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Sasha
30th June 2010, 10:50
Doctor Treating Pregnant Women With Experimental Drug To Prevent Lesbianism (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2010/06/29/doctor-treating-pregnant-women-with-experimental-drug-to-prevent-lesbianism)

Posted by Dan Savage (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/ArticleArchives?author=259) on Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 3:14 PM

That's not fair, as Hanna Rosin at Slate will shortly point out. Pediatric endocrinologist Maria New—of the Mount Sinai School of Medicine and Florida International University—isn't just trying to prevent lesbianism by treating pregnant women with an experimental hormone. She's also trying to prevent the births of girls who display an "abnormal" disinterest in babies, don't want to play with girls' toys or become mothers, and whose "career preferences" are deemed to "masculine." (http://www.thehastingscenter.org/Bioethicsforum/Post.aspx?id=4754&blogid=140) Unbelievable:

The majority of researchers and clinicians interested in the use of prenatal “dex” focus on preventing development of ambiguous genitalia in girls with CAH. CAH results in an excess of androgens prenatally, and this can lead to a “masculinizing” of a female fetus’s genitals. One group of researchers, however, seems to be suggesting that prenatal dex also might prevent affected girls from turning out to be homosexual or bisexual. Pediatric endocrinologist Maria New, of Mount Sinai School of Medicine and Florida International University, and her long-time collaborator, psychologist Heino F. L. Meyer-Bahlburg, of Columbia University, have been tracing evidence for the influence of prenatal androgens in sexual orientation.... They specifically point to reasons to believe that it is prenatal androgens that have an impact on the development of sexual orientation. The authors write, "Most women were heterosexual, but the rates of bisexual and homosexual orientation were increased above controls . . . and correlated with the degree of prenatal androgenization.” They go on to suggest that the work might offer some insight into the influence of prenatal hormones on the development of sexual orientation in general. “That this may apply also to sexual orientation in at least a subgroup of women is suggested by the fact that earlier research has repeatedly shown that about one-third of homosexual women have (modestly) increased levels of androgens.” They “conclude that the findings support a sexual-differentiation perspective involving prenatal androgens on the development of sexual orientation.”
And it isn’t just that many women with CAH have a lower interest, compared to other women, in having sex with men. In another paper entitled “What Causes Low Rates of Child-Bearing in Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia?” Meyer-Bahlburg writes that “CAH women as a group have a lower interest than controls in getting married and performing the traditional child-care/housewife role. As children, they show an unusually low interest in engaging in maternal play with baby dolls, and their interest in caring for infants, the frequency of daydreams or fantasies of pregnancy and motherhood, or the expressed wish of experiencing pregnancy and having children of their own appear to be relatively low in all age groups.”
In the same article, Meyer-Bahlburg suggests that treatments with prenatal dexamethasone might cause these girls’ behavior to be closer to the expectation of heterosexual norms: “Long term follow-up studies of the behavioral outcome will show whether dexamethasone treatment also prevents the effects of prenatal androgens on brain and behavior.”
In a paper published just this year in the Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, New and her colleague, pediatric endocrinologist Saroj Nimkarn of Weill Cornell Medical College, go further, constructing low interest in babies and men—and even interest in what they consider to be men’s occupations and games—as “abnormal,” and potentially preventable with prenatal dex:
“Gender-related behaviors, namely childhood play, peer association, career and leisure time preferences in adolescence and adulthood, maternalism, aggression, and sexual orientation become masculinized in 46,XX girls and women with 21OHD deficiency [CAH]. These abnormalities have been attributed to the effects of excessive prenatal androgen levels on the sexual differentiation of the brain and later on behavior.” Nimkarn and New continue: “We anticipate that prenatal dexamethasone therapy will reduce the well-documented behavioral masculinization...”
It seems more than a little ironic to have New, one of the first women pediatric endocrinologists and a member of the National Academy of Sciences, constructing women who go into “men’s” fields as “abnormal.” And yet it appears that New is suggesting that the “prevention” of “behavioral masculinization” is a benefit of treatment to parents with whom she speaks about prenatal dex. In a 2001 presentation to the CARES Foundation (a videotape of which we have), New seemed to suggest to parents that one of the goals of treatment of girls with CAH is to turn them into wives and mothers. Showing a slide of the ambiguous genitals of a girl with CAH, New told the assembled parents:
“The challenge here is... to see what could be done to restore this baby to the normal female appearance which would be compatible with her parents presenting her as a girl, with her eventually becoming somebody’s wife, and having normal sexual development, and becoming a mother. And she has all the machinery for motherhood, and therefore nothing should stop that, if we can repair her surgically and help her psychologically to continue to grow and develop as a girl.”
In the Q&A period, during a discussion of prenatal dex treatments, an audience member asked New, “Isn’t there a benefit to the female babies in terms of reducing the androgen effects on the brain?” New answered, “You know, when the babies who have been treated with dex prenatally get to an age in which they are sexually active, I’ll be able to answer that question.” At that point, she’ll know if they are interested in taking men and making babies.
In a previous Bioethics Forum post, Alice Dreger noted an instance of a prospective father using knowledge of the fraternal birth order effect to try to avoid having a gay son by a surrogate pregnancy. There may be other individualized instances of parents trying to ensure heterosexual children before birth. But the use of prenatal dexamethasone treatments for CAH represents, to our knowledge, the first systematic medical effort attached to a “paradigm” of attempting in utero to reduce rates of homosexuality, bisexuality, and “low maternal interest.”
So no more Elena Kagans, no more Donna Shalalas, no more Martina Navratilovas, no more k.d. langs, no more Constance McMillens—because all women must grow up to suck dick, crank out babies, and do women's work. And the existence of adult women who are not interested in "becoming someone's wife" and "making babies" constitutes a medical emergency that requires women who are currently pregnant to be treated with an experimental hormone. Otherwise their daughters could grow up to, um, be nominated to sit on the Supreme Court, serve as cabinet secretaries, take 18 Grand Slam singles titles, win Grammies, or take their girlfriends to prom.
And we can't have that.
Two things: Gay people have been stressing out about a day arriving when scientists developed treatments to prevent homosexuality. You can read about the preventing gay sheep freak out here (http://blog.bioethics.net/2007/01/martina-navratilova-leave-gay-sheep-alone/), you can read about Twilight of the Golds here (http://theater.nytimes.com/mem/theater/treview.html?res=9F0CE0DA1F3AF931A15753C1A96595826 0), and I recall—but can't quickly find a link for—a "fellow" at the Family Research Council or the American Family Association who backed in-utero hormone treatments to prevent homosexuality. Well, here we are—the day appears to have arrived. Now what are we going to do about it?
And will the Republicans on the Judiciary Committee invite Maria New to testify at Elana Kagan's confirmation hearings? New could argue that Kagan—childless, unmarried Kagan—is unfit to serve on our highest court because her "low maternal interest" pegs her as abnormal, well outside the "maternal mainstream." Maybe GOP senators would be mollified if Kagan knocked back a few bottles of dex during her confirmation hearings?
UPDATE: A little more about dex from Alice Dreger (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fetishes-i-dont-get/201006/have-is-hold-0):

The specific drug we're talking about, dexamethasone, is not a benign drug for pregnant women, nor for the children exposed in utero. The studies we do have on the early prenatal use of "dex" are worrisome. The number of women and children missing from the follow-up studies of this drug use is more worrisome still. This drug is unequivocally experimental and risky. That's why, back in February, I organized interested members of the Bioethics community to fight to make sure every woman offered dex for CAH knows the truth about its experimental and risky nature. (You can read about our efforts in Time magazine (http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1996453,00.html). And you can about the medical establishment's resultant mad scampering to make sure everyone knows this is experimental here (http://www.nxtbook.com/tristar/endo/day4_2010/index.php?startid=8).) Make no mistake: In spite of Dr. Maria New's outrageous FDA-regulation-flaunting claims (http://www.newchf.org/testing.php) that this off-label drug use "has been found safe for mother and child," it ain't been. New is a rogue pediatrician whom medical societies have been nudging (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12324718) (and sometimes yelling at (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/107/4/804?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=congenital+adrenal+hyperplasia&searchid=1058346072824_825&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&journalcode=pediatrics)) for years. Because she apparently wouldn't stop experimenting on these women and children without ethics (http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/morality) oversight, in January I got called in to help by a few freaked-out clinicians. And I called in my colleagues to call out the feds. New just looks and sounds safe (http://www.fetaldex.org/letter_CARES.html) for mothers and children. Which is why she's really dangerous.


source: http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2010/06/29/doctor-treating-pregnant-women-with-experimental-drug-to-prevent-lesbianism

Subcomandante Marcos.
30th June 2010, 12:47
being gay is natural, we should fight the so called "cure"

There is no way this can be accepted, it is fucking disgusting, i will stand with the GBL community and fuck any pigs or doctors that want to "correct" a persons sexuality.

Hetro chauvanism is a dangerous thing, it seeks to supress and kill, the things that make us different.

It is in my view, as bad as the forced sterilisation of thousands of women in the USA in the 70s.

Bad Grrrl Agro
30th June 2010, 16:16
Playing with this with shit with a pregnant woman could be disasterous. Who knows what bad shit it will cause years from now when that shit has affected some kid.

Also if I were a mother and my kid came out and told me "mommy, I'm a lesbian!" I'd say "That's nice honey. Maybe someday you can go out to a lesbian bar, but for now, eat your carrots and brocoli."

The Red Next Door
30th June 2010, 17:31
This could do something else besides doing what the sexuality police, want it to do.
What wrong with people? Why is it so wrong to be DIFFERENT!!!

Bad Grrrl Agro
30th June 2010, 17:38
This could do something else besides doing what the sexuality police, want it to do.
What wrong with people? Why is it so wrong to be DIFFERENT!!!

Because people who are different fuck with the "rules of reality" that bring comforts to those who fit into the heteronormative society. That which doesn't fit into these rules is a threat. And when they see me like the tornado in the wizzard of oz sucking up everyone in my path then holy fuck are they scared. :rolleyes::laugh::laugh::lol::laugh:

leftace53
30th June 2010, 22:46
prenatal dex also might prevent affected girls from turning out to be homosexual or bisexual..."abnormal" disinterest in babies, don't want to play with girls' toys or become mothers, and whose "career preferences" are deemed to "masculine." (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.thehastingscenter.org/Bioethicsforum/Post.aspx?id=4754&blogid=140)

These parents would not have been pleased if I was their child. :rolleyes:

Its amazing that I'm still surprised by this kind of shit being thrown around, but I honestly thought/hoped we had gotten over silly things like "forcing" a "maternal instinct". And they say the "anarchists" vandalizing at G20 is violent. Things like these are infinitely more violent than some property damage.

Sasha
1st July 2010, 13:29
this comment made my day though:


Still... if it results in fewer folk singers, is any price too high?

:lol:

Bad Grrrl Agro
1st July 2010, 20:27
this comment made my day though:



:lol:

I love lesbian folksingers! [fans face] Ay dios mio!

Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor
2nd July 2010, 02:33
Now I don't agree that lesbianism is a problem, but I do wonder about criticism of the experiment itself. It's essentially just research into genetic determination. I mean if the women are born and are naturally straight, it isn't like there is a significant distinction between letting people select the traits of children and letting it occur randomly. Morally, at least.

I don't know that parents should be allowed to utilize any such science if it became available. However, it brings up interesting ideas. If we created people who liked being slaves, would we be doing something wrong? And what is it?

Glenn Beck
2nd July 2010, 04:39
This is some goddamn nazi eugenics shit. Mad science plotting to biochemically program girls into broodmares? The ethics and culture of medicine in this society must be pretty thoroughly degraded for this kind of research to even be thinkable. Some of this stuff seems far-fetched to me, but the fact that people can propose let alone actually experiment with this really shows where their heads are at.

One of the more nauseating things I've read recently.

Rjevan
2nd July 2010, 09:42
This shit is so sick and vile that it's hard to believe! As Glenn says, this could be a story out of the Third Reich. Who the hell is Dr New or anybody else to define that girls who don't want to play with Barbie and don't dream about becoming breeding machines and domestic slaves are "abnormal"?! Now we aren't satisfied with forcing living people to adjust to society's views and expectations anymore, we have to programme them while they are unborn to create "normal" people and make an end to "unnatural" behaviour. Awesome, how about developing a plan for the "final solution" to get rid of the living abominations, too?

Just disgusting and outrageous.

leftace53
2nd July 2010, 13:33
Now I don't agree that lesbianism is a problem, but I do wonder about criticism of the experiment itself. It's essentially just research into genetic determination. I mean if the women are born and are naturally straight, it isn't like there is a significant distinction between letting people select the traits of children and letting it occur randomly. Morally, at least.

I don't know that parents should be allowed to utilize any such science if it became available. However, it brings up interesting ideas. If we created people who liked being slaves, would we be doing something wrong? And what is it?


Now I think genetic determination could work very very well for society someday, however these people aren't trying to "fix" something that would cause pain in an equal society, they're just trying to conform to current oppressive and stigmatic cultures.

If they were actually into genetic determination for the betterment of people, they would try to fix something like allergies, or asthma, things that actually cause harm to people outside of any social "norms". So morally there is definitely a difference because the stigma against homosexuality is "man made", but i think we can all agree that something like allergies aren't exactly "man made".

The Fighting_Crusnik
2nd July 2010, 17:18
Wasn't the concept of forced vaccines being thrown around not too long ago in Massacheusetts? If they do get results with this and create a vaccine, and if the conservatives manage to get forced vaccination laws or if doctors somehow mix the vaccine with a normal vaccine like tetanus, the all hell is going to break out... tbh, this is why I do not support genetic engineering. While there are some benefits, the risks are just too great...

bloodbeard
2nd July 2010, 19:43
I'm too tired to offer any insights into this topic right now, other than WTF? What about the side effects from this steroid?

Hiratsuka
3rd July 2010, 01:04
This has actually been misreported somewhat. The drug is meant to fix pregnancies where the child has an obscure genitalia (intersex). The drug has been used to reduce virilization of females for decades.

The confusion arose because the doctors have found in a different case that increased rates of androgens statistically correlate with lesbianism and bisexuality in a third of all people. Patients are allegedly using the drug to cure lesbianism. The doctors are not advocating such a practice.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1996453,00.html#ixzz0sXZidGII




The early prenatal use of dexamethasone, or dex, has been shown to prevent some of the symptoms of CAH in girls, namely ambiguous genitalia. Because the condition causes overproduction of male hormones in the womb, girls who are affected tend to have genitals that look more male than female, though internal sex organs are normal.

Sasha
3rd July 2010, 18:35
now i wonder why "solidarity forever" suddenly deleted their quite elaborate post (if your intrested this was it:
Who wrote that shit!?? Hopefully not a leftist. You guys need to check your sources before you fall gullible to such incredible hysteria.

Not only is it completely slanderous but so fucking ignorant of medical science and quite embarrasing if a leftist wrote it.

It reeked so completely suspect that I checked her out. Skimmed this 20 page transcript interview done in 2008 in her own words. Page 14 will tell you pretty much what she specializes in .... far from using experimental drugs to prevent lesbianism and reads quite different than what the above article implies.

here.. I'll make it easy for you.

http://www.endo-society.org/about/up...ipt-120408.pdf (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.endo-society.org/about/upload/maria-new-transcript-120408.pdf)

>>So what we pushed forward under Ralph Peterson was that--we began to describe a condition called congenital adrenal hyperplasia, in which I’m now recognized as an expert. But the fundamental work was done while I was a fellow with Ralph Peterson. And it proved to be not an infrequent disease. It has the result of causing genital ambiguity in girls, when the girl is affected. And so one of the great triumphs is that on my own I started a program in the US, which had just occurred in France, which is to treat mothers--to treat the fetus at risk for this disease, so that she could be born with normal genitalia. That was very important work because you replaced what was missing in the fetus, and at the same time you stopped the genital ambiguity, which required genital surgery. And the genital surgery is very difficult; it’s mutilating. And now the results are coming out in those girls who had had genital surgery--and the results are sort of catastrophic in adult women. They never can have sexual intercourse because they get--not never, but very difficult--because they end up with vaginal stenosis. The fact that prenatal treatment could prevent this, and that you didn’t need the surgery, which caused abnormalities of genitalia as a result of the surgery--it was another option for parents, who were at risk to having a child like this.>>

<<
Could you say a little bit more about that concept you have--the "prismatic case"
New: Well, I wanted to explain that when I worked out what Lisa had--see, the way all of us protect ourselves from this natural hormone we have--called hydrocortisone or cortisol--is we convert it to an inactive steroid called cortisone, and cortisone is inactive because it can’t enter the receptor. We all balance this out through an enzyme that does that conversion, which is called 11betaHSD2. If you lack that enzyme on the basis of a genetic defect, what happens is all the cortisol is active--bioactive--and it enters the receptor for the salt-retaining hormones and drives up the blood pressure. You can stop it by blocking the receptor with a receptor blocker. And that’s how we treated her. Nevertheless, she went back to the Zuni reservation and at the age of sixteen died, I think, because she stopped taking her medication.>>

Here is the link from Mayo Clinic (another pro-hetero, anti-gay cabal) of what congenital adrenal hyperplasia is.

http://www.bing.com/health/article/mayo-126589/Congenital-adrenal-hyperplasia?q=congenital+adrenal+hyperplasia (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.bing.com/health/article/mayo-126589/Congenital-adrenal-hyperplasia?q=congenital+adrenal+hyperplasia)

And here is her CV
http://www.endo-society.org/about/upload/CV-Maria-New_2008-2.pdf (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.endo-society.org/about/upload/CV-Maria-New_2008-2.pdf))
about how false and slandorous these aquisations are. Might have to do sommething with this follow up post?

Maria Bustillos at The Awl (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2010/07/02/maria-bustillos-at-the-awl)

Posted by Dan Savage (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/ArticleArchives?author=259) on Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 2:41 PM

Maria Bustillos at The Awl—like Hanna Rosin at Slate—has her head up her ass (http://www.theawl.com/2010/07/doctors-really-not-testing-drug-on-pregnant-women-so-as-to-prevent-lesbianism). In a post today, Bustillos asserts that Dr. Maria New isn't doing what Dr. New has admitted to doing: treating pregnant women with a potentially dangerous hormone in order to prevent their lesbianism (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2010/06/29/doctor-treating-pregnant-women-with-experimental-drug-to-prevent-lesbianism).
Alice Dreger demolishes Bustillos in an email:

Here's the thing: It's obvious from New's writing (see the quotes in our Bioethics Forum post (http://www.thehastingscenter.org/Bioethicsforum/Post.aspx?id=4754&blogid=140)) and speaking (see the quote in the Bioethics Forum post about "machinery for motherhood") that she lumps together all of these things—ambiguous genitalia, lesbianism, interest in trucks and science—as being "abnormalities" that should/can be prevented either with dex, or else with genital surgeries (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2010/06/16/female-genital-mutilation-at-cornell-university) if the dex didn't get there in time. We've said all along (including in the BF post) that most docs are not interested in using this drug for prevention of lesbianism, etc. Most are interested in preventing ambiguous genitalia. We've also said (http://fetaldex.org/home.html) that there is one legitimate medical problem that dex could prevent, namely development of a confluence of the urethra and vagina, which can result in infections and problems with intercourse later.
So what's the problem? This is a very risky drug that should not be used outside of clinical trials according to nearly every medical expert except New (http://www.nxtbook.com/tristar/endo/day4_2010/index.php?startid=8). Some docs, like Walter Miller of UCSF, have said (http://www.caresfoundation.org/productcart/pc/news_letter/Newsletter-PDF/Winter_09.pdf) it should never be used for this because too many unaffected fetuses (7/8) are being hit with the risky drug, since it has to be given before docs can know if the fetus is a female with CAH.
Miller, Chief of Endocrinology at UCSF, gave me permission to quote him: "It seems to me that the main point of prenatal [dex] therapy is to allay parental anxiety (http://fetaldex.org/home.html). In that construct, one must question the ethics of using the fetus as a reagent to treat the parent, especially when the risks are non-trivial."
But New has apparently been treating hundreds (http://www.caresfoundation.org/productcart/pc/news_letter/winter02-03_page_9.htm) of pregnant women outside clinical trials (http://blogs.nature.com/nm/spoonful/2010/06/clitoroplasty_and_dex_studies_1.html) without, apparently, telling women this is an experimental drug (http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1996453,00.html). On top of that, when New says that she thinks lesbianism, low maternal interest, and a female having interest in "men's" hobbies and occupations are "abnormalities" (which she does (http://www.thehastingscenter.org/Bioethicsforum/Post.aspx?id=4754&blogid=140)) potentially preventable with this drug (which she does (http://www.thehastingscenter.org/Bioethicsforum/Post.aspx?id=4754&blogid=140)), Houston, we have a problem. That's a serious abuse of medicine (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fetishes-i-dont-get/201006/have-is-hold-0), and an affront to the rights of all women, but especially the rights of lesbian and bi women.
Sorry, Maria, but the record clearly demonstrates that this doctor—Maria New—really is using a drug on pregnant women to prevent lesbianism, a drug that most doctors don't think should be administered to any pregnant woman at all, regardless of their fetuses risks for CAH.