Why do people....

[Crimson Commissar]

Why do many people in Capitalist society show complete support for racial, gender, etc equality, and yet completely ignore class equality? I've grown up in an age and a place in which racism and sexism are very taboo things, and yet no one seems to care that there are millions of people starving all across the world, both white, black, male and female. It seems like our society is becoming very tolerant towards new cultures and races, but doesn't care about the class inequality that is ruining our world. Why is that?

[Franz Fanonipants]

Well, I'd assume you think the world is becoming "very tolerant" towards new cultures and races and making sure women aren't chattel is because you're a misogynist and racist.

That said, in the Western Hemisphere its very hard to extricate race and gender from class issues, I imagine the same can be applied to Europe, but since you all are more ethnically homogeneous race-class analysis is hard for you.

[Crimson Commissar]

Well, I'd assume you think the world is becoming "very tolerant" towards new cultures and races because you're a misogynist and racist.

That said, in the Western Hemisphere its very hard to extricate race and gender from class issues, I imagine the same can be applied to Europe, but since you all are more ethnically homogeneous race-class analysis is hard for you.
What the hell? What did I say in my post that implied I was racist? Maybe in other areas there's a lot of racism, but where I live it's considered completely unacceptable to be racist, yet no one cares that there are working class people of ALL races who aren't being given equal treatment.

[Franz Fanonipants]

What the hell? What did I say in my post that implied I was racist? Maybe in other areas there's a lot of racism, but where I live it's considered completely unacceptable to be racist, yet no one cares that there are working class people of ALL races who aren't being given equal treatment.

You're a racist, dude. Your communicated abject terror/outrage at bullshit, liberal "acceptance" of other races and cultures kinda makes you out to be one. Maybe you ought to think a little harder about how you state things.

That said, if you aren't a racist it shouldn't be too hard to understand how analysis of racial issues/orders and class really isn't a seperate form of analysis.

[Crimson Commissar]

You're a racist, dude. Your communicated abject terror/outrage at bullshit, liberal "acceptance" of other races and cultures kinda makes you out to be one. Maybe you ought to think a little harder about how you state things.

That said, if you aren't a racist it shouldn't be too hard to understand how analysis of racial issues/orders and class really isn't a seperate form of analysis.
So you're saying there are no white people who are working class, or that they aren't oppressed "as much" as the non-white working class?

[Franz Fanonipants]

So you're saying there are no white people who are working class, or that they aren't oppressed "as much" as the non-white working class?

In the United States, white people have a degree of solidarity and unity afforded to them by their position in the United States' racial hierarchy (now, this isn't to say there's an easy up and down hierarchy here, but 80% of the time if you're white you've got an easier time, culturally, than anything else). Now, in poor whites it's obviously false, they're still poor whites BUT they are white. That gives John J. Poorwhite a level of power over Juanita la Web who's, say, a janitor at his factory job and is undocumented. If they get into a conflict, guess who'll have more class privilege to come to bear on Juanita? That's right, John.

Now, they're both proletarian, but when John calls ICE or threatens to call ICE on Juanita because he knows she's an "illegal" he shows off one form of power he has that isn't tied to class at all.

[Crimson Commissar]

In the United States, white people have a degree of solidarity and unity afforded to them by their position in the United States' racial hierarchy (now, this isn't to say there's an easy up and down hierarchy here, but 80% of the time if you're white you've got an easier time, culturally, than anything else). Now, in poor whites it's obviously false, they're still poor whites BUT they are white. That gives John J. Poorwhite a level of power over Juanita la Web who's, say, a janitor at his factory job and is undocumented. If they get into a conflict, guess who'll have more class privilege to come to bear on Juanita? That's right, John.

Now, they're both proletarian, but when John calls ICE or threatens to call ICE on Juanita because he knows she's an "illegal" he shows off one form of power he has that isn't tied to class at all.
I agree somewhat, but the fact still remains that they are both working class, and the Capitalist ruling class doesn't particularly care what race they are as long as they're able to exploit them. I suppose it mostly depends on where you live, I'm currently in London, and a lot of people around here are middle class or at least have enough money to live a decent life regardless of their race.

[Robocommie]

Draconid, you'll have to forgive Franz Fanonipants, he's trying to articulate something that's oftentimes overlooked in leftist circles and it's very frustrating that it is so overlooked. I don't agree with how he responded to you but he's not wrong entirely.

I wouldn't go so far to call you a racist, but what is important to consider is that the levels of tolerance in our world for racial and cultural differences are not really that advanced. It seems like you live in an area that's fairly progressive in that regard, however, I would ask you how much do you feel that that's genuine tolerance and how much of it is a liberal attitude towards paying lip service to tolerance?

The reason I ask this is because of precisely what Fanonipants is getting at, that race and class issues are actually intertwined.

[Franz Fanonipants]

I agree somewhat, but the fact still remains that they are both working class, and the Capitalist ruling class doesn't particularly care what race they are as long as they're able to exploit them. I suppose it mostly depends on where you live, I'm currently in London, and a lot of people around here are middle class or at least have enough money to live a decent life regardless of their race.

The thing is, in colonial and post-colonial societies race and class are inextricably tied.

[Crimson Commissar]

The thing is, in colonial and post-colonial societies race and class are inextricably tied.
True, but we must remember that there are people of the majority race in their country who are working class, and they must be treated as equally as a working class person of a minority race.

[Franz Fanonipants]

True, but we must remember that there are people of the majority race in their country who are working class, and they must be treated as equally as a working class person of a minority race.

Of course, the issue is how we create a true class consciousness that includes understanding that race and gender are also class conditions.

[Crimson Commissar]

Of course, the issue is how we create a true class consciousness that includes understanding that race and gender are also class conditions.
What I was trying to say in my original post, is that a lot of people in today's society will speak out against racism and sexism, but will fully support the capitalist regime they live in and completely ignore the oppression of working class people all over the world.

[Franz Fanonipants]

What I was trying to say in my original post, is that a lot of people in today's society will speak out against racism and sexism, but will fully support the capitalist regime they live in and completely ignore the oppression of working class people all over the world.

Better articulated.

I'd argue its precisely BECAUSE people have been taught to separate race and gender from class-based analysis.

[black magick hustla]

You're a racist, dude. Your communicated abject terror/outrage at bullshit, liberal "acceptance" of other races and cultures kinda makes you out to be one. Maybe you ought to think a little harder about how you state things.


Jesus man. You are one of those crazy brothers.

His observation is real. Democratic discourse has taken on the idea multiculturalism, and has dealt away with class analysis. Its all about tolerance and talking nice and seeing a classroom of beautiful multicolor children but nobody actually adresses the main issue - mainly class.

[Raúl Duke]

yet completely ignore class equality?

Actually, our society doesn't ignore "class equality" but it does ignore class inequality.

Many socialization institutions in our society ommit or subtly downplay class inequality so that people don't think about it often. Whenever the issue is brought up however, the media/etc employs such arguments that "they choose to be poor" because "they're not working hard enough" which are based on the concept that we live in a society where everyone has an equal opportunity to "make it" in life.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Jesus man. You are one of those crazy brothers.

The thing is, as I said, "multiculturalism" which is bullshit to begin with, only exists because people are stupid enough to believe that race can be separated from class. It serves the interests of capitalism (which is, let us remember, dependent on white supremacy) to state, "if you're black, you can do AAAAAAAAAAAANYTHING" ignoring material conditions for most black people.

So, for you all in that tiny little fringe leftcom camp to continue to argue that understanding race as a part of class analysis is somehow less valid basically just reinforces liberal ideas.

The key is to understand that class informs race informs class. If you cannot understand that, you are essentially furthering white supremacist dialog.

Call me a crazy brother or whatever, but I don't think that's a far-out position to have.

e. I have to wonder about people's class background when I see they can't make a connection between race and class. Even my Virginian redneck friends have a natural understanding of class enough to know that in the eyes of white capital they're the same as black folks.

[eclipse]

If you take a deeper look, though, there is equality only on paper. Women and people with a migration background don`t get paid the same amount of wages, even in the most developed western countries they have to fear much more harassment and violence, most leading positions are taken by white, christian men and so on.
All this kinds of opression fall in one another, if we fight them seperately we won`t get rid of any of them.

[Robocommie]

Many socialization institutions in our society ommit or subtly downplay class inequality so that people don't think about it often. Whenever the issue is brought up however, the media/etc employs such arguments that "they choose to be poor" because "they're not working hard enough" which are based on the concept that we live in a society where everyone has an equal opportunity to "make it" in life.

Racism plays into that, too. If so many black folks are poor, part of the dismissal of poverty becomes this idea that blacks are just culturally disinclined to hardwork, or they're culturally disinclined to education, or whatever other bullshit excuse which essentially blames the victim. And this even will feed back on class, again, because if you've already accepted that blacks are poor because they're lazy, it's enough to accept that everyone who's poor is like that.

In fact, I've seen this principle in the flesh. It's a common sentiment among a lot of middle class racists that there are white niggers and black niggers, and they're the problem. They see themselves as not racist, because they state that some black people - the Colin Powell types - aren't niggers. But there's whites who are just as bad because they're poor. Even Chris Rock, a black man, will reinforce this shit with the whole, "black people and niggers" routine he did, to roaring laughter from a largely African-American crowd.

In short, racism and classism really really do reinforce one another, in one big ugly network. The only way we can deal with all of it is to address all of it.

[Emile Armand]

The thing is, as I said, "multiculturalism" which is bullshit to begin with, only exists because people are stupid enough to believe that race can be separated from class. It serves the interests of capitalism (which is, let us remember, dependent on white supremacy) to state, "if you're black, you can do AAAAAAAAAAAANYTHING" ignoring material conditions for most black people.

So, for you all in that tiny little fringe leftcom camp to continue to argue that understanding race as a part of class analysis is somehow less valid basically just reinforces liberal ideas.

The key is to understand that class informs race informs class. If you cannot understand that, you are essentially furthering white supremacist dialog.

Call me a crazy brother or whatever, but I don't think that's a far-out position to have.

e. I have to wonder about people's class background when I see they can't make a connection between race and class. Even my Virginian redneck friends have a natural understanding of class enough to know that in the eyes of white capital they're the same as black folks.
I'd say you're a reverse racist. Also, I can't see how any leftist would ever say "multiculturalism is bullshit". Your entire post just cries out of "blame whitey" mentality.

[Franz Fanonipants]

gtfo liberal

[Evil Dead]

People ignore the Inequality within the class system because the people who are at the top of the Hierarchy are the ones with the power of influence over the masses.

And since their comfortable, nothing will change.

[Robocommie]

I'd say you're a reverse racist. Also, I can't see how any leftist would ever say "multiculturalism is bullshit". Your entire post just cries out of "blame whitey" mentality.

Reverse racist? Motherfucker are you for real?

[Franz Fanonipants]

Reverse racist? Motherfucker are you for real?

420 blame whitey erryday.

[Il Medico]

The comrade in the OP has a point, though not particularly well said. Class is vital in fighting against racism as is race in the question of class. When you agitate towards worker unity, you fight racism, breaking down divisions between workers white and black, gay or straight, so on and so forth, same when you fight against racism and the like in the context of class. However, that said, class is still the overlying factor, as it is a material division between people rather than a socially constructed one. The system of class perpetuates racism and fighting racism without addressing class does nothing to the goal of defeating it. Addressing the need for more of a focus on class is hardly racist.

[Franz Fanonipants]

I essentially agree.

The problem becomes when you dismiss the connection between the two factors.

[counterblast]

I'd say you're a reverse racist.

Reverse racism is a white supremacist myth.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I'd say you're a reverse racist. Also, I can't see how any leftist would ever say "multiculturalism is bullshit". Your entire post just cries out of "blame whitey" mentality.

I'd say that you're a liberal wrapped up in your comforting blanket of white anglo privilege. Oh, sleep well and don't let the bed bugs suck the blood from that heart... :rolleyes:

[Adi Shankara]

Is there "reverse racism"(I don't really like this term, racism is just racism) on a personal level? of course. there is discrimination on every basis in the personal sphere.

Is it institutionalized by the state? No. There is no conspiracy against white people. (although one could argue, that Irish people in Scotland are the victims of institutionalized racism--I hear about some nasty racial shit said at football games) We still control 90% of everything in this country.

however, It leads me to another question: it seems everyone wants a piece of the "I was discriminated against" pie. People who really are discriminated against don't seek out discrimination! Which is why I hate when people try to start creating new "oppressed" groups. Vegans are NOT downtrodden by the state. white people (with the exception of certain subgroups) are NOT oppressed. Atheists are NOT victims (and neither are christians, for that matter).

What is so appealing about being a victim? I'm white, I've had racism against me before on a personal level, and it hurt. I can't imagine what it's like to be black and live with that shit every day, so people need to stop jumping on the fucking bandwagon. people claiming victim status for bullshit only undermine the REAL struggle held by people who are born certain ways without choice, or can't change their situation or appearance for the life of them.
Whats next, do we need to have cuckold/footfetish liberation too? :confused:

the only groups I see that are discriminated against in the USA are ethnic minorities and sexual minorities, and muslims. that's the USA, but it may be different elsewhere.

[automattick]

Why do many people in Capitalist society show complete support for racial, gender, etc equality, and yet completely ignore class equality? I've grown up in an age and a place in which racism and sexism are very taboo things, and yet no one seems to care that there are millions of people starving all across the world, both white, black, male and female. It seems like our society is becoming very tolerant towards new cultures and races, but doesn't care about the class inequality that is ruining our world. Why is that?

Now that is a great question, something that I think many Marxists tend to overlook or take for granted. There is rich discussion over "national questions" and offering critical support to Third World anti-imperialist movements, but often the discussion focuses more on an entire people as labor. There's so much one can talk about, but I'll take a crack at your initial question.

I've been thinking about this a lot as well. I just finished reading Walter Benn Michaels's book The Trouble With Diversity, which outlines a very basic argument as to why capitalism (what he constantly refers to as the "neoliberals") embraces gender and racial equality (and all other sorts of non-class categories which have had a history of abuse or neglect) as opposed to class. While Michaels is not a Marxist, he does a decent job of bringing out a very Marxian point, that class--no race or gender--is a material reality, and because it is a material reality it is possible for it to overturn the entire existing order of perverse social relations. This is a rather mechanistic view of class, but it essentially holds true.

Respecting gender, race, etc. is important and I think since, as Marx once said, that since democracy is the road to socialism [sic], it is best that we do recognize the social problems of race and gender within the context of class. Easier said than done, while race is easier to connect to class (blacks in America were exploited for 500+ years; race is used to divide the working class) I think it is much harder to make that argument for say gender, not for women, but when it comes to homosexuals.

For women, they too have been subjected unwillingly to the division of labor which confines many to the house, raising kids, etc. Though more and more are now seeking jobs outside of the house these days (women are also the majority of the world's population, if I'm not mistaken). So they are also the largest gender of the global proletariat. Yet homosexuals, it seems, are more linked in with cultural and religious taboos than anything connected with class. They are often on the margins of society, existing within all races, religions, creeds and classes. The subject of the "gay question" has never, to my knowledge at least, been addressed with adequate attention.

Engels once made a rather famous quip that homosexuality was tantamount to bourgeois decadence. Unfortunately, his rather homophobic attitude is particularly strong among more reactionary and religious circles in the world today.

So I don't know, but I'm trying to figure all of this out myself these days...

[gorillafuck]

I'd say you're a reverse racist. Also, I can't see how any leftist would ever say "multiculturalism is bullshit". Your entire post just cries out of "blame whitey" mentality.
You're obviously not looking deep enough into her/his analysis then, because fanonipants is making complete sense when it comes to racism and classism reinforcing eachother.

[Crimson Commissar]

You're obviously not looking deep enough into her/his analysis then, because fanonipants is making complete sense when it comes to racism and classism reinforcing eachother.
But if we just fight against racism, then we're only helping the non-white working class. Just because someone is white, doesn't mean that they cannot be working class. Constantly going on about how "the evil whites oppress the poor defenceless blacks" will only further divide the lower classes. This is why something such as black power or anti-male feminism cannot work within socialism, it alienates a certain number of the working class and basically tells them that THEY are the oppressor, and not their Capitalist masters.

[Blackscare]

But if we just fight against racism, then we're only helping the non-white working class.


That might be why no one is advocating that. Why do you insist on making things up?