only chance for a university education is to study in the DPRK. I've had several Korean-Japanese students who've studied there. They said it was a positive experience, the people were very friendly and cared about one another.I wish I had pumped them for more info but they seemed reluctant to talk much about it.

[Jazzhands]

How would you know? Did you go there? Or can you find any reports of tourists with armed guards? You can't, because it's bullshit.

When in doubt, make shit up!



(emphasis mine)

What kind of argument is this? The usual appeal to "common sense" that anyone can make. This includes "common sense conservatism" or the "gesundes Volksempfinden" (healthy popular attitude) of Nazi Germany: every common German man just knew that the Jews had stabbed the nation in the back during WWI, and any evidence to the contrary was inconsequential compared to the "common sense" that the state tried to instil.

As many posts in this thread show, ruling-class "common sense" is still utilised to great effect. This works to the point where even the most fervent anti-imperialists and communists passionately defend the ruling-class version of events with the argument that it is simply healthy, common knowledge. Calling a spade a spade, if it walks like duck... (In this case, the more realistic perspective is that the news calls it a spade and says it's a duck.) This communist defence of imperialist orthodoxy is so strong that it almost seems like a kind of Stockholm syndrome.

Actually I did find several reports of minders. The actual eyewitness account of a trip to North Korea first introduced me to the concept. Eyewitnesses have eyes, even if they're the ignorant, propagandized Joe Schmo American.

http://crowcroft.net/dprk1_2.htm

[Wanted Man]

I have Chinese friends who have been to the DPRK as tourists. They have pictures to prove it.They got a tour of Pyongyang. They said North Korea seemed very repressive. It was obvious the tour was a "Potemkin village",people were not on the streets in areas the group went to and things seemed stage managed.

It's not very special to go to the DPRK as a tourist and take pictures of Pyongyang. Just pretty expensive. You can book it right now. There are literally dozens of travel reports on the internet.

Anyway, I've heard the "Potemkin village" thing before, and it doesn't compute. What this basically means is that all activity in the nation's capital is put on hold just to... well, to achieve what, exactly? To put on a giant show for the small amount of foreigners who are there at any time? What about other places? What about the mass games; do they ship in 100,000 spectators just for the tourists? But of course, the clever tourists always manage to rumble this cunning plan, so it doesn't work anyway. Yes, that makes sense! Sometimes people just see what they want to see.


The tourists had to stay in tightly controlled groups with "tour guides" and minders.I don't know if the minders were armed but I would be surprised if they weren't.

The fact is that there are tour guides, but they are not armed. I'll eat my hat if anyone can post proof of "armed minders".


I've heard stories of DPRK students studying in China. One guy played on a soccer team w/other, mostly Western students. He had to be very careful who he talked to. He had a poster of Kim Il Sung in his room.

The North Korean football team played in the World Cup this year. One of their players was born in Japan and plays for a club there. He told his team mates all about the luxuries he enjoys in Japan. Are all those other North Korean players in danger now?

Then again, they might be. Most media outlets were convinced that all the players were going to be shot after losing all their games, and when the media say it, it's true! If all the players turn up alive for their next games, what explanation will they have? Maybe it will be that the cursed Stalinists have invented technology to bring them back from the death as loyal footballing zombies.


Actually I did find several reports of minders. The actual eyewitness account of a trip to North Korea first introduced me to the concept. Eyewitnesses have eyes, even if they're the ignorant, propagandized Joe Schmo American.

http://crowcroft.net/dprk1_2.htm

So where are their weapons? You said there were "armed minders". In fact, the only point where the word "armed" appeared in the text is where the guy says that nobody in Panmunjom was armed, not even the soldiers.

It seems that this guy regarded the guides as "the Minders" from the start. Just using a word a lot does not make it true. Some people on Revleft like to change people's names when quoting them; for instance, I could start quoting someone as "Dickhead" from now on. That does not automatically make this person a dickhead.

The American guy picked fights with them, it seems. He is proud that he "shut them up" at one point and he's convinced that all Koreans who get in touch with tourists will eventually be sent to "the Camps" for "cultural contamination". There are plenty of reports where people got along just fine with those guides, by the way, and they corresponded afterwards. But I guess that's just teh evil regime!1!1 writing fake letters; the Minders are already in camps for talking to Americans! :rolleyes:

[Jazzhands]

It's not very special to go to the DPRK as a tourist and take pictures of Pyongyang. Just pretty expensive. You can book it right now. There are literally dozens of travel reports on the internet.

Anyway, I've heard the "Potemkin village" thing before, and it doesn't compute. What this basically means is that all activity in the nation's capital is put on hold just to... well, to achieve what, exactly? To put on a giant show for the small amount of foreigners who are there at any time? What about other places? What about the mass games; do they ship in 100,000 spectators just for the tourists? But of course, the clever tourists always manage to rumble this cunning plan, so it doesn't work anyway. Yes, that makes sense! Sometimes people just see what they want to see.



The fact is that there are tour guides, but they are not armed. I'll eat my hat if anyone can post proof of "armed minders".



The North Korean football team played in the World Cup this year. One of their players was born in Japan and plays for a club there. He told his team mates all about the luxuries he enjoys in Japan. Are all those other North Korean players in danger now?

Then again, they might be. Most media outlets were convinced that all the players were going to be shot after losing all their games, and when the media say it, it's true! If all the players turn up alive for their next games, what explanation will they have? Maybe it will be that the cursed Stalinists have invented technology to bring them back from the death as loyal footballing zombies.



So where are their weapons? You said there were "armed minders". In fact, the only point where the word "armed" appeared in the text is where the guy says that nobody in Panmunjom was armed, not even the soldiers.

It seems that this guy regarded the guides as "the Minders" from the start. Just using a word a lot does not make it true. Some people on Revleft like to change people's names when quoting them; for instance, I could start quoting someone as "Dickhead" from now on. That does not automatically make this person a dickhead.

The American guy picked fights with them, it seems. He is proud that he "shut them up" at one point and he's convinced that all Koreans who get in touch with tourists will eventually be sent to "the Camps" for "cultural contamination". There are plenty of reports where people got along just fine with those guides, by the way, and they corresponded afterwards. But I guess that's just teh evil regime!1!1 writing fake letters; the Minders are already in camps for talking to Americans! :rolleyes:

When I first posted I thought it said the minders were armed. I apologize for ONLY that. Minders are what the evil bourgeois conspiracy media calls them!!!11! :rolleyes: that's probably why he used that term...

UNLESS THEY WERE ACTUALLY MINDERS. :eek:

Anyway, if "picking fights" to you means to politely tell someone to stop going on and on about Dear Leader because it's rather annoying, or to engage in honest debates about a country then you obviously are way too sensitive to be on the Internet. I'm looking straight at the passage you misquoted. What he said was that the DPRK is willing to tolerate tourists for monetary purposes, even though they could disrupt the cultural/political legend of life on the outside. The "Camps" were just him being licentious, which should be obvious to any intelligent person.

[scarletghoul]

The "armed minders" thing is a key point- its a perfect example of the assumptions people like you make without thinking, assumptions which turn out to be completely groundless fiction. A culture of baseless anti-DPRK bullshit is encouraged in the west (the most common example being the racist presumption that Kim is somehow insane) and too many on the Left go along with it. This bullshit is often unthinkingly passed on as truth, which spreads the fictitious image that exists of the DPRK. In fact there is a world of difference between a guided tour and a whole city being shut down so that some tourists can be marched through at gunpoint. The latter narrative, though obviously false, is what passes for truth in the anti-DPRK climate. There is nothing I hate more than slanderous rumours that get spread around and ruin peoples lives, it is a form of bullying and it really saddens me to see fellow socialists complicit in it, especially when its in the context of international class struggle and imperialism.

[Wanted Man]

When I first posted I thought it said the minders were armed. I apologize for ONLY that.

You didn't "think" it, you said it with absolute certainty, as an objective fact. You said:


those tours are guided by armed guards called "minders"

Considering that the word "armed" only appears once in the text to say that not even the soldiers were armed, how could you possibly get this idea? The fact is that some people like to tell the truth, while others like to be "licentious", but we'll get back to that.


Minders are what the evil bourgeois conspiracy media calls them!!!11! :rolleyes: that's probably why he used that term...

UNLESS THEY WERE ACTUALLY MINDERS. :eek:

Well, as the quote above shows, you said that they are "called minders". By whom? By you, the guy in the report, and probably many others, but definitely not by the DPRK, by the "Minders" themselves, by other tourists, etc. You always have a choice of words to use. "Guides" is neutral and more accurate in this case, while "Minders" has obvious negative connotations, so your own expectations and experiences determine which word you use.

So anyway, let's just say that other people have completely different experiences with these guides/"Minders", for instance here (http://home.hccnet.nl/fp.grootveld/10000095830ac9001/index.html) and here (http://www.enlight.ru/camera/dprk/index_e.html).

Are their experiences somehow worth less, because they don't reach the same conclusions as the one you cited? If so, the only reason that you say there are "(armed) minders" is because you want them to be there.


Anyway, if "picking fights" to you means to politely tell someone to stop going on and on about Dear Leader because it's rather annoying, or to engage in honest debates about a country then you obviously are way too sensitive to be on the Internet.

Well, I don't think those guides are going to be on the internet any time soon, so I'm sure they'll be fine. Obviously, neither of us were there, so we'll just have to take the report guy at his words. But personally, if two people worked 24/7 just to make my vacation comfortable, I would not get into "shouting matches" with them. I would disagree, sure, because there's a lot to disagree on, but I wouldn't try to shout them down and put them in their place with all my western "superiority". It sounds like a dick move and has little to do with "honest debates".

Also, I wonder how "honestly" the guy is interested in debating. We can also read in the report that he believes the DPRK should be attacked with tactical nukes, and at the end he links mostly to one-sided, hard-line anti-DPRK websites and authors. Sorry, but I don't think that places him in the position to have an "honest debate". He's just the other side of the coin of the sycophantic "Korean Friendship Association". Perhaps he could have an "honest debate" with them.


I'm looking straight at the passage you misquoted. What he said was that the DPRK is willing to tolerate tourists for monetary purposes, even though they could disrupt the cultural/political legend of life on the outside. The "Camps" were just him being licentious, which should be obvious to any intelligent person.

Well, that's an interesting theory. I did not know that the low amount of tourism to the DPRK brought in that much money. It also seems to imply that the Koreans are somehow so dumb and brainwashed that the government doesn't want them to get in touch with foreigners, but what makes him so sure? Everyone knows that the DPRK has a problem with the governments of the imperialist countries, but not with their people. Of course they want more contact, just not cultural imperialism.

Anyway, let's see what he said:


In fact, I wonder why the DPRK allows any tourists at all. By virtue of their clothes, money, cameras, ideas and attitudes they cannot help but show the locals that things are not as bad outside the DPRK as they have been told. But I suppose the DPRK Government just want the money and tolerate the cultural contamination which quite obviously occurs. After all what are a few more people to be send to the Camps.

Well, first of all, I don't know if "licentious" is the right word (look it up in a dictionary). You probably mean that he was using "poetic license". In this case, that's just a nice word for making shit up, just like you did with the "armed guards". Both with the "armed guards" and "the Camps", one has to wonder: if it's evidently false, why say it? Some people habitually embellish the facts or even lie, but why would you want to be like that?