Contention over the source of PFLP's funding

[Lyev]

Can someone please shed some light on this? I read somewhere that a Swiss Nazi-sympathiser -- who funded them in the second world war -- regularly gives the PFLP funding. Now whilst I whole heartedly agree Palestine should be liberated, isn't it a bit awkward that the PFLP are getting funding from an anti-semite, rather than an anti-zionist? Also, two more questions, firstly are the PFLP Muslim socialists, or simply just plain Marxist-Leninist? And do they do any work apart from fighting (I assume this is mostly what they do), in the way of building houses, getting supplies to refugees etc.? Thanks for your answers comrades.

[Saorsa]

They organise trade unions, women's organisations, socialist discussion groups, protest rallies, negotiations between the various resistance factions etc

[Lyev]

Thanks chaps. And the source of their funding? Can anyone expand upon that?

[Coggeh]

They organise trade unions, women's organisations, socialist discussion groups, protest rallies, negotiations between the various resistance factions etc
They also organized suicide bombings on civilian towns forgot to mention that, They are also members of the PLO with Fatah which are a corrupt right wing anti worker party (to put it nicely).

[Saorsa]

Ah, the CWI. It must be all the prison guards in your ranks... you always take the jailer's side! To think you lot call yourselves communists :)

The PFLP has organised a wide variety of military actions against the Israeli settler occupiers. A comrade of mine involved with my party's solidarity campaign with the PFLP (selling t-shirts for fundraising to send them money) wrote this in response to another pro-imperialist 'leftist' raising similar issues to you.


Tactics have changed as the struggle has evolved in Palestine.

The Plane Hi-Jackings where an attempt to get the Palestinian Plight onto the world stage, or as Leila Khaled stated "Blow the wax out of the ears of the deaf western liberals". The tactic was a success and it must be remembered that they did not harm anyone during the Hi-Jackings, passengers where taken of the planes and they were then blown up. In the early Seventies this tactic ceased to be used as its purpose was no longer valid according to George Habash, founder and General Secretary of the PFLP up until the year 2000.

The PFLP Leadership has always stated that Suicide Bombing is not a tactic that should be used, this is documented by organisations like the International Red Cross and Amnesty International. That is not to say that younger members during the two Intifadas didn't do this, but again this was specific to the period in which it occured. The initifada, a massive uprising of Palestinian Society against years of oppression at the hands of Israel and its Imperialist backers and a lack of any international action. This manifested in children throwing stones at tanks and the Israeli military, mass demonstations thoughout the Opt, strikes, civil disobedience and the continuation of the armed struggle. The PFLP takes part in all forms of Resistance including union organising, peaceful resistance to the wall, political resistance via elections and they maintain an armed wing, the Abu Ali Mustafa brigades. Named after their General Secretary who was killed when an Israeli gunship fired two rockets into his office in the West Bank. The killing of the Israeli tourism minister Rehavam Ze’evi was a reponse to this assisnation. In particular the PFLP targetted Ze’evi due to his overtly extreme attitude towards Palestinians.

Ze'evi publicly advocated the population transfer of 3.3 million Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza to Arab nations. According to Ze'evi, this could be accomplished by making the lives of Palestinians so miserable they would relocate, by use of military force during wartime, or through an agreement with Arab nations. After the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait in 1990, Ze'evi advocated the expulsion of Palestinians to the east side of the Jordan River, where they could serve as a human shield should the Iraqi Army seek to attack Israel. In a radio interview in July, 2001, Ze'evi claimed that 180,000 Palestinians worked and lived illegally in Israel, then referred to them as "a cancer" and said that "We should get rid of the ones who are not Israeli citizens the same way you get rid of lice"

In the book Palestine and the Palestinians, a political and social history of Palestine, it states; “in one sense, the PFLP and its leader, Habash, have been the ‘conscience’ of the Palestinian Liberation movement” George Habash, the founder of the PFLP, believed that high ethical and political standards should inspire any political and military action, and in the late 70's it was decided that it should be against Israeli military targets.The fact is that the PFLP are a legitimate political organisation who received approx 40,000 votes in 2006 making them the third largest party behind Fatah and HAMAS. The PFLP holds 50 seats on city councils and is the largest party in the governing city of Ramallah. Currently the PFLP also holds the mayors office in Bethlehem. Since the 1980’s the PFLP has been active in building popular organisations in the fields of health, women’s rights, agriculture and the workers union movement.

We are now over 10 years into a supposed "Peace Process", that is Orwellian in nature as it is peace as defined by America and Israel. The fact is that not one of the crucial issues such as Jerusalem, the Settlements, Water and Resource access, self determination and the right of return for Palestinian refugees has been addressed or ever looks like be addressed. The "Peace Process" is only a means to legitimise Israeli domination, and strengthen American strategic realtionships which secure its access to crucial resources and markets.
In the PFLP’s 6th conference document released in July 2000 it describes the OSLO Peace Process as a, “policy (that) is applying the philosophy of power as a basis for international relations. The foundation of this philosophy is the right of the triumphant to dictate his conditions on the defeated.”

Should the PFLP and the Palestinian people wait for the U.N, the United States, Israel and the international community to do something? As Israel, the Zionist State, continues to attempt to expel Palestinians as it has a biblical right to the ancient kingdoms of Judea and Samaria, from the "Jordan to the Sea". As it creates a racist state that treats its Arab citizens as second class citizens. I think not.


A lot of people "Support Palestinian Self Determination", but interestingly only when Palestinians act in a way that they think is appropriate.


The campaign challenges this contemptous and contradictory position.

[Lyev]

Ah, the CWI. It must be all the prison guards in your ranks... you always take the jailer's side! To think you lot call yourselves communists :)I'm failing to see a link between the objectivity of Coggeh's post and his role in the CWI. What do "prison guards" have to do with acknowledgment of the PFLP's use of bombing? You don't have to use every thread possible to smear the CWI you know.


The PFLP has organised a wide variety of military actions against the Israeli settler occupiers. A comrade of mine involved with my party's solidarity campaign with the PFLP (selling t-shirts for fundraising to send them money) wrote this in response to another pro-imperialist 'leftist' raising similar issues to you.And I can acknoweldge the good work in the unions, with schools, hospitals, campaigning for women's rights etc. that the PFLP do, but you seem to be side-stepping the question; are they funded by a Nazi; ex-Nazi; Nazi-sympathiser? What are your thoughts on the subject if they are?

[Crux]

Ah, the CWI. It must be all the prison guards in your ranks... you always take the jailer's side! To think you lot call yourselves communists :)

The PFLP has organised a wide variety of military actions against the Israeli settler occupiers. A comrade of mine involved with my party's solidarity campaign with the PFLP (selling t-shirts for fundraising to send them money) wrote this in response to another pro-imperialist 'leftist' raising similar issues to you.
That's a nice little strawman you got there, comrade. As for the plane hijackings, those were always with nonlethal intent. that does not take away the problems terrorism as tactics. As for the swiss nazi conncetion, it's quite possible, the connection between arab nationalist groups and, some, Nazi supporters is documented. I think the PFLP founding statement is pretty good, but i am doubtfull they are the way forward for the palestinian resistance. Trying to end the palestinian civil war is good, providing an actual alternative to Fatah and Hamas is better. Roight now PFLP seems to msotly be inbetween here.

[bricolage]

A lot of people "Support Palestinian Self Determination", but interestingly only when Palestinians act in a way that they think is appropriate.

They why isn't your party selling t shirts to raise money for Hamas? If you are supporting 'Palestinian Self Determination' regardless of whether 'Palestinians act in a way that they think is appropriate' surely you should be giving money to the largest and strongest group fighting for this 'Self Determination'? While you may support the totality of Palestinian resistance in terms of statements and slogans by deliberately singling out one group (that which is closest to your views) as worthy of financial funding (something far more concrete than statements and slogans) you are surely placing one mode and ideology of resistance above others, in this way I can't see how you aren't favouring Palestinians you think act in a more 'appropriate' way than others.

[Saorsa]

Because we want the revolutionary communist organisation of the Palestinian people to succeed, and it needs us more than Hamas does. Hamas receives funding from reactionary Arab regimes around the Middle East... the PFLP doesn't. Of course we're going to raise money for the PFLP over Hamas.

The difference between us and other groups is that we don't condemn the resistance. Unlike the pro-imperialist prison guards international that calls itself the CWI, and unlike the various ultra-left and anarchist groups, we support the right of Palestinians to determine how they wage their struggle against the occupation, and we don't raise utopian demands for them to unite with the people ethnically cleansing them. We don't condemn any resistance group, including Hamas. But yes, we do want to see the PFLP grow in size or strength. We don't tell any group what tactics they should or shouldn't use as a criteria for us supporting them. That's not our call to make.

Our campaign is internationalism in action, internationalism in concrete deeds rather than empty rhetoric.

[Crux]

Because we want the revolutionary communist organisation of the Palestinian people to succeed, and it needs us more than Hamas does. Hamas receives funding from reactionary Arab regimes around the Middle East... the PFLP doesn't. Of course we're going to raise money for the PFLP over Hamas.

The difference between us and other groups is that we don't condemn the resistance. Unlike the pro-imperialist prison guards international that calls itself the CWI, and unlike the various ultra-left and anarchist groups, we support the right of Palestinians to determine how they wage their struggle against the occupation, and we don't raise utopian demands for them to unite with the people ethnically cleansing them. We don't condemn any resistance group, including Hamas. But yes, we do want to see the PFLP grow in size or strength. We don't tell any group what tactics they should or shouldn't use as a criteria for us supporting them. That's not our call to make.

Our campaign is internationalism in action, internationalism in concrete deeds rather than empty rhetoric.
"pro-imperialist prison guard international"? yeah that does not make you seem absurdly secterian at all. As for internationalism in practice, the CWI is an international organization, meaning we help, support and advice all our member groups. And as for Palestine specifically well, we have a group in Lebanon, who are forced to work underground because of threats from reactionary organizations and the fact that our section is illegal by law since we have a section in Israel. Which is utte rhypocrisy of course considering how the libanese government treats palestinian refugees, which by the way is a struggle we actively take part in, since you mentioned active solidarity. I like the WPNZ but maybe someone member of an 80-something ideological mishmash of a group in New Zealand isn't one to school us about internationalism, comrade.

And nice try at weaseling out there. You know full well that support or semi-support of Hamas is far more common among the mainstream left, and that would pretty much be the consequence of your argument, but you try to dodge that by talking about "prison guard pro-imperilaist" figments of your imagination.

[Crux]

And for that matter do you think PFLP spontanously grew out of the nationalcharacter of palestinians or something, since you deem it to be the "communsit organization fo the palestinian people"? Let me enlighten you, it was created, and largely from abroad even, by palestinain exiles, just like many of the resistance groups in palestine. Shouldn't your line be, since they were exiles, and many remained so for many years, they shouldn't have the right to tell palestinians in the occupied territories their political line?

[bricolage]

Because we want the revolutionary communist organisation of the Palestinian people to succeed,

So you do pick sides in intra-resistance issues.
My point being if your sole concern was 'Palestinian Self Determination' you would place that above everything else, seeing as Hamas, the largest group is probably best placed to deliver that you would give them money, despite how much money they may or may not be getting.
Seeing as you want what you perceive to be a 'revolutionary communist organisation' to succeed it is arguably the case that you are not as unreservably committed to 'Self Determination' as you claim.

I'm not trying to attack you and your party I just think it is disingenous to present yourselves as unconditionally supportive of Palestinian resistance whatever shape, and under whatever ideals, it may take.


The difference between us and other groups is that we don't condemn the resistance.I don't think that is a difference at all. Most leftist groups take the same line as you (minus the focus of PFLP).

[bricolage]

We don't tell any group what tactics they should or shouldn't use as a criteria for us supporting them.

Just as an additional point, from my experience most criticisms of various groups operating under the banner of Palestinian resistance are of the principles and ideologies of such groups and not tactics. In terms of tactics I've more often heard criticism of 'internal' tactics (eg. strike breaking) than 'external' ones (eg. suicide bombings). Of course this doesn't apply to world leaders, mainstream political parties, mass media etc.

[bricolage]

Barabas and cw majovski.please read the previous thread called culture and resistance.an article that relates to things you said.

Yes I just gave it a read, I thought it was interesting and points such as "In Gaza, Palestine, while the media speaks endlessly of rockets and Israeli security, and debates who is really responsible for holding Palestinians in the strip hostage, no heed is paid to the little children living in tents by the ruins of homes they lost in the latest Israeli onslaught" are well put.
However I think this misses the point that I was trying to argue that, for the sake of simplicity, on this forum most criticisms of Palestinian groups are based on their ideology and principles not their tactics or use of violence. I think the emphasis on the latter more comes from those that offer 'unconditional' 'support', eager to paint everyone who disagrees with them as a pacifist, thus apparently cutting down to size their revolutionary credentials.

[Saorsa]

So you do pick sides in intra-resistance issues.

Sure we do. But we don't take the approach that all sides are wrong, and they just need to adopt our programme (developed overseas) if they want to move ahead. We looked at the situation, saw there was a strong revolutionary resistance organisation in the form of the PFLP, and following communication with it developed a campaign of solidarity. This both helps the PFLP and raises important questions to fellow New Zealanders.


My point being if your sole concern was 'Palestinian Self Determination' you would place that above everything else, seeing as Hamas, the largest group is probably best placed to deliver that you would give them money, despite how much money they may or may not be getting.

You're building a strawman here.

I don't condemn Hamas for shooting rockets at the Zionists, but I also don't support organisations of its nature. I support the revolutionary struggle in all countries, and in Palestine the revolutionary communist movement is best represented by the PFLP.


[QUOTE]Seeing as you want what you perceive to be a 'revolutionary communist organisation' to succeed it is arguably the case that you are not as unreservably committed to 'Self Determination' as you claim.

I'm not trying to attack you and your party I just think it is disingenous to present yourselves as unconditionally supportive of Palestinian resistance whatever shape, and under whatever ideals, it may take.

We don't present ourselves that way at all. The point my comrade was making is that many 'leftists' will say they support the Palestinians right to resist, but aren't prepared to support any of the Palestinian resistance organisations. Instead these 'leftists' argue the Palestinians should join tiny Trotskyist sects uninvolved in the resistance, or create such groups from scratch.

We don't do that. We've choses to build solidarity with the PFLP, but we don't send them polemical letters trying to tell them what to do. And we have no communication with Hamas, so talk of us 'supporting' them or not is just intellectual wankery. Some groups may like to build imaginary military blocs with overseas armed organisations, but the WP doesn't get into that sort of thing.


I don't think that is a difference at all. Most leftist groups take the same line as you (minus the focus of PFLP).

As I've explained, our line is quite different to most other leftist groups.

[Devrim]

As I've explained, our line is quite different to most other leftist groups.

It seems pretty similar to me.

Devrim

[bricolage]

You're building a strawman here.

We don't present ourselves that way at all.I don't think so, based on that statement you posted you position yourselves as in favour of 'Palestinian Self Determination' but nothing else (eg. communism, workers control, revolution etc etc). From that I don't think it is unfair to say you place such 'Self Determination' as the primary end goal.


The point my comrade was making is that many 'leftists' will say they support the Palestinians right to resist, but aren't prepared to support any of the Palestinian resistance organisations.I think this is a fair point but I also think it is fair to draw a distinction between a 'right to resist' (which is itself an abstract thing, as are all 'rights') and specific support for organisations.


As I've explained, our line is quite different to most other leftist groups.I agree with Devrim, I'm not sure how it is, it certainly has much in common with most leftist groups I have encountered in the UK.

[Devrim]

As I've explained, our line is quite different to most other leftist groups.

I agree with Devrim, I'm not sure how it is, it certainly has much in common with most leftist groups I have encountered in the UK.

Yes, support for the Palestinian national movement. It is the position of the vast majority of left groups, and incidentally also fascist groups in Turkey too.

Devrim

[gorillafuck]

Yes, support for the Palestinian national movement. It is the position of the vast majority of left groups, and incidentally also fascist groups in Turkey too.

Devrim
I don't think comparing the position of Turkish fascists to left groups is really a good criticism, the BNP oppose the war in Afghanistan but that doesn't mean it is a bad position for socialists to hold. Same how having the same view on one topic as turkish fascists doesn't necessarily make it a bad view to hold (even if it is).

[Barry Lyndon]

I don't think comparing the position of Turkish fascists to left groups is really a good criticism, the BNP oppose the war in Afghanistan but that doesn't mean it is a bad position for socialists to hold. Same how having the same view on one topic as turkish fascists doesn't necessarily make it a bad view to hold (even if it is).

I could just as easily say that Devrim's non-stop demonization of Palestinian national liberation groups is exactly what the American right/liberals/Zionists do, as well as his characterization of Maoists or Bolivarianism as 'anti-working class'.

[Devrim]

I don't think comparing the position of Turkish fascists to left groups is really a good criticism, the BNP oppose the war in Afghanistan but that doesn't mean it is a bad position for socialists to hold. Same how having the same view on one topic as turkish fascists doesn't necessarily make it a bad view to hold (even if it is).

No, it isn't a criticism. I just mentioned it off-hand. Of course virtually every political faction in Turkey supports Palestinian nationalism, from the Government to both ends of the bourgeois political spectrum.


I could just as easily say that Devrim's non-stop demonization of Palestinian national liberation groups is exactly what the American right/liberals/Zionists do, as well as his characterization of Maoists or Bolivarianism as 'anti-working class'.

I don't think that I 'demonise' them. I just think they are anti-working class nationalists. I don't think that you hear many 'right/liberals/Zionists' say that all nationalism is anti-working class, or that the problem with 'Bolivarianism' is the fact that it is capitalist and is launching attacks on workers living conditions.

Devrim

[gorillafuck]

I could just as easily say that Devrim's non-stop demonization of Palestinian national liberation groups is exactly what the American right/liberals/Zionists do, as well as his characterization of Maoists or Bolivarianism as 'anti-working class'.
Where did he demonize Palestinian national liberation groups?

[Barry Lyndon]

No, it isn't a criticism. I just mentioned it off-hand. Of course virtually every political faction in Turkey supports Palestinian nationalism, from the Government to both ends of the bourgeois political spectrum.



I don't think that I 'demonise' them. I just think they are anti-working class nationalists. I don't think that you hear many 'right/liberals/Zionists' say that all nationalism is anti-working class, or that the problem with 'Bolivarianism' is the fact that it is capitalist and is launching attacks on workers living conditions.

Devrim

Well, the right-wing opposition in Venezuela does not attack Bolivarianism on the grounds that it is 'capitalist'(if it was, they'd be just fine with it), but they certainly spread lies that it is increasing poverty, is wrecking living conditions and so forth, just like you are, even going so far as to fabricate statistics to show a poverty increase under Chavez. In fact, the living conditions of workers and poor has dramatically improved in Venezuela over the past decade. Attack it on other gounds, if you must, but not those.

And with regards to Palestinian nationalism, yes, liberals and so on may not attack it in the same terms that you do, but there is this constant equation of a struggle for liberation from colonialism(Palestinian nationalism), and a racist colonial project like Zionism. Your dogmatism and abstract dismissal of all nationalism leads you to say that both are equally wrong, totally distancing yourself from reality.

When ultra-lefts denounce Third World nationalism, this serves as a cover for their own nationalism- their belief that only the First World 'working class' can lead the Global South to liberation, since the latter can only fall under the infernal sway of 'petit-bourgeois' nationalists, 'Stalinists', Maoists, and the like.

[Devrim]

In fact, the living conditions of workers and poor has dramatically improved in Venezuela over the past decade. Attack it on other gounds, if you must, but not those.

Actually I think that living conditions for the poor have improved, though statistics that I have seen shows that the proportion of national wealth that goes to the poor has decreased. For the working class, I think that living conditions are worsening.


but there is this constant equation of a struggle for liberation from colonialism(Palestinian nationalism), and a racist colonial project like Zionism. Your dogmatism and abstract dismissal of all nationalism leads you to say that both are equally wrong, totally distancing yourself from reality.

I don't think that we equate them at all except to say they have nothing to offer the working class. It is not really a question of 'how wrong' either of them are.


When ultra-lefts denounce Third World nationalism, this serves as a cover for their own nationalism- their belief that only the First World 'working class' can lead the Global South to liberation, since the latter can only fall under the infernal sway of 'petit-bourgeois' nationalists, 'Stalinists', Maoists, and the like.

I don't think that we think that at all. We think that only the working class can liberate humanity, but we think that workers in countries such as India, and China have as important a role to play in this as workers in Germany, or the USA. In fact if you look at our English language site (http://en.internationalism.org/) at the moment, the second article on their is about a strike of half a million workers in Jammu and Kashmir.

I'm not sure what my 'own nationalism' is supposed to be (I am an Irish/Lebanese citizen), nor Leo's, the other regular poster here who is a member of the ICC, who is a Kurdish Turkish citizen, but it doesn't really fit in with what you are implying.

We don't just denounce 'third world nationalism'. We denounce all nationalism.

Devrim

[zimmerwald1915]

When ultra-lefts denounce Third World nationalism, this serves as a cover for their own nationalism- their belief that only the First World 'working class' can lead the Global South to liberation, since the latter can only fall under the infernal sway of 'petit-bourgeois' nationalists, 'Stalinists', Maoists, and the like.
I'm not really sure where you're getting this from. Left communists in fact call for the political liberation of the working class from bourgeois nationalists, Stalinists, Maoists, et al. We would not do so if the data before us did not convince us that such a thing is possible. You, on the other hand, are quite comfortable calling for united fronts with nationalists. If you want to criticize class collaborationism, then in the immortal words of Miss Garland, you need look no further than your own backyard.

Also, as Devrim said, we don't claim that any special divinely gifted 'right' of first world workers to "lead" anybody anyplace exists at all. We just don't really care for post-leftist fantasies of the working class' becoming objectively non-revolutionary. First world workers are just as objectively revolutionary, contain just as much potential, as third world workers, and vice versa. Nationalists have nothing to offer the working class anywhere.

[Conghaileach]

Can someone please shed some light on this? I read somewhere that a Swiss Nazi-sympathiser -- who funded them in the second world war -- regularly gives the PFLP funding.

I'm not sure where you heard this but I find it hard to believe. The PFLP is on both the US and EU list of "proscribed terrorist organisations" and while Switzerland isn't actually part of the EU it tends to adopt its positions and has went after people in the past for "funding terrorism".

[Conghaileach]

They also organized suicide bombings on civilian towns forgot to mention that,

How many suicide bombings have the organised?



They are also members of the PLO with Fatah which are a corrupt right wing anti worker party (to put it nicely).

That's a bit of an oversimplification. The PFLP has always had a fraught relationship with the PLO, and they still actively oppose the PLO's support for a "two-state solution" and have consistently argued that a single, secular, socialist state offers the only solution to the conflict. They also have generally good relationship with leftist and resistance movements inside and outside the PLO.