British nationalism on Revleft

[Wanted Man]

I'm sure everyone who reads discussions on the UK, Ireland, the Falklands, etc. knows that there is some degree of British nationalism on Revleft, or at least some kind of "working-class/left patriotism" or some kind of "British pride".

The one thing that I can't seem to figure out is why? American members tend to have an "anti-American" attitude, the German left is anti-national to the extreme, most other mainland European comrades simply don't care about "their country", but British comrades sometimes seem to have opinions like:

-The UK has some inherent "right" to some territory or the other (Ireland, Falklands).
-The UK today is "not as bad" as the British Empire of old or as bad as the USA today.
-The UK's presence in Afghanistan is somehow "not as bad" as other imperialist countries, or somehow not even imperialist at all.
-There is nothing fundamentally wrong with our country; we just have bad Tory or New Labour governments.
-Socialism is on the agenda when ("Old") Labour are in power.

Maybe I'm reading into things too much, but I'm wondering what other people think of this observation and possible explanations.

[Il Medico]

or as bad as the USA today.

Come on, its a shit paper, but I think the British government has it beat.

[ContrarianLemming]

The only nationality I've noticed on revleft as having a strongly nationalist slant would be Irish ( pro IRA Irish republicans) the some Americans, who can't seem to get rid of there patriotism. I don't blame either, Ireland was the most patriotic country i nthe western world (behind only the USA) for a lot of the 90's, the USA is still overflowing with patriotism.

I haven't noticed a lot of UK nationalism, but I don't usually venture out of learning.

[ed miliband]

-The UK has some inherent "right" to some territory or the other (Ireland, Falklands).
-The UK today is "not as bad" as the British Empire of old or as bad as the USA today.
-The UK's presence in Afghanistan is somehow "not as bad" as other imperialist countries, or somehow not even imperialist at all.
-There is nothing fundamentally wrong with our country; we just have bad Tory or New Labour governments.
-Socialism is on the agenda when ("Old") Labour are in power.



Users with this agenda tend to get restricted quite quickly. Look at Zoid and Red Lion.

[¿Que?]

Hear hear! That Malvinas thread was/is so completely fucked up! Although I'm not sure all the people who believed in British rights to the island were from the UK.

[Tyrlop]

The only nationality I've noticed on revleft as having a strongly nationalist slant would be Irish ( pro IRA Irish republicans) the some Americans, who can't seem to get rid of there patriotism. I don't blame either, Ireland was the most patriotic country i nthe western world (behind only the USA) for a lot of the 90's, the USA is still overflowing with patriotism.

true true, this also disgusts me alot, comrade.

[Dimentio]

I kinda like the British users here, at least those who have a genuine working class culture. Britain is one of those countries where the different social classes have different cultures and even different accents. Sweden's more homogenous in that aspect.

[Bilan]

I kinda like the British users here, at least those who have a genuine working class culture. Britain is one of those countries where the different social classes have different cultures and even different accents. Sweden's more homogenous in that aspect.

I imagine that might have a lot to do with social ostracism...and continuing social ostracism.

TBH, I haven't noticed the english nationalism on here ( I have noticed the Irish, with the IRA), but I'm probably not looking hard enough.


Also, who said the UK has an inherent right to the falklands?

[ed miliband]

Also, who said the UK has an inherent right to the falklands?

http://www.revleft.com/vb/falkland-islands-malvinas-t137648/index.html



Argentina taking control of the Falklands makes no sense at all. If the people there were Argentinian or at least Spanish-speaking, then it would be fine. But they're not, they're British. I understand that the whole reason that Britain owns the Falklands is because of our imperialist past, but the fact is that the island is British, and unless the island is suddenly repopulated with Argentinians, then it will stay under British control.

[Joesky]

How any self-respecting comrade can agree with any of those points is beyond me...

However, it has been the world cup recently and people can be sucked into this ultra-nationalism that gets perpetuated by the ruling classes around this time.

[Dimentio]

Ideally, the Falklands should have independence or autonomy.

But ideally, the world should also be unified into one federation.

[Bilan]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/falkland-islands-malvinas-t137648/index.html

*facepalm*

[RevolutionAdzy]

Ideally, the Falklands should have independence or autonomy.

But ideally, the world should also be unified into one federation.

How very, very true. However not being the issue I hand, I do agree.

British Nationalism is a lot less than American Nationalism, and most people I know (and myself) that live in the UK, agree that the UK fucks up a lot with itself and foreign policy, even though we are in the imperialist country itself.

[Bilan]

How very, very true. However not being the issue I hand, I do agree.

British Nationalism is a lot less than American Nationalism, and most people I know (and myself) that live in the UK, agree that the UK fucks up a lot with itself and foreign policy, even though we are in the imperialist country itself.

It depends who you're talking about. The British criticisms of it's foreign policy (by and large) seems to often be a kind of "oh, it's a waste of time anyway. the glory days are over, and everything's shit! Just look at the Underground!*"

If we're talking about communists, anarchists, marxists, etc. in my experience, American revos (now) don't tend to be more prone to nationalism than British ones.
The biggest difference seems to be that British communists are less keen on fetishising people like Hoxha et al, and are more keen on old school class politics; whilst American communists are prone to fetishising people like Hoxha or Mao, and American anarchists seem keen on individualism.
Or in bcbm's case, alcoholism.
Which is why we love him very much.

There doesn't seem to be a difference in prone-ness to nationalism. The British know the days of the Empire where the sun never sets are long gone, and the American's aren't too proud of their ghastly, brutal empire. So one group doesn't care, and the other is embarrassed about theirs.

All in all, this post was useless.

* Which, by the way, is splendid, and you have nothing to complain about.

[Bilan]

I would like to add that Australian nationalism is obviously the funniest kind, as it's stupid, and full of hollow slogans. Much more hollow than everyone else's.

[Zanthorus]

I don't see what the big deal about the Falkland islands is besides some people on Revleft having to come to the rescue whenever they think they can see national oppression.

I agree that the four points are stupid, but I've never really seen anyone like that besides maybe Red Lion so...

[Crimson Commissar]

I'm guessing this thread is somewhat related to my posts, so I'll reply

1. Ireland is debatable, I agree. But the Falklands are populated by people of British descent, not Argentinian or Spanish, and so they should stay under British control as long as the people are happy with it.
2. You can't honestly compare the British Empire to modern Britain. The UK today is just the sidekick of the real imperialist power, the USA.
3. I never said it wasn't as bad, I'm just saying that Britain did not initiate it.
4. Oh, there are LOTS of things fundamentally wrong with this country. Just because I want Britain to stay united rather than be divided into independent states who are apparently "oppressed by the evil English imperialists", doesn't mean I want the CURRENT British union to remain in place.
5. Fuck NO. Labour has never been Socialist, they've always been in support of Capitalism and the imperialistic British monarchy.

[Raúl Duke]

The lingering amount of nationalism is on an individual basis mostly.

As a group, the Americans are mixed in the sense that you have some U.S posters who while they recognize the situation is pretty bad (with all the tea party, etc) yet have cool-heads about it while there are those who think this "country is FUBAR-ed, fuck America, and there's no hope and maybe 3rd worldism is the answer," this last perspective being defeatist though. Although you will find that among the Americans there are a lot of people who at some level(s) "like" America and/or a particular region or state; probably to a degree more than some other posters.

Among the Irish (and some Americans), you would see a lot of IRA/PIRA/whatever supporters and such which does tend to be quite a bit nationalistic (or national-liberationist, if they prefer that term) yet at the same time you have some Irish anarchists who seem to be very rejecting towards the IRA although these seem to be the minority view.

The British posters seem pretty cool headed and non-nonchalant about the whole issue in general and whenever they bring it up (or more as, whenever they bring up regionalism) they tend to be playful and joking around about it. The Dutch don't talk about it much in my opinion and when they do mention some failings in the netherlands they blame it on specific groups (Nazis, Vlaam Book) or specific politicians (that racist politician that I forgot his name) instead of saying statements like "All the Dutch people are fucked and they're all right-wing idiots" which is different from the Americans who do have their share of posters who are quick to generalize the whole U.S. population are racist white right-wing lunatics.

Obviously, this thread is a childish reply over the falklands thread yet really, I don't see why some people think the falklands should be Argentinian, independent, or etc if the people on the island say they want to stay with the UK on the basis of some erroneous (erroneous because the people in the island see themselves as British nationals, not as a separate nation and probably do not view themselves as oppressed) and simplistic "national liberationist" analysis.

[gorillafuck]

I'm guessing this thread is somewhat related to my posts, so I'll reply

1. Ireland is debatable, I agree. But the Falklands are populated by people of British descent, not Argentinian or Spanish, and so they should stay under British control as long as the people are happy with it.
Even if that means engaging in imperialist war like Thatcher did?


3. I never said it wasn't as bad, I'm just saying that Britain did not initiate it.
Britain didn't initiate the invasion of Afghanistan but they were all too happy to go along with it.

[Crimson Commissar]

Even if that means engaging in imperialist war like Thatcher did?
Argentina was the one who started the Falklands war. You can't blame Britain for trying to defend British Falklanders from the Argentine nationalists


Britain didn't initiate the invasion of Afghanistan but they were all too happy to go along with it.
I realise that, but when do you ever see Britain starting imperialistic wars against random Middle-Eastern countries? All we ever do is follow the US around like a sheep, we never start anything ourselves.

[Sam_b]

A 'Marxist-Leninist' playing down British imperialism in the Middle East? Well I never.

[Nolan]

A 'Marxist-Leninist' playing down British imperialism in the Middle East? Well I never.

Oh don't even fucking go there, trot. Remember Haiti?

[Lyev]

Urm well I'm from Britain, but I fucking hate Britain, with it's fucking submission to the monarchy, apathetic people, shit weather and praising the empire. The Falklands are just a bit of dirt floating in the ocean, as is Britain, as is Argentina, South America and every other country.

[Crimson Commissar]

A 'Marxist-Leninist' playing down British imperialism in the Middle East? Well I never.
I'm not "playing it down", I'm just saying it ain't nearly as bad as what the US has done.

[Lyev]

I'm not "playing it down", I'm just saying it ain't nearly as bad as what the US has done.Fuck you. Why is it any worse? Britain has already been there two or three before. Blair blindly followed Bush into the Iraq and Afghanistan war, there's has at least been some 10,000 civilians killed, and that's a modest estimate for the Afghan war, and I constantly hear cases where British soldiers have abused civilians, or raped women or beat up children or whatever. The USA are aggressively fighting in the middle east to defend the natural resources like petroleum and oil. There's a $2 bil. 1,275 km-long, 1.5-meter-wide natural-gas pipeline going through the Afghan cities of Herat and Kandahar, crossing into Pakistan near Quetta. there's no such thing as a "humanitarian" invasion, when the native population is sandwiched between the Taleban and NATO imperialists. Neither are the UK (or US) there to help the indigenous Afghani population. The puppet government being put in place is fully supported by the UK and USA, whilst being horribly corrupt and full of drug-lords. The invasion is fully supported by both countries mentioned, and both UK and USA soldiers have killed and do kill civilians. How are the UK any worse in Afghanistan?

[Sam_b]

Oh don't even fucking go there, trot. Remember Haiti?

Are you talking about that nonsense article that wasn't rom my tendency, never endorsed by my tendency.....


I'm not "playing it down", I'm just saying it ain't nearly as bad as what the US has done

Even if that was the case, which it isn't, why would that make it any different?

ITS OK GUYS WE ARE BAD BUT THEY ARE WORSE

[Sugar Hill Kevis]

Criticisms of the IRA do not tantamount to the support of the British state.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I wouldn't say it is as noticeable as the first post suggests but I would say I have seen it. I really hate England and Britain, especially at world cup time. The other day a friend of my dads girlfriend was wearing a Brazil top and she works as a nanny for a family so she was picking up the baby from a nursery and this girl comes up to her starts swearing at her for wearing a Brazil top. I fucking hate nationalism and patriotism, any sort of allegiance people see to a piece of land is negative to the class struggle.

[Subcomandante Marcos.]

that supposed marxist leninist bumbing england is a knob.

How is Ireland debatable, your a fucking disgrace, you are the same old, i am a marxist, but defend Britain, your an oxymoron in yourself, a leninist, who supports the falklands war.

AINT NO WAR BUT CLASS WAR.

[gorillafuck]

Argentina was the one who started the Falklands war. You can't blame Britain for trying to defend British Falklanders from the Argentine nationalists
Why would a socialist, an internationalist, pick a side in a war between a country ruled by fascists and a country ruled by ultraconservatives?


I realise that, but when do you ever see Britain starting imperialistic wars against random Middle-Eastern countries? All we ever do is follow the US around like a sheep, we never start anything ourselves.
Well, Britain does maintain imperial rule in Northern Ireland....

Also, just because the US has larger control over the world doesn't excuse anything that Britain does.

[HEAD ICE]

Police are going around to all pubs and clubs saying we cant wear our England tops for the football and we have to take our england flags down, as it is offending people that aint from England! Now im NOT racist BUT this is taking the piss!! This is England, we need to make a stand!! Would you remove your turban, if it... offended me?? we need to stick together, repost this as your status!!

[9]

I have noticed it somewhat with both British (mostly English) and American posters. I noticed in particular in one thread recently about the way Americans are perceived by Europeans (or something along those lines), where I wouldn't necessarily say it was nationalism, but it did seem that some Americans had a particular tendency to defend "America's image" or "culture" or something, whereas one or two British posters seemed to be doing the same for Britain.
I notice the same whenever the subject of antifascism and WWII comes up.
I remember in particular a discussion on here a while back about wearing some badge or flower or something (a poppy? idk) to commemorate the British role in WWII, with some posters here in favor of wearing it.

I haven't read the Malvinas thread yet.

[Martin Blank]

There is a difference between opposing a state, social system and mode of production, on the one hand, and just slagging off the people living in a country as "stupid", "backward" or "reactionary". I've noticed there is a tendency to cross that line a lot, especially when it comes to countries that evoke a visceral anger, like the U.S.

[Crimson Commissar]

that supposed marxist leninist bumbing england is a knob.

How is Ireland debatable, your a fucking disgrace, you are the same old, i am a marxist, but defend Britain, your an oxymoron in yourself, a leninist, who supports the falklands war.

AINT NO WAR BUT CLASS WAR.
The fuck? I said Ireland was debatable because honestly, Irish people tend to have some sort of prejudice against any sort of united British state. I would PREFER to have a Socialist, British nation that includes Ireland and pays attention to the needs of workers all across Britain, but of course I won't force it upon people if they would prefer to be independent. And I NEVER said I supported the Falklands war, I just want the Falklands to remain under British control, as long as the people there agree to it. And they DO agree to it, so why should I blindly support some ridiculous Argentine nationalists who are completely disregarding what the people of the Falklands want?


Why would a socialist, an internationalist, pick a side in a war between a country ruled by fascists and a country ruled by ultraconservatives?
I'm not "picking sides", but when one side is somewhat "defending" the people from imperialism, then of course it makes them the lesser of two evils in a way. And before someone takes this out of context, NO, I do NOT support conservatives in any way.



Well, Britain does maintain imperial rule in Northern Ireland....
I don't know a lot about what the situation there is now, but the whole reason Northern Ireland stayed under British control was because they WANTED to be part of Britain. The only imperialists here are Irish nationalists who want to force NI to become part of Ireland.


Also, just because the US has larger control over the world doesn't excuse anything that Britain does.
I know, but again, we are the lesser of two evils in this matter. I seriously doubt the British government has any imperialist interests in the world, everyone seems to recognise the British Empire is dead and will stay dead, the only imperialism I've noticed from the British state is going along with whatever the US asks us to do.

[Jazzratt]

Police are going around to all pubs and clubs saying we cant wear our England tops for the football and we have to take our england flags down, as it is offending people that aint from England! Now im NOT racist BUT this is taking the piss!! This is England, we need to make a stand!! Would you remove your turban, if it... offended me?? we need to stick together, repost this as your status!!
Total, total hero.

[Glenn Beck]

I'm sure everyone who reads discussions on the UK, Ireland, the Falklands, etc. knows that there is some degree of British nationalism on Revleft, or at least some kind of "working-class/left patriotism" or some kind of "British pride".

The one thing that I can't seem to figure out is why? American members tend to have an "anti-American" attitude, the German left is anti-national to the extreme, most other mainland European comrades simply don't care about "their country", but British comrades sometimes seem to have opinions like:

-The UK has some inherent "right" to some territory or the other (Ireland, Falklands).
-The UK today is "not as bad" as the British Empire of old or as bad as the USA today.
-The UK's presence in Afghanistan is somehow "not as bad" as other imperialist countries, or somehow not even imperialist at all.
-There is nothing fundamentally wrong with our country; we just have bad Tory or New Labour governments.
-Socialism is on the agenda when ("Old") Labour are in power.

Maybe I'm reading into things too much, but I'm wondering what other people think of this observation and possible explanations.

I hear the whole "hey the British Empire wasn't that bad and besides the Spanish/French/Yanks/Mamelukes/Whatever were way, way worse" bullshit all the time from British people, even on here. I guess the school system over there really hammers that one in.

Whatever, Britain's just some crappy little island nation with ugly scenery and bad food.

[ed miliband]

Whatever, Britain's just some crappy little island nation with ugly scenery and bad food.

Nah.

It may be a crappy little island nation but there is some beautiful scenery and great food.

[Il Medico]

I notice the same whenever the subject of antifascism and WWII comes up.
I remember in particular a discussion on here a while back about wearing some badge or flower or something (a poppy? idk) to commemorate the British role in WWII, with some posters here in favor of wearing it.

I remember it too. Some sort of flower or what not. Thought it was to honor those who died or something though.

[Devrim]

Whatever, Britain's just some crappy little island nation with ugly scenery and bad food.

London is the best place to eat out in the world.

Devrim

[ContrarianLemming]

Criticisms of the IRA do not tantamount to the support of the British state.

Thank you

[9]

Thought it was to honor those who died or something though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Royal_British_Legion#Poppy_Appeal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Royal_British_Legion#Poppy_Appeal)

[Sasha]

the British (users) do seem to have an bit of an "empire, empire, we where just messing around in the sun a bit having an swell old time and anyway thats all so long ago my dear chap lets just not talk about it" thing going on.
but i think its more the english disorder for understatement and their infiriority complex than that they seriously are nationalist.

[gorillafuck]

I'm not "picking sides", but when one side is somewhat "defending" the people from imperialism, then of course it makes them the lesser of two evils in a way. And before someone takes this out of context, NO, I do NOT support conservatives in any way.
Yeah, and the United States was defending Kuwait from imperialism, right?:rolleyes:


I don't know a lot about what the situation there is now, but the whole reason Northern Ireland stayed under British control was because they WANTED to be part of Britain. The only imperialists here are Irish nationalists who want to force NI to become part of Ireland.
When are you referring to?


I know, but again, we are the lesser of two evils in this matter. I seriously doubt the British government has any imperialist interests in the world, everyone seems to recognise the British Empire is dead and will stay dead, the only imperialism I've noticed from the British state is going along with whatever the US asks us to do.
You act as if Britain doesn't want to get involved but gets dragged into it because the US wants them to. Britain has it's interests which it pursues.

If someone starts to gang rape someone are the people who joined in but did not start it lesser evils?

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I would like to see some examples of british users apologising for the empire because I haven't seen it.

[Crimson Commissar]

I would like to see some examples of british users apologising for the empire because I haven't seen it.
Uhm, why exactly do I have to "apologise" for the actions of an empire I had nothing to do with?

[Sam_b]

He's not asking you to.

[Jazzratt]

Uhm, why exactly do I have to "apologise" for the actions of an empire I had nothing to do with? I don't think he's asking you to apologise as in say "sorry" but is instead wondering where people who have apologised, as in defended or justified, the empire.

[No pasarán]

The fuck? I said Ireland was debatable because honestly, Irish people tend to have some sort of prejudice against any sort of united British state. I would PREFER to have a Socialist, British nation that includes Ireland and pays attention to the needs of workers all across Britain, but of course I won't force it upon people if they would prefer to be independent. And I NEVER said I supported the Falklands war, I just want the Falklands to remain under British control, as long as the people there agree to it. And they DO agree to it, so why should I blindly support some ridiculous Argentine nationalists who are completely disregarding what the people of the Falklands want?.

Er... considering the way the british, or rather their monarchy and goverment treated the irish people do you not think Irish people have a right to not be part of the british union. There are 2 reasons why the British goverment continues to support the people of the falklands- one because it put them there and two, it has some very valuable mineral resources within the vicinity. The second reason probably being the main reason the argentinians want it back


I don't know a lot about what the situation there is now, but the whole reason Northern Ireland stayed under British control was because they WANTED to be part of Britain. The only imperialists here are Irish nationalists who want to force NI to become part of Ireland..

Only part of the community of ulster wanted to remain as part of the union. Unionists. And some of them want a return to complete self goverment (ulster nationalisim). Although for better or worse the republican community has gradualy gained some more rights, they are still second class citizens to some extent. The British goverment and there unionist allies were pretty ruthless about crushing any resitance peaceful or otherwise and still blatantly favour the unionist community. They also (and smaller groups of sectarian bigots in the republican community) like to ignore the fact that there has been constant (on varying levels- from very large to small ammounts of) solidarity between people in the republican and unionist communites. Of course the goverment of the republic is illegitimate and sectarian too. It, as nearly every other goverment in the world needs to be replaced untill it is only a geographical goverment, not a nationalist one.

You come across as being a british nationalist. A socialist, not in any way a fascist, but a nationalist all the same.

[Crimson Commissar]

Er... considering the way the british, or rather their monarchy and goverment treated the irish people do you not think Irish people have a right to not be part of the british union. There are 2 reasons why the British goverment continues to support the people of the falklands- one because it put them there and two, it has some very valuable mineral resources within the vicinity. The second reason probably being the main reason the argentinians want it back



Only part of the community of ulster wanted to remain as part of the union. Unionists. And some of them want a return to complete self goverment (ulster nationalisim). Although for better or worse the republican community has gradualy gained some more rights, they are still second class citizens to some extent. The British goverment and there unionist allies were pretty ruthless about crushing any resitance peaceful or otherwise and still blatantly favour the unionist community. They also (and smaller groups of sectarian bigots in the republican community) like to ignore the fact that there has been constant (on varying levels- from very large to small ammounts of) solidarity between people in the republican and unionist communites. Of course the goverment of the republic is illegitimate and sectarian too. It, as nearly every other goverment in the world needs to be replaced untill it is only a geographical goverment, not a nationalist one.

You come across as being a british nationalist. A socialist, not in any way a fascist, but a nationalist all the same.
I'm definitely not in support of the current British government, especially not the monarchy. And, fuck, after all this debate I'm actually starting to drop my "nationalistic" view on Ireland..

[Glenn Beck]

London is the best place to eat out in the world.

Devrim

Yeah, other people's food

[Devrim]

Yeah, other people's food

Yes, but apart from traditional breakfast, which is good, nobody eats 'English food' today. London is a great place to eat.

Devrim

[No pasarán]

I'm definitely not in support of the current British government, especially not the monarchy. And, fuck, after all this debate I'm actually starting to drop my "nationalistic" view on Ireland..

I didn't think you were in support of the British goverment or monarchy, but that you seemed to have an overly patriotic view of Britain which comes across as a fairly nationalistic. Its a product of their up bringing in many people. I still struggle to define my views on being Irish, but I guess thats something I have to continue to work out. I support irish national liberation, but only as a conduit or a part of world wide liberation. Anyways I wasn't accusing you of being xenophobic or rascist- just felt you were towing the line fed to you by the goverment on Ireland.

[No pasarán]

Yes, but apart from traditional breakfast, which is good, nobody eats 'English food' today. London is a great place to eat.

Devrim

You can't really go wrong with a fry up can you?

[ed miliband]

Yes, but apart from traditional breakfast, which is good, nobody eats 'English food' today. London is a great place to eat.

Devrim

I still eat 'English food' if you count fish 'n' chips, pies, kippers, etc. as such.

[No pasarán]

I love the chipper, friday night grease to soak up the booze. But not enough shops doing 'proper' chips now in london (big thick ones), its all skinny fuckin 'frys'.

[ed miliband]

Yeah, fuckloads of fried chicken shops have opened up near me where chippies used to be and they only sell french fries, but fried chicken and chips tastes fine enough after a night out.

[The Grey Blur]

Couple of points:

The people of the Malvinas have the right to self-determination. If they wish to remain British then so be it. With regards to the context of the Falklands War on one side you had an Argentinian dictatorship and on the other Thatcherite Britain. I don't see one as worse or better than the other, and I don't think Socialists should choose 'better' Imperialisms in this context. The group who's legacy I respect and agree with most of their analysis, Militant, also held the above views and have repeatedly been slandered as being pro-Imperialism because of that. I don't know if that's what you're referring to your with your original post. We've been over this plenty of times and of course it's complete rubbish just like Devrim's slanders about Militant touting on poll tax rioters, the PUP rubbish in NI, etc. It's at least heartening that the legacy of Militant is still so strong on the left that is constantly attacked by these hacks then it must have been doing something right. If being pro-worker now means supporting fascist dictatorships then I give up. The Malvinas should be part of a voluntary unified Socialist federation of Latin America and the rest of the world, and I reject the dichotomy of either/or the bourgeois Argentinian or British states.

Secondly, Old Labour certainly involved Socialism being on the agenda. Again, I don't really want to get into it, all the evidence is there and plain as day if you want to talk to people, do the reading etc. In the end it comes down to a completely different orientation. I orientate towards the working-class as a Marxist should, maybe you believe building your anarchist commune or stalinist party is the way forward and good luck to you but if the working-class are with Labour that's where I'll work. You know about the clause that was pushed through at Labour Party conference that aimed for the nationalisation of all major industries if elected? That their vote and party apparatus in working-class areas in London, Birmingham, Scotland actually improved at the last-election despite the neo-liberal agenda of the Blair and Brownites? Especially in the case of solid left wingers like John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn (people who talk about socialism, worker's control, etc) who saw really impressive swings in their constituencies in the national context of New Labour attacks on housing, jobs, the privatization agenda, the war, etcetc. There are plenty of socialists in the Labour Party and plenty outside in the UK. The debate for the serious left is now whether to stick with Respect, TUSC, etc or work within Labour and it's not one I come down on either side of but I'm sorry, that's the situation. As much as you hope for the revision of the Communist Party to its Stalinist heyday I'm afraid it's gone, come join the debate and the working-class though if you fancy it.

So that's the situation in Britain. A few misconceptions on your part but that's understandable. I haven't been posting lately but yeah this Dracoid character looks a bit mental. Of course Ireland has the right to self-determination, and there is no more an anti-English sentiment there than in any other former and latter-day colony. Actually I find his rants fairly offensive, I'm surprised he hasn't been pulled earlier. I can see where you're coming from as there is an implicit nationalism in what he writes. Though he rejects Labour and is a Stalinist nutjob so I wash my hands of all responsibility...he's one of yours.

[ed miliband]

Couple of points:


Secondly, Old Labour certainly involved Socialism being on the agenda. Again, I don't really want to get into it, all the evidence is there and plain as day if you want to talk to people, do the reading etc. In the end it comes down to a completely different orientation. I orientate towards the working-class as a Marxist should, maybe you believe building your anarchist commune or stalinist party is the way forward and good luck to you but if the working-class are with Labour that's where I'll work. You know about the clause that was pushed through at Labour Party conference that aimed for the nationalisation of all major industries if elected? That their vote and party apparatus in working-class areas in London, Birmingham, Scotland actually improved at the last-election despite the neo-liberal agenda of the Blair and Brownites? Especially in the case of solid left wingers like John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn (people who talk about socialism, worker's control, etc) who saw really impressive swings in their constituencies in the national context of New Labour attacks on housing, jobs, the privatization agenda, the war, etcetc. There are plenty of socialists in the Labour Party and plenty outside in the UK. The debate for the serious left is now whether to stick with Respect, TUSC, etc or work within Labour and it's not one I come down on either side of but I'm sorry, that's the situation. As much as you hope for the revision of the Communist Party to its Stalinist heyday I'm afraid it's gone, come join the debate and the working-class though if you fancy it.



Thanks for inviting us to "come join the debate", but I seem to remember you debating very little when people were criticising the Labour Party on the politics board. You wrote us off as Stalinists and ultra-leftists and then left. It's a trend I've noticed with many Labourites, old and new: if people don't agree with you, accuse them of being either right-wing or too left-wing and then don't engage in the debate at all.

[Crimson Commissar]

If Labour were ever Socialist, surely they would have abolished capitalism and the monarchy long ago? Nationalising a few industries and spewing mindless propaganda about the working class doesn't make Labour a socialist party. They were Social Democratic, but NEVER Socialist.

[Zanthorus]

maybe you believe building your anarchist commune or stalinist party

Oh sure, everyone who disagrees with you is a lifestylist anarchist or a gothic stalin worshipper :rolleyes:

[ed miliband]

If Labour were ever Socialist, surely they would have abolished capitalism and the monarchy long ago? Nationalising a few industries and spewing mindless propaganda about the working class doesn't make Labour a socialist party. They were Social Democratic, but NEVER Socialist.

Mate, it's utmost important we nationalise the British sock industry, everything else can go to hell.

[Hiratsuka]

We're talking about nationalism as opposed to patriotism, right? I realize I'm venturing into the ever-inconsistent world of semantics, but I don't think there's anything wrong with delighting in one's culture, whether that person is British, American, Canadian, German, or whatever else.

A lot of American users here seem to think their culture and anything associated with "Amerikkka" is absolute shit. In fact, I think this image of the United States as a world tantamount to the worst place in hell is disappointing. American workers are brazenly regarded by a lot of users here as "stupid" slobs who have no value outside of consumption. I'd really like to invite some European chaps over to show them that it's not like that.

I don't have a problem with anyone being defensive about their culture, if they're willing to acknowledge the presence of other cultures. I just wish more users wouldn't disparagingly shit on other people (like witch doctor's posts about Native Americans)

[A.J.]

-The UK has some inherent "right" to some territory or the other (Ireland, Falklands).
-The UK today is "not as bad" as the British Empire of old or as bad as the USA today.
-The UK's presence in Afghanistan is somehow "not as bad" as other imperialist countries, or somehow not even imperialist at all.
-There is nothing fundamentally wrong with our country; we just have bad Tory or New Labour governments.
-Socialism is on the agenda when ("Old") Labour are in power.


^Surely not claims you can level at yours truly.

If I'm nothing else I'm a consistent opponent of British imperialism. Perhaps that's easier for me, however, given the fact I'm neither English nor a hun therefore wouldn't be subjected to the same social stigma expressing such opposition.

[Guerrilla22]

How any self-respecting comrade can agree with any of those points is beyond me...

However, it has been the world cup recently and people can be sucked into this ultra-nationalism that gets perpetuated by the ruling classes around this time.

Well you see the US has control of Hawaii and France of Guiana so that makes it ok, apparently. :blink:

[No pasarán]

Yeah, fuckloads of fried chicken shops have opened up near me where chippies used to be and they only sell french fries, but fried chicken and chips tastes fine enough after a night out.

I don't eat meat, so I can't really comment on the combination.. though I did end up runnin down the camden high st, throwing chicken at a mate of mine after our orders got mixed.

When I was living in Hackney there was a great chipper that did some deadly chips and their fallfel was grand too so I was also happy enough.

Ah the joys of chit chat and going off topic (though we are talking about 'british food')....

[9]

We're talking about nationalism as opposed to patriotism, right?I've never understood why people bother trying to make this distinction - they are pretty obviously synonymous.



A lot of American users here seem to think their culture and anything associated with "Amerikkka" is absolute shit. In fact, I think this image of the United States as a world tantamount to the worst place in hell is disappointing.Thinking "American culture" is shit is not the same thing as thinking the US = "the worst place in hell". For example, I would certainly rather live here than somewhere with a lower standard of living. Granted I would much rather live somewhere with a higher standard of living than here.


American workers are brazenly regarded by a lot of users here as "stupid" slobs who have no value outside of consumption.You are right, and I notice this a lot. Incidentally, though, most of the time when I notice it, it is coming from Americans. I think it has much more to do with general disdain for workers, and very little to do with "American culture", which is shit btw.

[meow]

britain is great because they invented all those great sports like football and cricket. and rugby. and they invented that langugage which everyone uses. and they invented the train. and other such stuff. and they invented marx to! without britain we wouldnt have marx!

therefore britain is the best place in the world.

except america of course.

[Tyrlop]

allways hated fucking england.

[Lyev]

britain is great because they invented all those great sports like football and cricket. and rugby. and they invented that langugage which everyone uses. and they invented the train. and other such stuff. and they invented marx to! without britain we wouldnt have marx!

therefore britain is the best place in the world.

except america of course.Trier in Germany invented Marx (?), you might be joking though. Britain is shit.

[Blake's Baby]

allways hated fucking england.

Don't fuck it then?

England is a myth. A state of mind (quite literally). I declared myself French about 15 years ago (they've got a republic, they can't logically stop you). I am no longer owned by the Queen. Of course, I haven't told her, she's an old woman and the shock might kill her.

[meow]

Trier in Germany invented Marx (?), you might be joking though. Britain is shit.
i was thinking more that marx spent all his time in that library in london. you know, in britain. if he had have stayed in germany, they would have killed him or something. therefore, it is fair to say that britain invented marxism. ok not marx, but marxism at least. the history of free expression and liberalism is what made marxism possible. yay britain!

(and yes of course im not serious fuck britain)

[Jazzratt]

God save our gracious queen.

[The Feral Underclass]

God Save Her Indeed!

Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the waves! BRITAIN NEVER, NEVER, NEVER SHALLLLL BEEEE SLLAAAAVVEEEESS!!!

[Blake's Baby]

Isn't it "God save the Queen, and her fascist regime"?

[JacobVardy]

Isn't it "God save the Queen, and her fascist regime"?
she aint no human being

[Zanthorus]

she aint no human being

There is no future in England's dreaming :D

[RedAnarchist]

British nationalism is the most idiotic concept ever dreamt up. You could easily divide "Britain" up into many different countries, our food is bland and nowhere near as popular as Indian/Chinese/Italian food is, our language is pretty much a mosaic of other languages, our anthem is a dirge celebrating a head of state that has no relevance to modern society, many sports were codified and developed/invented here yet we do very badly at them most of the time, our media are a bunch of hateful, narrow-minded vultures who seem to have no perception of reality and half the land is still owned by rich people as if it were 1410 and not 2010.

The country still have territories that should have been given back to other countries or given independence a long time ago, and Britain has even forced the people of Diego Garcia off of their own island so that a UK/US base could be built there. Along with other countries, Britain drew nonsensical lines all over maps of Africa and the Middle East, which still causes problems today and we've been dragged into war after war because the government still think that the "special relationship" means something.

[Il Medico]

she's an old woman and the shock might kill her.
Then why haven't you told her?

[Glenn Beck]

You are right, and I notice this a lot. Incidentally, though, most of the time when I notice it, it is coming from Americans. I think it has much more to do with general disdain for workers, and very little to do with "American culture", which is shit btw.

Man leftists hate workers so fucking much. I can't stand those bastards. So elitist :mad:

[Blake's Baby]

Because to be honest I have no quarrel with Frau Battenburg-Hohenzollern-von-Hesse (or whatever her real name is). She's a bewildered refugee from a Ruritanian romance, whose husband is an appaling arse and whose children are... well, the sort of children only a mother could love... actually you're right, death would be kinder, wouldn't it?

[Sam_b]

nationalism is the most idiotic concept ever dreamt up

Fixed.


The country still have territories that should have been given back to other countries

How would this materially change anything? (Aside from arguments as seen in Lenin eg Nations Right to Self Determination, is this just swapping one bankrupt concept of nationalism for another?)

[RedAnarchist]

How would this materially change anything? (Aside from arguments as seen in Lenin eg Nations Right to Self Determination, is this just swapping one bankrupt concept of nationalism for another?)

It would change nothing, but Britain certainly has no right to that land (and no country has right to any land anywhere).

[Vanguard1917]

Yes, but apart from traditional breakfast, which is good, nobody eats 'English food' today. London is a great place to eat.

Devrim

Especially Harringay and Dalston, where your compatriots' restaurants serve up some of the most satisfying food i've ever eaten.

-----------------

On nationalism within the British left, this was traditionally the product of leftwing politics being dominated by the (often intertwined) political ideologies of left Labourism and Official Communism -- both reformist political phenomena which placed immense faith in the institutions of the British state to bring about change.

[9]

Man leftists hate workers so fucking much. I can't stand those bastards. So elitist :mad:

I'm not making a blanket statement about everyone who posts here, and I never referred to them as "leftists" - I am not a left communist.
But you can't really deny that this sort of attitude (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1793336&postcount=3) is kind of (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1790736&postcount=21) prevalent here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1788176&postcount=5).

[Os Cangaceiros]

I am not a left communist.

What do you characterize yourself as, out of curiousity?

[Devrim]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif[/IMG] (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1793620#post1793620)] Man leftists hate workers so fucking much. I can't stand those bastards. So elitist :mad:I'm not making a blanket statement about everyone who posts here, and I never referred to them as "leftists" - I am not a left communist.
But you can't really deny that this sort of attitude (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1793336&postcount=3) is kind of (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1790736&postcount=21) prevalent here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1788176&postcount=5).

I think that in some places the left really does resent if not hate, the working class. I really think the Turkish left does.

Devrim

[Revy]

-The UK has some inherent "right" to some territory or the other (Ireland, Falklands).

I don't think Northern Ireland belongs to Britain, but the Falklands is a different issue. Argentina claimed it without historical basis, their only argument was its proximity, but Bermuda is also close to the US and a British territory, that does not mean the US has the right to claim it. I would argue the people of Bermuda and the Falklands have a right to decide whether or not they want to be independent of Britain or belonging to any other country. The pro-annexation argument gets worse when you consider that there are very few Argentines on the islands.

I'm not British, but I don't buy that bullshit. When did being "anti-imperialist" become synonymous with irredentism? Was the US right to conquer Spain's imperial possessions (Puerto Rico, Cuba, Guam, Philippines ) in the Spanish-American War? Obviously not. Argentina is a country itself founded on colonialism and stolen indigenous land.

[No pasarán]

Especially Harringay and Dalston, where your compatriots' restaurants serve up some of the most satisfying food i've ever eaten.


Best fry up I've ever had is in the amazingly titled 'Workman's Cafe' in Archway (just down from the station). Great food (even for a stinking hippy veggie like me), great coffee, great staff.

[9]

What do you characterize yourself as, out of curiousity?

the super-extraordinarily far, far, far, farthest, furthest, far left baby-toenail of capital <3
I am somewhat close to the 'Landyites' (i.e. LRP-COFI), but have been moving sharply to their left since around the end of last year, and have come to reject many of their views as p. much bullshit. I do think that the correctness of left communist positions on many fundamental political questions has been born out by history, certainly moreso than any other tendency. And even so, I would rather associate myself with the 'Landyites', who have an approach to the present, and who speak in a language people are familiar with, and who understand the development of - and aren't afraid to participate in - the daily battles and partial struggles of working class people, even though it means running the risk of being 'tainted' with 'unsavory' influences. But this is a really random thing to be discussing in a chitchat thread on British nationalism lol

[Devrim]

And even so, I would rather associate myself with the 'Landyites', who have an approach to the present, and who speak in a language people are familiar with, and who understand the development of - and aren't afraid to participate in - the daily battles and partial struggles of working class people, even though it means running the risk of being 'tainted' with 'unsavory' influences.

I think that we are involved in day to day battles, and while I recognise that sometimes our language isn't good, I think that it isn't always bad and is improving generally.

An example of stuff that we have been involved with here in Ankara this year is the stuff around TEKEL. These three articles outline what was going on in the struggle:
http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/2010/01/tekel-turkey
http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/2010/06/tekel
http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/2010/05/tekel-what-are-the-unions-doing

There are a couple of phrases in there that seem a bit strange like 'honourable struggle', but it is translated from the Turkish where it sounds OK. Otherwise I think the language is pretty normal.

Of course, on our Turkish site (http://tr.internationalism.org/)you can also find all of the leaflets issued by the ICC in the strike arguing for our politics. We also produced a pamphlet on the struggle (available in Turkish and German), set up a website (http://direnistekiisci.info/) for a group of militant workers, organised a speaking tour of strikers in Germany.

This is just the biggest example of what we have been doing on the ground this year in Ankara. Internationally the ICC is involved in lots of things.

Devrim

[El Rojo]

im a british passport holder. when im anywhere else with lots of brits around I speak french. our history of fucking up the world via empire aside, cite me please another nation who causes extra riot police training when thier football fans visit.

[Glenn Beck]

I'm not making a blanket statement about everyone who posts here, and I never referred to them as "leftists" - I am not a left communist.

Kind of like how I'm not a Stalinist :lol:


But you can't really deny that this sort of attitude (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1793336&postcount=3) is kind of (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1790736&postcount=21) prevalent here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1788176&postcount=5).

Totally; contempt for human beings of all sorts is something this site has in no short supply. I still couldn't resist a jab at a silly rhetorical style. A prevalent trend if you will :P