Religion In Communism

[Comrade Stiefel]

Hello.

I believe in Freedom of Religion and the teaching of Christian Values to Children.

I believe that the Education of Children of Christian Values in our Communist Society will help to maintain Peace and Order, and to prevent Chaos and War.

I also believe in Freedom of Religion.

Discuss.

[IllicitPopsicle]

er...

[9]

What part of Washington state are you from, OP? Wouldn't happen to be Whidbey, would it? What with Robert Jay Mathews and all.

[AK]

I believe in Freedom of Religion and the teaching of Christian Values to Children.
Note the contradiction here: you say you believe in freedom of religion, yet you also believe in teaching specifically Christian values to children. That's effectively robbing children of their choice.

[9]

^he's a troll, bro.

[Comrade Stiefel]

Note the contradiction here: you say you believe in freedom of religion, yet you also believe in teaching specifically Christian values to children. That's effectively robbing children of their choice.
The purpose of teaching specifically Christian values to children is to provide the next generation with the qualities they need to successfully run a communist society.

[AK]

^he's a troll, bro.
We don't know that for sure, but some religious communists genuinely come on revleft to see if they can successfully mix the two contrasting concepts.

[AK]

The purpose of teaching specifically Christian values to children is to provide the next generation with the qualities they need to successfully run a communist society.
Even if that were true, the concept of exposing children to religious material essentially against their will is in direct opposition to the "freedom of religion" which you supposedly uphold.

[9]

We don't know that for sure, but some religious communists genuinely come on revleft to see if they can successfully mix the two contrasting concepts.

Do they usually put addresses linked to Stormfront on their profile pages?

[Comrade Stiefel]

Do they usually put addresses linked to Stormfront on their profile pages?
I took my address and phone number off at Alpha Kappa's request.

[AK]

Do they usually put addresses linked to Stormfront on their profile pages?
I didn't check out the address. I just saw it and for some fucked up reason thought it was legit. How's it linked to SF, anyway?

[Comrade Stiefel]

Let's get back on topic, here.

[Comrade Stiefel]

Even if that were true, the concept of exposing children to religious material essentially against their will is in direct opposition to the "freedom of religion" which you supposedly uphold.
It is only against the child's will if the child conveys the fact that they are unwilling. How are you so sure we are educating them against their will?

[AK]

Let's think about that for a minute.... no.

[AK]

It is only against the child's will if the child conveys the fact that they are unwilling. How are you so sure we are educating them against their will?
I believe they should have to consent. If you don't consent, you're not willing.

[AK]

But in effect they're not willing because they don't know what it truly is that they are signing up for.

[Comrade Stiefel]

I believe they should have to consent. If you don't consent, you're not willing.

But in effect they're not willing because they don't know what it truly is that they are signing up for.

What they're truly signing up for depends on the content which they are learning and the manner in which they are taught. It's their choice, regardless of whether or not they know what they're signing up for.

[AK]

What they're truly signing up for depends on the content which they are learning and the manner in which they are taught. It's their choice, regardless of whether or not they know what they're signing up for.
Oh they can be taught about Jesus, but they shouldn't be taught "hurrrrrrrr Jesus saves!"

[Comrade Stiefel]

Oh they can be taught about Jesus, but they shouldn't be taught "hurrrrrrrr Jesus saves!"
I believe that they should be taught about the life and teachings of God and Jesus, but the faith shouldn't be pushed on them.

[AK]

I believe that they should be taught about the life and teachings of God and Jesus, but the faith shouldn't be pushed on them.
Only from a neutral point of view. Now get back to stormfront.

[Comrade Stiefel]

Only from a neutral point of view. Now get back to stormfront.
As far as I know, Stormfronters are Pagan, not Christian. Why are you all of a sudden calling me a nazi?

[IllicitPopsicle]

Because you had a link to StormFront in your sig? I don't know about you, but for some here, that alone sets off some red flags... with little swastikas in the middle.

[AK]

As far as I know, Stormfronters are Pagan, not Christian.
Actually I was on SF once and a shitload of scumfronters were laughing at this lone christian Nazi. He was a fucking idiot. "The swastika was given to us whites by our father in heaven."

[Agnapostate]

Stormfronters vary. The majority of the self-described white nationalists are proponents of Anglo-Protestant cultural mores, however.

As to the topic, you do realize that children can be brainwashed into believing that their brainwashing was a good thing? Even if there's not open force or coercion employed to compel children to adopt religious beliefs, it's possible that adherence to particularly fundamentalist ones can impose an opportunity cost in that they cause them to have lives unhappier than those they would have had were they not brainwashed with superstition.

[Comrade Stiefel]

Because you had a link to StormFront in your sig? I don't know about you, but for some here, that alone sets off some red flags... with little swastikas in the middle.
My signature? I only posted an address in my profile. The address was attributed to the head of my church. I had no idea it was linked to Stormfront or even fascism for that matter. I will consider joining a different church.

[Comrade Stiefel]

Stormfronters vary. The majority of the self-described white nationalists are proponents of Anglo-Protestant cultural mores, however.

As to the topic, you do realize that children can be brainwashed into believing that their brainwashing was a good thing? Even if there's not open force or coercion employed to compel children to adopt religious beliefs, it's possible that adherence to particularly fundamentalist ones can impose an opportunity cost in that they cause them to have lives unhappier than those they would have had were they not brainwashed with superstition.
Please explain how "particularly fundamentalist" values can restrict opportunities for children. I only seek to educate children on religion to promote non-oppressive order in communist society.

[Agnapostate]

Please explain how "particularly fundamentalist" values can restrict opportunities for children. I only seek to educate children on religion to promote non-oppressive order in communist society.

First, I'm using the term opportunity cost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost) in its economic sense in that life dictated by authoritarian religious principles entails the sacrifice of the life that would have been experienced otherwise. An example would be the suppression of critical thought that religious indoctrination encourages, since children are not socialized to consciously select between theistic and atheistic beliefs, but rather saturated in religious ones from birth. Don't you see how that would be a problem when it comes to authoritarian political ideologies like fascism? A person is less likely to deviate from adherence to fascism after having been raised to believe in it without critical appraisal.

[Comrade Stiefel]

First, I'm using the term opportunity cost in its economic sense in that life dictated by authoritarian religious principles entails the sacrifice of the life that would have been experienced otherwise. An example would be the suppression of critical thought that religious indoctrination encourages, since children are not socialized to consciously select between theistic and atheistic beliefs, but rather saturated in religious ones from birth. Don't you see how that would be a problem when it comes to authoritarian political ideologies like fascism? A person is less likely to deviate from adherence to fascism after having been raised to believe in it without critical appraisal.
Some values hold more benefits to a society than others. For example, Christianity holds that people should love and forgive one another. This is beneficial to a communist society because it protects society from infighting and social division. If people are left to their own devices, then peoples' choices in belief will become too much for society to handle. For example, many people resort to racism and hate as a belief to uphold instead of forgiveness and love for one's fellow man. Thus, fascism is kept at bay.

[AK]

Some values hold more benefits to a society than others. For example, Christianity holds that people should love and forgive one another. This is beneficial to a communist society because it protects society from infighting and social division. If people are left to their own devices, then peoples' choices in belief will become too much for society to handle. For example, many people resort to racism and hate as a belief to uphold instead of forgiveness and love for one's fellow man. Thus, fascism is kept at bay.
The points you mentioned are usually adopted anyway by communists and the like. Christianity also teaches homophobia, sexism and blind submission to authority.

[IllicitPopsicle]

Will you be teaching Islam? Buddhism? The Gaia theory? as well?

If not, then you're not giving the kids a choice at all. Children see grown-ups as authority figures, great looming gods with their heads all the way in the sky and 500 feet tall. They don't see "options;" if an adult tells a child to do something or learn something or whatever, said child is going to do it, and generally without argument. They are not going to rationalize: "Hmm, well, the teacher is giving me an option to read about Jesus; however, I don't really want to, as I'm not feeling in the mood. I want to learn instead about Shintoism."

Most communists (and nearly ALL of the Anarchists I know) distrust religion because of the close and cuddly relationship it's had to capitalism and the State; and let's not forget all those murders committed in the name of God or Jesus!

On a less serious note, I would compare a "christian communist" to a "christian metal" band: You're going through all the motions correctly, but somewhere, something just doesn't feel right.

[Comrade Stiefel]

The points you mentioned are usually adopted anyway by communists and the like. Christianity also teaches homophobia, sexism and blind submission to authority.
Freedom of speech allows pretty much everyone to express their opinion, even fascists and the like. To curb fascism without sacrificing free speech, we need to educate children about Christian values.


Will you be teaching Islam? Buddhism? The Gaia theory? as well?

If not, then you're not giving the kids a choice at all. Children see grown-ups as authority figures, great looming gods with their heads all the way in the sky and 500 feet tall. They don't see "options;" if an adult tells a child to do something or learn something or whatever, said child is going to do it, and generally without argument. They are not going to rationalize: "Hmm, well, the teacher is giving me an option to read about Jesus; however, I don't really want to, as I'm not feeling in the mood. I want to learn instead about Shintoism."

Most communists (and nearly ALL of the Anarchists I know) distrust religion because of the close and cuddly relationship it's had to capitalism and the State; and let's not forget all those murders committed in the name of God or Jesus!

On a less serious note, I would compare a "christian communist" to a "christian metal" band: You're going through all the motions correctly, but somewhere, something just doesn't feel right.
I would agree with you on the notion that other options should be given to students, but the education of other faiths should remain under the jurisdiction of the caretaker of the child. However, if everyone at least has knowledge of Christian values, then religious in-fighting should be restricted if not totally shut out from society.

Murders committed in the name of Christ were not truly Christian. They were, for the most part, ordered by popes and kings, which would make such acts more attributable to the Catholic Church than to the faith itself.

[Agnapostate]

Some values hold more benefits to a society than others. For example, Christianity holds that people should love and forgive one another. This is beneficial to a communist society because it protects society from infighting and social division. If people are left to their own devices, then peoples' choices in belief will become too much for society to handle. For example, many people resort to racism and hate as a belief to uphold instead of forgiveness and love for one's fellow man. Thus, fascism is kept at bay.

I specifically mentioned authoritarian facets of Christianity and religious traditions more generally, however. If we considered restrictive social codes such as mandating chastity and censoring all sorts of media that were considered "impure," it's easy to see how people, when brainwashed into willing adherence to this social code, could lead unhappier lives than they would have led otherwise.


Freedom of speech allows pretty much everyone to express their opinion, even fascists and the like. To curb fascism without sacrificing free speech, we need to educate children about Christian values.

No, we need to educate children about critical thinking and analysis. I honestly don't believe that the majority of the population could win a debate with a fascist, because their indoctrination that fascism was wrong (which is true), still didn't endow them with critical thinking skills that could have led them to an independent conclusion that fascism was wrong through their own appraisal.

[Agnapostate]

Murders committed in the name of Christ were not truly Christian.

Why do you say that? Murder finds very clear endorsement in the Old Testament (which the New Testament reports Christ affirmed, stating that he had not come to replace the law and the prophets), which is the foundation for the Abrahamic religions. It seems to be in line with actual tenets.


They were, for the most part, ordered by popes and kings, which would make such acts more attributable to the Catholic Church than to the faith itself.

This is factionalism on your part. The nature of religious traditions are determined by the active interpretation and practices of their adherents.

[IllicitPopsicle]

I would agree with you on the notion that other options should be given to students, but the education of other faiths should remain under the jurisdiction of the caretaker of the child. However, if everyone at least has knowledge of Christian values, then religious in-fighting should be restricted if not totally shut out from society.


No. I refute this wholeheartedly. While I accept, as an atheist, that knowledge of world religions is extremely useful (and in some cases, damn interesting), I will not concede that any religion - especially in a communistic society - deserves a higher standing in that society. I wouldn't care if you're talking about Hinduism or Christianity, no religion should enjoy special treatment - especially not in education.

And honestly, there's no evidence that learning Christianity would help at all in a war against Fascism. Like Agnapostate said, critical thinking skills should be viewed as more important.

[Comrade Stiefel]

I specifically mentioned authoritarian facets of Christianity and religious traditions more generally, however. If we considered restrictive social codes such as mandating chastity and censoring all sorts of media that were considered "impure," it's easy to see how people, when brainwashed into willing adherence to this social code, could lead unhappier lives than they would have led otherwise.

What may be good to an individual may not be good to other people. The goal of Christianity (and religion as a whole) is to set rules and guidelines that allow the collective to enjoy life in the long term, and to maintain order in society.


No, we need to educate children about critical thinking and analysis. I honestly don't believe that the majority of the population could win a debate with a fascist, because their indoctrination that fascism was wrong (which is true), still didn't endow them with critical thinking skills that could have led them to an independent conclusion that fascism was wrong through their own appraisal.

When it is all said and done, rhetoric and indoctrination have more value than critical thinking and analysis because, as indoctrination has consistant results and works for the majority of the population. Critical thought, on the other hand, only works for a select few who are interested in such activity, and even then, results vary greatly from person to person. Fascism and capitalism both derive from critical thought just as communism does. People percieve their environments differenyly, thus, recieve different results from thought.

[Comrade Stiefel]

Why do you say that? Murder finds very clear endorsement in the Old Testament (which the New Testament reports Christ affirmed, stating that he had not come to replace the law and the prophets), which is the foundation for the Abrahamic religions. It seems to be in line with actual tenets.



This is factionalism on your part. The nature of religious traditions are determined by the active interpretation and practices of their adherents.
What I meant was that the murders were not committed for the faith in general, but for the good of the Catholic Chirch, and the several different kingoms that were subservient to it.

[Comrade Stiefel]

No. I refute this wholeheartedly. While I accept, as an atheist, that knowledge of world religions is extremely useful (and in some cases, damn interesting), I will not concede that any religion - especially in a communistic society - deserves a higher standing in that society. I wouldn't care if you're talking about Hinduism or Christianity, no religion should enjoy special treatment - especially not in education.

And honestly, there's no evidence that learning Christianity would help at all in a war against Fascism. Like Agnapostate said, critical thinking skills should be viewed as more important.
As I said, Christianity will prevent in-fighting and divisions between members of our movement. Religions contradict each other, and we should not confuse our children by teaching the values of the hundreds of religions that exist thruout the world.

[IllicitPopsicle]

As I said, Christianity will prevent in-fighting and divisions between members of our movement. Religions contradict each other, and we should not confuse our children by teaching the values of the hundreds of religions that exist thruout the world.

:O

</facepalm>

You're missing the point of this whole "communism" thing. Post-revolutionary society isn't supposed to be homogeneous. The object of the game is not to indoctrinate people in the ancient art of oppression - it's to get people to break free from oppression.

[Luisrah]

As I said, Christianity will prevent in-fighting and divisions between members of our movement. Religions contradict each other, and we should not confuse our children by teaching the values of the hundreds of religions that exist thruout the world.

We should not confuse them? So your religion is better than all the others.
You think your religion deserves priority and should be the one true faith. If everyone thinks like you, we'll be back to the crusades in no time.

Imposing the ''one true faith'' on children isn't good. Either you make them choose from all (when they can already decide for themselves, meaning, when they have developed a critical mind) or you don't teach him any, and if he wants to learn about them, he'll do it himself.

[Comrade Stiefel]

:O

</facepalm>

You're missing the point of this whole "communism" thing. Post-revolutionary society isn't supposed to be homogeneous. The object of the game is not to indoctrinate people in the ancient art of oppression - it's to get people to break free from oppression.

Christianity is not an oppressive religion. Christian oppression is a product of the Catholic Church. Christianity teaches forgiveness and love of one's fellow man. Homogeny has nothing to do with it.

[Comrade Stiefel]

We should not confuse them? So your religion is better than all the others.
You think your religion deserves priority and should be the one true faith. If everyone thinks like you, we'll be back to the crusades in no time.

Imposing the ''one true faith'' on children isn't good. Either you make them choose from all (when they can already decide for themselves, meaning, when they have developed a critical mind) or you don't teach him any, and if he wants to learn about them, he'll do it himself.

The crusades were nothing more than the bourgeois Catholic Curch seeking to expand its economic and political dominance.

If we teach the children about all religions, then we only waste time that can be spent learning other subjects, such as history or mathematics. Like I said, the people are welcome to worship any faith they like, but only Christianity needs to be formally addressed.

[IllicitPopsicle]

And in a larger communo-christian society, where, as you say, "Christianity will prevent in-fighting and divisions between members of our movement," what would happen to the atheists? The Muslims? The Buddhists? If, as you say, the presence of these beliefs would only serve to confuse the children, then would there not be any other option than to snuff out the ones practicing those faiths?

Honestly, after a revolution, the last thing I would want is more religious zealots telling me how to think.

[Comrade Stiefel]

And in a larger communo-christian society, where, as you say, "Christianity will prevent in-fighting and divisions between members of our movement," what would happen to the atheists? The Muslims? The Buddhists? If, as you say, the presence of these beliefs would only serve to confuse the children, then would there not be any other option than to snuff out the ones practicing those faiths?

Honestly, after a revolution, the last thing I would want is more religious zealots telling me how to think.

It is up to the people to decide what to do with non-Christians. Although the end result will probably be a mass genocide of non-Christians, it is important that we don't opperss the people further by interfering, therefore oppressing the people.

[IllicitPopsicle]

And this is where I call shenanigans.

Killing fellow revolutionaries is not unheard-of in the bloody histories of the socialist/communist/anarchist struggle, but being sentenced to death based solely on one's faith? No. You're a fascist, and most likely a troll.

[Comrade Stiefel]

You're a fascist, and most likely a troll.
Please substantiate this claim. I do not support genocide, its just that this would likely be the result.

[AK]

The crusades were nothing more than the bourgeois Catholic Curch seeking to expand its economic and political dominance.
Because the Bourgeoisie were the ruling class in feudal times, of course :laugh:

[Urko]

Please substantiate this claim. I do not support genocide, its just that this would likely be the result.
-
wait... so, you're just accepting that? Why just NOT do what you're saying and spare the genocide...

All religions have some kinda good meaning just like Christianity, but all were more or less forgotten.

[Comrade Stiefel]

Alright. Let's look at the definition of "fascist," as it is given to us by that great information database, Wikipedia.
Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/, is a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology.[1][2][3][4] Fascists seek to organize a nation according to corporatist perspectives, values, and systems, including the political system and the economy.[5][6] Fascism was originally founded by Italian national syndicalists in World War I who combined left-wing and right-wing political views, but it gravitated to the political right in the early 1920s.[7][8] Scholars generally consider fascism to be on the far right of the conventional left-right political spectrum.[9][10][11][12][13][14] Fascists believe that a nation is an organic community that requires strong leadership, singular collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong.[15] They claim that culture is created by the collective national society and its state, that cultural ideas are what give individuals identity, and thus they reject individualism.[15] Viewing the nation as an integrated collective community, they see pluralism as a dysfunctional aspect of society, and justify a totalitarian state as a means to represent the nation in its entirety.[16][17] They advocate the creation of a single-party state.[18] Fascists reject and resist the autonomy of cultural or ethnic groups who are not considered part of the fascists' nation and who refuse to assimilate or are unable to be assimilated.[19] They consider attempts to create such autonomy as an affront and a threat to the nation.[19] Fascist governments forbid and suppress opposition to the fascist state and the fascist movement.[20] They identify violence and war as actions that create national regeneration, spirit and vitality.[21]



Then I can't be a fascist because I am anti-Statist, anti-racist, and seek to eliminate the money system in exchange for a communist gift economy.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

Please substantiate this claim.

*Points to this thread*

You don't need Religion in order to stop people infighting, and even you seem to believe that, if Religion were to succeed, there would be a mass genocide before people stop infighting.
To sum up... your vision of Christian Communism is theocratical rule where you are brainwashed at an early age to submit to the will of the almighty or dumped into a mass grave by a blood thirsty mob of closed minded zealots. Cool idea bro.

[IllicitPopsicle]

Substantiate my claims? You literally just sat there and told me that Christianity is the only religion that should be emphasized on in schools, and that a mass killing of non-Christians would most likely take place in the event that your "communist christian" society ever existed.

[Comrade Stiefel]

That still doesn't explain how I'm a fash.

[Urko]

That still doesn't explain why should Christianity be forced into our lives.

[Comrade Stiefel]

That still doesn't explain why should Christianity be forced into our lives.
That was explained throughout the thread.

[Urko]

That was explained throughout the thread.
I see, but why not teach the good values without the Jesus part and all the miracles and stuff like that. Also, why Christianity, all religions pretty much support the same values.

[Comrade Stiefel]

I see, but why not teach the good values without the Jesus part and all the miracles and stuff like that. Also, why Christianity, all religions pretty much support the same values.
Because we don't need to confuse the populace by teaching them contradicting concepts.

[Urko]

Because we don't need to confuse the populace by teaching them contradicting concepts.
the values aren't contradicting.

Christianity holds that people should love and forgive one another
I hear that's with every religion.
-
But why Christianity, why not teach only *some other religion* for example?
Actually, why don't we teach just the values and skip the crap about god, satan, going to hell if you lie and stuff like that-

[Comrade Stiefel]

the values aren't contradicting.

I hear that's with every religion.
-
But why Christianity, why not teach only *some other religion* for example?
Actually, why don't we teach just the values and skip the crap about god, satan, going to hell if you lie and stuff like that-
Because biblical stories hold morals and teaching that a basic overview of the faith just doesn't cover. Also, there are hundreds of religions in the world, and most of them reject Christian teachings of forgiveness and love of the common man.

[leftace53]

In all of your posts, you could replace "christianity" with any other religion out there, and the statement will still make sense (or you know, not make sense). You have given no reason to teach christianity over other religions, apart from a "contradiction". Well contradiction wouldn't arise if we only taught say buddhism, and omitted christianity all together.

All in all I call troll. (See, I rhyme!)

[Urko]

Thread name is religion in communism, but I see that you only support Christianity...


hundreds of religions in the world, and most of them reject Christian teachings of forgiveness and love of the common man.
I was talking about the biggest ones...
-

Because biblical stories hold morals and teaching that a basic overview of the faith just doesn't cover
It's like reading a story to your child that has a moral teaching, but Christians believe that is true, right? And by the looks of it, every one who doesn't believe, will go to hell? I see that as a way to keep your customers... err, I mean followers/believers... Christianity(other religions too) doesn't give you a choice, believe or go to hell.

[Comrade Stiefel]

Thread name is religion in communism, but I see that you only support Christianity...

As I have said before, I am anti-Statist, anti-racist, and pro-communist.



I was talking about the biggest ones...

These religions (at least in the Western world) have been oversimplified and secularized by the capitalist to be pretty much the same. They turned the Church into McDonalds.


It's like reading a story to your child that has a moral teaching, but Christians believe that is true, right? And by the looks of it, every one who doesn't believe, will go to hell? I see that as a way to keep your customers... err, I mean followers/believers... Christianity(other religions too) doesn't give you a choice, believe or go to hell.
As I have said before, I believe in free religion, but see Christianity as the only religion important enough to be a part of mainstream education.

[Urko]

As I have said before, I believe in free religion, but see Christianity as the only religion important enough to be a part of mainstream education.
Religions shouldn't invade every aspect of peoples lives. The values you're talking about can be taught to children by their family. But without the 'you're going to hell if you don't agree'(and such) part... so I guess if wouldn't be a religion. Just common sense to teach your children not to steal, kill etc. ...

[Comrade Stiefel]

Religions shouldn't invade every aspect of peoples lives. The values you're talking about can be taught to children by their family. But without the 'you're going to hell if you don't agree'(and such) part... so I guess if wouldn't be a religion. Just common sense to teach your children not to steal, kill etc. ...

This is exactly what we're promoting. There are some families that teach their children to murder and steal (trust me I've witnessed it). We can't rely too much on the caretakers of children. We need to teach people about the faith to prevent infighting in society.

[Obs]

I can't believe I'm doing this.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

You may stop calling yourself a communist now.

[Urko]

This is exactly what we're promoting. There are some families that teach their children to murder and steal (trust me I've witnessed it). We can't rely too much on the caretakers of children. We need to teach people about the faith to prevent infighting in society.
Could we teach that without the 'You're going to hell if you think otherwise' crap?


You may stop calling yourself a communist now.
He's calling himself a Christian communist

[Obs]

He's calling himself a Christian communist
Which is an oxymoron in and of itself.

EDIT: In the sense that communism seizes to be communism once you infuse it with religious idealism. People can have whatever personal religious beliefs they want.

[Comrade Stiefel]

Could we teach that without the 'You're going to hell if you think otherwise' crap?


He's calling himself a Christian communist
The concept of hell is a vital part of Christian belief and teaching.

[Urko]

Which is an oxymoron in and of itself.
That quote of Marx you posted was about religion, not about communism... So he is actually a Christian communist, but he is not Marxist, right? discus

[DecDoom]

The concept of hell is a vital part of Christian belief and teaching.

Exactly, because if children learn that questioning the one true faith sends them straight to a realm of eternal suffering, they won't question, right?

[samofshs]

We don't know that for sure, but some religious communists genuinely come on revleft to see if they can successfully mix the two contrasting concepts.
i run a whole group of genuine christian leftists. i myself am a christian and a communist and do not believe that he two concepts contrast each other at all. try reading through the bible with an open mind, you'll see how compatible the two are.

[Urko]

The concept of hell is a vital part of Christian belief and teaching.
I know it is, without it people wouldn't be afraid to NOT believe and wouldn't be afraid to think with their own head.
What does the concept of hell teach us anyway? I understand that good deeds are rewarded and bad one's are punished, but being punished eternally just because you disagree... I think theres an ISM for that

[Comrade Stiefel]

Exactly, because if children learn that questioning the one true faith sends them straight to a realm of eternal suffering, they won't question, right?

I know it is, without it people wouldn't be afraid to NOT believe and wouldn't be afraid to think with their own head.
What does the concept of hell teach us anyway? I understand that good deeds are rewarded and bad one's are punished, but being punished eternally just because you disagree... I think theres an ISM for that

It teaches that there are consequences for one's actions.

[Obs]

That quote of Marx you posted was about religion, not about communism... So he is actually a Christian communist, but he is not Marxist, right? discus
True, you can view it that way. I guess my reaction was a bit rushed.

Stiefel, could you tell us why you think Christianity will do anything to prevent crime and disorder, and can you give an example of a point in history where it ever has?


It teaches that there are consequences for one's actions.
So does a normal, secular system of crime and punishment. Are you literally making as little an effort as possible to substantiate your claims?

[Raúl Duke]

Hello.

I believe in Freedom of Religion and the teaching of Christian Values to Children.

I believe that the Education of Children of Christian Values in our Communist Society will help to maintain Peace and Order, and to prevent Chaos and War.

I also believe in Freedom of Religion.

Discuss.

*facepalm*

Under communism, I imagine that religion will be left solely to the private sphere. I doubt there will be any expansion of churches, since I doubt the communes will waste resources on building new ones. Current trends show a decline in religiosity in the 1st world and I foresee this trend to continue under a communist society.

Also, one point (freedom of religion) contradicts the other (mandatory education of christian values). Also, there's no evidence that these "values" maintain "Peace and Order" or prevent "War and Chaos."

[samofshs]

also, keep in mind that not all christians believe the same thing. for example, i believe that G d reveals himself in nature and in man (romans 2:14-15) and that everyone can percieve these characteristics (ps.19:2-4).

[Urko]

It teaches that there are consequences for one's actions.
Yes, but it also teaches us that we will suffer eternally if we don't believe in god and Jesus.

[Muzk]

Lolwut.


We teach the revolutionary youth to become good communists, self-thinking individuals, with love for their own class and hatred towards any oppression.

We don't need gods, it's just wasted time. God doesn't exist anyways, so why care about it.

TL;DR: gtfo christian

[samofshs]

I know it is, without it people wouldn't be afraid to NOT believe and wouldn't be afraid to think with their own head.
What does the concept of hell teach us anyway? I understand that good deeds are rewarded and bad one's are punished, but being punished eternally just because you disagree... I think theres an ISM for that
there's a book i think you should read, "How Should We Then Live" by Francis Schaeffer. it shows how christianity can have a logical base and how you should question everything. well written too.

[Raúl Duke]

We can't rely too much on the caretakers of children. We need to teach people about the faith to prevent infighting in society.

Did you know that statistics show that in the U.S., the most religious states have higher poverty, lower educational attainment, more crime, etc than the more secular states in the U.S.?

[Comrade Stiefel]

also, keep in mind that not all christians believe the same thing. for example, i believe that G d reveals himself in nature and in man (romans 2:14-15) and that everyone can percieve these characteristics (ps.19:2-4).

I support Prodestant Lutherism as the dominant form of Christianity.


True, you can view it that way. I guess my reaction was a bit rushed.

Stiefel, could you tell us why you think Christianity will do anything to prevent crime and disorder, and can you give an example of a point in history where it ever has?


So does a normal, secular system of crime and punishment. Are you literally making as little an effort as possible to substantiate your claims?


*facepalm*

Under communism, I imagine that religion will be left solely to the private sphere. I doubt there will be any expansion of churches, since I doubt the communes will waste resources on building new ones.

Also, one point (freedom of religion) contradicts the other (mandatory education of christian values). Also, there's no evidence that these "values" maintain "Peace and Order" or prevent "War and Chaos."
Since the main goals of Christianity are forgiveness and love for one's fellow man, it is only natural that the teaching of Christian values would prevent in-fighting between members of society.

[Raúl Duke]

If we teach the children about all religions, then we only waste time that can be spent learning other subjects, such as history or mathematics. Like I said, the people are welcome to worship any faith they like, but only Christianity needs to be formally addressed.


It is up to the people to decide what to do with non-Christians. Although the end result will probably be a mass genocide of non-Christians, it is important that we don't opperss the people further by interfering, therefore oppressing the people.

Farewell, troll. Hope you like OI

[samofshs]

Lolwut.


We teach the revolutionary youth to become good communists, self-thinking individuals, with love for their own class and hatred towards any oppression.

We don't need gods, it's just wasted time. God doesn't exist anyways, so why care about it.

TL;DR: gtfo christian
no need to be rude, i believe at least I was being polite and it seemed to me as if the other christian here was too. i mean, why would you say such things to your comrade? the revolution can never come if we have all this infighting. try to be more polite please?

[Comrade Stiefel]

Did you know that statistics show that in the U.S., the most religious states have higher poverty, lower educational attainment, more crime, etc than the more secular states in the U.S.?
Great. Now connect these problems to the faith itself.

[Obs]

I support Prodestant Lutherism as the dominant form of Christianity. The fact that you can't spell "protestant" makes me suspect you're a troll.



Since the main goals of Christianity are forgiveness and love for one's fellow man...
Yet you believe it'll most likely lead to a "mass genocide" against all non-Christians.



no need to be rude, i believe at least I was being polite and it seemed to me as if the other christian here was too. i mean, why would you say such things to your comrade? the revolution can never come if we have all this infighting. try to be more polite please?
He supports something that he believes will result in all of us who aren't Christians getting killed.

[Urko]

there's a book i think you should read, "How Should We Then Live" by Francis Schaeffer. it shows how christianity can have a logical base and how you should question everything. well written too.
I'll make sure I read it :)


We teach the revolutionary youth to become good communists, self-thinking individuals, with love for their own class and hatred towards any oppression.

We don't need gods, it's just wasted time. God doesn't exist anyways, so why care about it.

TL;DR: gtfo christian
I still think this is a good discussion and should continue. I'm the revolutionary youth and I find this topic informative...

[Raúl Duke]

Christianity is not an oppressive religion. Christian oppression is a product of the Catholic Church. Christianity teaches forgiveness and love of one's fellow man. Homogeny has nothing to do with it. Explain this
The protestant church has in times aligned with the Nazis against the Jews.

The protestant church, in some cases, particularly in the South, have been against Civil Rights for blacks (and the end of slavery prior).

The protestant churches in the U.S. have at times supported war against other countries and the idea of American exceptionalism.

The founder of the first protestant sect was a virulent anti-semite.

U.S. churches has influenced churches and politcians in Uganda to create an anti-homosexual law.

In the U.S. most christian churches are against rights for homosexuals


Great. Now connect these problems to the faith itself. It's only a correlation. Correlations don't exactly prove anything per se except point out "something is up and needs more research into."

[Comrade Stiefel]

The fact that you can't spell "protestant" makes me suspect you're a troll.

Sorry. Typo.


Yet you believe it'll most likely lead to a "mass genocide" against all non-Christians.



He supports something that he believes will result in all of us who aren't Christians getting killed.

Only if it's what the people want.

[samofshs]

True, you can view it that way. I guess my reaction was a bit rushed.

Stiefel, could you tell us why you think Christianity will do anything to prevent crime and disorder, and can you give an example of a point in history where it ever has?


So does a normal, secular system of crime and punishment. Are you literally making as little an effort as possible to substantiate your claims?
right now we have a secular system of crime and punishment, but i still got my house robbed. i still get beat up for my race. people still smoke pot everywhere (i'm not against smoking, but it is breaking the law), people get away with whatever they wan because a system that is in place without christian values does not have a firm base on which to stand, we saw this in ancient rome. G d doesn't let things slip through the cracks because he doesn't see them, G d is omnipotent. G d sees and knows everything.

[Obs]

Sorry. Typo.
Considering you've spelled it with a D the whole time you've been here, no.


Only if it's what the people want.
By the same logic, at the moment the vast majority of Americans want capitalism. So, obviously, you must support capitalism, since it's what the people want. Ipso facto, you are not a communist.

[samofshs]

Explain this
The protestant church has in times aligned with the Nazis against the Jews.

The protestant church, in some cases, particularly in the South, have been against Civil Rights for blacks (and the end of slavery prior).

The protestant churches in the U.S. have at times supported war against other countries and the idea of American exceptionalism.

The founder of the first protestant sect was a virulent anti-semite.

U.S. churches has influenced churches and politcians in Uganda to create an anti-homosexual law.

In the U.S. most christian churches are against rights for homosexuals

It's only a correlation. Correlations don't exactly prove anything per se except point out "something is up and needs more research into."
please don't lump us all together under the same churches. i don't even attend a church and i don't believe that any of the religious instituions that are in place currently have got it quite right. i have my own set of beliefs that i believe to be non-oppressive and very compatible with leftism.

[Comrade Stiefel]

Considering you've spelled it with a D the whole time you've been here, no.


By the same logic, at the moment the vast majority of Americans want capitalism. So, obviously, you must support capitalism, since it's what the people want. Ipso facto, you are not a communist.
Implying that most people are American.

[Obs]

right now we have a secular system of crime and punishment, but i still got my house robbed. i still get beat up for my race. people still smoke pot everywhere (i'm not against smoking, but it is breaking the law),
True, I didn't mean "crime and punishment" as such, I just wanted to shut up Stiefel...

people get away with whatever they wan because a system that is in place without christian values does not have a firm base on which to stand, we saw this in ancient rome. G d doesn't let things slip through the cracks because he doesn't see them, G d is omnipotent. G d sees and knows everything.
Oh, for fuck's sake.

[samofshs]

The fact that you can't spell "protestant" makes me suspect you're a troll.



Yet you believe it'll most likely lead to a "mass genocide" against all non-Christians.



He supports something that he believes will result in all of us who aren't Christians getting killed.
now when did he say he wanted that? your logical fallacies are just getting to be too much for this conversation to handle.

[Raúl Duke]

(i'm not against smoking, but it is breaking the law),:rolleyes:
When did self-described revolutionaries/radicals were suppose to give a rat's ass against the laws of a bourgeois state?
I must've missed that memo.


right now we have a secular system of crime and punishmentI fail to see how this would make a christian legal code more successful. Crime comes from social phenomenon like poverty, not from lack of "christian values."


G d doesn't let things slip through the cracks because he doesn't see them, G d is omnipotent. G d sees and knows everything. and g d most likely doesn't exist.

[samofshs]

True, I didn't mean "crime and punishment" as such, I just wanted to shut up Stiefel...

Oh, for fuck's sake.
so basically what your telling me is that you don't have arguments based in logic anymore, and you just want to argue for the sake of arguments? i mean correct me if i'm wrong but i don't think that that's what revleft is about. i believe that's defined as trolling.

[Obs]

Implying that most people are American.
>Implying you know how to greentext
>Implying this meme is appropriate to use here
>Implying my argument is invalid

I think you'll still find that only an exorbitantly small minority of people in the world want your brand of Christian 'communism'. So obviously you're a hypocrite if you support that, since it's not what 'the people' want.

[Raúl Duke]

please don't lump us all together under the same churches. i don't even attend a church and i don't believe that any of the religious instituions that are in place currently have got it quite right. i have my own set of beliefs that i believe to be non-oppressive and very compatible with leftism. I don't care about ideas as an abstraction, I only care about what social impact said ideas have. Christianity in the U.S. today has had a mostly reactionary social impact throughout its history, with only small good examples to boast about relative to all the negative.

[samofshs]

:rolleyes:
When did self-described revolutionaries/radicals were suppose to give a rat's ass against the laws of a bourgeois state?
I must've missed that memo.

I fail to see how this would make a christian legal code more successful. Crime comes from social phenomenon like poverty, not from lack of "christian values."

and g d most likely doesn't exist.
1. i dont care that it's against the law, i was merely pointing out that people DO break the law in the current system. if it doesn't work, fix it now.

2. if you look at even just the tn commandments, you can see how instilling such values in people could reduce crime greatly by preventing poverty and other such social phenomenon to begin with.

[Obs]

[Talking about logic.]


G d doesn't let things slip through the cracks because he doesn't see them, G d is omnipotent. G d sees and knows everything.
:rolleyes:


now when did he say he wanted that? your logical fallacies are just getting to be too much for this conversation to handle.


It is up to the people to decide what to do with non-Christians. Although the end result will probably be a mass genocide of non-Christians, it is important that we don't opperss the people further by interfering, therefore oppressing the people.

[samofshs]

I don't care about ideas as an abstraction, I only care about what social impact said ideas have. Christianity in the U.S. today has had a mostly reactionary social impact throughout its history, with only small good examples to boast about relative to all the negative.
granted you're talking about mainstream christianity as an organisation, not as a set of values. we dont all believe the same thing, therefore all our beliefs won't have the same social impact.

[Raúl Duke]

if you look at even just the tn commandments, you can see how instilling such values in people could reduce crime greatly by preventing poverty and other such social phenomenon to begin with. I've seen those commandments
Crime is connected to poverty, not religiosity; I don't see any proof that it will "prevent poverty" in the first place unless somehow the 10 commandments magically provides more high-paying-jobs and/or increase educational access.

[Comrade Stiefel]

>Implying you know how to greentext
>Implying this meme is appropriate to use here
>Implying my argument is invalid

I think you'll still find that only an exorbitantly small minority of people in the world want your brand of Christian 'communism'. So obviously you're a hypocrite if you support that, since it's not what 'the people' want.

By your logic, you're actually against the will of the people since most Americans are against Marxism.

[samofshs]

:rolleyes:
there are two words i'd like you to add to your vocabulary. "tongue" and "cheek"

[Obs]

By your logic, you're actually against the will of the people since most Americans are against Marxism.
I am. Being for the interests of the working class does not mean being for "the will of the people". Communism isn't populism.


there are two words i'd like you to add to your vocabulary. "tongue" and "cheek"
HEY GUYS I WAS KIDDING I'M NOT ACTUALLY THAT DUMB PLEASE TAKE ME SERIOUSLY AGAIN

[Comrade Stiefel]

I am. Being for the interests of the working class does not mean being for "the will of the people". Communism isn't populism.
The people want their own good, it's just that most people don't know what that is.

[samofshs]

I am. Being for the interests of the working class does not mean being for "the will of the people". Communism isn't populism.
i agree and would like to take this opportunity to point out how i disagree with the other christian here. if the mass of the population wants a non-christian genocide, i will stand in the way because it doesn't agree with what i see the word of G d says.

[Obs]

The people want their own good, it's just that most people don't know what that is.
Your consistent failure to consider the working class rather than some idealist concept of "the people" speaks volumes about you, "comrade".

[Comrade Stiefel]

i agree and would like to take this opportunity to point out how i disagree with the other christian here. if the mass of the population wants a non-christian genocide, i will stand in the way because it doesn't agree with what i see the word of G d says.
You are free to do so just as the Christian zealots have the right to fight for their faith. It's all legal.


Your consistent failure to consider the working class rather than some idealist concept of "the people" speaks volumes about you, "comrade".
Talk about calling the kettle black.

[Thirsty Crow]

You are free to do so just as the Christian zealots have the right to fight for their faith. It's all legal.
Restriction? Ban?

Damn trolls.

[Obs]

Talk about calling the kettle black.
Please tell me when I considered "the people" rather than the working class.

[Urko]

how are we going to deal with these people after the revolution?

[samofshs]

Your consistent failure to consider the working class rather than some idealist concept of "the people" speaks volumes about you, "comrade".
just dont abuse the word comrade. it's the one thing we all share, we're all fighting the same war.

[Obs]

how are we going to deal with these people after the revolution?
Up against the wall.

[Comrade Stiefel]

Please tell me when I considered "the people" rather than the working class.
Nothing directly related, but I managed to find this gem.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1794591&postcount=75

[samofshs]

how are we going to deal with these people after the revolution?
which people?

[Obs]

Nothing directly related, but I managed to find this gem.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1794591&postcount=75
From a thread you didn't read, you idiot. I was mocking someone who had said exactly that.

[Comrade Stiefel]

From a thread you didn't read, you idiot. I was mocking someone who had said exactly that.
Flaming is a form of trolling, you know.

[Urko]

which people?
I was referring to comrade and all the religious zealots that hope for a non-Christian genocide

[samofshs]

Up against the wall.
so you're talking about murdering people for their religion? i didn't think a communist society would approve of such things. or should we support such things? should we just murder all athiests in america so they stop trying to disturb our personal peace? i dont think so...

[Comrade Stiefel]

I was referring to comrade and all the religious zealots that hope for a non-Christian genocide
I directly said that I did not want any genocide.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

so you're talking about murdering people for their religion? i didn't think a communist society would approve of such things. or should we support such things? should we just murder all athiests in america so they stop trying to disturb our personal peace? i dont think so...

Who said anything about murder? We could just let them stand there for time out.

[Obs]

so you're talking about murdering people for their religion? i didn't think a communist society would approve of such things. or should we support such things? should we just murder all athiests in america so they stop trying to disturb our personal peace? i dont think so...


I was referring to comrade and all the religious zealots that hope for a non-Christian genocide
:mellow:


Request that this useless thread is closed.

[samofshs]

Who said anything about murder? We could just let them stand there for time out.
don't try to say you didn't imply it. and why don't we just send all jews to camps where they work for us then? i mean its not murder so why not? i dont think so................

[Urko]

I directly said that I did not want any genocide.
You said if things went your way (pushing Christianity down every child's throat) would possibly end up in a non Christian genocide

[samofshs]

:mellow:


Request that this useless thread is closed.
sarcasm, learn how to internet

[samofshs]

You said if things went your way (pushing Christianity down every child's throat) would possibly end up in a non Christian genocide
he DID say this, and that's where he and i differ.

[Urko]

Request that this useless thread is closed.
then this thread was for nothing, if it gets closed everyone will walk away with the same opinion...


he DID say this, and that's where he and i differ.
I know, I was talking about him... btw, where are you from if I may ask?

[Comrade Stiefel]

You said if things went your way (pushing Christianity down every child's throat) would possibly end up in a non Christian genocide
We are not "pushing Christianity down every child's throat", and the genocide of non-Christians would be justified by the fact that differences in religion causes infighting, and that infighting can result in a return of the State.

[DecDoom]

We are not "pushing Christianity down every child's throat", and the genocide of non-Christians would be justified by the fact that differences in religion causes infighting, and that infighting can result in a return of the State.

So you'd make peace by killing all dissenters? You must be a fascist.

[Comrade Stiefel]

So you'd make peace by killing dissenters? You must be a fascist.
Anti-Statist, anti-racist, believer in communist society. And for the umpteenth time, I don't support genocide.

[RedAnarchist]

Anti-Statist, anti-racist, believer in communist society. And for the umpteenth time, I don't support genocide.


genocide of non-Christians would be justified by the fact that differences in religion causes infighting, and that infighting can result in a return of the State.

Doesn't matter anyway. You are banned for being a genocidal little shit.

[DecDoom]

Anti-Statist, anti-racist, believer in communist society. And for the umpteenth time, I don't support genocide.

And yet you would sit idly by as it happened?

Or you could try to stop it, be denounced as a heretic, and be killed with all the other non-christians.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

don't try to say you didn't imply it. and why don't we just send all jews to camps where they work for us then? i mean its not murder so why not? i dont think so................

I didn't imply a thing, jump to conclusions all you want.

[samofshs]

I didn't imply a thing, jump to conclusions all you want.
pardon me but you still supported punishment based soley on religious views.

[Comrade Monkey]

I like this Comrade Stiefel guy. He seems to have great ideas. We should all follow him.

[samofshs]

then this thread was for nothing, if it gets closed everyone will walk away with the same opinion...


I know, I was talking about him... btw, where are you from if I may ask?
you may ask. lol JK i'm from florida. why?