Whats your opinion on those who call themselves communist for the "rebel chic" factor

[Adi Shankara]

I meant to add "anarchists" in there too, but it wouldn't fit.

like in another thread, some user was a self proclaimed "anarchist" but at the same time, he said he liked the current political system, just not the current government.

Thus, it's obvious he knows next to nothing on anarchism.

I see the same thing on here when people will call themselves "socialist" and then defend Barack Obama on things.

so my question is this: how do you feel about those people who call themselves communist or anarchist just to look rebellious, or to look "cool"? how they call themselves communist more as a fashion statement than a political ideology? or those people who are only communist because they like the aesthetics of it (i.e, the posters, the patriotic music, the anti-capitalism) but know nothing about communism?

[scarletghoul]

I too know a self-proclaimed Anarchist... I tried talking to him about politics, but he hates politics apparently and refuses to talk about it. Then he went on about how the holocaust should have been done to black people. He's a prick.

Anarchism is obviously the most misused label when it comes to wannabe-nihilists. A lot of 'socialists' are just welfare state capitalists.. Uhh I know one boy who says he's a Stalinist because Stalin was a 'badass motherfucker'. Though I think this is correct, his ideas lack any further depth and it's difficult to talk to him about marxism. He's a nice person though.

So it really depends. Some of these people are annoying and disgusting, some are attracted to the ideal and can be educated with proper theory, some are annoying in their mislabelling but are alright people overall..

[Demogorgon]

It depends. When I'm in a bad mood it irritates me and when I'm in a good mood I am more relaxed about it. Being in a reasonably good mood right now, I would like to think some of them will come to be real communists.

I must say though that "My parents won't let me stay out past ten so I want to smash all authority" is never going to go down terribly well with me. I recall someone here a number of years ago claiming he was oppressed because he was forced to do Algebra at school. It is pretty funny looking back, but at the time it seemed depressing that people here were saying that.

[Raúl Duke]

how do you feel about those people who call themselves communist or anarchist just to look rebellious, or to look "cool"? how they call themselves communist more as a fashion statement than a political ideology?

It depends...

Some of these types I actually don't mind or actually "like" but the kinds you describe/are going for I can't stand.

[F9]

They are better than the ones calling themselves capies, fascists etc at least there is a higher possibility for them to join us really.What i cant stand is those who know what communism,anarchism is, they act with shits completely different from them, but still call themselves anarchists, commies just for earning something, see votes, support etc.

Fuserg9:star:

[Adil3tr]

We could educate them, mabe they could actually learn. I taught one of them about trotskism.

[Ele'ill]

They don't really bother me. The ones who bother me generally appear at demonstrations or other various events and do things that become problematic in an immediate sense as well as in regards to long term goals. They achieve a level of fuckwittery that lacks structure outside of their actions. I call them poltergeists.

The other group of people that I cannot stand, while we're on the topic, are those people that disagree with leftist ideas simply because they feel it gives them an element of edgyness. They suffer from superiority complexes and through discussion generally resort to something past nihilism and into the realm of 'everything is just an opinion and also I'm a sociopath'. It usually takes one conversation and they never speak to me again (thank god)

[Widerstand]

I don't know man. I used to be like that years ago when I initially got into Punk and it was just so fancy and stylish to put Anarchist patches and buttons on everything . I mean, I'm still a sucker for Hardcore Punk and I actually like a lot of the aesthetics, and I wouldn't deny that this played a major part in me becoming a leftist.

I think some of them are really just "new to the scene" and haven't educated themselves that much yet. There are those that have a very vague idea what they are associating with. You could argue that it's hasty to proclaim you are an Anarchist/Communist without having any clue about either position, and I wouldn't disagree. But most these folks usually either move on and educate themselves, or quit for the next best fad.

That thing about socialists would strike me as an American issue. I guess some democrats heard too much republican propaganda and started adopting their rhetoric? Or maybe it's just that no one in Germany ever talks about socialists.

As for those who don't even have a minor sympathy and really just do it as a fashion/style gag ... well fuck 'em. Can't do much about it anyway. Of course you could try to educate them - as you should with anyone.

[Ele'ill]

There's nothing wrong with patches (within reason) and dressing how you want is a very cool thing. I have heard some shockingly cutting to the point words spoken in a polite manner from people dressed in the sterotypical punkish outfits and I've heard some insanely stupid words spoken by activists who were dressed as what most would call 'normal'.

[Invincible Summer]

I have a friend who calls himself a socialists and "semi-communist," but he always says "Capitalism is great" and in political arguments he always argues for a centrist-liberal position.

I confronted him about this, and he said "Capitalism is good. Socialism/Communism is better, but everyone knows it doesn't actually work." :rolleyes:

I've also met someone who told me "Communism as an ideology was formed by western heteronormative white men! It then is inherently not in the interests of queers, colored people, and women! Communism is flawed!"

I also hate people who are so "non-conformist" that being a Communist is "just conforming to another system of ideas" or something ridiculous.

[Dimentio]

I meant to add "anarchists" in there too, but it wouldn't fit.

like in another thread, some user was a self proclaimed "anarchist" but at the same time, he said he liked the current political system, just not the current government.

Thus, it's obvious he knows next to nothing on anarchism.

I see the same thing on here when people will call themselves "socialist" and then defend Barack Obama on things.

so my question is this: how do you feel about those people who call themselves communist or anarchist just to look rebellious, or to look "cool"? how they call themselves communist more as a fashion statement than a political ideology? or those people who are only communist because they like the aesthetics of it (i.e, the posters, the patriotic music, the anti-capitalism) but know nothing about communism?

I think most people here around (Sweden) who do it are doing it because several subcultures in Sweden are associated with communism or at least leftism since the 1970's, and it is saying something about their identity. In the first world - or at least here - it seems like the perception of the self is determining a lot on what politics an individual is supporting in his or her youth.

[Widerstand]

After giving this a bit more thought, what I really dislike are these so called Anarcho-capitalists. Seriously what the fuck.

[DaComm]

I hate them. They are as bad as anti-communists in my opinion. Firstly, it makes Communism look as if it attracts idiots who care more about their personal life than actual worker emancipation. Secondly, if one were to get into a debate with this intelligent young fellow on any discussion, everything "Mr. Cool" says will be un-related to actual Marxist theory and everything he says will appear a s a distortion that will inherently give people a way-off impression of Communism or make them hostile to the idea of Communism because they think it's what some idiot thinks. And lastly, I mean...it makes us look bad. Our movement has been called many things but we certainly do not want people associating some idiot with our ideology. This is not progressive, and action should be taken against those who do such things.

EDIT: Same with religious Communists. They do not stand for their ideology because it frees the opressed and brings to us a society where we can all be cordial and cooperative, they stand for it because it was written in the bible. It is the same deal with those who simply identify themselves as Communist because they want to be cool. They are simply idiots that do not care to think for themselves, they simply administer themselves an ideology for outside reasons, not their own reasons. For So-called-Commies, it is the desire to be cool that is the external force that drives them to call themselves that. For Christian Communists, their external reasoning is a fear of going to hell.

[Rusty Shackleford]

i think chammer give a good account of one going from a lifestyle to an ideology.

it is annoying when you have people espousing oral diarrhea in the name of communism or anarchism. but, some of those people, like chammer said, either move on to a new fad, or better education. plus, even if those people exist, that means that there must be actual ideological people existing in that same society. if ideological people exist that means theres potential to pull these people into the movement.

the only danger i can see with them is if they show up at a demo, saying they are with some organization or for a cause and pull some stupid shit without consulting organizers. Yes, its a learning process, but that is a place where discipline must exist.

i think of it as kind of a level of consciousness phase.
i think these people you are talking about in this thread are those that would be in the aesthetic phase.

Cadre(:che::castro::trotski::engles::marx:)<--Ideological(conscious:hammersickle::star::blackA:)<--Learning\Awakening(semiclassconscious)<--Aesthetic<--Unconscious

[Kotze]

To any poseur reading this who thinks that the Soviet Union was very much suboptimal and nothing to emulate and that you can be a Marxist while acknowledging that, so that you aim for something very different, and of course it pisses you off to end when people call you a Stalinist, just because you are a Marxist, and you think that Stalin had very little to do with Marx and even the less bad guy Lenin wasn't to your taste and it's all a plot by the MSM to discredit Marx anyway; and while giving that sermon you are wearing a shirt with Soviet Union symbols: Methinks your ways of communication are kinda suboptimal.

My opinion isn't black or white. That is, I believe reasons like wanting to impress peers or shocking your parents often play some role without being the only motivation. Even the most superficial radical poseurs I have talked to got the basic leftist conviction that the current wealth distribution cannot be justified from a utilitarian perspective and that it cannot be justified from the perspective of to each according to his productivity either.

I believe the majority on this board is guilty of a bit of posturing. Don't get me started on people who don't have any economical program, because everything will fall into place magically. After a civil war. :rolleyes:

[Robocommie]

After giving this a bit more thought, what I really dislike are these so called Anarcho-capitalists. Seriously what the fuck.

It's capitalism with the sex appeal of being a rebel, baby!

[AK]

One of my friends calls himself a Leninist because he wants to "lead the world revolution and become El Presidente". He knows nothing of capitalism and when asked about the Communist Manifesto, he replies "well who can be bothered reading that?"

[Obs]

I hate those fake commies going for a 'rebel chic' factor, no question.

'Rebel chick' factor, however...

[The Red Next Door]

I used to be a person who became a communist because it was cool, but after being a central idiot, i became a REAL communist. I don't like those people either, they won't better to read the shit behind it because it huts their hipster brains.

[Barry Lyndon]

I also hate people who are so "non-conformist" that being a Communist is "just conforming to another system of ideas" or something ridiculous.

This. Nothing infuriates me more then self-absorbed pricks who delude themselves that they are beyond 'ideology', when in fact they are some of the most indoctrinated people around. Knowing many postmodern philosophy students, I have been exposed to this attitude in spades.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

A co-worker/friend of mine has "Anarchy" and "Revolution" tattooed on him. The I let out a big "goddammit" when I also saw he had "Chaos"
Chaos =/= Anarchy

when asked about the Communist Manifesto, he replies "well who can be bothered reading that?"
...wat

[soyonstout]

My opinion isn't black or white. That is, I believe reasons like wanting to impress peers or shocking your parents often play some role without being the only motivation. Even the most superficial radical poseurs I have talked to got the basic leftist conviction that the current wealth distribution cannot be justified from a utilitarian perspective and that it cannot be justified from the perspective of to each according to his productivity either.

I believe the majority on this board is guilty of a bit of posturing. Don't get me started on people who don't have any economical program, because everything will fall into place magically. After a civil war. :rolleyes:

this.

[Robocommie]

I really don't care about kids or teenagers who just call themselves socialists, they tend to reveal themselves soon enough when they don't know anything about Cuba, the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc, China, Vietnam, the Spanish anarchists, the Paris Commune, etc. In other words, when they show they know nothing about where our movement comes from. They're not a threat, they're just mostly dumb kids (or dumb adults) and hopefully will mature in time.

The real problem are people who hold on to ideas from classical liberalism that are anti-thetical to leftist politics, like cultural chauvinism, paternalistic attitudes, and non-economic determinism.

[ZeroNowhere]

This thread is a witty little snipe, but it would be preferable if you kept your slurs to the Maher thread so as to take up less space.

[Ele'ill]

I really don't care about kids or teenagers who just call themselves socialists, they tend to reveal themselves soon enough when they don't know anything about Cuba, the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc, China, Vietnam, the Spanish anarchists, the Paris Commune, etc. In other words, when they show they know nothing about where our movement comes from. They're not a threat, they're just mostly dumb kids (or dumb adults) and hopefully will mature in time.

The real problem are people who hold on to ideas from classical liberalism that are anti-thetical to leftist politics, like cultural chauvinism, paternalistic attitudes, and non-economic determinism.


I understand what you're saying but I disagree a bit. I think a lot of people who don't like to become familiar with history still can have good ideas and be a force behind social change. To contradict myself as I write this I'd imagine a lot of those types will read up on historical events that directly pertain to what they're fighting for at that time- either by previous knowledge or someone's recommendation.

[TheSamsquatch]

To a group of people who commit themselves to the study of Communism, spend lengths of time amassing knowledge on the subject, and openly support and argue in favor of it, it's pretty obvious how the majority of us will feel about people that pull this kind of shit.

[redSHARP]

they are not as bad as nazi wannabes. dumb, racist, and trying to prove themselves by starting fights or causing shit. they can be very dangerous.

[Pavlov's House Party]

These people tend to hold onto homophobic, sexist, nationalist (not in the Stalinist "opressed" kind, but the AMERICA FUCK YEAH kind) etc ideas, and somehow conflate it with leftism. These are the best points to bring up with kids like this because it won't end in some stupid "communism's about thinking what you want, man" comment, and can be used to expose their reactionary side and then propose the leftist alternative.

Some of my best comrades now were ultra-left lifestylists like this at one point, but after awhile their ideas matured through discussion.

When talking to these people it is important to keep in mind Lenin's phrase from the April Theses: "Patiently Explain"!

[Tavarisch_Mike]

During my time at highschool i had many friends wich could be put into this chategory, i dont mind it when its young kids searching for some sort of answers ore identity, thats just normal and healthy. What i have problem with is when some people (then im talking about adults) that actually think that you are more radical if you wear a palestina scarf ore lf youre listening to anti-flag, immortal technique and know some leftwing slogans, then if you like gardning, have a family and listen to country music, when the first person is a journalist student with middle class backround, and the second person is a working class women working in a dinner hall, a union member and always tries to defend her co;workers against the boss when he feels to fuck with them.

Im trying to describe the phenomenon of communism/anarchism being made to some sort of subculture and lifestyle wich you shows in what clothes you wear ore wich music you listen to and so on.

[IllicitPopsicle]

I'm an "anarchist," and a punk, but I don't mix the two (usually) because my experiences with the actual "anarcho-punk" scene have been bad.


What i have problem with is when some people (then im talking about adults) that actually think that you are more radical if you wear a palestina scarf ore lf youre listening to anti-flag, immortal technique and know some leftwing slogans, then if you like gardning, have a family and listen to country music, when the first person is a journalist student with middle class backround, and the second person is a working class women working in a dinner hall, a union member and always tries to defend her co;workers against the boss when he feels to fuck with them.

I'm a journalism major. :( Generalizations have a tendency to be bad.

[Ele'ill]

I'm a journalism major. :( Generalizations have a tendency to be bad.

How do you like that major?

Do you think it will lead to steady employment?

[Jimmie Higgins]

People think this shit is cool?

I am more annoyed with life-stylists who think that elevate their favorite hobby or food to a revolutionary statement.

If there's someone who talks about revolution because they think it's cool - then fine, they will either eventually get serious or they will drop the affectation and jump onto the next thing: faux-lumberjacking maybe.

I guess that's a poser I can be OK with.

[Raúl Duke]

How do you like that major?

Do you think it will lead to steady employment?

I plan on being a journalist...but I fear about employment in that field. However, I'm majoring in something else.

[Ele'ill]

People think this shit is cool?

I am more annoyed with life-stylists who think that elevate their favorite hobby or food to a revolutionary statement.

If there's someone who talks about revolution because they think it's cool - then fine, they will either eventually get serious or they will drop the affectation and jump onto the next thing: faux-lumberjacking maybe.

I guess that's a poser I can be OK with.



I wear a loincloth and run through the forest with 'back-dreads' after eating vegan, dumpster diving, reading a crimethinc zine and hugging ferrets and bunny rabbits.


I also organize, demonstrate and agitate.


Bubble bursted!

[Jimmie Higgins]

I wear a loincloth and run through the forest with 'back-dreads' after eating vegan, dumpster diving, reading a crimethinc zine and hugging ferrets and bunny rabbits.And you think this will change capitalism.



I also organize, demonstrate and agitate. Then you probably don't think that lifestyle alone is enough to get rid of the system and replace it with a stateless, classless society. Then you are not a life-stylist and do not annoy me... not on that count anyway:lol:. Your avatar on the other hand...

I'm all for punk rock, conscious hip hop, bike riding, craft projects, diy everything... I just totally am against these things when they are promoted by people as a viable alternative to capitalism let alone an actual challenge to they system.

On a side note, I feel that rather than lifestyle improving my "radicalness", my "radicalness" has improved my lifestyle. When I was younger and did not have any political outlet or ways of being involved in struggle, I took lifestyle much more seriously. Now I think I have better priories and so I don't feel like I am setting back the struggle if I listen to an a-political song or eat fast food every once in a while.

[Crux]

One of my friends calls himself a Leninist because he wants to "lead the world revolution and become El Presidente". He knows nothing of capitalism and when asked about the Communist Manifesto, he replies "well who can be bothered reading that?"
Then again, aren't you, like, 15?

[IllicitPopsicle]

How do you like that major?

Do you think it will lead to steady employment?

I liked journalism before I was involved in leftism (or college), so I do of course enjoy it. As for employment... Your guess is as good as mine, comrade.

[IllicitPopsicle]

And you think this will change capitalism.


Then you probably don't think that lifestyle alone is enough to get rid of the system and replace it with a stateless, classless society. Then you are not a life-stylist and do not annoy me... not on that count anyway:lol:. Your avatar on the other hand...

I'm all for punk rock, conscious hip hop, bike riding, craft projects, diy everything... I just totally am against these things when they are promoted by people as a viable alternative to capitalism let alone an actual challenge to they system.

On a side note, I feel that rather than lifestyle improving my "radicalness", my "radicalness" has improved my lifestyle. When I was younger and did not have any political outlet or ways of being involved in struggle, I took lifestyle much more seriously. Now I think I have better priories and so I don't feel like I am setting back the struggle if I listen to an a-political song or eat fast food every once in a while.

GASP! Eat FAST FOOD??? D: THE HORROR!!!!!!1!

[Jimmie Higgins]

GASP! Eat FAST FOOD??? D: THE HORROR!!!!!!1!I know, man, that's how the Russian Revolution went to shit.:lol:

[Ele'ill]

And you think this will change capitalism.

Strawman.

No, I do it for fun.



Then you probably don't think that lifestyle alone is enough to get rid of the system and replace it with a stateless, classless society. Then you are not a life-stylist and do not annoy me... not on that count anyway:lol:. Your avatar on the other hand...

What's wrong with my avatar?


I'm all for punk rock, conscious hip hop, bike riding, craft projects, diy everything... I just totally am against these things when they are promoted by people as a viable alternative to capitalism let alone an actual challenge to they system.

You realize you're parroting an idea that was most likely spread by 15 year olds with superiority complexes that still were holding onto middleschool clique mentalities and trying to exclude people they saw as not fitting in with their abercrombie and fitch generation not realizing that their own 'lifestylism' was not only more ridiculous but directly contributing to planetary destruction, worker's rights violations, barriers to social justice and making them go bald earlier because of the amount of gel they used in their hair to complement their popped collars and lip gloss.

Give the discriminatory strawman a rest, buck up and get out into the real world and realize that putting your life actions where your mouth is tends to be more important than wrapping up in mom's blanket with a cup of hot cocoa and an outdated book about leftist theory that would leave us all dead at the drop of a hat if we ever had the opportunity to put it into action in current times. Fuck that shit.

The idea of lifestylism hurting leftist progress is a fucking excuse based around incompetent organizing, useless tactics and a bad fucking attitude.

Keep chasing ghosts.


On a side note, I feel that rather than lifestyle improving my "radicalness", my "radicalness" has improved my lifestyle.

How self-actualized.

I'm sure nobody has ever had radical views and changed their life to fit their beliefs. Oh wait..



When I was younger and did not have any political outlet or ways of being involved in struggle, I took lifestyle much more seriously. Now I think I have better priories and so I don't feel like I am setting back the struggle if I listen to an a-political song or eat fast food every once in a while.

Give the specifics your money and they will use it for legal, physical, mental and social injustice. Feed the monster under your bed by day and fight it by night.


:rolleyes:

[Ele'ill]

I also want to point out that a lot of the people that 'look different' or are vegan (:laugh:) might not be participating in organizing, demonstrations or actions because they don't know how.

There are no systems set up to encourage newcomers to the majority of the events.

Believe it or not most of these individuals don't feel encouraged enough to take autonomy seriously. They don't plan on their own because they don't have the experience to pull off a successful demonstration or action and they know it.

It can also be said that living your life based on your beliefs is autonomy in itself which I tend to agree on.

There's no reason to support a company with your money if you disagree with that company's specific violations to your beliefs.

I'm anti-capitalist. I'm not going to escape capitalist business in regards to 'labor', 'wage' and 'worker's not controlling the means of production' but I can stop supporting companies that violate global social justice as a vehicle for profit. It's very easy- I simply don't give them my money.

[AK]

Then again, aren't you, like, 15?
Yes, but how is that relevant? He has to take anti-depressants, though. So that might have something to do with it.

they are not as bad as nazi wannabes. dumb, racist, and trying to prove themselves by starting fights or causing shit. they can be very dangerous.
I was friends with one ages back. The thing is he liked Japanese culture (in his mind, just anime) and his equally racist friend fucked an asian girl and a black girl. The two racists failed at failing.

[Widerstand]

I also want to point out that a lot of the people that 'look different' or are vegan (:laugh:) might not be participating in organizing, demonstrations or actions because they don't know how.

There are no systems set up to encourage newcomers to the majority of the events.

I agree, especially if you are knew to the scene, it can be pretty hard finding your way around and just getting to KNOW when and where demonstrations, etc., are going on in the first place. Tbh I still find this a major issue in my city. There is one anarchist group that does roundups of events every so often on their website, but other than that, the only way of knowing when something is going to happen, is by either picking up flyers at another leftist event, or by knowing the people organizing it.

It also tends to be the case that groups isolate themselves a great deal, or are so theory-heavy that newcommers have no clue what the heck is going on, which further alienates potential supporters.



Believe it or not most of these individuals don't feel encouraged enough to take autonomy seriously. They don't plan on their own because they don't have the experience to pull off a successful demonstration or action and they know it.

It can also be said that living your life based on your beliefs is autonomy in itself which I tend to agree on.

There's no reason to support a company with your money if you disagree with that company's specific violations to your beliefs.

I'm anti-capitalist. I'm not going to escape capitalist business in regards to 'labor', 'wage' and 'worker's not controlling the means of production' but I can stop supporting companies that violate global social justice as a vehicle for profit. It's very easy- I simply don't give them my money.

I concur.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Strawman.

No, I do it for fun.Yes, so it is not REVOLUTIONARY. It's is fun. I listen to punk, and hip-hop, make zines and do DIY because I LIKE IT, not because it is REVOLUTIONARY.

But the people in Critical Mass here who turn their love of bike riding into some bullshit political statement and then blame all working class drivers for the war in Iraq and the BP oil spill are not helping to build a movement. Or the revolutionary knitting circles that hang out doing a pastime with he illusion that their hobbies are challenging the system.

There can not be INDIVIDUAL solutions to COLLECTIVE problems. Individual solutions are how liberals, not radicals see the way to change things. Radicals go to take out the roots of capitalism - liberals like to prune the branches.

The argument you are making is the same one made by liberal environmentalists... just reduce your carbon footprint and the environment will be fine. Lifestylism, when promoted to the level of a revolutionary activity among adherents is devisive because logically, every non-bike rider, every non-vegan, everyone who does not subscribe to the "revolutionary" lifestyle is therefore anti-revolutionary and part of the problem... that means most working class people are part of the problem.


What's wrong with my avatar? I was joking.


You realize you're parroting an idea that was most likely spread by 15 year olds with superiority complexes that still were holding onto middleschool clique mentalities and trying to exclude people they saw as not fitting in with their abercrombie and fitch generation not realizing that their own 'lifestylism' was not only more ridiculous but directly contributing to planetary destruction, worker's rights violations, barriers to social justice and making them go bald earlier because of the amount of gel they used in their hair to complement their popped collars and lip gloss.I have no idea what you are talking about. At my high school, there were neo-nazi wannabes and guys with pick-up trucks with the confederate flag and a gun rack in the back window of the cab who liked to joke about shooting migrant workers with pellet guns on the weekend (I guss they got tired of tipping cops and wanted a more racist outlet) - no one wore Ambercrombe. Ahh, central California in the 1990s.

I listened to hip hop and went to punk shows (and still do) so I don't think my criticism of "counter-culture"-as-Revolutionary-tactic has anything to do with my personal taste since my personal tastes are and have been aligned with the lifestylists.


Give the discriminatory strawman a rest, buck up and get out into the real worldJust so you know, I'm in my 30s and have been an active revolutionary for 10 years.


and realize that putting your life actions where your mouth is tends to be more important than wrapping up in mom's blanket with a cup of hot cocoa and an outdated book about leftist theory that would leave us all dead at the drop of a hat if we ever had the opportunity to put it into action in current times. Fuck that shit.I do put my actions where I feel that it would be most useful to building movements, organizing with people, and promoting left-wing ideas and politics among other people. And that has done more than if I had been sitting at home and not eating meat or not using anything manufactured by a major corporation.


The idea of lifestylism hurting leftist progress is a fucking excuse based around incompetent organizing, useless tactics and a bad fucking attitude.I have a great attitude, I don't try and tell other people they are destroying the world with their lifestyle... I just argue that lifestyles do not challenge the system. If you want to talk about bad attitudes, then tell a Critical Mass person that you are a radical and drive a car, tell a vegan that you want to win animal rights, but you still like to eat meat. When lifestyle becomes a "revolutionary tactic" then it stops being fun and personal and people start attacking people who do not agree with that lifestyle as "sell-outs" and so on.

Lifestyle becomes a kind of morality and I think the left needs to drop all policing of individual tastes and hobbies. If a radical who organizes people but is also is totally into Critical Mass as a fun rebellious activity, then great - and also if a radical organizes their co-workers but also likes to go out and drive in a pick-up truck, then that's equally great.


Give the specifics your money and they will use it for legal, physical, mental and social injustice. Feed the monster under your bed by day and fight it by night.

:rolleyes:Guess what, I go to work every day and I create wealth for capitalists who use it for a lot of bullshit at best, for increasing their own power and exploiting others at worst. I do not have a trust fund or private wealth: I am a worker as is eveyone in my family (aside from some of my realtives who are cops). I pay rent to a landlord who fucks up other people's lives and kicks people out of their apartments, my girlfriend buys gas from the most vile of capitalist companies, I pay taxes that go to fund imperialism. There is no escape from capitalism.

Follow the lifestylist's logic to it's conclusion... the ultimate destination is living on a commune and turning your back on the worker's struggle. Form your other posts, I know you don't believe this, you believe that organizing with other workers is actually the way to change things. So keep the lifestyle, just don't spread the myth that an individual lifestyle is a threat to the system.

I know it sucks living in capitalism... that's why we should organize against it, not try and find some "alternative" so we can pretend that we have escaped it.

[Ele'ill]

Yes, so it is not REVOLUTIONARY. It's is fun. I listen to punk, and hip-hop, make zines and do DIY because I LIKE IT, not because it is REVOLUTIONARY.

But the people in Critical Mass here who turn their love of bike riding into some bullshit political statement and then blame all working class drivers for the war in Iraq and the BP oil spill are not helping to build a movement. Or the revolutionary knitting circles that hang out doing a pastime with he illusion that their hobbies are challenging the system.


They're doing it for fun- the flip side is 1000 bicycles clogging up city streets gets attention and it's used as a demonstration tactic.

The only people touting the idea that 'bike riding is revolutionary' are those like yourself and NOT the people doing it (unless as I stated above it's used as a specific tactic- which it has been in the past)





There can not be INDIVIDUAL solutions to COLLECTIVE problems. Individual solutions are how liberals, not radicals see the way to change things. Radicals go to take out the roots of capitalism - liberals like to prune the branches.

Property destruction is a pretty good example of an individual solution being used to 'solve' a collective problem.


The argument you are making is the same one made by liberal environmentalists... just reduce your carbon footprint and the environment will be fine.

I have not heard anybody say this. It is important for each individual to live sustainably. Otherwise you'll end up with the technate and you'll end up with BP. The two contrast each other greatly (in theory of course).

There's nothing wrong with each individual living in a sustainable manner- it's a huge part of the solution and it's not about winning that physical victory over those destroying our planet it's about changing consciousness of each individual so as a whole we understand what the fuck we're doing.

If you came running up to me and said 'LOOK- WE DON'T HAVE TIME- DON'T QUESTION THIS TOO MUCH JUST WRAP YOUR ARMS OVER YOUR FACE AND JUMP THREE TIMES'- I'd probably tell you to fuck off.







Lifestylism, when promoted to the level of a revolutionary activity among adherents is devisive because logically, every non-bike rider, every non-vegan, everyone who does not subscribe to the "revolutionary" lifestyle is therefore anti-revolutionary and part of the problem... that means most working class people are part of the problem.

The only people suggesting that living a certain way is outright revolutionary are you and a handful of others on this forum. I have not heard this in the real world- not once. Not from vegans, not from animal rights activists, not from bike riders, not from squatters and not from traveling folk. It's a hallucination for you and I'm sorry it's driving you mad.




I was joking.


I figured it was a joke of some sort- I didn't get it. Explain?


I have no idea what you are talking about. At my high school, there were neo-nazi wannabes and guys with pick-up trucks with the confederate flag and a gun rack in the back window of the cab who liked to joke about shooting migrant workers with pellet guns on the weekend (I guss they got tired of tipping cops and wanted a more racist outlet) - no one wore Ambercrombe. Ahh, central California in the 1990s.


I was mimicking your parroting of a ridiculous strawman. I don't believe that specific stereotype actually exists.




Just so you know, I'm in my 30s and have been an active revolutionary for 10 years.

That doesn't mean your ideology is credible.



I do put my actions where I feel that it would be most useful to building movements, organizing with people, and promoting left-wing ideas and politics among other people. And that has done more than if I had been sitting at home and not eating meat or not using anything manufactured by a major corporation.

I really don't want to see another thread go down the road of meat vs no meat so I'll just say that the idea that you and the handful of other people on this forum can't seem to get through your heads is that vegans and all the other categories you've created don't just 'sit at home and not eat meat' (do you realize how ridiculous you sound) they make up some of the most active members of various organizing communities across the planet.

It feels like a new breed of womanizing sexism and something akin to racism the way that handful of people here discriminates against vegans, animal rights activists and the others based on an internally generated claim (from that group of people on here) that's a complete strawman and so full of nonsense it makes me wonder when the last time you walked outside was.


I have a great attitude, I don't try and tell other people they are destroying the world with their lifestyle... I just argue that lifestyles do not challenge the system.

I direct you to the other meat vs no meat threads that pretty much summed up the global north's over consumption of meat as a direct link to various forms of severe ecological destruction.




If you want to talk about bad attitudes, then tell a Critical Mass person that you are a radical and drive a car, tell a vegan that you want to win animal rights, but you still like to eat meat. When lifestyle becomes a "revolutionary tactic" then it stops being fun and personal and people start attacking people who do not agree with that lifestyle as "sell-outs" and so on.

The critical mass people I've talked to understand full that outside of a large city (as in say- the suburbs) biking isn't practical.

You need to hang around new people.





Lifestyle becomes a kind of morality and I think the left needs to drop all policing of individual tastes and hobbies. If a radical who organizes people but is also is totally into Critical Mass as a fun rebellious activity, then great - and also if a radical organizes their co-workers but also likes to go out and drive in a pick-up truck, then that's equally great.


I'm not arguing the car situation. I think certain people can choose better methods of transportation and in general we all should be considering this or should have been considering this a long time ago. We, humans, are destroying the planet by the way we live. We, humans, need to change the ways we live in order to stop this destruction. It's that simple. It's part of revolutionary thinking to stop and wonder- what could I do differently.




Guess what, I go to work every day and I create wealth for capitalists who use it for a lot of bullshit at best, for increasing their own power and exploiting others at worst. I do not have a trust fund or private wealth: I am a worker as is eveyone in my family (aside from some of my realtives who are cops). I pay rent to a landlord who fucks up other people's lives and kicks people out of their apartments, my girlfriend buys gas from the most vile of capitalist companies, I pay taxes that go to fund imperialism. There is no escape from capitalism.

I already stated pretty much the same thing. But while you're living under capitalism you can stop supporting the companies that are to blame for some of the world's worst atrocities. I already highlighed this in the other thread that I'm sure you saw. If you want I'll copy paste- otherwise just reread it.



Follow the lifestylist's logic to it's conclusion... the ultimate destination is living on a commune and turning your back on the worker's struggle. Form your other posts, I know you don't believe this, you believe that organizing with other workers is actually the way to change things. So keep the lifestyle, just don't spread the myth that an individual lifestyle is a threat to the system.

No, this is the image of 'lifestylists' (who don't actually exist) that you're using as an example because it makes an easy target. You made sure of this as you're the one who created these imaginary people. You're chasing ghosts and not fooling anybody.




I know it sucks living in capitalism... that's why we should organize against it, not try and find some "alternative" so we can pretend that we have escaped it.


I know many people that look different and live different who have organized some of the largest actions and demos in North America.


Stop parroting the idea that it's one or the other- whether it's based on your personal guilt for standing against an entity then stuffing your face with it's goodies while they stuff their faces with your dollars- I don't know.

I don't know what it is with this group here on revleft.

[Ele'ill]

I'd also like to point out an obvious point that 'we can't change collective problems through individual's behavior' and that we 'have to organize against capitalism and not worry about what we eat, consume, buy, support' is complete rubbish because the question looms out of the dark

What does it mean to organize against capitalism?

Capitalism isn't one giant cloud of ideological gas that can be stood up against it's everything from the various industrial complexes (prison, military etc) to the meat industry and the oil industry.

You have to pick targets and attack. If I'm organizing against a natural gas company and their local economic plans for my community I'm not going to spend all my time organizing against it and then use the company or otherwise support the company in any way shape or form.

This lifestylism perhaps tags directly behind the real work which is organizing.

[Jimmie Higgins]

They're doing it for fun- the flip side is 1000 bicycles clogging up city streets gets attention and it's used as a demonstration tactic.So then this case is a tactic and not lifestyleism and I have no inherent problem with that.


The only people touting the idea that 'bike riding is revolutionary' are those like yourself and NOT the people doing it (unless as I stated above it's used as a specific tactic- which it has been in the past)Except for the people in the local Critical Mass here who come to public events and denounce motorists for being the cause of the Iraq war. but if people think of cycling as a fun pass-time or the people in Critical Mass who use the event as a way to protest for bike lanes or whatnot, then I have no problem with it and do not consider it lifesylism.


There's nothing wrong with each individual living in a sustainable manner- it's a huge part of the solution and it's not about winning that physical victory over those destroying our planet it's about changing consciousness of each individual so as a whole we understand what the fuck we're doing. Is capitalism destroying the environment or is it being destroyed by people's individual greed?

Do working class people design US cities so that affordable housing is an hour away from where they work?

Do working class people design agriculture production so that farming is centralized in the hands of a few corporation that find it more profitable to use monoculture techniques, pesticides, and ship produce across the country by diesel truck?

Do working class people decide that clear-cutting is better than sustainable methods?

Do working class people decide to de-fund environmental agencies, remove environmental regulations, cut corners on oil rigs to save some money?

If the answer is no, then it is a structural change that must be made, not changes in people's personal choices.


If you came running up to me and said 'LOOK- WE DON'T HAVE TIME- DON'T QUESTION THIS TOO MUCH JUST WRAP YOUR ARMS OVER YOUR FACE AND JUMP THREE TIMES'- I'd probably tell you to fuck off.What?


The only people suggesting that living a certain way is outright revolutionary are you and a handful of others on this forum. I have not heard this in the real world- not once. Not from vegans, not from animal rights activists, not from bike riders, not from squatters and not from traveling folk. It's a hallucination for you and I'm sorry it's driving you mad.Well in Berkeley and San Francisco, it is the number one strategy of liberals: "I'm just doing my part". This is generally counter-posed to organizing or agitation and in my opinion is a sign of cynicism because they don't believe that political change can be won so they turn inward and focus only on individual things. Again, if someone is vegan but also organizing politically and not seeing people outside their lifestyle preference as "part of the problem" then they are not "lifestylists" and I have no political problem with that.


I figured it was a joke of some sort- I didn't get it. Explain?Sometimes people who are friendly like to kid each-other and make fun of eachother's haircut or shirt. I was trying to show that I have no beef so I made a little joke about the only "physical appearance" I can attribute to you.


I really don't want to see another thread go down the road of meat vs no meat so I'll just say that the idea that you and the handful of other people on this forum can't seem to get through your heads is that vegans and all the other categories you've created don't just 'sit at home and not eat meat' (do you realize how ridiculous you sound) they make up some of the most active members of various organizing communities across the planet. Yes I know many vegans, I have no problem with someone's choice in diet. I do have a problem if they blame individual meet eaters for the way capitalism organizes food production.


It feels like a new breed of womanizing sexism and something akin to racism the way that handful of people here discriminates against vegans, animal rights activists and the others based on an internally generated claim (from that group of people on here) that's a complete strawman and so full of nonsense it makes me wonder when the last time you walked outside was. The strawman here is that you keep accuseing me of hating people's lifestyles when I have no problem with any of it... the only criticism I have is with the idea that personal choices in what you buy or what pastimes you have present a challenge to capitalism or help organize people for self-conscious action against the system.


I direct you to the other meat vs no meat threads that pretty much summed up the global north's over consumption of meat as a direct link to various forms of severe ecological destruction.So workers decide how food is produced in capitalist countries? Workers pick out and vote on what toxic chemicals should be pumped into their food? US workers decide to have the worst food as the most affordable? US workers make the legislation on beef subsidies - this has nothing to do with capitalism?


I'm not arguing the car situation. I think certain people can choose better methods of transportation and in general we all should be considering this or should have been considering this a long time ago. We, humans, are destroying the planet by the way we live. We, humans, need to change the ways we live in order to stop this destruction. It's that simple. It's part of revolutionary thinking to stop and wonder- what could I do differently.Workers decided to get rid of public transportation in cities like Los Angeles and Phoenix AZ? Again, workers decided that since it is more profitable to build mass produced track housing that they would like to live in socially alienated suburbs where shopping centers are 4 miles away and large employers are 1/2 hour drive or more away? Workers decided that it's a good idea for most of the population to all go to work at exactly the same time so they have to sit on the freeway systems they designed idling in gridlock?

"Humans" are not the problem, humans would rather live sustainably, with nice places to live, no long commute to work, with fresh and healthy food, and so on. Capitalism is the problem because the profit motive is short-sighted. It is more profitable for corporations to make quick returns by overfishing a lake and then moving onto the next one than creating a more sustainable but more costly way of meeting needs.


I know many people that look different and live different who have organized some of the largest actions and demos in North America. Great. Why do you think I have a problem with people who "look different"?


Stop parroting the idea that it's one or the other- whether it's based on your personal guilt for standing against an entity then stuffing your face with it's goodies while they stuff their faces with your dollars- I don't know.Again, it's not one or the other - people should live however they want, but demanding that everyone adhere to a specific personal lifestyle or "they are part of the problem" is unproductive, divisive, and ultimately no challenge to capitalism.

As for goodies, that's insulting because I do not have health-care, I live paycheck to paycheck, my girlfriend has medical problems and also has no health-care and is in debt for the foreseeable future because of a couple of ambulance rides. I also don't have a car, but that's because I'm poor, not because it is a statement. But thanks for illustrating my point of how the logic of lifestylism leads people to blame workers (and all their "goodies") who have nothing to gain from the system for being "part of the problem".

[The Red Next Door]

Then again, aren't you, like, 15?

Are you trying to say?

[Ele'ill]

Except for the people in the local Critical Mass here who come to public events and denounce motorists for being the cause of the Iraq war. but if people think of cycling as a fun pass-time or the people in Critical Mass who use the event as a way to protest for bike lanes or whatnot, then I have no problem with it and do not consider it lifesylism.

I've never heard that from people involved with critical mass- the people you deal with are equivalent to any social anomaly. There aren't hoards of 'evil lifestylists' that do this.

I'd imagine if people actually said that verbatim than they're using the sudden extreme contrast as a reality check for people that drive vehicles. A lot of people don't associate war with resources and they don't associate foreign oil with their daily lives (they're fucking idiots but that's what we have to work with) so it becomes an affective tactic when used appropriately (and I'd argue in a non-excessive manner)





Is capitalism destroying the environment or is it being destroyed by people's individual greed?

Do working class people design US cities so that affordable housing is an hour away from where they work?

Do working class people design agriculture production so that farming is centralized in the hands of a few corporation that find it more profitable to use monoculture techniques, pesticides, and ship produce across the country by diesel truck?

Do working class people decide that clear-cutting is better than sustainable methods?

Do working class people decide to de-fund environmental agencies, remove environmental regulations, cut corners on oil rigs to save some money?

If the answer is no, then it is a structural change that must be made, not changes in people's personal choices.


What?


Your "What?" means you missed the point of my post. I understand the mechanisms that make capitalism dangerous but other people don't. You can't sit down with someone that's never read theory and practice and expect them to understand what you're saying. You have to show them how each of their decisions through out the day contributes to that toxic aspect of capitalism- it's much easier for them to understand and it's a damned good start for every activist to understand where their money goes and what they're supporting because the bottom line is that they are supporting- as in strengthening those companies that use exploitive standards- with their money.

There are plenty of alternatives for a variety of comfort levels.


Well in Berkeley and San Francisco, it is the number one strategy of liberals: "I'm just doing my part". This is generally counter-posed to organizing or agitation and in my opinion is a sign of cynicism because they don't believe that political change can be won so they turn inward and focus only on individual things. Again, if someone is vegan but also organizing politically and not seeing people outside their lifestyle preference as "part of the problem" then they are not "lifestylists" and I have no political problem with that.

I've never met a vegan, animal rights activist etc who didn't organize. If they organize for a specific purpose such as to expose a particular aspect of the meat industry or to oppose and win public support against industrial buildup on protected land then they are doing their part. They are no different than any other organizer and the people I know that participate in these activities care just as much about worker's rights.


Sometimes people who are friendly like to kid each-other and make fun of eachother's haircut or shirt. I was trying to show that I have no beef so I made a little joke about the only "physical appearance" I can attribute to you.

Yes, I am Pippi Longstocking.


Yes I know many vegans, I have no problem with someone's choice in diet. I do have a problem if they blame individual meet eaters for the way capitalism organizes food production.

Their beliefs go deeper than organizing food production.




The strawman here is that you keep accuseing me of hating people's lifestyles when I have no problem with any of it... the only criticism I have is with the idea that personal choices in what you buy or what pastimes you have present a challenge to capitalism or help organize people for self-conscious action against the system.

Another strawman from you. I have not once accused you of 'hating people's lifestyles'- not that in itself anyway- I have accused you of creating the most caricatured stereotypes and then claiming they make up the majority of group X (vegan, environmentalist, liberal etc) when they don't even exist to begin with. I've never met any of these people- ever.




So workers decide how food is produced in capitalist countries? Workers pick out and vote on what toxic chemicals should be pumped into their food? US workers decide to have the worst food as the most affordable? US workers make the legislation on beef subsidies - this has nothing to do with capitalism?

Yes, workers of some shape do make these decisions - what does this have to do with anything and you'll have to define worker.

My point (that you quoted) was that organizing means educating. The more informed people are about how their actions throughout any given day affect the world around them the more affective activism will be. Overconsumption of various products is a huge issue and if 90% (excluding those that already know) of the population knew where that burger came from and all the atrocities it contributed to we'd see a boom in grass roots activism. People are waiting to get mad- they don't know it but they are. They're like little solar cells waiting for that beam of education-as-truth to start charging their batteries.




Workers decided to get rid of public transportation in cities like Los Angeles and Phoenix AZ? Again, workers decided that since it is more profitable to build mass produced track housing that they would like to live in socially alienated suburbs where shopping centers are 4 miles away and large employers are 1/2 hour drive or more away? Workers decided that it's a good idea for most of the population to all go to work at exactly the same time so they have to sit on the freeway systems they designed idling in gridlock?


Workers decided this because they don't know any better because they don't know the power of their own individual decisions- on the job or in their personal life.

What are you suggesting? That workers don't make decisions and instead "Capitalism" makes decisions for them?






"Humans" are not the problem, humans would rather live sustainably, with nice places to live, no long commute to work, with fresh and healthy food, and so on. Capitalism is the problem because the profit motive is short-sighted. It is more profitable for corporations to make quick returns by overfishing a lake and then moving onto the next one than creating a more sustainable but more costly way of meeting needs.

And I don't put my money into those companies that make decisions like that. I put my money into companies that operate sustainably- and that network with other companies that do the same. Granted there aren't a lot of these companies in comparison but it's a hell of a lot better to get your daily needs (which almost all daily survival needs can be obtained) from sustainable industry.



Great. Why do you think I have a problem with people who "look different"?


It just seems like a leftist clique- with all your false accusations that the majority of vegans, bikers and environmentalists don't do anything else. It's silly and untrue.




Again, it's not one or the other - people should live however they want, but demanding that everyone adhere to a specific personal lifestyle or "they are part of the problem" is unproductive, divisive, and ultimately no challenge to capitalism.

First of all it isn't a demand, nobody is demanding it. It's a personal opinion that fighting against aspects of capitalism (which you have to do because you can't just fight 'capitalism' because 'capitalism' isn't just one thing, it's made up of many different industries and practices) such as sweatshops, unsustainable building, the food industry etc and then turning around after all that organizing work and giving them your fucking money is idiotic and completely avoidable.





As for goodies, that's insulting because I do not have health-care, I live paycheck to paycheck, my girlfriend has medical problems and also has no health-care and is in debt for the foreseeable future because of a couple of ambulance rides.

Better vote republican and anti socialized health care after your next pro socialized healthcare rally.



I also don't have a car, but that's because I'm poor, not because it is a statement. But thanks for illustrating my point of how the logic of lifestylism leads people to blame workers (and all their "goodies") who have nothing to gain from the system for being "part of the problem".

Better sit in on some town meetings and organize against more public transit- get some people together and spend all that time writing letters and then stand on the other corner on opposite days with a sign that says 'more public transit now!'.

[Adi Shankara]

First of all it isn't a demand, nobody is demanding it. It's a personal opinion that fighting against aspects of capitalism (which you have to do because you can't just fight 'capitalism' because 'capitalism' isn't just one thing, it's made up of many different industries and practices) such as sweatshops, unsustainable building, the food industry etc and then turning around after all that organizing work and giving them your fucking money is idiotic and completely avoidable.


Agreed; I think the thing about it is people often enough are tricked into thinking they have to be apart of this society 100% of the time, when if they make a few changes to it, they can reduce their dependance on widespread consumerism more and more.

If you're poor, you don't really have options, so they're usually the first eaten by capitalism, but if you're well off...then I don't think one has an excuse at that point.