Is there a way to avoid buying from sweatshops while living in a capitalist society?

[Adi Shankara]

EDIT: The title was originally meant to be a general question to the readers, but I made it more personal, so the question should read "Is there any way to avoid buying from sweatshops while living in a capitalist society"? I'd like it if the mod could change the title for me.

I know it sounds like a question with an obvious answer, but this bothers me.

Like, on one hand, I try to buy fairtrade goods when and where affordable and available, as I am a student with very limited means...and everything with "made in China" on it is almost guaranteed sweatshop labor (so much for "communist" China, eh?), seeing as people are always dying at work in the major industrial port cities.

on the other hand, I know that excuse only goes so far, seeing as I can still afford internet access and books...so does this make me a hypocrite that I sometimes buy sweatshop made goods (almost everyone owns them, including you, if you own a pair of main-brand tennis shoes, shirts, or anything plastic, really), as they are the only ones you can sometimes find or afford?

in fact, it even goes down to food. if you eat produce from Mexico, Africa, or Asia, then you're probably eating food produced from sweatshop-like working conditions.

Yet at the same time, I can't afford fairtrade vegetables and fruits, nor the domestically grown foods.

what the hell do I do here? how do I solve this dillema and stop supporting sweatshop labor or sweatshop working conditions without spending every paycheck or having no savings? Am I just sort've forced to?

[Devrim]

what the hell do I do here? how do I solve this dillema and stop supporting sweatshop labor or sweatshop working conditions without spending every paycheck or having no savings? Am I just sort've forced to?

There is no dilemma.Being a communist is not a set of consumer choices.

Devrim

[Adi Shankara]

There is no dilemma.Being a communist is not a set of consumer choices.

Devrim

hence, why if you read the top, I said that I wanted to change the name, because the original question no longer applied. :closedeyes:

[AK]

Think of it this way: now you're a communist because you also want to end the way that social conditions force you to buy consumer goods that are made by sweatshop and/or child labour.

[this is an invasion]

You can't live within capitalism and buy things without participating in or supporting (in one way or another) the exploitation of another human being. That is the very nature of capitalism.

[Lyev]

Assuming that capitalism in all it's varied forms is, by it's very nature, highly immoral and exploitative, and that every company you buy from will use child labour, abuse their workers, use sweatshops and enforce horrible conditions on their workforce (i.e. constant capital), then where does that leave us? Well, for a start, there's no point boycotting capitalist b, while still buying from capitalist a. Boycotts and such liberal tactics create imbalances in the market, and what is it that deems one member of the bourgeoisie slightly less exploitative than the other?

[Devrim]

hence, why if you read the top, I said that I wanted to change the name, because the original question no longer applied. :closedeyes:

Why does it bother you? Do you think that any products are made without exploitation? Do you think it is possible to live without having any part of it?

Devrim

[Adi Shankara]

Why does it bother you? Do you think that any products are made without exploitation? Do you think it is possible to live without having any part of it?

Devrim

Yes, because that would be communism, and I thought that was the whole point of...well, you know, Revolution...

[Devrim]

Yes, because that would be communism, and I thought that was the whole point of...well, you know, Revolution...

Revolution involves the working class seizing power, not changing its shopping tastes.

Devrim

[Adi Shankara]

Revolution involves the working class seizing power, not changing its shopping tastes.

Devrim

That's not what was asked nor what you stated. What you said was:


Do you think that any products are made without exploitation?And I basically said, to paraphrase "isn't that sort've the point of communism? to create a society without exploitation"?

but your cute one liners that you must've taken less than a whole day's work to come up with certainly make up for the lack of comprehension on your part, so keep 'em coming ;)

[AK]

If a few million people were to stop buying mass-produced, sweatshop-made consumer goods overnight, do you know what companies would do? They would sack a few ten thousand workers when they found that their sales figures weren't doing too good. You just can't create a comfortable life for yourself under capitalism without sending someone else's life to shit. It is a broken system.

[Devrim]

And I basically said, to paraphrase "isn't that sort've the point of communism? to create a society without exploitation"?

but your cute one liners that you must've taken less than a whole day's work to come up with certainly make up for the lack of comprehension on your part, so keep 'em coming ;)

The point is that there is nothing at all socialist in consumer choice. Creating a society without exploitation can not be done by boycotting certain products which for some reason you have decided are more exploitative than others.

Whilst boycotting sweatshop products might assure some sort of guilt feelings held by certain individuals, it isn't anything to do with collective working class activity.

Devrim

[this is an invasion]

It also reinforces the ridiculous notion that people who don't work in sweat shops aren't exploited or alienated from their labor.

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

It is very difficult, but if you buy things local... then it helps to lower the amount of the stuff that you have coming from sweat shops... but the problem comes in with clothing... I suppose if you could find a clothing brand made here in America, then the chance of it being made in a sweat shop is considerably lower since sweat shops are illegal... but then again... corps like to do everything in their power to go around regulations...

[$lim_$weezy]

I too am troubled by this.
While a worker is still exploited in a country like America, they can survive off what they make and are not likely to die because of poor working conditions. In many other countries, this is different, as Thomas_Sankara realizes.
He's just asking how he can help improve the livelihood of sweat shop workers in third world countries. To say that in a capitalist economy, one's money cannot make a difference is absurd.

edit: fixed some incoherency

[Adil3tr]

Fair Trade?

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

Fair trade won't work because those in power of the government and of the corporations will only use whatever loopholes are available and they'll do all in their power to go around it... therefore, while it is a good concept on paper... it is only a good concept on paper because people follow their minds and their hearts before they follow written words...

[bcbm]

Is there any way to avoid buying from sweatshops while living in a capitalist society

http://americanapparel.net/

[Lyev]

Fair Trade?You have to be joking... "fair trades" don't exist in a capitalist market, it just means getting paid a little more. It's just capitalism with a slightly nicer face. In fact, support of fair trade, in an indirect way, implies a position of reformism, because you just want to make capitalism slightly more human, rather than abolish it altogether.

[Ravachol]

It also reinforces the ridiculous notion that people who don't work in sweat shops aren't exploited or alienated from their labor.

this, listen to this man!

I really hate the idea some 'leftists' have that by supporting 'fair' trade (whatever that may be), 'green' development and by buying 'sweatshop/slavery/rape/torture-free' goods somehow everything is suddenly fine. Even on it's own terms, it's a ridiculous scenario. Just because YOU don't buy them, it doesn't mean somebody else won't, sure it might ease the conscience but it doesn't change anything. Apart from that, it reproduces the notion of some silly 'zero-exploitation level' inherent to 'ordinary' capitalism. As if capitalism isn't inherently exploitative...

[Agnapostate]

I'm not sure I would bother unless you could participate in an organized boycott, since individual consumption patterns are generally marginal and essentially irrelevant.

And in the capitalist economy, the pro-capitalist apologists may actually be correct in saying that sweatshops are the best of bad options, simply because the abolition of capitalism isn't on the table, and capitalists aren't likely to be amenable to massive progressive reforms.

[Adi Shankara]

I really hate the idea some 'leftists' have that by supporting 'fair' trade (whatever that may be), 'green' development and by buying 'sweatshop/slavery/rape/torture-free' goods somehow everything is suddenly fine.

It doesn't--but If you believe there is no difference between a westerner who works for minimum wage at burger king and a 13 year old cambodian child working 15 hours a day on a farm on an empty stomach supporting her entire family, you're not just fucking stupid--you're cruel.

[Ravachol]

It doesn't--but If you believe there is no difference between a westerner who works for minimum wage at burger king and a 13 year old cambodian child working 15 hours a day on a farm on an empty stomach supporting her entire family, you're not just fucking stupid--you're cruel.

There is obviously a difference, just like there is a difference between well-paid white-collar workers and very low-waged blue-collar cleaners. Still, exploitation is exploitation. It isn't a pissing-contest who is 'exploited the hardest', it's about ending all exploitation without compromise. Setting up white-collar vs. blue-collar workers or '1st world' workers vs '3rd world' workers is only going to divide the working class. We ought to struggle against wage slavery, regardless of the length of the chain.

[dearest chuck]

no, the bourgeoisie is literally holding a gun to your head making you buy reeboks.

[The Red Next Door]

No,There is not. Nowadays everything is made in a fucking sweatshop and i do mean EVERYTHING. The only thing. there is to do is to destroy capitalism. This is a problem we can't fair trade our way out of.

[rednordman]

Unfortuanetly, where ever you buy your clothers from, the workers will be treated like shit no matter what. Fair enough, the sweatshop workers in asia get treated the worse, but just buying from a 'made in england or europe' label is still buying a producted made by exploitation. Seriously, wouldnt wear anything at all if you went hardline about this. But I guess that this just exposes the true nature of the world we live in (well the capitalist dominated one anyway)

So yes, sadly you are just forced to support sweatshop labour:(.

[Starport]

It doesn't--but If you believe there is no difference between a westerner who works for minimum wage at burger king and a 13 year old cambodian child working 15 hours a day on a farm on an empty stomach supporting her entire family, you're not just fucking stupid--you're cruel.

That's not what you alleged hero said! You better read up on the real Thomas Sankara hadn't you???

[dearest chuck]

of course there's a difference. the burger king person is exploited, the cambodian teenager is not. the burger king person understands it is in her interests to abolish capitalism and the wage relation. it is different with the cambodian teenager; depending on which way history is headed, she might side with 10% bourgeois cambodia or she might side with the burger king proletarian revolutionary and the 90% proletarian usa.

[Devrim]

It doesn't--but If you believe there is no difference between a westerner who works for minimum wage at burger king and a 13 year old cambodian child working 15 hours a day on a farm on an empty stomach supporting her entire family, you're not just fucking stupid--you're cruel.

What sort of difference? Certainly there is a difference in conditions, which is not nearly as large as the difference in liberal outrage they cause though. As for differences in levels of exploitation, high skilled, high paid Western workers are almost certainly exploited more than your 15 year old Cambodian as the rate of exploitation is not a measurement of how bad conditions are, but a measurement of how much surplus value is being extracted.

Devrim

[Robocommie]

What sort of difference? Certainly there is a difference in conditions, which is not nearly as large as the difference in liberal outrage they cause though. As for differences in levels of exploitation, high skilled, high paid Western workers are almost certainly exploited more than your 15 year old Cambodian as the rate of exploitation is not a measurement of how bad conditions are, but a measurement of how much surplus value is being extracted.

Devrim

Reducing exploitation to how it works out in an equation of surplus value, without any concern for the severity of conditions seems to be completely abandoning sympathy for suffering human beings for a mathematically-based analysis of self-interest.

I understand where you're coming from... but it seems really cold.

[Adi Shankara]

That's not what you alleged hero said! You better read up on the real Thomas Sankara hadn't you???

Yet another person who claims Thomas Sankara said something without reading into what he actually believed in--this is getting really annoying.

he said workers are exploited all over the world, but he himself also said Africa should have a special priority because in Africa, people starve, can't read, cant' get treated etc. which is why he originally started to write about debt forgiveness.

[Devrim]

Reducing exploitation to how it works out in an equation of surplus value, without any concern for the severity of conditions seems to be completely abandoning sympathy for suffering human beings for a mathematically-based analysis of self-interest.

I understand where you're coming from... but it seems really cold.

My sympathy for people isn't really the question here. Of course I have sympathy for people living and working in terrible conditions, and many people in the so-called third world live and work in terrible conditions.

It doesn't mean that they are more exploited than skilled workers in good jobs though. Often the reverse is the case, and the reason that they are working in such terrible conditions is because the margins are so tight.

There are two points here though that I think are important. First, the idea that exploitation in the so-called 'third' world is somehow different or more intense than the in the West. It isn't. Second the idea that shopping habits have anything to do with working class politics. They don't.

Devrim

[Ele'ill]

EDIT: The title was originally meant to be a general question to the readers, but I made it more personal, so the question should read "Is there any way to avoid buying from sweatshops while living in a capitalist society"? I'd like it if the mod could change the title for me.

I know it sounds like a question with an obvious answer, but this bothers me.

Like, on one hand, I try to buy fairtrade goods when and where affordable and available, as I am a student with very limited means...and everything with "made in China" on it is almost guaranteed sweatshop labor (so much for "communist" China, eh?), seeing as people are always dying at work in the major industrial port cities.

on the other hand, I know that excuse only goes so far, seeing as I can still afford internet access and books...so does this make me a hypocrite that I sometimes buy sweatshop made goods (almost everyone owns them, including you, if you own a pair of main-brand tennis shoes, shirts, or anything plastic, really), as they are the only ones you can sometimes find or afford?

in fact, it even goes down to food. if you eat produce from Mexico, Africa, or Asia, then you're probably eating food produced from sweatshop-like working conditions.

Yet at the same time, I can't afford fairtrade vegetables and fruits, nor the domestically grown foods.

what the hell do I do here? how do I solve this dillema and stop supporting sweatshop labor or sweatshop working conditions without spending every paycheck or having no savings? Am I just sort've forced to?


Of course there are ways to avoid all of the above- ignore anyone that tells you otherwise

Why would any one of you advocate the smashing of Nike's or Starbucks windows and then pay for their repair?

Want sweatshop free clothes? Buy second hand. They're cheaper, they usually last a long time and your money doesn't go into the pockets of those systems you abhor.

Food. Find a coop. Find a health food store that is part of a fair trade

Right now- money keeps those corporations floating- Now purchase power isn't going to sink them but it will remove you from participation in some of the most horrific industry you could imagine.


"It doesn't matter buy whatever you want" is slobbish indulgence in a system that's made some of our comrades soft to say the least.

[Ele'ill]

What's happening in the left these days is a whole lot of parroting of ideas with a whole lot of misunderstandings. It all gets lost.

It isn't about 'going green' or 'voting with your money'. It's a first fucking step to not be identical to the glowing tan plastic elf people frequenting shopping outlets and buying sweaters for their fucking dogs.

oh? The difference is you go to marches and such? :rolleyes: Please.

Your hard earned dollars should not be going towards the same system that you are compelled to fight. It's absurd on so many levels and it makes me sick to see and hear leftists basically pushing for you to shop at Nike, Starbucks, Use major banks, drive an SUV simply because 'if you do otherwise you're trying to revolt by consumer power'

Oh, how evil is the prostitute that decides to stop fucking.

[Devrim]

Your hard earned dollars should not be going towards the same system that you are compelled to fight. It's absurd on so many levels and it makes me sick to see and hear leftists basically pushing for you to shop at Nike, Starbucks, Use major banks, drive an SUV simply because 'if you do otherwise you're trying to revolt by consumer power'

I don't think that anybody has pushed for people to do any of those things at all. The point is that there is nothing socialist about not doing them.

To look at the things in your list;


shop at Nike

I just went to the cupboard to see what sort of sports shoes I had, and funnily enough they are Nike. There isn't a Nike shop in our city as far as I am aware though.


Starbucks

I have been to Starbucks about five times in my life.


Use major banks

I use HSBC. I'd much rather use a major bank than a small one as the small local banks have a tendency to go bankrupt from time to time in this country.


drive an SUV

I have never owned a car even let alone an SUV. In fact the only time I have ever driven regular in my life was when I worked as a postman.

Is my life sufficiently 'non-socialist?


Your hard earned dollars should not be going towards the same system that you are compelled to fight.

And if I used a local small Turkish bank, wouldn't my money be earning interest for the owners?

If I bought some non-brand local sports shoes, wouldn't it be making profit for the company owners, and incidentally be just as likely to be made in a sweatshop?

If I drink coffee in the local café, which I do, doesn't it still make money for some businessman?


Why would any one of you advocate the smashing of Nike's or Starbucks windows and then pay for their repair?

I don't advocate, or go round, smashing shop windows. I don't think there is much that is very radical about it.


Want sweatshop free clothes? Buy second hand. They're cheaper, they usually last a long time and your money doesn't go into the pockets of those systems you abhor.

I'm pretty sure that there are no second hand clothes shops in our city, but why would I want to put my money into the hands of a small businessman who ran it if there were?


Food. Find a coop. Find a health food store that is part of a fair trade

There isn't fair trade within capitalism. I used to buy my vegetables at the local market. Now, however, I buy them at the supermarket purely because it is cheaper.


It's a first fucking step to not be identical to the glowing tan plastic elf people frequenting shopping outlets and buying sweaters for their fucking dogs.

I don't have a dog, and wouldn't buy a sweater for it if I had one. I am not sure what a 'glowing tan plastic elf person' is, but I don't think socialism is about not having a tan.


Now purchase power isn't going to sink them but it will remove you from participation in some of the most horrific industry you could imagine.

This is what it comes down to, individual moralism. I don't at all see what that has to do with the collective action of the working class.

It is impossible to opt out of the system. Human beings are not islands.

Devrim

[Ele'ill]

I don't think that anybody has pushed for people to do any of those things at all. The point is that there is nothing socialist about not doing them.

To look at the things in your list;



I just went to the cupboard to see what sort of sports shoes I had, and funnily enough they are Nike. There isn't a Nike shop in our city as far as I am aware though.



I have been to Starbucks about five times in my life.



I use HSBC. I'd much rather use a major bank than a small one as the small local banks have a tendency to go bankrupt from time to time in this country.



I have never owned a car even let alone an SUV. In fact the only time I have ever driven regular in my life was when I worked as a postman.

Is my life sufficiently 'non-socialist?



How does it make you feel? Don't try to impress me, I could give a shit- that is, until a leftist starts suggesting supporting the corporations they're opposed to.









And if I used a local small Turkish bank, wouldn't my money be earning interest for the owners?

If I bought some non-brand local sports shoes, wouldn't it be making profit for the company owners, and incidentally be just as likely to be made in a sweatshop?The fact that you don't know is an issue. Have you actually tried looking into alternatives? Why not?

Someone is going to profit from your purchase- shopping second hand is going to put your money into the hands of various non-socialist people. This doesn't even come close to supporting the corporations with the worst worker's rights records who are also the least likely to ever be touched by law. The two don't even compare.





If I drink coffee in the local café, which I do, doesn't it still make money for some businessman?I can't answer that question for you, I don't live in the same area. There are a couple work owned coop cafe's where I live.

Again, saying 'ah well I guess I'll just go to the most offensively brutal and untouchable corporation rather than trying to go else where to a place that perhaps is a bit better if not all together- worker run worker owned.









I don't advocate, or go round, smashing shop windows. I don't think there is much that is very radical about it.Again, then that part of the post didn't apply to you.




I'm pretty sure that there are no second hand clothes shops in our city, but why would I want to put my money into the hands of a small businessman who ran it if there were?
:rolleyes: Why? Because it's ten times better than supporting a protectively entrenched corruption machine X.


And for the record- if you absolutely have to eat, get clothes, etc etc etc I understand survival and this scenario isn't what I'm refering to.





There isn't fair trade within capitalism. I used to buy my vegetables at the local market. Now, however, I buy them at the supermarket purely because it is cheaper.
Simply isn't true. Perhaps where you're living- but not across the board.




I don't have a dog, and wouldn't buy a sweater for it if I had one. I am not sure what a 'glowing tan plastic elf person' is, but I don't think socialism is about not having a tan.Eloquently luxorious lifestyle or at least the percieved notion that one is living it.




This is what it comes down to, individual moralism. I don't at all see what that has to do with the collective action of the working class.Because the working class is essentially paying the same exact specific people, institutions and organizations that are fucking them in the first place.

What are your thoughts on voting.


It is impossible to opt out of the system. Human beings are not islands.

DevrimI've opted out of the system for a good portion of my life and lived comfortably. :lol:

[NGNM85]

There's a topical quote from an article in a magazine called Hermenaut that Naomi Klein cited in NoLogo that I thought summed it up really nicely;

"..we prefer to contrate our attention on the indpendant use of mass culture products, a use which, like the ruses of camoflaged fish and insects may not "overthrow the system", but which keeps us autonomous and intact within that system... Going to disneyworld to drop acid and goof on mickey isn't revolutionary;..Going to disney world in full knowledge of how ridiculous and evil it all is and still having a great innocent time, in some almost unconscious...way, is something else, altogether. This is what de Certeau described as "the art of being in-between", and this is the only path of true freedom in our culture. Let us revel in Baywatch, Joe Camel, Wired magazine....but let's never succumb to the glamour of these things."

Essentially, in modern society practices like the exploitation of labor, pollution, etc., have become so pervasive, and corporations so intertwined, that it's impossible to have any kind of life worth living without interacting with these entities. Moreover, besides hurting ourselves, simply dropping off the grid doesn't change anything. Therefore we must find a way to function within society. To try and push for a better world while inhabiting this one, and not depriving ourselves. I also feel many 'radicals' often conflate products with institutions. Pepsico. is an evil corporation, however Pepsi is a sweet, if nutritionally dubious, beverage that I like to have at the movies. In the world we should be working to acheive, we should be able to play videogames, surf the net, crack open a soda, and enjoy a movie all secure in the knowledge that none of it is by virtue of human exploitation.

[Devrim]

I've opted out of the system for a good portion of my life and lived comfortably. :lol:

Obviously so opted out that you are using a computer and the internet. Was the computer manufactured without exploitation? How was it shipped without oil transported in tankers probably built in shipyards which have outrageous levels of workplace 'accidents'.

I could go on, but I won't bother. Your point is completely mute.


And for the record- if you absolutely have to eat, get clothes, etc etc etc I understand survival and this scenario isn't what I'm refering to.

It is exactly what this question is about. Why should workers support different capitalists who are marketing their products as 'less exploitative'?


What are your thoughts on voting.

I don't. I am a communist.

Devrim

[Ele'ill]

Obviously so opted out that you are using a computer


In order for me to get paid I have to have a computer and in order for me to survive I have to get paid. That is not the situation that I am referring too. You have to survive and I don't judge people's political sincerity based on that. With that said- there's a lot that can be done to not make certain entities more financially secure. I don't pay someone to hurt people.




and the internet. Was the computer manufactured without exploitation? How was it shipped without oil transported in tankers probably built in shipyards which have outrageous levels of workplace 'accidents'.


I dumpstered the computer parts and I'm using wireless.

I have no internet bill.

hint hint

I'm wearing second hand clothes that look nice. I paid 5 dollars for these pants and the money went into a second hand clothing recycling business rather than 60 dollars into the pocket of a corporation that would most likely be against social and economic justice.

Some of my friends make their own clothes. It doesn't make up their entire 'wardrobe' but it certainly helps.

I'm eating food that was grown locally on an organic farm- actually some of it isn't organic and I bought it at a local food coop. They do a lot of good things at the coop.

My point again is that it takes a little effort but it is very possible to not give your money to some of the worst aspects of capitalism. I am not advocating that it is possible to live in a merry little world where you are not using or contributing to ALL of the problems.




I could go on, but I won't bother. Your point is completely mute.


That would be 'moot'- and no it isn't because I'm responding right now.




It is exactly what this question is about. Why should workers support different capitalists who are marketing their products as 'less exploitative'?


Everyone is a capitalist under capitalism. I get that. What I'm saying is stop living like one to the best of your fucking ability. This shouldn't even be an argument. I'd rather pay money to a second hand store than pay money into a fucking corporation that intentionally and willingly exploits workers via sweat shops and union busting. They do it with a grin on their faces.


A second hand store still has workers working for them but they essentially recycle used clothes- your money isn't likely going into a company that uses sweatshop labor run by paramilitary thugs- where people vanish in the middle of the day because they 'may have been organizing'.

Again, the two scenarios don't even compare.


There are a lot of products advertised as 'fair trade' and 'recycled!' and 'Green!' when they aren't at all. I assume you're not stupid and can research (in a very short amount of time) products that actually are. Use them.




I understand the issue with 'wage' and 'labor' being an exploitation in itself and we can't do anything about that right now but what we can do is support alternative systems that operate independent to capitalism (I can list a hundred off the top of my head)


If it doesn't apply to you fine but I've seen anarchist booing nike while wearing nike and there's simply no excuse for that.

Activists at a climate summit stopping in at burger king for a bite to eat. It's fucking absurd.

















I don't. I am a communist.

Devrim

I don't vote either because it's a willing participation in something I'm opposed to- still being within capitalism or not doesn't matter.

[Crux]

It's not a lifestyle choice. Moralism never got the left anywhere, and while I too find the idea of "opting out" of capitalism appealing it is an impossible dream, I try to spend my time organizing those that can change society not dumpstering for food or not buying coca cola or whatever. I am positive more change can be done there.

[Ele'ill]

It's not a lifestyle choice. Moralism never got the left anywhere, and while I too find the idea of "opting out" of capitalism appealing it is an impossible dream, I try to spend my time organizing those that can change society not dumpstering for food or not buying coca cola or whatever. I am positive more change can be done there.


I do both.

I hate the idea that circulates on this forum (that I have yet to experience in the real world) that

1. living a certain way is you trying to be a revolutionary

2. that people who dumpster their food eat a vegan diet and like animals don't do anything else with their time.

I do it all because it isn't that hard- I don't pay companies who hurt people and the earth when I can avoid it. It's that simple. I also do organizing work- attend marches- attend spokes council meetings and lots of other stuff that actually makes things move (etc)




what the hell do I do here? how do I solve this dillema and stop supporting sweatshop labor or sweatshop working conditions without spending every paycheck or having no savings? Am I just sort've forced to?

This was the original poster's question.


If you're a student short on money then that's the situation. Work with it the best that you can. I've listed several examples of how to avoid paying harmful companies for their products that were made through injustice- intentionally- because they likely complained about justice being a barrier to free trade.

The fact that so many people suggested it not being an issue is fucked up.

Kudos to the Original Poster for their concern. :thumbup1:

[black magick hustla]

I don't fucking care about which master is nicer to his slaves. I want all masters hanging from the lamposts.

[Ele'ill]

I don't fucking care about which master is nicer to his slaves. I want all masters hanging from the lamposts.

You want to hang all slave masters yet you support the meanest and the whole slave industry with your money. :rolleyes:

[black magick hustla]

You want to hang all slave masters yet you support the meanest and the whole slave industry with your money. :rolleyes:

lol. so you think that by boycotting sweatshops and buying your hip shit from american apparel and dumspterdiving for fucking bagels there is something you are doing? do you think that if sweatshops go bankrupt those people will be liberated? capitalism is not buildings, or companies, it is a social relationship that all men in the current world are imbued in.

[Ravachol]

lol. so you think that by boycotting sweatshops and buying your hip shit from american apparel and dumspterdiving for fucking bagels there is something you are doing? do you think that if sweatshops go bankrupt those people will be liberated? capitalism is not buildings, or companies, it is a social relationship that all men in the current world are imbued in.

Sexist! :p

But in all seriousness, Maldoror is right. You 'support' exploitation just as much by buying from any company as they all (unless you count some collectives) use wage-labour.

[Ele'ill]

lol. so you think that by boycotting sweatshops and buying your hip shit from american apparel and dumspterdiving for fucking bagels there is something you are doing?


First of all I don't shop for 'hip shit' and as far as I know American Apparel as in the brand uses child labor either in their actual manufacturing or manufacturing materials. I can look it up if you want as I am not totally sure. I generally avoid those types of stores. The fact that you slid that in there sort of has me questioning your maturity level.

I already said- had you read any single one of my posts in this thread- that it isn't about what you're actively doing- I am active in my community- but what you aren't doing and what I'm not doing is giving my money to corporations that are entrenched in slave labor standards- just as an example.




do you think that if sweatshops go bankrupt those people will be liberated? capitalism is not buildings, or companies, it is a social relationship that all men in the current world are imbued in.

If you had read any single one of my posts in this thread you would have noticed that I did not advocate it as a tactic but as a way to simply not contribute to injustice. Why give more money to a company you know has worker's rights issues than less money to a company that doesn't?

My posts were a direct response to the Original Poster

[Widerstand]

lol. so you think that by boycotting sweatshops and buying your hip shit from american apparel and dumspterdiving for fucking bagels there is something you are doing? do you think that if sweatshops go bankrupt those people will be liberated? capitalism is not buildings, or companies, it is a social relationship that all men in the current world are imbued in.

So if you have you have the choice between something bad and something worse you will choose the worse, because they are both not good? Where's the logic in that?

I agree that neither fair trade, nor second hand nor dumpster diving are serious solutions to sweatshops or wage slavery. But this is not a practical thing. There is indeed not much revolutionary about either, if it's the only thing you do. However I would think it quite hypocritical to directly or indirectly oppose sweatshops, by whatever means of protest, and not extending this opposition to your everyday life.

It's simply a matter of making the best out of the current situation. Of course this should NEVER be an excuse to lessen your other efforts to change this situation. View it as a way of raising awareness about sweatshops if you will. As an analogy: You wouldn't argue that vegetarianism doesn't help promote animal rights although it doesn't end animal exploitation, would you?

[Ele'ill]

Sexist! :p

But in all seriousness, Maldoror is right. You 'support' exploitation just as much by buying from any company as they all (unless you count some collectives) use wage-labour.


That simply isn't true.

I understand that even us earning money under capitalism can be considered an aspect of exploitation as it directly relates to an exploitive system but there's no way in fuck giving your money to food coops and second hand stores is anywhere even remotely close and or related to walking into a Gap, Starbucks, regular agribusiness grocery store, Nike, Sports Authority etc.


Sure, at the second hand store and food coop you're contributing to a business that exists in a capitalist economy but you're not supporting the harmful affects that are generally associated with other businesses that use injustice as a vehicle for profit.


No comparison. :thumbup1:

[black magick hustla]

If you had read any single one of my posts in this thread you would have noticed that I did not advocate it as a tactic but as a way to simply not contribute to injustice. Why give more money to a company you know has worker's rights issues than less money to a company that doesn't?


No. Abolitionists did not boycott cotton shirts because of southern slavery. They agitated against it, and ultimately that was the most important aspect of their legacy.


However I would think it quite hypocritical to directly or indirectly oppose sweatshops, by whatever means of protest, and not extending this opposition to your everyday life.
completely intranscendental. people work in sweatshops because it is either the best jobs out there or there are no jobs. there is not a single good thing that comes out from boycotting sweatshop goods unless sweatshop workers specifically petition for it. not a single thing.

[Ele'ill]

No. Abolitionists did not boycott cotton shirts because of southern slavery. They agitated against it, and ultimately that was the most important aspect of their legacy.


You're arguing against something that I am simply not saying.

Agitation is awesome- but not when you turn around and support what you're agitating against.

We have a lot more choices than they did. We have quality alternative clothing sources that they didn't.

There's still no comparison.






completely intranscendental. people work in sweatshops because it is either the best jobs out there or there are no jobs. there is not a single good thing that comes out from boycotting sweatshop goods unless sweatshop workers specifically petition for it. not a single thing.

"Oh, good! Let's set up a Revleft relief fund for Nike so the people they use for slave labor can keep their jobs! Everyone buy Sweatshop made clothes or people will suffer!"


When factory workers (slave labor) kill themselves so they don't have to live through that misery of another work day the last thing I am ever going to fucking do is give a single penny to the people responsible.

That's what we're up against.

Boycotting as a tactic isn't a replacement for actual actions and organizing as I've said in every single one of my posts in this thread (i've actually copyed that line there into the clipboard so I can just paste it) What boycotting (in the way I've mentioned) does is put your life where your fucking mouth is.

[Lyev]

That simply isn't true.

I understand that even us earning money under capitalism can be considered an aspect of exploitation as it directly relates to an exploitive system but there's no way in fuck giving your money to food coops and second hand stores is anywhere even remotely close and or related to walking into a Gap, Starbucks, regular agribusiness grocery store, Nike, Sports Authority etc.


Sure, at the second hand store and food coop you're contributing to a business that exists in a capitalist economy but you're not supporting the harmful affects that are generally associated with other businesses that use injustice as a vehicle for profit.


No comparison. :thumbup1:There aren't little pockets of non-capitalism within capitalism itself: i.e. you can't avoid wage-labour and explotation. You're bordering on self-righteousness and hypocrisy here. What about all the food you buy? And your furniture? Are you really going to track down every single component and ingredient that has gone into every commodity you've bought?

[Ele'ill]

just consider this a double post

[Ele'ill]

There aren't little pockets of non-capitalism within capitalism itself: i.e. you can't avoid wage-labour and explotation.

Yes there are. I can avoid all of those things and do. My money still goes towards a business that's part of the 'capitalist system' but there's no negative affect to the environment and workers. At least not even remotely comparable to the best corporations that use slave labor and destroy the planet.




You're bordering on self-righteousness and hypocrisy here.

How do either of those words apply to anything I've said?



What about all the food you buy?


Had you looked through the thread first before posting you would have seen I mentioned food coops. There are of course other alternatives.




And your furniture?


Craigslist. Yardsales. Second hand stores



Are you really going to track down every single component and ingredient that has gone into every commodity you've bought?

No but I can greatly reduce my contributions to aspects of the capitalist system that are killing us.

[Widerstand]

completely intranscendental. people work in sweatshops because it is either the best jobs out there or there are no jobs. there is not a single good thing that comes out from boycotting sweatshop goods unless sweatshop workers specifically petition for it. not a single thing.

Lol what? I'm confused, are you implying that "special economical zones"/"Maquilas"/"free trade zones" are actually a necessity for the people in those countries? Sounds a lot like propaganda from the biggest proponents of these zones: "It will help the underdeveloped nations because it creates more income and technology transfer".
Reality looks different. More often than not they have, with the help of governmental repression and financing, pushed the native job providers out of business until people had no other choice than working there, under much worse conditions than before.

Also I believe there are quite a few examples where boycotting a major brand has led them to put pressure on their contractors so they improve working conditions. Of course, you could call the aim of the boycott reformist, but it's a way of short-term help to people in need. Not the best, but not a very time consuming one either. It's simply better than not doing it.



Boycotting as a tactic isn't a replacement for actual actions and organizing as I've said in every single one of my posts in this thread (i've actually copyed that line there into the clipboard so I can just paste it) What boycotting (in the way I've mentioned) does is put your life where your fucking mouth is.

I agree with this so much.

[black magick hustla]

Boycotting as a tactic isn't a replacement for actual actions and organizing as I've said in every single one of my posts in this thread (i've actually copyed that line there into the clipboard so I can just paste it) What boycotting (in the way I've mentioned) does is put your life where your fucking mouth is.

No it does not put your "life where your mouth is". it doesnt do anything at all. At the very worst the sweatshop goes bankrupt and these people have no jobs.i am a communist, not a liberal. i dont care about consumption habits at all.

[Ele'ill]

Breaking: Oscar Grant's murderer just got involuntary manslaughter

[Ele'ill]

No it does not put your "life where your mouth is". it doesnt do anything at all. At the very worst the sweatshop goes bankrupt and these people have no jobs.i am a communist, not a liberal. i dont care about consumption habits at all.


Consumption habits are a huge deal but we can leave that for another thread.

The original poster asked how to not contribute and if it was possible. It is possible and I've listed why.

I've also listed why stuffing your face with mcdonalds while wearing your fancy new Gap jeans makes you more of a pig than an activist.

No organizer or activist would spend their hours working towards something and then support it in the manner you're describing in anyway shape or form. Too much time invested, too many heart breaking and gut wrenching memories and fucking stress. You can tell who is serious about organizing and activism and who is there for the image.


The sweatshops aren't going to go bankrupt. We're not talking about a pissant company emerging in a fully used up and spaceless market. These companies have billions and perhaps trillions invested in back up plans alone.

Know what happens when the privately owned sweatshops start to die off and move out?
That means the corporation has pulled out. Unless another one opens and they get their jobs back or they go elsewhere.

It's a fucking dance that boycotting in the manner I've discussed won't affect but what it will do is liberate your fucking self from them and move you into the realm of credible.

My comments were in regards to the Original Poster of this thread- He or She wanted to know how and if it was possible to avoid that stuff.

It is and I've explained why.

[Sendo]

all i can say is given the horrific crimes of Coca Cola in the 3rd world, i'm happy to just get some local, equally cheap knock off brand for parties. Also, not drinking Coke is good too. It's probably good to not indulge in capitalist consumerism too much since the shopping 1st worlders do is unsustainable.

I'd be a hypocrite if I praised the Soviet Union and the PRC while eating steaks every day, knowing that no socialist society could allocate red meat to everyone every day (the raising of that many cattle is materially impossible). But no, I'm not the principled, hardcore, preachy Vegan either.

And knowing Wal-Mart's buying from foreign sweatshops and breaking labor laws and waste dumping laws in America, I'll go to Target. If Target takes Wal-Mart's place, I'll go to the next lesser evil. No big deal to do so.