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freepalestine
29th June 2010, 18:31
Lieberman plan to strip Palestinians of citizenship - Jonathan Cook
Published yesterday (updated) 29/06/2010 15:42
http://maannews.net/eng/images/ViewDetails/Eng-1.jpg http://maannews.net/eng/images/ViewDetails/Eng+1.jpg



http://maannews.net/images/PhotoViewer/28889.jpg

Avigdor Lieberman, Israels far-right foreign minister, set out last week what he called a blueprint for a resolution to the conflict with the Palestinians that demands most of the countrys large Palestinian minority be stripped of citizenship and relocated outside Israels future borders.

Lieberman warned that Israel faces growing diplomatic pressure for a full withdrawal to the Green Line, the pre-1967 border. Lieberman said that, if such a partition were implemented, the conflict will inevitably pass beyond those borders and into Israel.

He accused many of Israels 1.3 million Palestinian citizens of acting against Israel while their leaders actively assist those who want to destroy the Jewish state.

Liebermans Yisrael Beiteinu party campaigned in last years elections on a platform of No loyalty, no citizenship and has proposed a raft of loyalty laws over the past year targeted at the Palestinian minority.

True peace, the foreign minister claimed, would come only with land swaps, or an exchange of populated territories to create two largely homogeneous states, one Jewish Israeli and the other Arab Palestinian. He added that under his plan those Arabs who were in Israel will now receive Palestinian citizenship.

Unusually, Lieberman, who is also deputy prime minister, offered his plan in a commentary for the English-language Israeli daily newspaper Jerusalem Post, apparently in an attempt to make maximum impact on the international community.

He has spoken repeatedly in the past about drawing the borders in a way to forcibly exchange Palestinian communities in Israel for the Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

But under orders from Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister, he has kept a relatively low profile on the conflicts larger issues since his controversial appointment to head the foreign ministry more than a year ago.

In early 2009, Lieberman, who lives in the West Bank settlement of Noqedim, upset his own supporters by advocating the creation of a viable Palestinian state, though he has remained unclear about what it would require in practice.

Liebermans revival of his population transfer plan - an idea he unveiled six years ago - comes as the Israeli leadership has understood that it is isolated like never before, according to Michael Warschawski, an Israeli analyst.

Netanyahus government has all but stopped paying lip service to US-sponsored proximity talks with the Palestinians after outraging global public opinion with attacks on Gaza 18 months ago and on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla four weeks ago in which nine civilians were killed.

Israels relations with the international community are likely to deteriorate further in late summer when a 10-month partial freeze on settlement expansion in the West Bank expires. Last week, Netanyahu refused to answer questions about the freeze, after a vote by his Likud partys central committee to support renewed settlement building from late September.

Other looming diplomatic headaches for Israel are the return of the Goldstone Report, which suggested Israel committed war crimes in its attack on Gaza, to the United Nations General Assembly in late July, and Turkeys adoption of the rotating presidency of the Security Council in September.

Warschawski, a founder of the Alternative Information Centre, a joint Israeli-Palestinian advocacy group, said that, faced with these crises, Israels political elite had split into two camps.

Most, including Lieberman, believed Israel should push ahead with its unilateral policies towards the Palestinians and refuse to engage in a peace process regardless of the likely international repercussions.

Israels ruling elite knows that the only solution to the conflict acceptable to the international community is an end to the occupation along the lines of the Clinton parameters, he said, referring to the two-state solution promoted by former US president Bill Clinton in late 2000.

None of them, not even Ehud Barak [the defence minister and head of the centrist Labour Party], are ready to accept this as the basis for negotiations.

On the other hand, Tzipi Livni, the head of the center-right opposition Kadima party, Warschawski said, wanted to damp down the international backlash by engaging in direct negotiations with the Palestinian leadership in the West Bank under President Mahmoud Abbas.

Liebermans commentary came a day after he told Livni that she could join the government only if she accepted the principle of trading territory and population as the solution to the Palestinian issue, and give up the principle of land for peace.

Lieberman is reportedly concerned that Netanyahu might seek to bring Livni into a national unity government to placate the US and prop up the legitimacy of his coalition.

The Labor Party has threatened to quit the government if Kadima does not join by the end of September, and Livni is reported to want the foreign ministry.

Liebermans position is further threatened by a series of corruption investigations.

However, he also appears keen to take the initiative from both Washington and Livni with his own peace plan. An unnamed aide to Lieberman told the Jerusalem Post that, with a vacuum in the diplomatic process, the foreign minister thinks he can convince the government to adopt the plan.

However, Warschawski said there were few indications that Netanyahu wanted to be involved in any peace process, even Liebermans.

Last week Uzi Arad, the governments shadowy national security adviser and a long-time confidant of Netanyahu, made a rare public statement at a meeting of the Jewish Agency in Jerusalem to attack Livni for political adventurism and believing in the magic of a two-state solution.

Apparently reflecting Netanyahus own thinking, he said: The more you market Palestinian legitimacy, the more you bring about a detraction of Israels legitimacy in certain circles. [The Palestinians] are accumulating legitimacy, and we are being delegitimized.

Warschawski doubted that Lieberman believed his blueprint for population exchanges could be implemented but was promoting it chiefly to further damage the standing of Israels Palestinian citizens and advance his own political ambitions.

In his commentary, Lieberman said the international communitys peace plan would lead to the one-and-a-half to half state solution: a homogeneous, pure Palestinian state, from which Jewish settlers were expelled, and a bi-national state in Israel, which included many Palestinian citizens.

Palestinians, in both the territories and inside Israel, he said, could not continue to incite against Israel, glorify murder, stigmatize Israel in international forums, boycott Israeli goods and mount legal offensives against Israeli officials.

International law, he added, sanctioned the partition of territory in which ethnic communities were broken up into different states, including in the case of the former Yugoslavia. In most cases there is no physical population transfer or the demolition of houses, but creating a border where none existed, according to demographics, he wrote.

Surveys have shown that Palestinian citizens are overwhelming opposed to population transfer schemes like Liebermans.

Critics note that Lieberman has failed to show how the many Palestinian communities inside Israel that are located far from the Green Line could be incorporated into a Palestinian state without expulsions.

Legal experts also point out that, even if Israel managed to trade territory as part of a peace agreement, stripping Palestinians of their Israeli citizenship as a result of such a deal would violate international law.

Jonathan Cook (http://www.jkcook.net/) is a writer and journalist based in Nazareth, Israel. A version of this article appeared in The National published in Abu Dhabi. It is

http://maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=295288

Red Saxon
29th June 2010, 18:38
I do believe that most Palestinians want the destruction of the Israeli state anyways. Anyone care about uprooting 5.5 million Jews?

Create one multinational state like Switzerland in the meantime until we get simply remove the idea of a state entirely.

freepalestine
29th June 2010, 18:59
ofcourse-i also want the destruction of the zionist state.
it's parked on someone elses country,villages,towns,homes-for a start off.
the whites of rsa havent left since the abolishment of the old racist regime,so why would you think it would be any different in isreal/palestine.

Red Saxon
29th June 2010, 19:17
ofcourse-i also want the destruction of the zionist state.
it's parked on someone elses country,villages,towns,homes-for a start off.
the whites of rsa havent left since the abolishment of the old racist regime,so why would you think it would be any different in isreal/palestine.It's not like the Palestinians have helped their position at all by attacking Kibbutzim and harming rather innocent people. Both sides need to realize that they've both killed a lot of innocent people and that they need to share the land that they both find holy.

Destroy the concept that Palestine and Israel should be separate entities, and then you can have peace.

freepalestine
29th June 2010, 20:04
did you read the article.i.e the topic of the thread???

Red Saxon
29th June 2010, 20:13
did you read the article.i.e the topic of the thread???Yeah, they're going to strip them of their Israeli citizenship, leaving them to achieve Palestinian citizenship. Why aren't you happy about this?

freepalestine
29th June 2010, 20:18
Yeah, they're going to strip them of their Israeli citizenship, leaving them to achieve Palestinian citizenship. Why aren't you happy about this?so,do you agree with ethnic cleansing /population transfer then?

The Red Next Door
29th June 2010, 20:19
Welcome to NAZiraell

Red Saxon
29th June 2010, 20:22
so,do you agree with ethnic cleansing /population transfer then?Wouldn't the same thing happen to the Israelis if you were to kick the established communities that have lived there since the six day war out?

You're incredibly biased.

the last donut of the night
29th June 2010, 21:35
It's not like the Palestinians have helped their position at all by attacking Kibbutzim and harming rather innocent people. Both sides need to realize that they've both killed a lot of innocent people and that they need to share the land that they both find holy.


This is the classic liberal position on this issue that is completely wrong. Buddy, look at any statistics and you'll see that this is not a competition between two equally-matched sides. The Zionist occupation has been brutal on the Palestinian population, who now squanders for basic resources in a few square miles of basically large-scale prison camps while the Israeli population enjoys one of the best living standards in the whole Middle East, aided by US money too.

And then, robbed of their land, their farms, waters, and resources, the Palestinians attack with simple, ineffective rockets and bombs, both of which kill very few people compared to Israel's attacks on Gaza (and this is not counting the other occupied territories) and are blamed by liberals like you for "being just as evil as the other side"? That's ridiculous.


Let's compare a few images. Try to guess which ones are in Israel and which ones are in the occupied territories and maybe we'll see if they're both evenly matched powers:

http://isiria.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/white-phosphorus.jpg



http://mazinx.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/1212611191palestinian_students_israelis.jpg


http://samsonblinded.org/news/wp-content/uploads/HLIC/782f7899f24b52d7d424eca4d32f5820.jpg

http://www.crownheights.info/media/2/20081113-sderot.jpg

http://suren1946.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/israeli-soldier-pointing-a-gun-at-a-child-wonder-what-happened-next.jpg

Do you still think they're evenly matched powers?

Read up, dude. The history of Zionism is built on the bodies of Palestinians.

Red Saxon
29th June 2010, 21:48
I have "read up" on the history of this whole bloody mess. I know the entire history and I know the perspectives from both sides. I know the reasons why the Zionists came to Palestine during the British Occupation (and before) and I know what the Arabs were doing there during the Ottoman, Greek, Christian, and Muslim eras.

What about the Palestinian children shows that call for the violent destruction of the Jewish state, and to "throw the Jews into the sea."? What about Hammas gunmen who attack the United Nations in Gaza who bring in humanitarian aid? This is the same Hammas that hides behind school and hospitals, only to have Israel come in and get everyone pissed for attacking the occupied Hospitals and Schools.

This cycle of hatred isn't going to end until nationalism on both sides dies.

the last donut of the night
29th June 2010, 22:22
I have "read up" on the history of this whole bloody mess. I know the entire history and I know the perspectives from both sides. I know the reasons why the Zionists came to Palestine during the British Occupation (and before) and I know what the Arabs were doing there during the Ottoman, Greek, Christian, and Muslim eras.


What about the Palestinian children shows that call for the violent destruction of the Jewish state, and to "throw the Jews into the sea."?

Don't you also wish for the violent overthrow of the Zionist state, which masquerades itself as a positive forces for Jews internationally when it's actually just a settler, colonial state?

You bring up anti-antisemitism, just like the Western liberals do all the time. Of course there's anti-antisemitism in the occupied territories. However, not all Palestinians who wish for the end to Israel are antisemites -- that's an exaggeration, to say the least. Most just want decent lives again. Of course, there are groups which use antisemitism as either a discourse or a jab against Zionism, and that should be criticized by all revolutionaries, but isn't that just a poor response to Israeli terror in these people's lives?

What's much more hypocritical is Israeli right-wing rhetoric. Racist talk of Palestinians as barbarous, uncultured, savage, greedy, and blood-lusty animals is extremely common is Israeli politics, from the "left" to the right. Almost all of the Israeli population supported the Gaza War in 2008 and mostly all of them carry horrible views on their subjugated neighbors.




What about Hammas gunmen who attack the United Nations in Gaza who bring in humanitarian aid? This is the same Hammas that hides behind school and hospitals, only to have Israel come in and get everyone pissed for attacking the occupied Hospitals and Schools.

I don't think Hamas ever did this. It seems you're blaming the Palestinians for getting "pissed" at Israel when it attacks their already crumbling hospitals and schools because they supported Hamas in the first place. Your acceptance of the bourgeois media's lies is either woefully ignorant, to say the least.


This cycle of hatred isn't going to end until nationalism on both sides dies.

This is what really bothers me about the ultra-left perspective on this issue. By crying, "death to all nationalism, the Palestinians are just complicit in buying this bourgeois structure, etc etc" the ultra-left idea completely forgoes reality. In reality, it's impossible to just have Palestinian nationalism (or just resistance, because that's what the jeer of "nationalism" in revolutionary circles is aimed to cover up) die. It's impossible for both Palestinian and Israeli workers unite to throw off both the shackles of Zionism and capitalism. The Israeli working class has gained substantial amounts from Zionism, and they'll only unite with the Palestinian working class when their state begins to suffer enormous losses on the other side of the wall. It is condescending and reactionary for us Western leftists to cry for the Palestinian proletariat to stop resistance in the name of anti-nationalism or working-class unity.

Boboulas
29th June 2010, 23:30
Damn that pesky hamas group, we've been torturing, opressing, humiliating and murdering the palestinians since our state was created then these guys show up, get democraticly elected, then start defending the palestinians?!?!?!

Outrageous i say!!

Honestly how can anyone even remotely sympathise with the zionist state. Both sides have done terrible things but israel state racism and discrimination creates a population that hate them and then they wonder why they want to destroy their state.

P.S There is no credible evidence of hamas hiding in schools, behind children or in hospitals. Its a propaganda effort by israel to give them this kind of justification "well there was a mortar in the basement of that hospital so we had to totaly level it to the ground to make sure the mortar was destroyed", all lies.

Glenn Beck
30th June 2010, 02:08
This is the same Hammas that hides behind school and hospitals, only to have Israel come in and get everyone pissed for attacking the occupied Hospitals and Schools.

I'm just at a loss for words. You can't be fucking serious about this shit, can you?

So you swallow the IDF's bullshit hook line and sinker? You seriously think Israel is justified in bombarding civilian structures on the pretext that there's "terrorists" hiding behind them? You think the atrocities of Israel, with one of the most powerful and technologically advanced militaries on Earth can compare to the desperate acts of Palestine's grassroots insurgencies? That Israel has any moral authority to demand that these weak insurgencies stand out in the open to be slaughtered or behave in whatever way Israel pleases, after everything they've done to the Palestinian Territories?


Yeah, they're going to strip them of their Israeli citizenship, leaving them to achieve Palestinian citizenship. Why aren't you happy about this?

I mean normally none of this crap would faze me, but you're coming out with all this self-righteous "revolutionary" crap on a leftist website. It's a goddamn disgrace. I mean, you say we should be celebrating the Israeli state stripping citizenship rights from over a million people?!

What the fuck, man. You're practically a goddamn fascist.

Sam_b
30th June 2010, 02:41
This is the same Hammas that hides behind school and hospitals, only to have Israel come in and get everyone pissed.


This is my favourite gem amongst your reactionary crap. The old chesnut of 'Hamas hide behind civilians omg!!!!!'.

I don't doubt your intelligence, no hold on I definitely do. Being one of the highest concentrated and blockaded areas in the world, a prison camp trapped between a wall and a hard place, where else are Hamas going to go? Float a military base in the fucking sea?

Thankfully the mass of the Palestinian people reject your nonsense, and support resistance by any means necessary to set them free.

By the way i'm sure there's a thread about that kids TV show somewhere where your argument is completely debunked. But good luck finding the rest of your sources!

Nothing Human Is Alien
30th June 2010, 03:52
Thankfully the mass of the Palestinian people reject your nonsense, and support resistance by any means necessary to set them free.

Could you tell me how "Hamas is going to set the Palestinian people free?"

Thanks.

The Fighting_Crusnik
30th June 2010, 04:17
The way that I see it, both the Palestinians and the Jews have committed disgusting actions against each other and against other people. Ultimately, I agree that nationalism needs to die on both sides and the people need to learn to live together by giving power to the Palestinians and by giving sovereignty to Gaza. Also, I would argue for the idea that Israel needs not let any more Jews migrate to that area and reparations need to be paid for the land taken and for crimes committed... however, both sides refuse to take the steps needed to come to peace, so I doubt that we'll see anything change until a war or something breaks out.

freepalestine
30th June 2010, 04:30
Could you tell me how "Hamas is going to set the Palestinian people free?" Thanks.
I believe he said"resistance" would-not the hamas faction(another topic?) -nor indeed solely armed struggle.

Sam_b
30th June 2010, 04:36
Could you tell me how "Hamas is going to set the Palestinian people free?"

Thanks.

Well, its not really my statement...

I would assume you of all people would know the IST's position on the Middle East, and how we will support the people of Palestine's right to resist by force. If a significant amount of them are using the vehicle of Hamas to do this, then so be it.

Barry Lyndon
30th June 2010, 04:48
RedSaxon,

I am going to be generous and assume what you are saying is out of ignorance and naivete, all I have to ask you is, if you consider yourself a leftist, why are you buying any of this crap that the capitalist media says about Israel and Palestine? They lie about communism and anarchism, so why would you believe them on this issue?

Here are a number of good online sources on Israel/Palestine:

http://electronicintifada.net/
http://www.pchrgaza.org/portal/en/
http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp

A good documentary on the conflict:Occupation 101-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SbjAanvUqs

Take a good look at these, and then get back to us. If your interested, there are some books I could recommend.

Iv'e argued about this issue with idiots for years, your one of a long line.

Saorsa
30th June 2010, 05:23
Dear RedSaxon,

Please shoot yourself.

Lots of love,

Genuine communists around the world.

Nothing Human Is Alien
30th June 2010, 15:01
Well, its not really my statement...

Well, this is:

"Thankfully the mass of the Palestinian people reject your nonsense, and support resistance by any means necessary to set them free."


I would assume you of all people would know the IST's position on the Middle East, and how we will support the people of Palestine's right to resist by force. If a significant amount of them are using the vehicle of Hamas to do this, then so be it.

Yes, I know the Cliffite position: urge workers to follow hostile class forces in a reactionary organization that seeks to found theocratic states in the name of "anti-imperialism."

What I am asking is how this is going to "set them free."

Red Saxon
30th June 2010, 15:27
I am going to be generous and assume what you are saying is out of ignorance and naivete, all I have to ask you is, if you consider yourself a leftist, why are you buying any of this crap that the capitalist media says about Israel and Palestine?
I wonder why other leftists make an exception for Palestinian Nationalism while condemning all other forms.

Sam_b
30th June 2010, 17:00
Yes, I know the Cliffite position: urge workers to follow hostile class forces in a reactionary organization that seeks to found theocratic states in the name of "anti-imperialism."

What I am asking is how this is going to "set them free."

So if you already have this loaded opinion, and I would venture fundamental misunderstanding of the Hamas vehicle, are you just looking for an answer so you can position yourself?

Nothing Human Is Alien
30th June 2010, 17:05
I am asking you an honest question. How does this "set them free?"


fundamental misunderstanding of the Hamas vehicle

Where is my "fundamental" error? Is Hamas not an organization representative of classes with interests hostile to those of the working class? Does it not seek to construct an Islamic State? Is it not reactionary?

Sam_b
30th June 2010, 17:13
The question itself is really much of a non-answer though, isn't it? If I could get a loan of a crystal ball i'd probaly be able to tell you exactly what tactic will set the Palestinian people free. I was more pointing out that we should support the Palestinian people by any rational means necessary, and most Palestinians support any means necessary to secure liberation.

Nothing Human Is Alien
30th June 2010, 17:43
Well I was using your words. But fine, let's change the question: What is supporting Hamas going to liberate them from?

Sam_b
30th June 2010, 18:01
The question itself is really much of a non-answer though, isn't it? If I could get a loan of a crystal ball i'd probaly be able to tell you exactly what tactic will set the Palestinian people free. I was more pointing out that we should support the Palestinian people by any rational means necessary, and most Palestinians support any means necessary to secure liberation

Boboulas
30th June 2010, 18:16
Are you for real?

Liberate them from occupation and humiliation. Liberate them from state racism and zionism.

I support hamas because i belive that even if a capitalist islamic state is created it will be better than the current situation. I would like to allign myself with the PFLP but they hold little to no influence or power in gaza where most of israels crimes are carried out.

The PFLP do good in opposing the conflict between fatah and hamas but they need to expand into gaza, something which israel stops them from doing as well as hamas.

danyboy27
30th June 2010, 21:41
Are you for real?

Liberate them from occupation and humiliation. Liberate them from state racism and zionism.

I support hamas because i belive that even if a capitalist islamic state is created it will be better than the current situation. I would like to allign myself with the PFLP but they hold little to no influence or power in gaza where most of israels crimes are carried out.

The PFLP do good in opposing the conflict between fatah and hamas but they need to expand into gaza, something which israel stops them from doing as well as hamas.
that a big if.

Homo Songun
30th June 2010, 23:55
I wonder why other leftists make an exception for Palestinian Nationalism while condemning all other forms.

This is not a mystery. Imperialism is the primary contradiction in the world today. If so, nationalism on the part of people oppressed by Imperialism is necessarily progressive. In fact you, along with all peace loving and progressive people in the world should sincerely thank Hamas and the Palestinian people for so graciously pinning down the Israeli-American imperialist project in Palestine for the forseeable future. Their sacrifice is the reason why the US and its poodle vassal states haven't yet invaded Iran or Pakistan. Let me ask, are you or any of your immediate family in the US/UK and registered in the Selective Service? How would you feel about you or they dying alone in some fucking Persian wasteland? Because the day the US invades Iran is the day the draft comes back. Hows that for stupid ass nationalism?

Boboulas
1st July 2010, 00:07
that a big if.

Everything in life is anyway right?

Saorsa
1st July 2010, 13:45
The PFLP do good in opposing the conflict between fatah and hamas but they need to expand into gaza, something which israel stops them from doing as well as hamas.

The PFLP does have something of a base in Gaza. It held a rally there not so long ago that attracted over 70,000 people.

http://www.pflp.ps/english/?q=unity-and-steadfastness-over-70000-rally-gaza-pflp

Boboulas
1st July 2010, 18:24
Wow i had no idea, thanks for posting.

Proletarian Ultra
1st July 2010, 19:17
Why does Red Saxon assume that abolishing the Zionist state means forced population transfer of the Jews?

That's a rather large leap.

Equal rights; equal laws; one person one vote. That's a dead Zionist state.

Dimentio
2nd July 2010, 14:37
I wonder why other leftists make an exception for Palestinian Nationalism while condemning all other forms.

Some leftists are supportive of non-western nationalism, even apologising for Saddam.

Barry Lyndon
3rd July 2010, 20:54
Some leftists are supportive of non-western nationalism, even apologising for Saddam.

There's a rather big difference between supporting the Palestinian people's legitimate struggle against a colonial occupation and supporting a murderous dictator who massacres his own people.

Fail.

Barry Lyndon
3rd July 2010, 23:08
The PFLP does have something of a base in Gaza. It held a rally there not so long ago that attracted over 70,000 people.

http://www.pflp.ps/english/?q=unity-and-steadfastness-over-70000-rally-gaza-pflp

That's pretty large given that the entire population of the Gaza Strip is 1.5 million.

freepalestine
4th July 2010, 22:45
considering there was a restriction on movement in gaza imposed by the iof.and also problems created by hamas in allowing and letting people go to that rally,i guess it was a significant gathering of their members

Adi Shankara
4th July 2010, 23:01
I find it strikingly similar to the stripping of citizenship from South African blacks when they were sent to the Bantustans...oh, how fast the oppressed becomes the oppressor.