Marx's Social Class

[Cyberwave]

Marx was born into wealth, but would exactly would he fall into after becoming a Communist? I believe he rarely used what access to wealth he had and I've heard his father didn't give him inheritances but am not sure. I believe Marx was proletarian because he didn't retain access to the means of production, he lived an existence that was in opposition to the state and capitalism, he contributed greatly to Communist theory, he criticized the petty-bourgeois whom some claim he belonged to, he was involved in class struggles (Pars Commune), and he risked his life really for revolution.

I ask this because a Maoist Third Worldist is asserting that Marx, Engels, and Lenin were all "petty bourgeois" and the notion seems rather ridiculous to me. He claims they were just "class traitors."

[Adil3tr]

Marx actual lived in poverty much of his life. His friend Engels supported him so he could write. They were class traitors, Marx's father was a well off politician, and Engel's father owned a factory and a business. I'm a class traitor too...

[Adil3tr]

A lot of people were class traitors, Marx, Engels and Lenin were born to better off families. This was how they could learn, read, and create this deep, deep analysis and philosophy.

[Pavlov's House Party]

Who cares. Marxists accept dialectical materialism because it is a scientific analysis of history and the relations of class society, not because Marx and Engels were "hella prole".

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

Ultimately, even though they were born off to better families, I think they and many people that I know support marxism because they see what they have/had and then they get a full glimpse of what those whom are poorer have. When they see this, they become sadden and even ashamed especially once they come to realize how much excess there really is. It is in this realization the one comes to realize that everyone who is alive can live a good life simply because the resources do exist and that contrary to what we've been told for our entire life's, we know that everyone can be equalized to a great life full of joy, happiness and opportunity.

[BAM]

Marx's wife, Jenny von Westphalen, was from a well-connected Prussian aristocratic family. Her father was a senior official in the Prussian Royal Government. Her half-brother Ferdinand from her father's first marriage was Minister for the Interior, who in all likelihood sent spies to Dean Street, London, in the 1850s in a campaign against political conspirators.

[KC]

I ask this because a Maoist Third Worldist is asserting that Marx, Engels, and Lenin were all "petty bourgeois" and the notion seems rather ridiculous to me. He claims they were just "class traitors."

Instead of playing into his line of reasoning you could just tell them that's a stupid thing to argue and completely irrelevant. But then again it's a Third-Worldist and they're not really well known for using their brains.

[BeerShaman]

Marx was born into wealth, but would exactly would he fall into after becoming a Communist? I believe he rarely used what access to wealth he had and I've heard his father didn't give him inheritances but am not sure. I believe Marx was proletarian because he didn't retain access to the means of production, he lived an existence that was in opposition to the state and capitalism, he contributed greatly to Communist theory, he criticized the petty-bourgeois whom some claim he belonged to, he was involved in class struggles (Pars Commune), and he risked his life really for revolution.

I ask this because a Maoist Third Worldist is asserting that Marx, Engels, and Lenin were all "petty bourgeois" and the notion seems rather ridiculous to me. He claims they were just "class traitors."
Don't say "Third Worldist". This is capitalist s**t!

[BeerShaman]

Instead of playing into his line of reasoning you could just tell them that's a stupid thing to argue and completely irrelevant. But then again it's a Third-Worldist and they're not really well known for using their brains.
Using the term 3-worldist and believing they are stupid or something which makes them inferior is racist! Don't provoke a flamewar here. Better to start a new thread!
Here: http://www.revleft.com/vb/third-worlds-t137985/index.html?p=1792589

[Cyberwave]

Using the term 3-worldist and believing they are stupid or something which makes them inferior is racist! Don't provoke a flamewar here. Better to start a new thread!

Well, technically, some Third Worldists themselves are the racist ones who believe there are no white proletariat. But still I think you're misunderstanding the term Third Worldism.

[Hit The North]

Whatever Marx's background, it makes no sense to call him petite bourgeois as this would necessitate him owning small capital.

He was a political exile, blacklisted from working as an academic and forced to write journalism which would barely support him and his family and so relied upon handouts from Engels. Taking this into account, I'd say Marx's class position should be described as Lumpen Intelligentsia. :lol:

[Cyberwave]

The point the Maoist Third Worldist was trying to make is that Marx was a "class traitor" and developed his own sense of class consciousness in regards to the proletariat. He is saying that bourgeois are therefore capable of achieving class consciousness and joining revolutions. Keep in mind he is a Maoist so is also responding to the criticism that New Democracy allows bourgeois to thrive. At least I think that's what he is trying to say.

[Adil3tr]

Ultimately, even though they were born off to better families, I think they and many people that I know support marxism because they see what they have/had and then they get a full glimpse of what those whom are poorer have. When they see this, they become sadden and even ashamed especially once they come to realize how much excess there really is. It is in this realization the one comes to realize that everyone who is alive can live a good life simply because the resources do exist and that contrary to what we've been told for our entire life's, we know that everyone can be equalized to a great life full of joy, happiness and opportunity.

Well yes, Marx visited a community of wood cutters. He realized how they worked so hard yet lived so poorly. So he divided to turn against capitalism and break it apart in Capital, exposing his exploitative core.

[Adil3tr]

Petite Bourgeois can become real revolutionaries. My father is a Doctor, we are upper middle class, and I am a member of the ISO. I completely believe in Marx's theory and Lenin and Trotsky' practice.