Where did socialism begin?

[GodLike1001]

Did the Socialist theory originate from Karl Marx's ideas?

what is the first socialist state? Would it be Soviet Russia?

Is modern socialist values different to those that once existed? I dont think America can ever become a socialist nation, however it can adopt socialist values such as universal health and education...are these modern socialist goals?

any help is appreciated.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Did the Socialist theory originate from Karl Marx's ideas?

Not really. The idea of common ownership of property and equal distribution of resources has existed throughout history in different types of society. But the theory itself was laid out by Marx. He is by no means 'the founder' of socialism or communism though. This doesn't mean Marx is everything and is always valid though. Writers such as Kropotkin have challenged the way Marx's analysis of the state. Others have offered an alternative stage to the transitional stage to communism that Marx lays out.


what is the first socialist state? Would it be Soviet Russia?

Socialism has never been properly achieved. Short lived examples of worker ownership and self management do exist but are usually isolated and suppressed by the capitalist class. Communism is an internationalist ideal and a revolution must spread worldwide to succeed.


Is modern socialist values different to those that once existed?

I wouldn't say so. The values and goals of socialism are the same today: to create an equal, just society based on common ownership and mass decision making. What we have now is technology that 19th century and early 20th century revolutionaries did not know of.


I dont think America can ever become a socialist nation, however it can adopt socialist values such as universal health and education...are these modern socialist goals?

any help is appreciated.

Of course it can. What makes you think it can? America has a massive working class.

[Blake's Baby]

Nuts! Ninja'd by Stranger than paradise, with whom I have very few disagreements. Anyway, here's my answer:



Socialism is a very wide topic and lots of people define it differently.

The roots of socialism - desire for an egalitarian society, for instance - go back thousands of years. They're there in Greek philosophy, Buddhism, Taoism and Christianity. The Spartans practiced a form of Communism, the early Christians were communitarian.

Specific theories of social change long pre-date Marx. Marx himself was inspired by previous and contemporary thinkers such as Fourier, St Simon and Owen. He also, crucially, was involvewd with the Communist League in the 1840s; it is from them that he 'learned' Communism - he connected his own speculations and inquiries into class society with a movement that could transform it.

Some of us don't believe in 'socialist states', for Marx there are no classes in socialism, and as the state is the tool for one class to oppress another, without classes there are no states either. So there never have been any socialist states. What there have been are isolated areas where the working class has overthrown the capitalist order. However many of us believe that these were only ever brief interludes before capitalism restored itself. Because the revolution has never been worldwide, there has never been the opportunity to go beyond capitalism, which, as a world system, must be abolished worldwide.

But the Russian Revolution and the establishment of the Soviet Republic in the period 1917-21, the midst of a revolutionary wave affecting not only Russia but Germany, Hungary, Italy, and finding echoes in Britain, Canada and the USA, was the closest we have ever come to overthrowing capitalism worldwide.

Marx's acheivement is not to 'invent' socialism but to put it on a systematic and 'scientific' footing. There are arguments about how 'scientific' scientific socialism is, but I doubt anyone seriously subscribes to any pre-Marxist school of socialism. Except the Christaian Socialists, and they're something of a special case.

Can America ever be 'socialist'? If you mean state healthcare and a publically-funded education system, then probably it can. Most other developed countries manage it, why not the USA? However, I'd argue that there's nothing inherently revolutionary about this at all. In Britain, the Welfare State legislation that the 'Labour' governemnt introduced after WWII was actually planned by the Conservatives before the Great Depression in the 20s-30s. They believed that it would be cheaper in the long run for British Capitalism to centralise health provision in order to ensure that they had a healthy workforce but also to drive down wages. So these sorts of policies can be espoused by both Right and Left under capitalism, they aren't any more than 'Reformist' (seeking to reform capitalism, not destroy it).

If you mean, a revolutionary overthrow of capitalism and the institution of a new classless society, then I hope America can become socialist, because otherwise we might as well all give up everywhere, because we've already lost the fight. The revolution must be worldwide to be successful. But as the attacks of capitalism on the working class will take place in America as much as other countries, I think it's very probable that the American working class will increasingly challenge the notion that capitalism is the right and natural system.

Many other posters will perhaps disagree with these points.

[Zanthorus]

Did the Socialist theory originate from Karl Marx's ideas?

The ideas that led to socialism go back thousands of years. The origins of modern socialism can probably be found in Gracchus Babeuf who led the not-so-famous conspiracy of the equals in the French revolution. His ideas were then re-awakened a few years later by his friend and co-conspirator Philippe Buonarroti who greatly influenced Auguste Blanqui. Apart from that kind of insurrectionary socialism there was also the so-called "utopian socialists" - Robert Owen, Charles Fourier and Saint-Simon - and their followers.

Marx's achievment was to unite socialism with the working-class movement. Prior to Marx socialists had stood in opposition to working class movements, so the Owenists in England stood in opposition to the Chartists for example. He took it out of the realm of nice abstract utopia and based it on the global activity of the working-class. Some say this constituted a "scientific" advance... although I'm wary of throwing the word "science" around all that freely.


what is the first socialist state? Would it be Soviet Russia?

The Red October was the start of a worldwide insurrectionary wave against capital which appeared in various forms in various countries as the November revolution and Spartacist uprising in Germany for example or the biennio rosso in Italy. Unfortunately by 1923 it had basically all but fizzled out. What happened next in Russia is still very much open for debate.

However unless you use "socialism" in the same way as Lenin to refer to the stage between capitalism and communism then there has never really been any "socialist" states (And nor could there really be, if we take the state to be political society divorced from civil society).

[RED VICTORY]

1. Karl Marx's ideas were inspired by several previous thinkers. The Norton Critical Edition of the Communist Manifesto has an intro that covers the sources of the ideas he developed. Owen-Proudhoun-etc.

2. This question should cause lively debate. I think Soviet Russia started out with the best intentions....then Lenin died. Many people call the Soviet Union a degenerated workers state others call it state capitalist and many feel it was socialist and still working out the bugs to put it very mildly. Before Soviet Russia there was failed Communes and failed utopian colonies. So the Soviet Union was probably the first solid crack at Socialism. But for the sake of the movement most of us must agree to disagree.

3. Well it has always been said that the Manifesto is a guide not the law. This means to show that we have to take into account our own political and economic environment the way countless other revolutionaries have throughout history. There have been distinct and unique conditions in every movement or revolution. But when you talk of Reform like universal health care or education we must remember these things, if put into action in America, are only creating "capitalism with a human face". When the Bourgeois make concessions like these entitlement programs it only prolongs our struggle and blurs the lines between the classes. The Bottom Line is we need to forget about reform, we don't need the table scraps. We need to let them take more and more from the people....and let that line between us and them become so visible, so apparent, so obvious that we will have that most favourable condition.