fetish of violence part deux [Archive]

black magick hustla

3rd July 2010, 00:24

I read that dumb thread by subcomandante marcos - am i the only that thinks his concern is actually valid?

idk the left has always used a sort of violent imagery that it is understandable but at the same time i think it misses the crux of the question. there are a lot of fap fap fap worth threads and fap fap fap worth members that fantasize about post-apocalyptic america and techo-communist militias vaporizing bourgeois cyborgs or whatever. communism was never about violence - violence is seemed as a tool but it was never an end on itself and it was never about a glorified violence. i mean i have my own shitty fantasies, in one of my own short stories i wrote about a prole kid that chopped a soldiers limbs and gouged his eyes out only to put them in the soldiers' mouth and to hang the torso from a high tree. it was kindof fun to write about it but it was never meant to be a serious political statement.

communism is a flower that will not grow with blood

Lyev

3rd July 2010, 00:28

Yup, I think it's a perfectly valid concern. I'll just quickly repost what I posted in that thread before I go to bed.
But I'm not sure social revolution needs to be "violent", per se. To be honest, violence could or might fail, against the wealth and arms of the USA, UK, India, China etc.; I'm not sure why abolishing a social relation and instituting a whole new mode of production inherently entails blowing loads of shit up, manning the forklifts and arming the homeless. In fact, I'm fairly sure it doesn't really need this. If "the people" (pardon me for using such an ambiguous word, I just mean the vast majority of a said society) wants abolition of wage-labour, money, the state, classes, exploitation etc. then it will happen.And I think, if we sort of just assume that social revolution, for the most part, will be bloodless with little fighting, it will help win more people to our cause. We're not exactly going to help ourselves by telling normal, everyday people: "join us so you can die with a gun in your hands!!"

Os Cangaceiros

3rd July 2010, 00:33

Violence! Chaos! Death! Fire!

That's what my comrades and I are all about.

black magick hustla

3rd July 2010, 00:36

Violence! Chaos! Death! Fire!

That's what my comrades and I are all about.

i assure you therer are some people in revleft that are kindof like that. see my avatar

XxKrebsxX

3rd July 2010, 00:41

Hiratsuka

3rd July 2010, 00:41

I think it's a perfectly valid remark. The only problem with the other thread was that a hypocrite created it who just recently charged Americans of not rioting enough, haha.

XxKrebsxX

3rd July 2010, 00:42

I think it's a perfectly valid remark. The only problem with the other thread was that a hypocrite created it who just recently charged Americans of not rioting enough, haha.

The only problem is that you be posting at the exact same time as me. :lol:

Adi Shankara

3rd July 2010, 02:14

You know, you're right. The concern is valid; I hope that socialism happens through democracy. I just cannot fathom that a violent revolution would lead to anything except authoritarianism with state officials being the new elite.

Careful that you don't be labeled a "revisionist" :rolleyes:

I'm not saying all, but it seems as if some people on here really have a problem with democracy. like I understand democracy can't happen in an inequal state, so a revolution must be had first...but some people want to rule out democracy all together, or they support dictatorships (North Korea, for example) antithetical to communism and democracy.

dutch master

3rd July 2010, 02:19

You people need to stop pretending and join the Democratic Party already.

XxKrebsxX

3rd July 2010, 02:19

Careful that you don't be labeled a "revisionist" :rolleyes:

I'm not saying all, but it seems as if some people on here really have a problem with democracy. like I understand democracy can't happen in an inequal state, so a revolution must be had first...but some people want to rule out democracy all together, or they support dictatorships (North Korea, for example) antithetical to communism and democracy.

I don't care what others may label me as. I'm not all about going rambo ruining a democracy and spilling blood in the process. I cannot imagine being under a dictatorship; whether it was by a fellow socialist or a capitalist. It's just as bad.

By the by, people....support....North Korea....?

Are you serious? The hell is wrong with people? :confused:

bcbm

3rd July 2010, 02:43

You people need to stop pretending and join the Democratic Party already.

yeah, they hate violence (http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/03/28/obama.afghanistan/index.html)

Revy

3rd July 2010, 03:12

You people need to stop pretending and join the Democratic Party already.

How about no.

black magick hustla

3rd July 2010, 03:57

You people need to stop pretending and join the Democratic Party already.

hey u knoe wat revoluttion cums from the barel of a gun tell us bout it while u type from your dads keyboard

this is an invasion

3rd July 2010, 04:03

Of course the fetishizing of violence is ridiculous. The reason why people jumped on his shit was because he made it sound like violence is all we talk about on RevLeft. And that's totally ridiculous.

Plus, the threads he kept mentioning were by wingnut keyboard warriors that probably have no real experience in the streets or with actual projects.

durhamleft

3rd July 2010, 04:33

I think people who were talking about arming homeless people and revolting with forklifts were naturally misguided. I think the left should currently be involved in bringing communities together and developing links and exterminating racism and promoting our cause- no violence at all except in some countries (like Russia) where there seems to be no choice.

In the long term however I think revolution is probably the only way we'll win, but we're a fuck of a long way away from that.

durhamleft

3rd July 2010, 04:34

You people need to stop pretending and join the Democratic Party already.

I think you're a troll.

XxKrebsxX

3rd July 2010, 04:38

hey u knoe wat revoluttion cums from the barel of a gun tell us bout it while u type from your dads keyboard

Don't you love keyboard warriors?

Foldered

3rd July 2010, 04:42

The thing is is that you can support violence in certain situations/you can justify it. While there is a growing concern of the fetishization of violence, I think it is, at least with regard to RevLeft, invalid or misplaced.
I mean, every time someone is overtly fetishizing violence here on RevLeft, they are normally called out for it in a productive manner (be it through intense sarcasm- a la Forkliftism- or through legitimate dialogue, etc).
In other words, I don't think it's as big an issue as it is being made out to be (by creating threads like this) and isn't really even worth discussing.

*shrug*

dutch master

3rd July 2010, 06:06

I think you're a troll.

And I think you're a ignorant petty bourgeois little white child who doesn't know a god damn thing about anything, and while soon grow out of your pseudo-revolutionary phase when you realize being a revolutionary actually requires hard work.

hey u knoe wat revoluttion cums from the barel of a gun tell us bout it while u type from your dads keyboardI've probably lead more protests, building occupations, strikes, etc, in the last year than you ever will.

Chambered Word

3rd July 2010, 06:10

OP, I only really thanked you because of the cool story you wrote.

Adi Shankara

3rd July 2010, 07:42

And I think you're a ignorant petty bourgeois little white child who doesn't know a god damn thing about anything, and while soon grow out of your pseudo-revolutionary phase when you realize being a revolutionary actually requires hard work.

If I didn't know better, I'd say you were being racist...what does race have to do with anything? how do you even know he's white or black or green?

this is an invasion

3rd July 2010, 08:07

And I think you're a ignorant petty bourgeois little white child who doesn't know a god damn thing about anything, and while soon grow out of your pseudo-revolutionary phase when you realize being a revolutionary actually requires hard work.

I've probably lead more protests, building occupations, strikes, etc, in the last year than you ever will.
lollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

Foldered

3rd July 2010, 09:33

I've probably lead more protests, building occupations, strikes, etc, in the last year than you ever will.
Oh, you've lead protests, building occupitions, strikes, etc.?

I guess we better bow down to your untouchable experience.

3rd July 2010, 14:27

@OP
I agree with what you've said, and violence fetishes are obviously dumb and immature, but I actually almost never encounter them among leftists IRL, and even on revleft it doesn't actually seem that bad anymore (but maybe I am blind or forgetful?) besides some idiots talking about revolutionary armies incessantly who mostly just get lolled at, and jacob richter, who I'm pretty sure is some kind of sado-masochist.
IDK, it is probably mostly little kids with violence fetishes, who probably mostly grow out of it after they go through puberty.

Bilan

3rd July 2010, 14:32

Stay on topic. No one cares.

Robocommie

3rd July 2010, 14:37

I've probably lead more protests, building occupations, strikes, etc, in the last year than you ever will.

You know what's just about as annoying as the Tough Guy On The Internet? The Grizzled Veteran On The Internet. Anyone can claim anything here, and it doesn't actually mean much.

Anyway, I think 9 had the right of it. As I see it, communism and socialism is inherently going to necessitate a certain level of militancy, because it is an ideology which calls for the overthrow of the old order, something which will inevitably lead us to conflict with those who want to keep the status quo. While anyone who is emotionally stable and grown up would prefer to see a bloodless transfer of power to the proletariat, I think anyone who is that grown up about things will also recognize that that's unlikely to be the case. Violence is one of the chief means the state uses to preserve itself, and so violence will certainly be one of the means revolutionaries must use to defend itself and to eventually be victorious. Because of that, we naturally have a militant political culture.

But then, really, there's also the fact that we oftentimes have a lot of younger members with us who are naturally a little more enamored with the romanticized image of warfare and violence, which is something they will hopefully in time grow out of. I know somebody accused me of ageism in the last thread, but well, it's true.

durhamleft

3rd July 2010, 17:48

And I think you're a ignorant petty bourgeois little white child who doesn't know a god damn thing about anything, and while soon grow out of your pseudo-revolutionary phase when you realize being a revolutionary actually requires hard work.

I've probably lead more protests, building occupations, strikes, etc, in the last year than you ever will.

www.***************

Go back where you belong silly person and strop spreading hate.

XxKrebsxX

3rd July 2010, 17:51

www.*************** (http://www.***************)

Go back where you belong silly person and strop spreading hate.

Horrible website that is right there....

dutch master

3rd July 2010, 18:22

***************

Go back where you belong silly person and strop spreading hate.

lol, how ridiculous. Only the stupidest of liberals pretending to be radicals could even possibly think they could get away with interpreting my remarks as racist. The Left in America, especially the anarchist and Trotskyite pseudo-Left, is completely divorced from the oppressed nationalities in this country. Most group compositions are completely white, and filled with social material that can only come from white-privilege (this is especially true of anarchism, which in reality is not a political movement at all, but a music-fashion scene for petty-bourgeois white children).

dutch master

3rd July 2010, 18:27

You know what's just about as annoying as the Tough Guy On The Internet? The Grizzled Veteran On The Internet. Anyone can claim anything here, and it doesn't actually mean much.

I feel free to respond however I feel like to morons talking about using "dads keyboard" while they have 4,000 posts and spend their days moderating forums, talking about "left communist" drivel.

Robocommie

3rd July 2010, 19:06

I feel free to respond however I feel like to morons talking about using "dads keyboard" while they have 4,000 posts and spend their days moderating forums, talking about "left communist" drivel.

You can certainly post however you like, but you know, I'm just letting you know that saying how much political work you've got under your belt doesn't mean anything, not here on the anonymous internet.

Os Cangaceiros

3rd July 2010, 19:08

lol, how ridiculous. Only the stupidest of liberals pretending to be radicals could even possibly think they could get away with interpreting my remarks as racist. The Left in America, especially the anarchist and Trotskyite pseudo-Left, is completely divorced from the oppressed nationalities in this country. Most group compositions are completely white, and filled with social material that can only come from white-privilege (this is especially true of anarchism, which in reality is not a political movement at all, but a music-fashion scene for petty-bourgeois white children).

Troll on, troll, troll on.

this is an invasion

3rd July 2010, 19:14

I've actually led successful communist revolutions.

By myself.

black magick hustla

3rd July 2010, 19:54

I feel free to respond however I feel like to morons talking about using "dads keyboard" while they have 4,000 posts and spend their days moderating forums, talking about "left communist" drivel.
ive been posting here for 6 years 4000 posts is almost nothing actually

i am leader of a southern mexican militiawe are tryin to create the aztec states of america with the southern us states we call ourselves jaguar communists

this is an invasion

3rd July 2010, 20:01

i bashed down the door of an oppressive strip club coz it degradez womenz!!!

oh no, wait...that was RAAN :blushing:

The people who did that also broke the windows.

I think the actual argument, though, was that strip clubs commodify sexuality and women. Although it does degrade women, too. But this argument has already been hashed out years ago, and all the arguments against are pretty much baseless.

Adi Shankara

3rd July 2010, 22:29

I've probably lead more protests, building occupations, strikes, etc, in the last year than you ever will.

obvious troll is beyond obvious--it's just plain ridiculous at this point.

If you have so led so many protests, so many building occupations...where are the glorious documentations of your supremely proletarian victories? :rolleyes:

bloodbeard

3rd July 2010, 22:53

I don't know, i think it really depends on what kind of violence.

People with fantasies of violence against oppressive regimes or against an oppressive group of people should not be discouraged. It is therapeutic for them.

It's actually better than the types of violence that's a normative in society: domestic violence or sexuality based violence, which women are usually the targets of, or alcohol/drug induced violence, which is just embarrassing and stupid, and criminal violence with intention to rob, kill, rape someone etc, which of course is wrong and immoral, etc.

I'd rather have kids fantasizing or thinking about what kind of weapon to use in a revolution, whether to use forklifts as fighting vehicles or whatnot. I don't really think they need to be discouraged but merely needs to taught to be more realistic about their goals...and to do more research. I'd rather both men and women fantasize about this kind of violence then about sexual violence against WOMEN.

bloodbeard

3rd July 2010, 22:58

Violence! Chaos! Death! Fire!

That's what my comrades and I are all about.

That's better than

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPc41f3EfmQ

4th July 2010, 03:57

And I think you're a ignorant petty bourgeois little white child
Can you actually back that up, or are you just a prick by default?

Hiratsuka

4th July 2010, 10:27

4th July 2010, 10:37

^ Quick, kill it with fire!

piet11111

4th July 2010, 14:01

The working class is so strong today that should it decide to overthrow capitalism it could do so with almost no violence.
Like the Russian revolution where only a handful of people died the real threat comes from the surrounding country's.
This is why internationalism is so important to spread the revolution and why for instance the situation in Greece is so important to the rest of Europe and the world.