Proletarian

[PoliticalNightmare]

Does anyone else not find it a little patronizing/insulting that the working class are always referred to as proletarian by left wing intellectuals as if we are some form of tool with which the middle class can use to create a revolution with. We are workers, not proleflerhashfiodfhui. Honestly, it's just intellectualizing for the sake of intellectualizing. It's like calling black people coloured people.

On the subject of which, it is so damn hard to influence workers to support socialism because you often get Marxists and the like with ideas above their station, talking to ordinary, non-political people about extremely complicated economic theories and how we must 'overthrow the bourgeoise state in order to create a proletarian dictatorship in order to create a transition stage into socialism'. We need to bring our ideas and our concepts back down to earth if we are ever to get people to listen to us.

[Nolan]

Does anyone else not find it a little patronizing/insulting that the working class are always referred to as proletarian by left wing intellectuals as if we are some form of tool with which the middle class can use to create a revolution with. We are workers, not proleflerhashfiodfhui. Honestly, it's just intellectualizing for the sake of intellectualizing. It's like calling black people coloured people.

What the hell are you talking about?


On the subject of which, it is so damn hard to influence workers to support socialism because you often get Marxists and the like with ideas above their station, talking to ordinary, non-political people about extremely complicated economic theories and how we must 'overthrow the bourgeoise state in order to create a proletarian dictatorship in order to create a transition stage into socialism'. We need to bring our ideas and our concepts back down to earth if we are ever to get people to listen to us.The world - including the capitalist system - is a complex thing. There's really no simplifying it without oversimplifying it most of the time. But most of us do try our best to educate people about the power relations of society and what can be done about it. So I don't really know what else you're suggesting. You seem to act as if noone on the left is working class and we all live in mansions reading Lenin in the study.

[Bud Struggle]

That's a little difficult. Most Communist while not being actual "workers" are Proletarians by standard definition.

Being a "worker" I think lets out students and others not actively engaged in daily toil.

[PoliticalNightmare]

What the hell are you talking about?

:confused:That workers should be referred to as workers and not proletariats.

The world - including the capitalist system - is a complex thing. There's really no simplifying it without oversimplifying it most of the time.

I'm not talking about oversimplifying. Just that some people need to get off their high horses.

But most of us do try our best to educate people about the power relations of society and what can be done about it. So I don't really know what else you're suggesting. You seem to act as if noone on the left is working class and we all live in mansions reading Lenin in the study.

No, I know that, but a large majority of socialists are middle class.

[PoliticalNightmare]

That's a little difficult. Most Communist while not being actual "workers" are Proletarians by standard definition.

Being a "worker" I think lets out students and others not actively engaged in daily toil.

But (most people know) that the working class don't have to actually be employed to be classified as a worker.

[Bud Struggle]

But (most people know) that the working class don't have to actually be employed to be classified as a worker.

But it's pretty tacky to be running around calling youself a "worker" when you don't actually do any work.

For that matter, what id the difference between a 23yo guy living at home in mom and dad's basement and a factory owner? Not much as I see it--both sponge off the hard labor a working people (mom and dad.)

[Glenn Beck]

Trust me, I'm aware of this problem. That's why I call the masses "broletarians" or "bros" for short, in order not to alienate them from my radical and liberating message

[PoliticalNightmare]

But it's pretty tacky to be running around calling youself a "worker" when you don't actually do any work.

Even if you're physically disabled and can't work? Or in full time education (which has legitimate purposes).

For that matter, what id the difference between a 23yo guy living at home in mom and dad's basement and a factory owner? Not much as I see it--both sponge off the hard labor a working people (mom and dad.)

What does that have to do with...?

[Bud Struggle]

What does that have to do with...?

So the son of a factory owner and the son of a factory worker both in school--are both "workers?"

[RGacky3]

So the son of a factory owner and the son of a factory worker both in school--are both "workers?"

No their students, but one has a working class background the other does not.


But it's pretty tacky to be running around calling youself a "worker" when you don't actually do any work.

For that matter, what id the difference between a 23yo guy living at home in mom and dad's basement and a factory owner? Not much as I see it--both sponge off the hard labor a working people (mom and dad.)

The difference is one controls the means of production, the other is essnecially recieving family welfare, don't be silly though, your nitpicking.

Being part of the working class does'nt actually mean your a WORKER, if you get laid off and your unemployed your class does'nt change.

If your a Capitalist that retires and gets into philanthrophy your still part of that class.


No, I know that, but a large majority of socialists are middle class.

The large majority of socialsts are poor workers, and the lare majority of socialists live outside of North America and Europe.

[Blake's Baby]

What's 'middle class'?

'Upper class' = aristocracy, 'middle class' = bourgeoisie, 'lower class' (or working class) = proletariat.

Are you really claiming that most socialists are factory owners?

[RGacky3]

this is'nt 1850

[Blake's Baby]

Good point. The Bourgeoisie is now the ruling class and has been for a century. See here for a similar set of discussions and confusions about terms: http://www.revleft.com/vb/upper-class-createdi-t138162/index.html

"The world is increasing divided into two classes, the bourgeois and the proletarians" wrote some dead German guys 150 years ago.

Who then are these 'middle class socialists'? Self employed socialist dentists and plumbers? Socialist farmers? I'm not quite sure where this 'middle class' comes from, what its relationship to the means of production is, who is in it and who isn't.

Or, does it just mean, 'people who went to university'?

[Zanthorus]

No, I know that, but a large majority of socialists are middle class.

Do you actually know any socialists in real life?

Serious question.

[Jazzratt]

Who then are these 'middle class socialists'? Self employed socialist dentists and plumbers? Socialist farmers? I'm not quite sure where this 'middle class' comes from, what its relationship to the means of production is, who is in it and who isn't.

Or, does it just mean, 'people who went to university'?

It means whatever the person using it wants it to really. The OP, for example, is apparently using it to mean anyone that can deal the concept of synonyms. When I use it it's usually faecitious and means people who go to the wrong sort of pub or have a little more money than me.

It's a meaningless term used primarily by schools of class "analysis" that think entirely in terms of income and net worth; where the line is drawn is always arbitrary.

[Bud Struggle]

It's a meaningless term used primarily by schools of class "analysis" that think entirely in terms of income and net worth; where the line is drawn is always arbitrary.

Granted, but all such terms are equally artificial and meaningless outside of the particular system one uses them in. These are Idealistic concepts used to categorize people people in creative ways in order to explain a theory of reality.

Nothing wrong with it until you begin to believe that that is any real "truth" to any of this.

As the bard sang:

I've been a puppet, a pauper, a pirate,
A poet, a pawn and a king.
I've been up and down and over and out
And I know one thing:
Each time I find myself laying flat on my face,
I just pick myself up and get back in the race.

That's the reality of it--all there is is you. The rest is lifestyle.

[scarletghoul]

The vast majority of communists in the world are workers.

[Bud Struggle]

The vast majority of communists in the world are workers.

I would even venture to say that ALL the SERIOUS Communist in the world are workers.

[DaComm]

Does anyone else not find it a little patronizing/insulting that the working class are always referred to as proletarian by left wing intellectuals as if we are some form of tool with which the middle class can use to create a revolution with. We are workers, not proleflerhashfiodfhui. Honestly, it's just intellectualizing for the sake of intellectualizing. It's like calling black people coloured people.

What the? I don't know what you're driving at...wanting to call blacks "coloured people" or to drop the word "proletarian". Proletarian is simply the scientific name for the class of the workers. Theres nothing insulting about it. Middle class is still proletarian too, I might add, so if we go by your philosophy, then everyone is equally insulted, even those wwho "start a revolution". ON THAT NOTE, the middle class does not start, create, or carry out the revolution. Such action is done solely through the homogenous revolutionary consensus of the working class. I don't know where the middle class comes in as so predominant in any of this frankly. And no, it is not like calling an black person a coloured person because coloured person is not a scientific name.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

I use the term workers, because I can't spell proletarian.

[Hiratsuka]

It means whatever the person using it wants it to really. The OP, for example, is apparently using it to mean anyone that can deal the concept of synonyms. When I use it it's usually faecitious and means people who go to the wrong sort of pub or have a little more money than me.

It's a meaningless term used primarily by schools of class "analysis" that think entirely in terms of income and net worth; where the line is drawn is always arbitrary.

To be fair, there's some overlap and confusion between petit-bourgeoisie and proletariat.

[RGacky3]

Granted, but all such terms are equally artificial and meaningless outside of the particular system one uses them in. These are Idealistic concepts used to categorize people people in creative ways in order to explain a theory of reality.

Nothing wrong with it until you begin to believe that that is any real "truth" to any of this.

As the bard sang:

I've been a puppet, a pauper, a pirate,
A poet, a pawn and a king.
I've been up and down and over and out
And I know one thing:
Each time I find myself laying flat on my face,
I just pick myself up and get back in the race.

That's the reality of it--all there is is you. The rest is lifestyle.

Lifestyle has the connotation of choice, however in the capitalist system there is pretty much NO choice to the lot in life, comfort and relation to production for the vast vast majority of the poeple.

The fact is ALL catorizations are idealized, but that does'nt mean that athe realities they are based on are not real. Mammal is a man made catorization only relevant in the world of biology, but that does'nt mean that nipples on mammals are not real.

[PoliticalNightmare]

When I think of classes, I am thinking more about their cultural differences than their wealth, their scientific position in society or whether or not they own the means of production.


I use the term workers, because I can't spell proletarian.

Well that's a good start at least.


The large majority of socialsts are poor workers, and the lare majority of socialists live outside of North America and Europe.

Note that I never said the large majority. I said a large majority. And come on, you only have to look around this forum to notice that a lot of people like to engage in Marxism to extend their intellectual capacities (and their is nothing wrong with that).

When I think of classes, I am thinking more about their cultural differences than their wealth, their scientific position in society or whether or not they own the means of production, etc. Which is why someone who is working class does not necessarily have to be employed.

As for unemployed communists not being 'serious', what about those who are physically unable to do labour and don't have the education to pursue an academic career.

Also, I never said that all students are working class.

As for 'coloured' not being a scientific term, well that just makes proletarian even more of an elitist term. Especially considering the majority of the working class (along with the rest of society) probably don't even know what it means.

And no, I don't think that the middle and upper classes are the only ones who can grasp complex concepts. I just think that they are probably the only ones who use complex concepts unnecessarily to prove how intelligent themselves while belittling everyone else.

What do I think a middle class citizen is? Again, cultural differences, not petty-bourgeois, bourgeois, proletarian, whatever. In fact, I think that the middle class are ultimately just a higher branch of the working class.

[PoliticalNightmare]

The OP, for example, is apparently using it [the term middle class] to mean anyone that can deal the concept of synonyms.

No, why would I do that? I'm working class after all, I can deal with them. I just don't like the way some intellectuals use them.


When I use it it's usually faecitious and means people who go to the wrong sort of pub or have a little more money than me.

Actually, that's more my analogy.


It's a meaningless term used primarily by schools of class "analysis" that think entirely in terms of income and net worth; where the line is drawn is always arbitrary.

Which is precisely the point I'm trying to get across in this thread.

Look at any right wing newspaper, I don't know, for example the sun. The way they rake in right wing support is definitely not from using stupid terminology that no-one but a bunch of super smart intellectuals can understand. And that is precisely what populism and how the capitalists get voted in time after time. The only way to counter populism is, with populism.

[syndicat]

"proletariat" comes from the Latin meaning lower class. I rarely use the term and I don't run into it very often among radicals. Usually people talk about the working class.

People tend to live in families, and so classes are made up of people living in families. So if a a worker has kids they're part of the working class.

But I understand class as about domination and exploitation, so it has to do with who has power over who in social production. The working class are those who are subordinate to management and owners but don't have power (or any significant power) over other workers.

of course there are various layers between the (obvious) working class jobs and the capitalist elite, so there is always dispute and argument about the class position of this or that group "in between".

i actually agree with the OP that it's necessary to talk and write in an accessible manner, and avoid jargon and overly complex sentences and words in the course of organizing, not to "dumb down" the ideas...complex ideas can be explained clearly...but because people may not be familiar with the terminology.