Kim Il Sung's Sunny Smile Kept in Mind of Korean People

[China studen]

Kim Il Sung's Sunny Smile Kept in Mind of Korean People

Pyongyang, July 8 (KCNA) -- On the occasion of the anniversary of President Kim Il Sung's demise, July 8, the Korean people are recollecting his life devoted to the happiness of the people.

He defeated two imperialisms in one generation and built a powerful socialist state on ruins of war.

When visiting factories, he shook hands with workers and asked about their wishes and when visiting farms, he brightly smiled to see swaying rice ears.

Hearing the news that good hauls were made in the east sea, he sang a folk song about fishery.

When he inspected an army unit, he took a photo of a soldier and gave him three copies for his family, his company and his future wife.

After enjoying schoolchildren's New Year performance, he said that he felt ten years younger and danced with them.

Even in his last days he made on-the-spot guidance tour and signed a document concerning the country's reunification.

His field guidance tour reached all parts and places of the country, including the Chollima Steel Complex, Songjin Steel Complex, Kim Chaek Iron and Steel Complex and Februay 8 Vinalon Complex.

His bright smile is still encouraging the Korean people in their effort for the building of a great, prosperous and powerful nation.

http://www.kcckp.net/images/periodic/korea/2010/07/4-2-0.jpg

http://sankei.jp.msn.com/photos/world/korea/100708/kor1007082327005-p1.jpg

http://sankei.jp.msn.com/photos/world/korea/100708/kor1007082327005-p2.jpg

[Bright Banana Beard]

I missed you! Where you been?

[China studen]

I missed you! Where you been?

Ha ha, I usually visit the Chinese forum, very few come here.And I also find time to read.
In particular, the final exam now.
Recorded here every day I read the book and movie: http://www.douban.com/people/juche/

[scarletghoul]

Long live the Democratic Peoples' Republic of Korea.

[Nolan]

Yay revisionist state

[KC]

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b36/Nameless_Ensign/Kim-lump.jpg

[Barry Lyndon]

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b36/Nameless_Ensign/Kim-lump.jpg

???

[El Rojo]

and they call us commies mad...














why could that be?

[Wanted Man]

Depends on who "they" are.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

???

It's a picture showing the massive goiter growing on Kim Il Sung's neck that was hidden from all official pictures.

[Comrade Gwydion]

Is puking allowed outside of chitchat?
'cause this thread makes me want to.

[Kassad]

Yay revisionist state

Stunning analysis. Don't you Hoxhaists have a party to go to with all your Cliffite buddies?

[Fietsketting]

It's a picture showing the massive goiter growing on Kim Il Sung's neck that was hidden from all official pictures.

Now you mention it, looks huge.

[Gustav HK]

Stunning analysis. Don't you Hoxhaists have a party to go to with all your Cliffite buddies?

Oh, of course it is very socialist and marxist-leninist to create a crazy cult of personality around yourself, make the army the official ruling class, and proclaiming the Juche idea as something better than ML.

The WPK is proclaimed as "a party of the whole people" (read: a bourgeois party), and Juche is an ideology that advocates total loyality towards "the leader".

And they have also begun with some Dengist reforms such as Special Economic Zones and joint ventures.

[Ravachol]

Oh, of course it is very socialist and marxist-leninist to create a crazy cult of personality around yourself, make the army the official ruling class, and proclaiming the Juche idea as something better than ML.

The WPK is proclaimed as "a party of the whole people" (read: a bourgeois party), and Juche is an ideology that advocates total loyality towards "the leader".

And they have also begun with some Dengist reforms such as Special Economic Zones and joint ventures.

From the official DPRK website (http://www.korea-dpr.com/business.htm) (under the section 'Business') :rolleyes:



The DPR of Korea (North Korea) will become in the next years the most important hub for trading in North-East Asia.

- Lowest labour cost in Asia.

- Highly qualified, loyal and motivated personnel. Education, housing and health service is provided free to all citizens. As opposed to other Asian countries, worker's will not abandon their positions for higher salaries once they are trained.

- Lowest taxes scheme in Asia. Especially for high-tech factories. Typical tax exemption for the first two years.

- No middle agents. All business made directly with the government, state-owned companies. No middle agents.

- Stable. A government with solid security and very stable political system, without corruption.

- Full diplomatic relations with most EU members and rest of countries.

- New market. Many areas of business and exclusive distribution of products (sole-distribution).

- Transparant legal work. Legal procedures, intellectual rights, patents and warranties for investors settled.


Truly the face of 21st century communism u guyz!!!1!!shiftone :rolleyes:
Nobody in their right minds would call the DPRK communist or socialist.
Come on, this isn't even trolling anymore....

[Obs]

What I don't get is why some communists claim that the DPRK is socialist when the North Korean government itself has officially abandoned socialism.

[Kassad]

What I don't get is why some communists claim that the DPRK is socialist when the North Korean government itself has officially abandoned socialism.

Are you referring to the claim that the Korean government has stopped using the word "socialist" to describe their country? I've heard people claim that a lot, but after 16 seconds of scanning through the Korean Central News Agency, I find an article about Kim Il Sung that says...


He, with rare wisdom, distinguished leadership and noble virtues, conducted energetic activities throughout his life for the freedom and happiness of the people, the independence and prosperity of the nation, the victory of the socialist cause and the independence of humankind, thus making great exploits for the revolution and history.

Source: http://www.kcna.co.jp/item/2010/201007/news09/20100709-11ee.html

As for the unsubstantiated claim that Korea is "revisionist", or whatever dogmatic trash that anti-revisionists like to throw around, I always get a good laugh at the fact that the most liberal of Trotskyists (the Cliffite brand, such as the International Socialist Organization and the Socialist Workers Party, UK) actually agree with the most hardcore anti-revisionists (Hoxhaists) as to the classification of Korea, Cuba and China as "state capitalist." As unscientific as this analysis is, it's interesting that alleged communists can come out and bash North Korea and its leadership that is literally still rebuilding from the Korean War (which is ongoing, by the way) in the 50's. Despite sanctions, massive economic hardship and the destruction of almost the entire nation, the country has stood fast in its opposition to imperialism and its attempts at socialist construction.

As for the suggestion that Korea has given up on Marxism or whatever, the Workers Party of Korea has participated at the International Communist Seminar, an annual meeting of Marxist-Leninist parties from across the world in Brussels, for as long as I've read about it. Kim Il Sung, despite his flaws, is seen as an anti-imperialist leader and a person who led the oppressed people of Korea against the imperialist war machine as they struggled for a brighter future. It's no wonder he is so revered.

It's also really funny to read about people criticizing Korea for attempting to obtain some form of income for the country. Seeing as to the fact that much of the country is underdeveloped and decimated, is it outrageous that the Korean government attempt to develop its economy to sustain the country? Oh, I forgot. That doesn't fit into the ideal version of glorious communism that we all read about, so it's "revisionist."

And some of you call yourself communists.

If you're interested in reading about a firsthand account of an American who visited Korea filled with illusions as to how "oppressive" or whatever the country is, check this article from The Marxist-Leninist blog out: http://marxistleninist.wordpress.com/2010/04/01/american-trespasser-interviewed-in-north-korea/

The writer basically comes out and says that American propaganda towards Korea is completely false and without any real substance. Ironic, since most of the arguments from alleged Marxists come from the same vein!

[Ravachol]

Despite sanctions, massive economic hardship and the destruction of almost the entire nation, the country has stood fast in its opposition to imperialism and its attempts at socialist construction.




- Lowest labour cost in Asia.

- Highly qualified, loyal and motivated personnel. Education, housing and health service is provided free to all citizens. As opposed to other Asian countries, worker's will not abandon their positions for higher salaries once they are trained.

- New market. Many areas of business and exclusive distribution of products (sole-distribution).

- Transparant legal work. Legal procedures, intellectual rights, patents and warranties for investors settled.


Marx would've been proud! :rolleyes:



As for the suggestion that Korea has given up on Marxism or whatever, the Workers Party of Korea has participated at the International Communist Seminar, an annual meeting of Marxist-Leninist parties from across the world in Brussels, for as long as I've read about it.


This makes the DPRK socialist exactly how? If calling oneself socialist and going to a conference is enough to actually 'be' a socialist, we might as well abandon the whole project as a joke right away.



It's also really funny to read about people criticizing Korea for attempting to obtain some form of income for the country.


A form of income 'for the country' (the party officials, that is) by actually offering LOW PAID wage-labour (by very definition incompatible with the communist project) with guarantees of worker's not struggeling for higher wages? By presenting the DPRK as a source of cheap, unquestioning labour ready to be utilised by Capital and investors, upholding intellectual property rights and patents and markets along the way? Come on.... you can't honestly believe that yourself..



Seeing as to the fact that much of the country is underdeveloped and decimated, is it outrageous that the Korean government attempt to develop its economy to sustain the country?


The entire notion of 'development' along capitalist lines is anathema to the communist project. If the communist project is not capable of developing in opposition to Capital and has to resort to an autoritarian state which actually sells the wage labour (WAGE LABOUR FOR MARX' SAKE) to investors and businesses it is not communism at all and doesn't deserve to be maintained in that form.



Oh, I forgot. That doesn't fit into the ideal version of glorious communism that we all read about, so it's "revisionist."

And some of you call yourself communists.


While I don't want to get sectarian and I don't doubt you're a genuine communist at all, I find it amusing you strike out at people opposing a regime which offers cheap, unresisting wage labour with tax exemptions and guarantees of respecting intellectual property and patents to international business :rolleyes:

[Obs]

Are you referring to the claim that the Korean government has stopped using the word "socialist" to describe their country? I've heard people claim that a lot, but after 16 seconds of scanning through the Korean Central News Agency, I find an article about Kim Il Sung that says...



Source: http://www.kcna.co.jp/item/2010/201007/news09/20100709-11ee.html
Kim Il-Sung was a socialist, so obviously it makes sense to describe him as having fought for socialism, even if North Korea has abandoned it.


As unscientific as this analysis is, it's interesting that alleged communists can come out and bash North Korea and its leadership that is literally still rebuilding from the Korean War (which is ongoing, by the way) in the 50's. Despite sanctions, massive economic hardship and the destruction of almost the entire nation, the country has stood fast in its opposition to imperialism and its attempts at socialist construction. Opposition to imperialism, yes. Socialist construction, to a degree, but let's get back to that in a second.


As for the suggestion that Korea has given up on Marxism or whatever, the Workers Party of Korea has participated at the International Communist Seminar, an annual meeting of Marxist-Leninist parties from across the world in Brussels, for as long as I've read about it. Kim Il Sung, despite his flaws, is seen as an anti-imperialist leader and a person who led the oppressed people of Korea against the imperialist war machine as they struggled for a brighter future. It's no wonder he is so revered.
The Communist Party of Vietnam attends the ICS, too, so attendance there is hardly enough to qualify as being actual communists.


It's also really funny to read about people criticizing Korea for attempting to obtain some form of income for the country. Seeing as to the fact that much of the country is underdeveloped and decimated, is it outrageous that the Korean government attempt to develop its economy to sustain the country? Oh, I forgot. That doesn't fit into the ideal version of glorious communism that we all read about, so it's "revisionist."
Yeah, Dengism is revisionist. I'm sorry if you don't agree, but that's just how I see it.


If you're interested in reading about a firsthand account of an American who visited Korea filled with illusions as to how "oppressive" or whatever the country is, check this article from The Marxist-Leninist blog out: http://marxistleninist.wordpress.com/2010/04/01/american-trespasser-interviewed-in-north-korea/

The writer basically comes out and says that American propaganda towards Korea is completely false and without any real substance. Ironic, since most of the arguments from alleged Marxists come from the same vein!
Cool story bro, except the charge here isn't oppressiveness, but revisionism.

EDIT: That site also has an article praising the communist party of the PRC... I'm starting to think you might actually not consider Dengism revisionist.

[scarletghoul]

For fucks sake Obs, North Korea has not abandoned socialism. Look at all the official websites, the constitution, etc, they constantly mention Socialism. You are wrongggggg

[Obs]

Even if they haven't officially (admitting I dropped the ball on that one), they're clearly headed on a Dengist route, as Ravachol pointed out.

[Paulappaul]

If North Korea is Socialist Scarlet, then I no longer call myself a Socialist.

By using the very logic you're trying to use, we may as well call the Hitler a Socialist as he was a part of the Socialist Party.

There are no Socialist or Communist countries in existence, there never was.

[Obs]

By using the very logic you're trying to use, we may as well call the Hitler a Socialist as he was a part of the Socialist Party.
Please don't do this.

[Nolan]

If North Korea is Socialist Scarlet, then I no longer call myself a Socialist.

Right.


By using the very logic you're trying to use, we may as well call the Hitler a Socialist as he was a part of the Socialist Party.

Wrong.

[Weezer]

Stunning analysis. Don't you Hoxhaists have a party to go to with all your Cliffite buddies?

Are you denying Juche revisionism?

[Weezer]

For fucks sake Obs, North Korea has not abandoned socialism. Look at all the official websites, the constitution, etc, they constantly mention Socialism. You are wrongggggg

But they got rid of communism.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/29/world/asia/29korea.html

The Constitution also declared for the first time that North Korea “respects and protects” the “human rights” of its citizens, and expunged the term “communism” from its text.

I only defend North Korea against imperialism.

[scarletghoul]

Sure, you could consider them 'revisionist'. But they are still socialist as they have a collectively owned economy. Despite its shortcomings, we must support the DPRK fully against imperialism and as one of the few remaining socialist strongholds in the world.


Even if they haven't officially (admitting I dropped the ball on that one), they're clearly headed on a Dengist route, as Ravachol pointed out.
They're really not down the Dengist road yet. However yes, that is a real possibility if things get worse. But it's really impossible to tell right now. Apart from the crap currency reform, the planned economy has been doing well in recent years and I can't see them abandoning it any time soon.

But they got rid of communism.
Yes, and that is of course bad. However the goal of communism is an ideal, so it doesn't have a huge effect; as long as they insist on keeping socialism then the DPRK remains a good socialist country. Getting rid of Communism (only in the constitution; there is still a lot of communist spirit and such) is one of the many points which I don't like about the DPRK's ideology, but that doesn't mean I will stop defending its anti-imperialism and socialism.

[dutch master]

You people a fucking mindless drones. As if fucking removing a word from a piece of fucking paper has a god damn thing to do with whether or not the DPRK has a socialist economy or if the Korean Worker's Party is a good party.



Preamble


The Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a chuch'e-based socialist fatherland that embodies the idea and leadership of the great leader Comrade Kim Il Sung.

The great leader Comrade Kim Il Sung is the founder of the DPRK and the father of socialist Korea.

Comrade Kim Il Sung founded the immortal chuch'e idea, and by organizing and leading the anti-Japanese revolutionary struggle under its banner, established glorious revolutionary traditions and achieved the historic cause of the fatherland's liberation. He founded the DPRK on the basis of laying a solid foundation for building an independent and sovereign state in the fields of politics, economy, culture, and military.

Comrade Kim Il Sung reinforced and developed the Republic into a popular masses-centered socialist country and a socialist state of independence, self-support, and self-defense by putting forward a chuch'e-oriented revolutionary line and wisely leading various stages of the social revolution and construction work.

Comrade Kim Il Sung clarified the fundamental principles of state building and state activities; established the most superior state and social system, political method, and system and method of social management; and provided a firm foundation for achieving the wealth, power, and prosperity of the socialist fatherland and for succeeding to and completing the chuch'e revolutionary cause.

Comrade Kim Il Sung, regarding the idea of "Serving the people as heaven" as his motto, was always with the people, devoted his whole life to them, took care of and led the people with his noble politics of benevolence, and thus turned the whole society into one big, single-heartedly united family.

The great leader Comrade Kim Il Sung is the sun of the nation and the lodestar of the fatherland's reunification. Comrade Kim Il Sung set forth the country's reunification as the supreme task of the nation and devoted all his efforts and energies to its realization. While consolidating the Republic into a powerful and mighty fortress for the fatherland's reunification, Comrade Kim Il Sung presented fundamental principles and methods of the fatherland's reunification and developed the movement for the fatherland's reunification into a pan-national movement, and thus paved the road for accomplishing the cause of the fatherland's reunification with the united strength of the entire nation.

The great leader Comrade Kim Il Sung clarified the basic idea of the DPRK's foreign policy, expanded and developed the country's external relations with this as a basis, and enabled the Republic to highly display its international authority. Comrade Kim Il Sung, as a veteran statesman of the world, pioneered a new era of independence, engaged in energetic activities for the reinforcement and development of the socialist movement and the nonaligned movement, as well as for global peace and friendship among the peoples, and made an immortal contribution to mankind's cause of independence.

Comrade Kim Il Sung was a genius in ideology and theory and in the art of leadership, an ever-victorious, iron-willed brilliant commander, a great revolutionary and politician, and a great human being.

Comrade Kim Il Sung's great idea and achievements in leadership are the eternal treasures of the DPRK revolution and serve as a basic guarantee for the affluence and prosperity of the DPRK.

Under the leadership of the Workers Party of Korea [WPK], the DPRK and the Korean people will hold the great leader Comrade Kim Il Sung in high esteem as the eternal president of the Republic and complete the chuch'e revolutionary cause to the end by defending, carrying forward, and developing Comrade Kim Il Sung's idea and achievements.

The DPRK Socialist Constitution is the Kim Il Sung constitution, in which the great leader Comrade Kim Il Sung's chuch'e-oriented idea of state building and his achievements in state building have been made i nto law.

Chapter I. Politics

Article 1. The DPRK is an independent socialist state representing the interests of all the Korean people.

Article 2. The DPRK is a revolutionary state, which has inherited the brilliant traditions established in the glorious revolutionary struggle against the imperialist aggressors to achieve the fatherland's liberation and the freedom and happiness of the people.

Article 3. The DPRK considers the chuch'e idea and the military-first idea, which are person-centered worldviews and revolutionary ideas for achieving the independence of the popular masses, as the guiding principles of its activities.

Article 4. The sovereignty of the DPRK shall be vested in the working people, which include workers, farmers, soldiers, and working intellectuals. The working people shall exercise their sovereignty through their representative organs -- the Supreme People's Assembly [SPA] and the local people's assemblies at all levels.

Article 5. All state organs of the DPRK shall be organized and managed on the principle of democratic centralism.

Article 6. The organs of sovereignty at all levels, from the county people's assembly to the SPA, shall be elected on the principle of universal, equal, and direct suffrage by secret ballot.

Article 7. Deputies to the organs of sovereignty at all levels shall have close ties with their constituents and shall be accountable to them for their work. Constituents may recall a deputy they have elected at any given time in the event the latter loses confidence.

Article 8. The social system of the DPRK is a man-centered social system whereby the working popular masses are the masters of everything, and everything in society serves the working popular masses. The state shall safeguard the interests of, and respect and protect the human rights of the working people, including workers, farmers, soldiers, and working intellectuals, who have been freed from exploitation and oppression and have become the masters of the state and society.

Article 9. The DPRK shall struggle to achieve the complete victory of socialist by strengthening the people's regime in the northern half of Korea and by vigorously waging the three revolutions -- ideological, technological, and cultural -- to achieve the fatherland's reunification on the principle of independence, peaceful reunification, and grand national unity.

Article 10. The DPRK shall base itself on the political and ideological unity of all the people, based on the worker-farmer alliance led by the working class. The state shall revolutionize all members of the society and turn them into the working class by intensifying the ideological revolution, and shall turn the whole of society into a single collective united in comradeship.

Article 11. The DPRK shall carry out all its activities under the leadership of the WPK.

Article 12. The state shall adhere to the class line and strengthen the dictatorship of the people's democracy, and thus firmly protect the people's sovereignty and socialist system from the maneuvers for destruction by hostile elements at home and abroad.

Article 13. The state shall embody the mass line and implement in all work the Ch'o'ngsan-ri spirit and method, whereby the upper echelons assist the lower echelons, solutions to problems are sought among the masses, and the voluntary enthusiasm of the masses is aroused by giving priority to the political work, the work with people.

Article 14. The state shall vigorously carry out mass movements, including the Movement To Win the Three-Revolution Red Flag, and accelerate the socialist construction to the maximum.

Article 15. The DPRK shall protect the democratic national rights of Korean compatriots overseas and their legitimate rights and interests as recognized by international law.

Article 16. The DPRK shall guarantee the legitimate rights and interests of foreigners in its territory.

Article 17. Independence, peace, and friendship are the basic ideas of the DPRK's foreign policy and the principles of its external activities. The state shall establish diplomatic and political, economic, and cultural relations with all the countries that treat our country in a friendly manner, on the principles of complete equality and independence, mutual respect and noninterference in each other's internal affairs, and reciprocity. The state shall unite with the peoples of the world who espouse independence and shall actively support and encourage the struggle of the peoples of all countries to oppose all forms of aggression and interference in others' internal affairs and to achieve the sovereignty of their countries and national and class liberation.

Article 18. The laws of the DPRK are a reflection of the intents and interests of the working people and serve as a basic weapon in state administration. Respect for the law and its strict observation and execution is the duty of all organs, enterprises, organizations, and citizens. The state shall perfect the socialist legal system and strengthen the socialist law-abiding life.

Chapter II. Economy

Article 19. The DPRK shall base itself on the socialist production relations and the foundation of a self-supporting national economy.

Article 20. In the DPRK, the means of production are owned by the state and social cooperative organizations.

Article 21. The property of the state shall be the property of all the people. There shall be no limit to the property which the state can own. All the natural resources of the country, railways, air transportation, telecommunications and postal organs, as well as major factories, enterprises, ports, and banks, shall be owned solely by the state. The state shall protect and develop on a priority basis the property of the state, which plays a leading role in the economic development of the country.

Article 22. The property of social cooperative organizations shall be the collective property of the working people belonging to the organizations concerned. Such property as land, farm machinery, ships, small- and medium-sized factories, and enterprises may be owned by social cooperative organizations.

The state shall protect the property of social cooperative organizations.

Article 23. The state shall enhance the ideological consciousness and the technological and cultural standards of farmers; shall promote the leading role of the property owned by all of the people over cooperative property so as to organically combine the two forms of property; shall consolidate and develop the socialist cooperative economic system by improving the guidance and management of the cooperative economy; and shall gradually convert the property of cooperative organizations into the property owned by all of the people based on the voluntary will of all members of cooperative organizations.

Article 24. Private property is property for the personal and consumption purposes of citizens. Private property is comprised of the socialist distribution according to the results of labor and additional benefits of the state and society. The products of individual sideline activities, including those from garden plot farming, and the income derived from other legal economic activities shall also belong to private property. The state shall protect private property and guarantee the right to its inheritance by law.

Article 25. The DPRK shall regard it as the supreme principle of its activities to ceaselessly improve the material and cultural living standards of the people. The increasing material wealth of the society in our country, where taxes have been abolished, shall be used entirely to promote the welfare of the working people. The state shall provide all the working people with every condition for obtaining food, clothing, and housing.

Article 26 . The self-supporting national economy provided in the DPRK is a firm foundation for the happy socialist lives of the people and for the affluence and prosperity of the fatherland. The state shall adhere to the socialist line of building a self-supporting national economy and accelerate the chuch'e-orientation, modernization, and scientification of the people's economy to turn the people's economy into a highly advanced chuch'e-oriented economy, and shall struggle to build material and technological foundations befitting a completely socialist society.

Article 27. The technological revolution is a basic link for developing the socialist economy. The state shall carry out all economic activities by always giving top priority to technological development, accelerate scientific and technological development and the technological remodeling of the people's economy, and vigorously carry out the mass technological innovation movement, so as to free the working people from difficult and arduous labor and to narrow the differences between physical labor and mental labor.

Article 28. The state shall industrialize and modernize agriculture by accelerating the technological revolution in rural areas, and enhance the role of counties and strengthen its guidance and assistance to rural areas, in order to eliminate the differences between urban and rural areas and class distinctions between the working class and farmers. The state shall build, at its own expense, production facilities for cooperative farms and modern houses in rural areas.

Article 29. Socialism is built by the creative labor of the working masses. Labor in the DPRK is the independent and creative labor of the working people who have been freed from exploitation and oppression. The state shall make the labor of our working people, who do not experience unemployment, more joyful and worthwhile, so that they work with voluntary enthusiasm and initiative for the society, the collective, and themselves.

Article 30. The daily working hours of the working people shall be eight hours. The state shall shorten the daily working hours for certain labor, according to the level of difficulty and special conditions. The state shall ensure the full utilization of the working hours by organizing labor effectively and strengthening labor discipline.

Article 31. In the DPRK, citizens shall begin to work from the age of 16. The state shall prohibit the labor of children under the stipulated working age.

Article 32. In guiding and managing the socialist economy, the state shall firmly maintain the principle of correctly combining political guidance with economic and technological guidance, the unified guidance of the state with the initiative of each unit, unitary command with democracy, and political and moral incentives with material incentives.

Article 33. The state shall guide and manage the economy according to the Taean work system, a socialist form of economic management whereby the economy is managed and operated scientifically and rationally on the basis of the collective strength of the masses of producers, and according to the agricultural guidance system of guiding the rural economy with industrial methods. In managing the economy, the state shall implement an independent economic accounting system to meet the demands of the Taean work system, and ensure correct utilization of such economic levers as prime cost, price, and profitability.

Article 34. The people's economy of the DPRK is a planned economy. The state shall draw up and implement the plans for the development of the people's economy in accordance with the rules governing the development of a socialist economy, so as to maintain a correct balance of accumulation and consumption, accelerate economic construction, ceaselessly enhance the people's living standards, and strengthen national defense capabilities. The state shall ensure a high rate of growth in production and a balanced development of the people's economy by formulating unified and detailed plans.

Article 35. The DPRK shall compile and execute the state budget pursuant to the plans for the development of the people's economy. The state shall systematically increase its accumulation, and expand and develop socialist property by intensifying the struggle for increased production and conservation and by exercising strict financial control in all sectors.

Article 36. In the DPRK, foreign trade shall be undertaken by state organs, enterprises, and social cooperative organizations. The state shall develop foreign trade on the principles of complete equality and reciprocity.

Article 37. The state shall encourage joint ventures and business collaboration between the organs, enterprises, and organizations in our country and foreign corporations or individuals, as well as the establishment and operation of various forms of enterprises in special economic zones.

Article 38. The state shall implement a tariff policy to protect the self-supporting national economy.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Pyongyang sure is a very beautiful city. I love their implementation of various designs inspired by old Soviet ones.

[Ravachol]

You people a fucking mindless drones. As if fucking removing a word from a piece of fucking paper has a god damn thing to do with whether or not the DPRK has a socialist economy or if the Korean Worker's Party is a good party.

Yet they, according to themselves, sell the working class into wage slavery to business advertising the DPRK as a 'low labour cost investment opportunity' with workers who won't 'demand higher wages'. There is nothing socialist about that, on the contrary. Care to defend, from a communist perspective, the 'business' section on the DPRK's official website (you can't claim that's a source with an anti-DPRK bias)?

[Paulappaul]

If North Korea is Socialist Scarlet, then I no longer call myself a Socialist.

By using the very logic you're trying to use, we may as well call the Hitler a Socialist as he was a part of the Socialist Party.

There are no Socialist or Communist countries in existence, there never was.


Please don't do this.


No if Scarlet is going to wave the word of Socialism about in defense of dictators and murders, then I should I be able to as well.

[scarletghoul]

Yet they, according to themselves, sell the working class into wage slavery to business advertising the DPRK as a 'low labour cost investment opportunity' with workers who won't 'demand higher wages'. There is nothing socialist about that, on the contrary. Care to defend, from a communist perspective, the 'business' section on the DPRK's official website (you can't claim that's a source with an anti-DPRK bias)?
You're looking at this from the capitalist viewpoint, like "workers' power is the right to demand a higher wage".

[scarletghoul]

No if Scarlet is going to wave the word of Socialism about in defense of dictators and murders, then I should I be able to as well.
You would have a point, if Hitler had put the German economy under the collective ownership of the working class..

(this is of course leaving aside the "dictators and murderers" stuff which is such a vague allegation and could apply to any successful revolutionary movement)

[Obs]

You're looking at this from the capitalist viewpoint, like "workers' power is the right to demand a higher wage".
As opposed to the Juche viewpoint, which is apparently that "workers' power is settling for a low wage and not striking".

[Obs]

Sure, you could consider them 'revisionist'. But they are still socialist as they have a collectively owned economy. Despite its shortcomings, we must support the DPRK fully against imperialism and as one of the few remaining socialist strongholds in the world.
Supporting the Korean people and the Korean working class against imperialism does not necessarily equal supporting the WPK.

[Ravachol]

You're looking at this from the capitalist viewpoint, like "workers' power is the right to demand a higher wage".

No i'm not. Worker's power is full worker's control over the economy and the material wealth of society. You know what's NOT communism? Offering wage labour to capitalist business claiming it's THE LOWEST WAGES in Asia and Capital can be sure there will be no demands for higher wages cutting into their profit margins. True socialism right there :rolleyes:

Honestly how can you even defend this nonsense. The existence of wage labour, this wage labour being commodified and sold to capital with the claim it is packaged in a way that will make sure profit margins remain high and the opportunity for investors to extract maximum surplus value out of the korean working class...

[Revy]

His name "Kim Il-sung" means "become the sun" or some crap. That's not his real name. That's why they say he has a "sunny" smile. There is a book about Kim Il-sung called "The Eternal Sun of Mankind". The government is trying to make Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il gods and force people to obey this nonsense. I think people in North Korea only go along with it because they are afraid, not because they are brainwashed and actually believe it

[Obs]

His name "Kim Il-sung" means "become the sun" or some crap. That's not his real name. That's why they say he has a "sunny" smile. There is a book about Kim Il-sung called "The Eternal Sun of Mankind". The government is trying to make Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il gods and force people to obey this nonsense. I think people in North Korea only go along with it because they are afraid, not because they are brainwashed and actually believe it
Any source on this? 'Kim' is a pretty common Korean surname.

[Revy]

Any source on this? 'Kim' is a pretty common Korean surname.

I was referring to the "Il-sung" part of the name.

[Hiratsuka]

I'll take bourgeoisie republics over this great 'socialist' paradise, sunny smiles or not.

[Lyev]

You people a fucking mindless drones. As if fucking removing a word from a piece of fucking paper has a god damn thing to do with whether or not the DPRK has a socialist economy or if the Korean Worker's Party is a good party.It's not written by the people of North Korea at all though is it? It's written by a parasitic bureaucratic class that purports to represent the people. If Kim Jong-Il actually wanted to "build socialism", then he would have probably had some sort of direct democracy implemented, whereby the people of Korea can actually choose what they want. Do they want common ownership over the means of production, or do they prefer wage-labour and exploitation? And yet the DPRK hopelessly tries to implement socialism from above on behalf of the people of North Korea, without the consent of the working class, and the vast majority of the population.

[Hiratsuka]

Sure, you could consider them 'revisionist'. But they are still socialist as they have a collectively owned economy. Despite its shortcomings, we must support the DPRK fully against imperialism and as one of the few remaining socialist strongholds in the world.


No, we mustn't. If North Korea ended up like the South, it would be a much better service to the workers than this intellectualizing from afar about how we should keep the reactive bubble installed over North Koreans. It's rather pitiful that leftists will defend North Korea (anything is better than imperialism!) but complain because countries like the UK crack down on drugs. Priorities?




Pyongyang sure is a very beautiful city.



So was Rome.

[Paulappaul]

You would have a point, if Hitler had put the German economy under the collective ownership of the working class..

(this is of course leaving aside the "dictators and murderers" stuff which is such a vague allegation and could apply to any successful revolutionary movement)

If by Collective Ownership you mean a centrally planned economy from a Bureaucratic One party state with Nationalised means of the Production then yes I think Hitler did do something alot like that.

By Collective Ownership, Socialists mean to take the Means of the Production from the Capitalist Class and hand them to the workers. This is sometimes spoken in the name of Public Ownership, as in your case with the North Korean State, and sometimes in the name of Common Ownership.
There is a fundamental difference between the too.

Public ownership is the right of disposal by a representing body whether in the form of government, state or other political body. The people forming this body is leaders, secretaries, managers, etc. they are, under public ownership, the direct owners of the means of production. Not the working class. Public Ownership therefor, is not a means nor an ends of Socialism. It's changing one set of masters for another.

Common Ownership is the right of disposal by the Working class itself over it's respective means of Production and consequently over the very nature of their government. Common Ownership is therefor Socialistic as puts the Working Class at the charge of the Means of Production.

So no. North Korea is and never was Socialistic in the Marxist and Anarchist sense of the term. It's a mere recuperation of Socialist ideals.

[Chimurenga.]

No, we mustn't. If North Korea ended up like the South, it would be a much better service to the workers than this intellectualizing from afar about how we should keep the reactive bubble installed over North Koreans. It's rather pitiful that leftists will defend North Korea (anything is better than imperialism!) but complain because countries like the UK crack down on drugs. Priorities?

So, in other words, you have reactionary sympathies?

[Guerrilla22]

I knew revisionists were going to jump at the opportunity to slander the worker's state that is the DPRK.

[Weezer]

Sure, you could consider them 'revisionist'.

If you're so tolerant of revisionism, why do most Marxist-Leninists oppose Trotskyism?


I knew revisionists were going to jump at the opportunity to slander the worker's state that is the DPRK.

:lol:

[AK]

I can't believe the crap I'm reading here. "The North Korean means of production are collectively owned", "North Korea is a workers' state". You've got to be fucking kidding me. North Korean workers and peasants have as much say in the direction of the economy and the government of society as the working and peasant classes everywhere else in the world do: none at all.

[dutch master]

Yet they, according to themselves, sell the working class into wage slavery to business advertising the DPRK as a 'low labour cost investment opportunity' with workers who won't 'demand higher wages'. There is nothing socialist about that, on the contrary. Care to defend, from a communist perspective, the 'business' section on the DPRK's official website (you can't claim that's a source with an anti-DPRK bias)?

What the fuck does some trash-eating anarcho-white child know about socialism?

Defend from a communist perspective? That's perfectly easy, or do you think we don't read Lenin, know nothing of the NEP, etc? In a situation where Russia was devastated by civil war and foreign intervention, the Bolsheviks instituted policies that were temporary concessions in a difficult time. Pseudo-revolutionary rhetoric doesn't feed the people, clothe them, protect them from criminal elements, etc. They made difficult concessions to continue the rule of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat and to help their people. So has the DPRK.

People like Captain Cuba should be ashamed of themselves as well. The DPRK by far has the lowest rate of foreign investment in their economy, and thinks nothing of joining in with the pseudo-revolutionary trash on this forum and their masters at CNN, Fox, MSNBC, the White House, etc, in regurgitating the racist anti-DPRK catechism. Yet would Captain Cuba join them in denouncing the revolutionary government of Cuba, even though they have a per-capita higher rate of foreign investment in their economy than even China?

Shame on the pseudo-Marxist-Leninists who call themselves followers of Enver Hoxha as well. How many threads must the anarchists and Trotskyites post those pictures of bunkers in Albania, talk about the cult of personality around Hoxha, (not to even mention Stalin, who you claim to uphold) before you start to get the nature of this cartoonish propaganda is recycled for everyone who has ever taken a principled stand against US imperialism? You people should know better.

[AK]

What the fuck does some trash-eating anarcho-white child know about socialism?
I figured your post was not worth reading soon after I read this beauty. I love the sectarianism, ageism, what some would consider to be classism and the hints of racism you spit out.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Any source on this? 'Kim' is a pretty common Korean surname.What matters here is the Hanja (Chinese characters) for his name: 金日成.

金 (Kim, written 김 in Hangul) means gold. It is indeed the most common Korean surname. It comes from the kings of Silla, one of the Three Kingdoms of Korea, who used quite a bit of gold (and even made up a story about their ancestor Kim Alji emerging from a golden egg as an infant).

The rest (日成) literally translates to "day become." Korean grammar differs from English grammar. The practical meaning is "become the sun."


If North Korea ended up like the South, it would be a much better service to the workersThe actual fact is that workers are exploited and repressed in the south. Discussing proletarian revolution (or even failing to report others that do to the authorities) is enough to land you in jail or get you executed (see: National Security Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Act_%28South_Korea%29)).


But they are still socialist as they have a collectively owned economy.The means of production were nationalized in Myanmar long ago. Is Myanmar socialist?


I'll take bourgeoisie republics over this great 'socialist' paradise, sunny smiles or not. The north surpassed the south up until the 80's in economic measures and living standards. Repression is the south was also widespread. Over a hundred thousand people there were murdered by the capitalist dictatorship. It wasn't until the 1980's that the south, developed by an influx of capital and a U.S.-backed corporatist system, pulled ahead. That's also the time the military government gave way to capitalist democracy there.

As was mentioned above though, this "bourgeois republic" is no paradise.

The point is (or should be) that workers have no country. Our task is to establish a classless economy on a world scale. Siding with capitalist south Korea because it's "less oppressive" has nothing to do with that.


And some of you call yourself communists.And the fact that people like you do makes it impossible for people like me to do so.

[Chimurenga.]

North Korean workers and peasants have as much say in the direction of the economy and the government of society as the working and peasant classes everywhere else in the world do: none at all.

Prove it.

[AK]

Prove it.
You're actually asking me to prove that the working class is not in direct control of the economy and government?

[dutch master]

It's not written by the people of North Korea at all though is it?

Yes it is. It is the work of the Supreme People's Assembly.


It's written by a parasitic bureaucratic class that purports to represent the people.

You're a parasitic element that claims to represent the Left.


If Kim Jong-Il actually wanted to "build socialism", then he would have probably had some sort of direct democracy implemented

They do. The DPRK is what direct democracy looks like.


As in Cuba and other one party socialist societies, North Korea has a system of direct democracy in which elections are held for local peoples committees, district and provincial committees and to the Supreme People’s Assembly. The absence of other parties is not considered a failing, as the entire society is socialist. The question of multiple parties did not even seem understandable to those we spoke to. The delegation questioned whether within that system, there is in fact more participatory democracy than in the American federal system or the parliamentary system in which democracy ceases to operate once the elections are over. It is more circular, with local committees sending up to the next level requests, complaints and so on and so on up to the national level with discussion, at least in theory at these levels and then feedback to the local level until an agreement is reached based on resources available and circumstances.


whereby the people of Korea can actually choose what they want.

They can and do choose exactly what they get. The DPRK is probably the most well-supported government in the world, far more than any bourgeois democracy.


Do they want common ownership over the means of production, or do they prefer wage-labour and exploitation?

What a stupid question.


And yet the DPRK hopelessly tries to implement socialism from above on behalf of the people of North Korea, without the consent of the working class, and the vast majority of the population.

This is just so many racist lies. There is no such thing as "socialism from above." The very idea that such a system can even be created without the masses is a bourgeois lie. Of course, Trotskyite trash and anarchists represent the ideas of the imperialist bourgeoisie in the ranks of the radical Left, so it is no surprise to find the loud-mouth lapdogs of imperialism beating the war drums on behalf of their masters.

[Chimurenga.]

You're actually asking me to prove that the working class is not in direct control of the economy and government?

No, I'm asking you to prove that North Koreans have no say in government or in the economy.

[dutch master]

I can't believe the crap I'm reading here. "The North Korean means of production are collectively owned", "North Korea is a workers' state". You've got to be fucking kidding me. North Korean workers and peasants have as much say in the direction of the economy and the government of society as the working and peasant classes everywhere else in the world do: none at all.

You have no source for any this racist shit. Wait, I take that back. Stupid anarcho-trash like yourself watch racist Comedy Central TV shows, where the leadership of the DPRK is made fun of in many vile, racist ways ("So Ronery" and other such trash), and think you know a god damn thing about the DPRK and its people. You don't know shit about anything except possibly what time of night is best to eat out of the dumpster.

[AK]

Yes it is. It is the work of the Supreme People's Assembly.
And by that logic the working class control the affairs of the Australian government because we elect politicians to the Senate and the House of Representatives.


You're a parasitic element that claims to represent the Left.
Nowhere in Lyev's posts can we find any claims of them that they represent the Left.


They do. The DPRK is what direct democracy looks like.
Not only is this completely unfounded and sig-worthy, but it is a contradiction because your very first point was that the Supreme Peoples' Assembly was in control.


They can and do choose exactly what they get. The DPRK is probably the most well-supported government in the world, far more than any bourgeois democracy.
Direct democracy cannot be called the prevailing system if it is not the supreme decision-making method (as you mention that local committees employ direct democracy).


What a stupid question.
It is a stupid question. But we know that if they want common ownership and control of the means of production, then they don't have it yet.


This is just so many racist lies. There is no such thing as "socialism from above." The very idea that such a system can even be created without the masses is a bourgeois lie. Of course, Trotskyite trash and anarchists represent the ideas of the imperialist bourgeoisie in the ranks of the radical Left, so it is no surprise to find the loud-mouth lapdogs of imperialism beating the war drums on behalf of their masters.
Racism? Strawman. Anarchist and Trotskyist ideology representing the ambitions of the ruling class? That's the biggest bullshit I've heard in my life.

[AK]

No, I'm asking you to prove that North Koreans have no say in government or in the economy.
Alright. So they apparently have a bigger voice than we do in terms of the local area. But direct democracy is useless unless it is the prevailing system everywhere. I don't just mean running the neigbourhood, I mean everyone's vote each being an equal factor in the government and management of all of society.

[Paulappaul]

I can't believe the crap I'm reading here. "The North Korean means of production are collectively owned", "North Korea is a workers' state". You've got to be fucking kidding me. North Korean workers and peasants have as much say in the direction of the economy and the government of society as the working and peasant classes everywhere else in the world do: none at all.

My thoughts exactly. It's a fucking travesty that Socialism is being pinned on North Korea by the general population at large but the Socialists too, now that's fucking depressing.


Defend from a communist perspective? That's perfectly easy, or do you think we don't read Lenin, know nothing of the NEP, etc? In a situation where Russia was devastated by civil war and foreign intervention, the Bolsheviks instituted policies that were temporary concessions in a difficult time. Pseudo-revolutionary rhetoric doesn't feed the people, clothe them, protect them from criminal elements, etc. They made difficult concessions to continue the rule of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat and to help their people.

Honestly, that's fucking stupid.


Do they want common ownership over the means of production, or do they prefer wage-labour and exploitation?

What a stupid question.

No that's a basic tenet of Marxism failed to be lived up to by North Korea.


You have no source for any this racist shit. Wait, I take that back. Stupid anarcho-trash like yourself watch racist Comedy Central TV shows, where the leadership of the DPRK is made fun of in many vile, racist ways ("So Ronery" and other such trash), and think you know a god damn thing about the DPRK and its people. You don't know shit about anything except possibly what time of night is best to eat out of the dumpster.

:laugh:

[AK]

You have no source for any this racist shit. Wait, I take that back. Stupid anarcho-trash like yourself watch racist Comedy Central TV shows, where the leadership of the DPRK is made fun of in many vile, racist ways ("So Ronery" and other such trash), and think you know a god damn thing about the DPRK and its people. You don't know shit about anything except possibly what time of night is best to eat out of the dumpster.
I don't get Comedy Central on my television. Besides, you're also offending those who face the reality of having to actually find their food in dumpsters. You might call these people the homeless and/or working poor. Are you on their side or not?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

The DPRK by far has the lowest rate of foreign investment in their economy

Not by choice.

The DPRK's Constitution doesn't help the case of its cheerleaders btw.


Article 19. The DPRK shall base itself on the socialist production relations and the foundation of a self-supporting national economy.

... but:


Article 37. The state shall encourage joint ventures and business collaboration between the organs, enterprises, and organizations in our country and foreign corporations or individuals, as well as the establishment and operation of various forms of enterprises in special economic zones.

"Self-sufficiency" is a response to international isolation at best and a reactionary pipe dream at worst. One of the most progressive aspects of capitalism in its ascendancy was the creation of a world economy.


The DPRK is an independent socialist state representing the interests of all the Korean people.

How can a state represent the interests of all people?

"The free people’s state is transformed into the free state. Grammatically speaking, a free state is one in which the state is free vis-à-vis its citizens, a state, that is, with a despotic government. All the palaver about the state ought to be dropped, especially after the Commune, which had ceased to be a state in the true sense of the term. The people’s state has been flung in our teeth ad nauseam by the anarchists, although Marx’s anti-Proudhon piece and after it the Communist Manifestodeclare outright that, with the introduction of the socialist order of society, the state will dissolve of itself and disappear. .... the State is only a transitional institution, which is used in the struggle, in the revolution, to hold down one’s adversaries by force, it is sheer nonsense to talk of a 'free people’s State;' so long as the proletariat still needs the State, it does not need it in the interests of freedom, but in order to hold down its adversaries, and, as soon as it becomes possible to speak of freedom, the State, as such, ceases to exist." - Engels


Article 12. The state shall adhere to the class line and strengthen the dictatorship of the people's democracy, and thus firmly protect the people's sovereignty and socialist system from the maneuvers for destruction by hostile elements at home and abroad.

So the state represents all people, except "hostile elements at home," who would be of what force exactly? Working people working against the state they are "masters of"?


The state shall ensure the full utilization of the working hours by organizing labor effectively and strengthening labor discipline.

And here we come to the crux of it: the working class is under the rule of others.

[Chimurenga.]

Alright. So they apparently have a bigger voice than we do in terms of the local area.

LOL... oops.

[AK]

LOL... oops.
They have a bigger voice than we do in terms of the local area - hardly equal to having a significant voice in the management of society. At least I can admit I am wrong, unlike others on this board.

[Guerrilla22]

North Korean workers and peasants have as much say in the direction of the economy and the government of society as the working and peasant classes everywhere else in the world do: none at all.

Where does your information on the DPRK come from? Western media?

[AK]

Where does your information on the DPRK come from? Western media?
So is it fair to say that the whole of the working class is final authority in the DPRK?

[Guerrilla22]

So is it fair to say that the whole of the working class is final authority in the DPRK?

Not sure, I don't have enough reliable information on the way the DPRK operates to make a fair assessment. The only information we have available on the DPRK comes from the western media and governments. I'm not about to criticize a place I know nothing about, unlike some people in this thread.

[Paulappaul]

No, I'm asking you to prove that North Koreans have no say in government or in the economy.

In State Capitalism, government and the economy are more openly connected. Therefor if the people don't there economy they don't manage their government and vis versa. The notion that the "party is tool of direct democracy" is an oxymoron. Parties are used when views of the Proletarian need to be represented rather then direct.

The same kind of bullshit being spread here about how the inter working of the Workers' Party as sign of Direct Democracy was also being said 30 years ago by the Communist Party in the Soviet Union. Fact of the matter is, the party didn't represent the class interests of the Proletarian during the Soviet Union and it doesn't in North Korea.

[Guerrilla22]

In State Capitalism, government and the economy are more openly connected.

"State capitalism" is merely rhetoric. It doesn't exist, nor has it ever.

[Paulappaul]

You gonna expand on that or are you gonna leave me hanging here waiting for something more then that vague response.

[Guerrilla22]

You gonna expand on that or are you gonna leave me hanging here waiting for something more then that vague response.

I don't have to, I summed up what I had to say in one sentence. If you're going to to make an argument it is best not to throw around rhetoric like "state capitalism" it's meaningless.

[Paulappaul]

Thanks for that coach, I needed your advice on this one.

How about you get off your high horse and tell me why it's meaningless to describe it as State Capitalism? That would actually help me out a bit.

[Guerrilla22]

Thanks for that coach, I needed your advice on this one.

How about you get off your high horse and tell me why it's meaningless to describe it as State Capitalism? That would actually help me out a bit.

I already did, because "state capitalism" is rhetoric. Simply calling the USSR, the DPRK or any other country "state capitalist" in order to dismiss it is not a valid argument. It would be the equivalent of me simply referring to you as an "ultra leftist" in order to dismiss your view point. Which of course, I shall refrain from doing.

[Paulappaul]

I already did, because "state capitalism" is rhetoric. Simply calling the USSR, the DPRK or any other country "state capitalist" in order to dismiss it is not a valid argument. It would be the equivalent of me simply referring to you as an "ultra leftist" in order to dismiss your view point. Which of course, I shall refrain from doing.

I didn't use State Capitalism as a derogatory means to dismiss your argument. I stated that in North Korea the State owns the means of the production and operates them in a Capitalistic fashion. I continued by saying that under such a system that pertains a one party system that if Workers do no exercise control of their respective workplaces and greater economy then they do not manage their government as the two are inherently tied.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

"Conceptually, competition is nothing other than the inner nature of capital, its essential character, appearing in and realized as the reciprocal interaction of many capitals with one another. Capital exists and can only exist as many capitals." - Marx

[Guerrilla22]

I didn't use State Capitalism as a derogatory means to dismiss your argument. I stated that in North Korea the State owns the means of the production and operates them in a Capitalistic fashion. I continued by saying that under such a system that pertains a one party system that if Workers do no exercise control of their respective workplaces and greater economy then they do not manage their government as the two are inherently tied.

Ok, but that isn't the definition of capitalism. In order to maintain that the state is acting in the same manner as the bourgeoisie in the west one would have to be able to prove that the state is exploiting their "employees" in order to generate a profit. That is assuming this accusation is true. As I stated previously all of our information on the DPRK comes from either western media outlets or western governments. I don't think anyone on this forum really has enough credible information to make any kind of definite judgment on the nature of labor dynamics inside the DPRK.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Even if you go by the DPRK's own description of itself it's clear that the workers do not control the means of production and are in fact ruled over.

[Ravachol]

What the fuck does some trash-eating anarcho-white child know about socialism?


http://cdn0.knowyourmeme.com/i/29358/original/umad.jpg?1260037695



Defend from a communist perspective? That's perfectly easy, or do you think we don't read Lenin, know nothing of the NEP, etc? In a situation where Russia was devastated by civil war and foreign intervention, the Bolsheviks instituted policies that were temporary concessions in a difficult time.


If these concessions ammount to acting as a de-facto Capitalist by selling wage-labour at low rates to Capital we have just traded in one yoke for another. Wage labour is unacceptable at any time, in any form if we are to move towards communism. How is opening up markets for investors, ensuring no labour revolt, low wages and the protection of intellectual property and patents going to bring us closer to communism?



Pseudo-revolutionary rhetoric doesn't feed the people, clothe them, protect them from criminal elements


I see the DPRK is doing a good job at that! :rolleyes: You know what feeds the people, clothes them,etc? Actual socialism. I'm not even discussing whether state-socialism can bring us closer to communism, mind you. Let us assume that it can, even on those terms the DPRK is not a genuine state-socialist project and completely uncomparable to, say, Cuba.




People like Captain Cuba should be ashamed of themselves as well. The DPRK by far has the lowest rate of foreign investment in their economy


There are a lot of African countries with a low rate of 'foreign' investment in their economy as well, simply because they are unattractive investment opportunities, doesn't make them a bit more socialist. You don't seem to understand socialism do you?



, and thinks nothing of joining in with the pseudo-revolutionary trash on this forum and their masters at CNN, Fox, MSNBC, the White House, etc,


Haha, oh wow.



in regurgitating the racist anti-DPRK catechism. Yet would Captain Cuba join them in denouncing the revolutionary government of Cuba, even though they have a per-capita higher rate of foreign investment in their economy than even China?


What is this crypto-nationalist babbling about 'foreign' investment from someone defending wage-labour and class-struggle repression (both stated explicitly on the DPRK site).



this cartoonish propaganda is recycled for everyone who has ever taken a principled stand against US imperialism? You people should know better.

There is NOTHING cartoonish about the facts, from the DPRK's own website no less, that are laid out here. Now I can continue discussing on reasonable terms or I will simply ignore you as you keep ignoring the fact that everything said here is anathema to anything even resembling socialism. Also, I do not defend US imperialism by any means, where have I called for foreign intervention in the DPRK? Nowhere. You're putting forward strawman arguments now.



They do. The DPRK is what direct democracy looks like.


Well then that's one project I'm gonna abandon for sure. Don't make a fool out of yourself lad.



Herp Derp ad hominem attacks derp


Care to elaborate how the DPRK's current 'strategy' is going to achieve a stateless, classless society?

Come on, you're making a fool out of yourself.

[RedAnarchist]

This is full of sectarianism, so I'm going to close it. If anyone wants to discuss any issue from this thread that doesn't involve sectarianism, feel free to make a new thread.