Common arguments used by racial seperatists and neo-nazis (and how to counter)

[Adi Shankara]

What are some arguments utilized by neo-nazis, and what are ways to counter such arguments?

the only one on the top of my head right now is the immigrant one: racial seperatists claim this country (USA) is being invaded by Mexicans, and that they won't be assimilated...but Irish were the same way, and since then, no one ever doubts that an Irish-American is any less American than the next guy.

anyone have any more neo-nazi arguments (and common ways to refute them)?

[Robocommie]

Best counter-argument for Neo-Nazis and the fash in general: hot lead.

[GreenCommunism]

hot lead?

i find many of their argument to be legitimate if we lived about a thousand years ago. but we marxist don't care about raising the birthrate of our nation or that immigrants with a potential double loyalty enters a country(which rarely materialize, the worse that really happen is hesitation to support the wars especially when it is against the nation they used to be in) in fact, the latter is positive for us.

[maskerade]

I have a friend of mine who has very leftist ideas when it comes to economics, and is completely opposed to capitalism. Yet he is still a nationalist, because he claims the overthrowing of capitalism will be easier if it is done homogenously - as in, each ethnic group by itself. I've told him that the capitalists are the most internationalist class, especially in this day and age, and that a nationalist socialist revolutioin (not national socialist :rolleyes:) would fail because of capital's internationalism.

He refutes this by saying that ethnic conflict is "natural", goes on and on about in and out group theory, quotes some article called "diversity and it's discontents", etc. He thinks that class-consciousness is not possible because ethnic or national consciousness preceeds class-consciousness, and that people will always support their own ethnicity.

He isn't racist, just has a moderately fucked up view of things, I don't really know where it comes from. Any suggestions?

[BeerShaman]

They say: "i'm no racist, they are blacks!"
lolz joking!:D
And: "I love all people, except than turks, blacks, chinese and indians! Oh, I forgot to say Eskimos!":lol:
Or another so very clever argument is "But, they stink! They never bathe!":lol:

[BeerShaman]

I have a friend of mine who has very leftist ideas when it comes to economics, and is completely opposed to capitalism. Yet he is still a nationalist, because he claims the overthrowing of capitalism will be easier if it is done homogenously - as in, each ethnic group by itself. I've told him that the capitalists are the most internationalist class, especially in this day and age, and that a nationalist socialist revolutioin (not national socialist :rolleyes:) would fail because of capital's internationalism.

He refutes this by saying that ethnic conflict is "natural", goes on and on about in and out group theory, quotes some article called "diversity and it's discontents", etc. He thinks that class-consciousness is not possible because ethnic or national consciousness preceeds class-consciousness, and that people will always support their own ethnicity.

He isn't racist, just has a moderately fucked up view of things, I don't really know where it comes from. Any suggestions?
Tell him: "You know, your blood is not ethnically clear. (there are thousands of arguments to prove that, like asking him who else lived in his country before him)"
And also, tell him that no matter what is natural or not, what our problem is, is the bourgeoisie and stuff. Not foreign people. Ask him: "Who harms your country most? A black worker (if he's white)? Or a rich man oppressing all workers?"

[Robocommie]

hot lead?

Bullets.

I'm being mildly hyperbolic, but frankly there's a lot more important things for leftists to be doing than witnessing to the Nazis, especially because so many leftists are their potential victims. Revolution is the struggle against oppression, and in that struggle fascists are our opposite, their philosophy is very nearly the embodiment of everything we oppose.

They're human beings and so have every possibility to change their views. There are people here who were once fascists themselves. However, it's not our obligation in any way to give them the benefit of the doubt. They make life hell for people from the most marginalized groups, and will and HAVE killed progressive activists.

Medgar Evers, RIP.

[maskerade]

Tell him: "You know, your blood is not ethnically clear. (there are thousands of arguments to prove that, like asking him who else lived in his country before him)"
And also, tell him that no matter what is natural or not, what our problem is, is the bourgeoisie and stuff. Not foreign people. Ask him: "Who harms your country most? A black worker (if he's white)? Or a rich man oppressing all workers?"

Eh, Sweden is quite homogenous, and we've been living here for quite some time, since the end of the last ice age or so. I mean, I have Saami blood in me, and ethnic Swedes were quite terrible to them, but not many people have such lineage. He agrees that the bourgeoisie is the problem, but he sees ethnic conflict standing in the way of struggle against capitalism, and he simply "doesn't believe" that ethnic conflict is a minor issue - he always brings up the former Yugoslavia.

And his arguments against immigration are extremely right wing, but I still have faith that he isn't a racist, just disillusioned - he would say that a rich man might oppress his workers, but he wont rape, steal, murder like immigrants (his arguments, not mine). How does a leftist counter an argument saying that immigrants rape? I mean, the statistics are there, I just believe that in order to become a rapist there has to be some traumatic experience in one's childhood, which is more likely to occur in poor foreign countries or the shitty ghettos we send immigrants to, but he rejects this.

In many ways, he has exchanged race with culture, saying immigrant culture is incompatible with ours and that they should go.

The worst thing is that he is intelligent, and well read when it comes to backing his arguments up...

[BeerShaman]

Eh, Sweden is quite homogenous, and we've been living here for quite some time, since the end of the last ice age or so. I mean, I have Saami blood in me, and ethnic Swedes were quite terrible to them, but not many people have such lineage. He agrees that the bourgeoisie is the problem, but he sees ethnic conflict standing in the way of struggle against capitalism, and he simply "doesn't believe" that ethnic conflict is a minor issue - he always brings up the former Yugoslavia.

And his arguments against immigration are extremely right wing, but I still have faith that he isn't a racist, just disillusioned - he would say that a rich man might oppress his workers, but he wont rape, steal, murder like immigrants (his arguments, not mine). How does a leftist counter an argument saying that immigrants rape? I mean, the statistics are there, I just believe that in order to become a rapist there has to be some traumatic experience in one's childhood, which is more likely to occur in poor foreign countries or the shitty ghettos we send immigrants to, but he rejects this.

In many ways, he has exchanged race with culture, saying immigrant culture is incompatible with ours and that they should go.

The worst thing is that he is intelligent, and well read when it comes to backing his arguments up...
Eh, well you know a lot of politics, don't you?
Explain him that within a free society without capitalism etc these people would never leave their country to come an "pillage" his one.
Do you want help with this?

[GreenCommunism]

How does a leftist counter an argument saying that immigrants rape? I mean, the statistics are there, I just believe that
how about poverty? it also depends in what country you are talking about, here in canada immigrants are pretty nice when it comes to crime, it is populations who have genocides done against them who are usually of the most radically criminal elements. the native americans and the blacks in north america. also tell him that by saying immigrant and swedish culture is incompatible he is preventing foreigners from identifying as swedish or human thus when he rapes a swedish woman he is not raping a member of his family or so. poverty sustains mysogeny which often leads to rape.

[maskerade]

Eh, well you know a lot of politics, don't you?
Explain him that within a free society without capitalism etc these people would never leave their country to come an "pillage" his one.
Do you want help with this?

No, but we can't jump from capitalism to communism overnight, so I see this line of thinking as irrelevant. Immigration is going to happen, and this type of argumentation seems to just verify his claims about non Swedish cultures, that they should "stay in their place". I look forward to socialism and communism because of free immigration (amongst all the other things) and multiculturalism.


how about poverty? it also depends in what country you are talking about, here in canada immigrants are pretty nice when it comes to crime, it is populations who have genocides done against them who are usually of the most radically criminal elements. the native americans and the blacks in north america. also tell him that by saying immigrant and swedish culture is incompatible he is preventing foreigners from identifying as swedish or human thus when he rapes a swedish woman he is not raping a member of his family or so. poverty sustains mysogeny which often leads to rape.

Yea, that's what I was leading to, immigrants in Sweden are the poorest in the country. But he doesn't accept socio-economic explanations for immigration, though he does for pretty much everything else. I also asked him once if he would mind immigration if it caused no problems at all, and he said he still would - perhaps there is no point in arguing with him?

[GreenCommunism]

ask him if he would mind immigration if immigrants assimilated within a generation easily. also ask him why doesn't he think poverty is the major factor when it comes to crime? does he think they have propensity to crime? why so.

does he support immigration that isn't what some call open-borders? is his problem mainly with economic or cultural problems? or crime?

[The Red Next Door]

hot lead?

i find many of their argument to be legitimate if we lived about a thousand years ago. but we marxist don't care about raising the birthrate of our nation or that immigrants with a potential double loyalty enters a country(which rarely materialize, the worse that really happen is hesitation to support the wars especially when it is against the nation they used to be in) in fact, the latter is positive for us.

A bullet to the head.