I don't entirely get it..

[Stephen Colbert]

Once communism is achieved people just work like they normally would and just dont get paid, but rather to help out the society and get satisfaction from their labor? That's a pretty tall order from the laziest nation on earth. :laugh:

Also, global solidarity? That's another freaking tall order from some of the sects that believe only when global, communism can be achieved

[DaComm]

I think you may be missing a paramount point of actually acheiving Communism. It's allowing the workers to engage in their work beyond twisting a wrench; they will be able to use their qualities (intelligence, creativity, better judgement, etc. etc. etc.) in their labor. This will be the driving froce behind labor in Communism; that peopl will want, nay, LOVE to perform labor because they view it as fun and a means of extending their personal talents interests and skills. Not to mention people will take happiness in the fact that they contribute the happiness and survival of others. Elaborate on the laziness of the US population. Laziness is a term interchangable with idleness/inactivity, thus implicating US people do not perform labor. US citizens do perform labor...I'm not sure where laziness comes in. Elaborate.

[Burn A Flag]

Once communism is achieved people just work like they normally would and just dont get paid, but rather to help out the society and get satisfaction from their labor? That's a pretty tall order from the laziest nation on earth. :laugh:


Work gives satisfaction. Especially when people work for themselves and society rather than the capitalist. Basically, people will want to work more in a communist society. Also, the work they do will be more dignified than capitalist labor.

[A.R.Amistad]

Once communism is achieved people just work like they normally would and just dont get paid, but rather to help out the society and get satisfaction from their labor? That's a pretty tall order from the laziest nation on earth. :laugh:

I think you should look into the Marxist theory of Alienation. Basically, humans like to do work(or at least they have the capacity to, I'm not implying a "human nature" here). One such example of this biologically is that when one does physical work, such as exercise or heavy lifting, the brain releases endorphins, essentially making your mood happier. Still, it could be argued that the human's highest level of achievement is as an artisan. Artisans take real pride in their work. They aren't driven by profit, they are driven by a passion, an idea, and produce simply for the satisfaction of aesthetic appeal (and in some cases survival, such as planting or butchering food). Communism, in its highest stage, is supposed to be a point in human history where the human being is no longer alienated from their labor and is actually passionate about their labor. If anyone is a janitor, its not because they have to be but because they have a passion for keeping things tidy. if someone wants to be a cook it won't be just to pay the bills, it'll be because they want to be a great Chef. People's motivation for doing labor will be the passion of an artist. However altruistic or egotistical that is will be irrelevant. Hope that helps...

[Stephen Colbert]

Ok great thanks for the clarification.

The thing about laziness was basically about once Communism is achieved people will not need to work but still recieve the benefits of others autonomized labor-- food, clothing etc.

[A.R.Amistad]

Ok great thanks for the clarification.

The thing about laziness was basically about once Communism is achieved people will not need to work but still recieve the benefits of others autonomized labor-- food, clothing etc.

The means for producing goods and services for our basic needs will be expropriated from the previous capitalist method, but will be put into the hands of the workers. Satisfying basic needs won't be a problem, s it hasn't really been ever since the agricultural revolution and surplus value.

[infraxotl]

There will always be worthless individuals that want to cost through life without contributing a thing, but the social ramifications of being such a loser would drive many of them to work.


If anyone is a janitor, its not because they have to be but because they have a passion for keeping things tidy.

Are you serious?

[Burn A Flag]

There will always be worthless individuals that want to cost through life without contributing a thing, but the social ramifications of being such a loser would drive many of them to work.



Are you serious?

Or maybe there would be no need to have a career janitor, because everyone could clean up after themselves or share the cleaning work.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Or maybe there would be no need to have a career janitor, because everyone could clean up after themselves or share the cleaning work.
This. I'm always stunned by the question "If you can be a janitor and get the same as the doctor why would you even need to work."
Which always makes me think "Why can't you just clean up your god damn messes doctors."

[A.R.Amistad]

Are you serious?

trying to make a point about alienation, relax

[Zanthorus]

I think you should look into the Marxist theory of Alienation.

I don't see how exactly this is relevant. The theory of alienation that Marx develops is not a psychologistic theory but a theory about the material alienation of human productive forces. The worker expends her labour-power under the guidance of the capitalist in order to satisfy her own needs but the surplus labour she is compelled to perform enriches the capitalist and expands her capital. At the same time the worker consumes her means of subsistence and is economically compelled back to the capitalist to work again and increase the size of her employers capital further. The product of the workers labour appears to her as something alien, capital.

[ZeroNowhere]

You may be interested in this page (http://www.deleonism.org/v.htm) on labour credits.

[DaComm]

I don't see how exactly this is relevant. The theory of alienation that Marx develops is not a psychologistic theory but a theory about the material alienation of human productive forces. The worker expends her labour-power under the guidance of the capitalist in order to satisfy her own needs but the surplus labour she is compelled to perform enriches the capitalist and expands her capital. At the same time the worker consumes her means of subsistence and is economically compelled back to the capitalist to work again and increase the size of her employers capital further. The product of the workers labour appears to her as something alien, capital.


It is indeed relevant, and what you stated above is not all that the theory of Alienation covers. The theory also proposes that in Capitalism people are forced to obtain an antagonistic and hostile view towards everyone else because everyone, regardless of class, is forced into a competition for hegemony (said competition produces pauperism from the losers of the competition. Marx also explained that workers in Capitalism are simply slaves of the Capitalist's commands and have no actual input in their labor outside of performing it; their work is external (alien) to the workers. Hence, because they cannot use any of their traits other than physical labor, they are estranged from self-actualizing. They cannot take satisfaction in their work/expand their interests in the work-place because the use of intelligence, better judgment, and creativity are constricted to the small group of the population that owns the Capital; the oppressors. The idea was that Capitalism denied the workers of a happy and fulfilling life, thus they were denied of humanity, and the goal of revolution is to create a world of worker hegemony where they are not alienated from their natural being as people.

THIS was what A.R.Amistad was driving at.

[Tifosi]

Basically, people will want to work more in a communist society.

Really? I think in a communist society people would want to work for a time that is suitably for them. People do enjoy working (when they have a job they enjoy in some way) but people only want to work when they want to, something Capitalism doesn't let them do. Working from 9 in the morning to 5 at night isn't enjoyable and I can't see people wanting to work longer hours than they already do.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Really? I think in a communist society people would want to work for a time that is suitably for them. People do enjoy working (when they have a job they enjoy in some way) but people only want to work when they want to, something Capitalism doesn't let them do. Working from 9 in the morning to 5 at night isn't enjoyable and I can't see people wanting to work longer hours than they already do.

If you are talking about "work" in the sense of a chore that we don't want to do, but needs to be done, then I agree with you there. I think one of the immediate things people would want to do after a revolution is cut their work hours and eliminate unnecessary jobs (thus freeing up more people to be able to divide up unpleasant jobs so that no one has to do them very much).

But I think the other comrade's point was that when "jobs" are essentially self-motivated, there won't be this artificial division between work-time and free-time. Do scientists or writers who currently feel passionate about their jobs feel the same way about putting extra hours in as someone who works a job for money who has to stay late? Workers now, think - hey there are better ways I could be spending my time than being stuck here for another hour - but if we are not forced to spend the majority of our days working just because it is necessary, then the work-time/free-time difference is gone.