The problem of Race

[Mahatma Gandhi]

Comrades!:D

I know the leftist view on race - that it doesn't exist except as a social construct, it is arbitrary and all that.

But when I talked to my autistic friend (who also suffers from a split personality disorder and possibly bipolar as well), he said who cares? He said the leftists are 'overthinking' this matter and coming up with lots of theories when this whole matter concerns the body.

He says race isn't an idea but an instinct with which the one body identifies another body for potential mating. Naturally, like attracts like, which is why we're always attracted to people who look like us or have something in common with us; in effect, it is just a sexual thing, nothing more, so leftists should stop 'intellectualizing' matters that concern the flesh. It is like 'intellectualizing' hunger and such bodily concerns.

I know his views are a little controversial, but isn't it true that we're often attracted to those who look like us? I mean, that's why we always say: my girl and I have so much in common, and so forth. We never say, "Hey, we have nothing in common and we love it; our relationship is growing because of that."

Based on this, is it possible that race isn't some complicated issue that requires a lot of thinking and analyzing, but a simple matter of sex? Using race, people tend to identify potential mates (because going by evolutionary theory, man wants to spread the love and his genes;) around).

Is my friend right at least in this respect?

Mahatma

[#FF0000]

Your friend is right in that people tend to find similarities between themselves and others within their in-group.

But that in-group doesn't necessarily have anything to do with skin-color.

So, other than that literally nothing your friend said is right in the least.

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

I know his views are a little controversial, but isn't it true that we're often attracted to those who look like us? I mean, that's why we always say: my girl and I have so much in common, and so forth. We never say, "Hey, we have nothing in common and we love it; our relationship is growing because of that."

Based on this, is it possible that race isn't some complicated issue that requires a lot of thinking and analyzing, but a simple matter of sex? Using race, people tend to identify potential mates (because going by evolutionary theory, man wants to spread the love and his genes;) around).

Is my friend right at least in this respect?

Mahatma

No, he is absolutely wrong. Opposites attract!

Basically what your friend is proposing is that "miscegenation" is universally and instinctually considered a bad thing, which isn't true at all.

[Glenn Beck]

Based on this, is it possible that race isn't some complicated issue that requires a lot of thinking and analyzing, but a simple matter of sex?

Not really, no. Basically explanations that boil complex things down to sex are something you say to ridicule an authority figure or something you write to sell newspapers and paperbacks.

I don't really see how saying "race is a social construct" is overanalyzing at all. If anything, it's the opposite, what that explanation says is "It's bullshit, and people made it up.". If you believe otherwise, that race is has some kind of independent reality, you need to make up some bullshit story to explain what the heck it even is and what it means and how it got there and all that, like your friend did.

Also your friend should probably stop taking those online self-diagnosis quizzes.

[Dimentio]

You are your friend, right?

"Dear youth counsellor

My friend have got's lots and lots of white spots on his weenie. Is he abnormal?"

[mikelepore]

The fact that people from different parts of the world look different is not a social convention. The colors of birds from different locations are also different. That's an interesting observation from nature. What is a social convention is to classify people according to it, and to act as though the classification has any importance in the relationships among ourselves. Suppose that, due to many years of geographical separation, people whose ancestors came from north, south, east and west had different hat sizes or glove sizes -- would it then be necessary to consciously classify everyone according to those criteria? It would seem ridiculous to do that. However, when people look at other people, the first thing they see is their faces, and there they find something that they can classify. Therefore a habit of classification according to superficial appearance has become traditional, and people speak in terms of races. The practice should be seen to be pointless and abandoned.

[GPDP]

You are your friend, right?

"Dear youth counsellor

My friend have got's lots and lots of white spots on his weenie. Is he abnormal?"

lmao, my thoughts exactly. The fact that his "friend" is also autistic gave it away.

[Lumpen Bourgeois]

Your "friend's" theory reduces the issue of "race" to mere mate selection. I think this is an oversimplification.

How does this theory account for the substantial amount of genetic admixture between physically distinct populations(or "races" to put it crudely) who live in close proximity to each other?

Let's also take into consideration that people who are physically similar to one another also tend to share similar cultural traits and language that would facilitate mating amongst themselves.

Indeed, the purported tendency for people to be attracted to those who look more like them might have little to do with "race".

[Mahatma Gandhi]

Thanks for the replies although I do wonder whether people read before responding; it seems like most of you are more interested in making personal attacks than answering the question.:mad:

Anyhow, let me explain this a bit more: Man, despite his intellectual pretensions, is essentially a sexual being. He is more or less an animal that wants to propagate his species; it is instinctive, not something he consciously does. His whole life revolves around seeking a mate, and he seeks a mate who is compatible; hence, he seeks someone that looks like him.

In this context, if a guy says he is only attracted to certain people, do we interpret that as something to do with race or do we assume it is just a matter of sexual preference? I am trying to make a distinction between racial and sexual preference. If a guy says he isn't attracted to a certain ethnic group, is he racist? Or, is he merely implying (on a subconscious level and therefore he may not realize it himself!) that he cannot possibly find a compatible mate in that particular ethnic group?

[MarxSchmarx]

The fact that people from different parts of the world look different is not a social convention. The colors of birds from different locations are also different. That's an interesting observation from nature. What is a social convention is to classify people according to it, and to act as though the classification has any importance in the relationships among ourselves. Suppose that, due to many years of geographical separation, people whose ancestors came from north, south, east and west had different hat sizes or glove sizes -- would it then be necessary to consciously classify everyone according to those criteria? It would seem ridiculous to do that. However, when people look at other people, the first thing they see is their faces, and there they find something that they can classify. Therefore a habit of classification according to superficial appearance has become traditional, and people speak in terms of races. The practice should be seen to be pointless and abandoned.

Yes of course I agree; the problem is that these arbitrary conventions have taken on a life of their own and are realized social phenomena. Thus although there should be no logical or biological reason to believe that any particular individual of a given race has trait XYZ, it is still the case that it is rational to believe that that individual has trait XYZ. For example, in Europe, Australia or the Americas, it is rational to believe that between a caucasian individual and an individual of african descent, without knowing anything else about them, that the caucasian individual makes more money. That certainly doesn't mean it's a good thing, but it is an objective, social (but not biological) reality - and one which needs to be acknowledged. Only by recognizing that race, even if it is a social construct, does have serious objective consequences can we effectively struggle against it.


He says race isn't an idea but an instinct with which the one body identifies another body for potential mating. Naturally, like attracts like, which is why we're always attracted to people who look like us or have something in common with us; in effect, it is just a sexual thing, nothing more, so leftists should stop 'intellectualizing' matters that concern the flesh. It is like 'intellectualizing' hunger and such bodily concerns.I bet your friend doesn't interact with people of other races very much. And while it might be true that we are more attracted to people who have something in common with us, race isn't the only thing that we might or might not share in common with another individual. For example, I bet this friend would be more attracted to a person of a different race who enjoys the same kinds of hobbies than a person of the same race with whom they have nothing to talk about with.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Anyhow, let me explain this a bit more: Man, despite his intellectual pretensions, is essentially a sexual being. He is more or less an animal that wants to propagate his species; it is instinctive, not something he consciously does. His whole life revolves around seeking a mate, and he seeks a mate who is compatible; hence, he seeks someone that looks like him.

What is the evidence that human males are attracted to people who look like them. If that was true, why would they have passes laws against inter-racial sexual relations in the US? Why would the KKK have been so terrified of white women dating black men... why was this concept an obsession in racist jim-crow america: enough that they invented separate a word for these kinds of relationships? Why would there be creoles or intermarriages between native people and why would most African Americans have whites and native Americans in their family backgrounds? Why would early US society be obsessed and frightened by the stories of people "going native" and joining native tribes... why would native American bands accept blacks and whites into their communities and inter-married with them? Why would white slave-owners have regularly raped or had relationships with their slaves? Why would there be so many people in Vietnam whose fathers were GIs? Why would imperialist militaries always create a whole new prostitution industry of women from the occupied countries when they set up bases there?

And for that matter, what about women? For tens of thousands of years, I doubt that women could be oppressed by men. Anthropologists have found many nomadic cultures where women have choice in mates.


In this context, if a guy says he is only attracted to certain people, do we interpret that as something to do with race or do we assume it is just a matter of sexual preference?I think attractions can be informed by society as well - the "ideal" female types have changed many times throughout history and is different in different cultures. This goes for other preference we are not conscious of making: if someone in the US was given a plate of food and told it was rat (or dog for that matter) prepared by the best chef, the American would not want to take a bite no matter how much you assure them that it tastes fine and was sanitary.

In the US under jim-crow, I'm sure many people who did not think of themselves as racist and maybe even tried to treat each individual fairly, would have been turned off by the idea of dating a black woman. In fact, the racism of that society told black women that they were undesirable.

[MarxSchmarx]

Jimmie Higgins I agree with you but the racists have found ways to convince themselves ways to convince themselves of the validity of their arguments


What is the evidence that human males are attracted to people who look like them.

In multi racial societies people tend to get married to and date people of the same race; there could be a number of alternative explanations, but it is nevertheless "evidence" (but not conclusive proof) that males are attracted to people that look like them.


If that was true, why would they have passes laws against inter-racial sexual relations in the US?

Because, they say, it is a perversion just like they need their laws against homosexuals.


Why would there be creoles or intermarriages between native people and why would most African Americans have whites native americans in their family backgrounds?

Of course, a lot of those people historically are the outcome of rapes e.g.,



Why would white slave-owners have regularly rapped or had relationships with their slaves?



On this I may agree with the other side - I am not at all sure that is a result of attraction as such.


Why would there be so many people in Vietnam whose fathers were GIs? Why would imperialist militaries always create a whole new prostitution industry of women from the occupied countries when they set up bases there?


Because women of their own race are not around?

Let me reiterate that I think this a bullshit explanation, but nonetheless for the sake of concreteness these are the likely responses.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Jimmie Higgins I agree with you but the racists have found ways to convince themselves ways to convince themselves of the validity of their argumentsWell I doubt any logical argument would convince a conscious racist. But someone who is sincere but just casually accepts commonly made arguments about things can be prodded to question their ideas if confronted by contradictory evidence.

[Mahatma Gandhi]

What is the evidence that human males are attracted to people who look like them.

I said man as in humanity, not necessarily the male gender. Anyway, dating and marriages are the evidence, I suppose. Is it also possible that interracial marriages could be more a fad than anything else? Sort of like the forbidden fruit.:crying: Also, there are practical benefits such as getting a green card and all that.

Regarding Jim Crow laws, that's got to do with politics. Regarding rape incidents under imperialist rule, that's all about power and domination rather than attraction.

But if we leave all that aside and focus only on the physical aspect of the relationship, what do we get?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Ok, devil's advocate:lol:... I'll bite.

In multi racial societies people tend to get married to and date people of the same race; there could be a number of alternative explanations, but it is nevertheless "evidence" (but not conclusive proof) that males are attracted to people that look like them.So fat men are generally primarily attracted to fat women? If that were true - considering the girth of most US men, Gabrielle Fox would only be considered attractive by starving men and most female sex symbols today would weigh 200 pounds, not 110.


Because, they say, it is a perversion just like they need their laws against homosexuals.This one is just circular logic.


Of course, a lot of those people historically are the outcome of rapes e.g., Not true, but even in the case where there is rape, generally it's the man who does the raping - so that doesn't negate male attraction to people of other races... until we get down to the next section anyway.


On this I may agree with the other side - I am not at all sure that is a result of attraction as such.Well never an equal attraction anyway. Well if part of rape is just about dominating people, this still doesn't explain rape of slaves who are already pretty dominated and so there is no "power" to be gained from the act of "stealing sex" since the sex is "owned" already. And if attraction on some level didn't play a part and it was purely about domination, did male slave-owners rape their males slaves just as much? If not, then sexual attraction at some level played a part.


Because women of their own race are not around?Then why is there sex-tourism of Europeans to some Asian places known for their prostitution?


Let me reiterate that I think this a bullshit explanation, but nonetheless for the sake of concreteness these are the likely responses.Maybe, but my answers above would not be my likely response to a hard-core racist.:lol:

:mad:

[The Red Next Door]

[QUOTE=Mahatma Gandhi;17917

But when I talked to my autistic friend (who also suffers from a split personality disorder and possibly bipolar as well),

Mahatma[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes: jesus christ!

[Aeval]

Is it also possible that interracial marriages could be more a fad than anything else?

Is it possible that the millions of interracial relationships are more of a fad than anything else? This is literally one of the stupidest things I've ever read - no, I some how don't think that people are getting with people of different "races" just because it's the "in" thing to do at the moment :rolleyes:


If a guy says he isn't attracted to a certain ethnic group, is he racist?

It depends - if he is simply and genuinely not attracted to a certain physical feature, be that related to skin colour, body shape, what ever, then that's not being racist, that's just not being in to someone.

If, however, he decides in advance that he will not be attracted to them, and certainly won't get into a relationship with them, based purely on them belonging to a certain ethnic group and despite the fact that he may well actually be attracted to them, then yes, that sounds pretty racist to me.

[Glenn Beck]

If a guy says he isn't attracted to a certain ethnic group, is he racist?

Yes


Or, is he merely implying (on a subconscious level and therefore he may not realize it himself!) that he cannot possibly find a compatible mate in that particular ethnic group?

That is what he is telling himself

[synthesis]

Anyhow, let me explain this a bit more: Man, despite his intellectual pretensions, is essentially a sexual being. He is more or less an animal that wants to propagate his species; it is instinctive, not something he consciously does. His whole life revolves around seeking a mate, and he seeks a mate who is compatible; hence, he seeks someone that looks like him.

Source?

[Mahatma Gandhi]

Source?

The way humans live... ? Isn't that proof enough?

[Mahatma Gandhi]

Yes



That is what he is telling himself

You're saying that's just an excuse that people come up with to hide their racist tendencies? What of preferences, then? Aren't they natural? Many people do find certain features and certain skin tone attractive....

[Jimmie Higgins]

The way humans live... ? Isn't that proof enough?About 80% of my high school and college friends as well as my Grandparents and myself disprove this observation. It's nonsense, while my current partner is the same race (leaving aside that I am a white skinned blond guy with a dark skinned Grandfather from Mexico) I have dated people from several different races as have most people I know my age. In my grandparent's generation it was much more of a scandal - so this supports the argument that racial preference in attraction has more to do with the situation in society, than any biological factor.

[RGacky3]

Aren't they natural? Many people do find certain features and certain skin tone attractive....

So what? THat does'nt make them something to by which it makes sense to categorize people by. Some guys like tall girls some guys like sorter ones, that does'nt mean that its something you should categorize other than the physical aspect of it.

[JohnnyC]

The way humans live... ? Isn't that proof enough?
I don't live that way and I'm a human.Unless you get some evidence, which you can't since there aren't any, you should stop generalizing your stupid (and unsubstantiated, obviously) view of sexuality in which different "races" don't attract.

[#FF0000]

So what? THat does'nt make them something to by which it makes sense to categorize people by. Some guys like tall girls some guys like sorter ones, that does'nt mean that its something you should categorize other than the physical aspect of it.

Exactly. Short people aren't a different race from tall people.

[Mahatma Gandhi]

I don't live that way and I'm a human.Unless you get some evidence, which you can't since there aren't any, you should stop generalizing your stupid (and unsubstantiated, obviously) view of sexuality in which different "races" don't attract.

Could people stop being so aggressive? All I am saying is, Even in so-called multicultural societies, you often find people separated by physical features. (such as Chinese keeping to themselves, Caucasians avoiding anything brown/black and so on). Whether or not one calls that race is beside the point. Point is, people live in groups, and those groups are usually determined by the color of your skin. Unfortunate but true.

[JohnnyC]

Could people stop being so aggressive?
I didn't mean to be aggressive, I just think your opinion is stupid.



All I am saying is, Even in so-called multicultural societies, you often find people separated by physical features. (such as Chinese keeping to themselves, Caucasians avoiding anything brown/black and so on). Whether or not one calls that race is beside the point. Point is, people live in groups, and those groups are usually determined by the color of your skin. Unfortunate but true.

Source, please?Beside open racists I can't imagine there are many people who intentionally avoid living nearby someone of different skin colour.And please, if you want your opinions to become something more than that, at least try to source them.I know there aren't many studies that support your views but if you search for it on stormfront long enough I'm sure you could come up with something. ;)

[RGacky3]

All I am saying is, Even in so-called multicultural societies, you often find people separated by physical features. (such as Chinese keeping to themselves, Caucasians avoiding anything brown/black and so on). Whether or not one calls that race is beside the point. Point is, people live in groups, and those groups are usually determined by the color of your skin. Unfortunate but true.

First of all I'm gonna second Johnny C, most people don't do that.

Second, in most multi-cultural societies, there are hundreds and hundreds of years of historical racism and cultural tensions, that stuff does'nt get erased over night.

Also, that stuff is not at all determined by color of skin, its culture.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Exactly. Short people aren't a different race from tall people.

Yeah they are. They have little hands, little eyes and they walk around telling great big lies.

They truly have no reason to live.

[synthesis]

The way humans live... ? Isn't that proof enough?

I didn't ask you why you believed it to be true, because I don't really care. (No offense.) I asked you for a source, which might negate the fact that you're just some random guy on the Internet making sweeping generalizations about the meaning of society and life without offering any satisfactory evidence or even remotely considering the possibility of the numerous counter-arguments that could be made against your definition of that meaning.

You said:


His whole life revolves around seeking a mate, and he seeks a mate who is compatible; hence, he seeks someone that looks like him.

Then, when pressed for a source for this obviously disputable argument, you responded:


The way humans live... ? Isn't that proof enough?

I just don't have the patience to actually type out the dozens of reasons why this perspective is factually incorrect, overly limited, and/or flush with what Nicholas Taleb called "epistemic arrogance."

Circular logic? Check. Fallacy of silent evidence? Check. Is/ought? Check. Argumentum ad antiquitatem? Check. That might be one of the most statistically fallacious series of statements I've ever read.

You should either: 1, provide a source so as to shift some of the burden of defending such a ridiculous argument onto another unfortunate soul who would at least have the advantage of being elsewhere, or 2, give up and just accept the fact that your dick is racist. That's not your fault, but trying to intellectualize it most certainly is.

[Mahatma Gandhi]

because I don't really care. (No offense.) I asked you for a source, which .

What's wrong with you? I just gave you a source: history is a good source. So is evolution. What more do you want me to say?:confused:

[Ele'ill]

Could people stop being so aggressive?

Stop trolling.



All I am saying is, Even in so-called multicultural societies, you often find people separated by physical features (such as Chinese keeping to themselves, Caucasians avoiding anything brown/black and so on). Whether or not one calls that race is beside the point. Point is, people live in groups, and those groups are usually determined by the color of your skin. Unfortunate but true.

It's socially easier to live in a foreign land with people that speak your native language. It's safer to spend time in a foreign land with people you're comfortable with and essentially with people that you can read.

A lot of the ethnicities you listed- despite your psudo-racist observations- are likely already mixed.

[synthesis]

I just gave you a source: history is a good source. So is evolution.

No, a source is a book, an author, a published academic article.

"History" and "evolution" are not sources. They are words. Try again.


What more do you want me to say?:confused:

"I've considered what you've had to say, and given the lack of actual evidence otherwise, I have revised my perspective accordingly."

That's not what you will say, because you're a troll, but that's what I want you to say, because I have this naive hope that you possess some capacity for intellectual honesty, but I won't hold my breath.

[Glenn Beck]

You're saying that's just an excuse that people come up with to hide their racist tendencies? What of preferences, then? Aren't they natural? Many people do find certain features and certain skin tone attractive....

Yes, the need to racialize such an issue is evidence of racist tendencies.

It might not be inherently racist to say "I'm not into *X* girls" but it's generally a really good indicator that someone is racist that they felt the need to express such a sentiment. It's a very broad generalization to make and a rather harsh one at that; the odds of it being the product of racist attitudes are much higher than the odds of it being simply an innocuous sexual preference.