The Inevitability of Communism

[Invincible Summer]

Not sure if this is the right place to put it... it's sort of philosophical I guess. Mods can move it to the appropriate forum.



Anyways, I was thinking about this passage this other day:


What the bourgeoisie, therefore, produces, above all, are its own grave-diggers. Its fall and the victory of the proletariat are equally inevitable.

To me, it seems that Marx suggests that communism is fated to happen, at some point in time.Now for those who and do not believe in a pre-determined/pre-destined path in life (I suppose then atheists/existentialists/nihilists although I'm not sure how nihilists feel about communism anyway), do the ideas contradict each other?

In other words, how can an atheist who does not believe in a pre-destined path at the same time acknowledge that communism will inevitably happen at one point in time or another?

[Blackscare]

As far as atheism goes, Marx wasn't talking about any mystical concepts such as destiny. That would be a major misreading of Marx. What he argued was that capitalism's inherent flaws could only lead eventually to it's collapse. He lays this out in detail as a scientific argument. It is possible to have the concept of determinism, in this case economic determinism, in certain contexts outside of religion.


I don't think Nihilists would care much one way or another.

They care about nussing.

http://cravencottagenewsround.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/nihilists.jpg

[BAM]

I interpret that as a rhetorical flourish. It's part of a propaganda document written to influence a revolutionary situation. I think, if I remember correctly, Marx also talks at a different point in the Manifesto of the "common ruin of the contending classes". That is, it could all end in disaster (eg., in nuclear war).

There is a somewhat related strand of Marxist economics on the theory of the breakdown of the capitalist system. At some point, capitalism will reach the extent of its ability to expand. But even here with an economist such as Henryk Grossman, whose book on the topic (http://www.marxists.org/archive/grossman/1929/breakdown/index.htm) is in my opinion one of the most important books on Marxist theory ever written, the stress is also on the "subjective" factors of class struggle, rather than the notion that communism will automatically or "inevitably" come about.

[Dean]

In other words, how can an atheist who does not believe in a pre-destined path at the same time acknowledge that communism will inevitably happen at one point in time or another?

Physics are "destined," so there is no inherent "non-atheism" in the Marxist theory. I think its rather ambitious, but the theory can really be applied more broadly, to show how the only stable social relations are egalitarian - or as Lenin said, "the meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism."

[mikelepore]

What makes me tend to think that a new system to replace capitalism is inevitable is because there is a simple criterion at bottom. With capitalism, people can acquire something only if, by coincidence, someone else can profit by providing that thing to them, and also chooses to provide it. With communism, production can be brought into existence simply because people say that they want it. It doesn't seem realistic to think that people will go, say, another 1,000 years following the strange rule that they can have medicine, shelter, shoes, entertainment, etc. only if it turns out that there is someone else who chooses to provide it to them on the condition of making a profit. It seems that people would eventually draw the conclusion that people wanting production to occur should be a sufficient reason to have production occur. That doesn't necessarily mean that the new system will have the democracy and freedom that we want it to have -- that may take additional effort -- but, one way or another, capitalism is going to be eliminated.

[bcbm]

nothing is inevitable.

[mcg]

Black Scare is right. This is how I like to think of it. For two hundred years communists have got their assess kicked. Sure we had some victories in Cuba, China, Russia, maybe Nicaragua, etc..., by and large though we've lost the military battles, propaganda battles etc... We're still fighting though. We're still a serious threat. No matter how many times the capitalists win they can't wipe us out, they can't suppress us forever. Every time they oppress us more they rally more people to our cause. Our struggle is inherent to the capitalist system, therefore the only way this war ends is with victory.

[Zanthorus]

I would probably agree more with the opening passage of the manifesto:


The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles.

Freeman and slave, patrician and plebeian, lord and serf, guild-master and journeyman, in a word, oppressor and oppressed, stood in constant opposition to one another, carried on an uninterrupted, now hidden, now open fight, a fight that each time ended, either in a revolutionary reconstitution of society at large, or in the common ruin of the contending classes.

[bcbm]

therefore the only way this war ends is with victory.

or in post-catastrophic capitalist social totalitarianism.