I'm looking to set-up a "militant" anti-fascist group in the UK to counter EDL demos

[durhamleft]

This groups would not be violent, but by 'militant' I mean it would go wherever they go, would consist of several hundred members and would actively try to disrupt their marches (ie. get into streets where they intend to march and refuse to march).

I very much like the 'black bloc' idea- of disguising identity, but disapprove of their tactics of smashing stuff up though.

It just seems to me like we need people who will track these bastards and it would be good to have a situation where theyre scared to leave their police cordens rather than currently where if they break out they feel able to run rampage and hurt who they want.

This group would not promote violence at all, but it strikes me that we've let them get away with too much so far and it would be good to see some left resistance to fascist marches.

So, the questions are how on earth would I go about setting this up, whether or not you think it's a good idea, and finally how many people we can mobilise for Bradford, as less then 200 and we won't be able to break up the march.

[durhamleft]

http://yorks-afed.org/

Having seen that link this appears exactly the type of showing we need. :)

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Funnily enough this has been going through my head over the last few days. We could benefit from an "Anti-Fascist Defence League" to counter attack violent demos and the like.

Obviously this group would not be an aggressive group, merely defensive in the sense that it defends people from fascist violence etc.

As for setting it up, I guess you get a small team of people that are interested and spread the world amongst anti-fascists all over the country, as well as requesting support from parties/trade unions.

I'm willing to discuss this further if you want to put something together.

EDIT: I was thinking for a nationwide organization, but as for Bradford, advertise on here and places like facebook, for an anti-EDL counter demo and you should attract a lot of people. How/if you organize these people is a separate matter.

[durhamleft]

Funnily enough this has been going through my head over the last few days. We could benefit from an "Anti-Fascist Defence League" to counter attack violent demos and the like.

Obviously this group would not be an aggressive group, merely defensive in the sense that it defends people from fascist violence etc.

As for setting it up, I guess you get a small team of people that are interested and spread the world amongst anti-fascists all over the country, as well as requesting support from parties/trade unions.

I'm willing to discuss this further if you want to put something together.

EDIT: I was thinking for a nationwide organization, but as for Bradford, advertise on here and places like facebook, for an anti-EDL counter demo and you should attract a lot of people. How/if you organize these people is a separate matter.

I think I would like to, give me a few days to ponder how we may go about this and I'll get back to you with some ideas. In Newcastle for example the revolutionary left brought out about 150 members of which 30 or 40 wanted to disrupt the EDL march, and it simply was not good enough.
We would need a base of a few thousand and an ability to mobilise hundreds of really committed anti-fascists within a few days- no easy challenge!

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I think I would like to, give me a few days to ponder how we may go about this and I'll get back to you with some ideas. In Newcastle for example the revolutionary left brought out about 150 members of which 30 or 40 wanted to disrupt the EDL march, and it simply was not good enough.
We would need a base of a few thousand and an ability to mobilise hundreds of really committed anti-fascists within a few days- no easy challenge!
Its very difficult. I reckon the best thing that can be done as it stands is to announce national opposition demos at EDL demos, to try and attract people from all over the UK. This could be a step towards building a united, militant anti-fascist league.

Lets talk about it anyway, see if we can at least try and organize a national counter demo of sorts.

[Luther Blissett]

The EDL are on to this already.

They're planning to disrupt the meeting.

The thread is called
"Communist and Anarchists plan to set up a militant faction to directly challenge the EDL".

[WelshANTIFA]

After taking part in many counter-demonstrations against the EDL, violence is always inevitable. It's important to fight fire with fire, as those EDL thugs love a bit of a scrap, especially with us lefties. I'd be interested in joining a militant group that directly opposes the EDL, but let us not forget that ANTIFA is growing through out the UK, and will be attending more counter demonstrations against the EDL, so it would be important to take that into consideration when searching for people to join.

[Blackscare]

The EDL are on to this already.

They're planning to disrupt the meeting.

The thread is called
"Communist and Anarchists plan to set up a militant faction to directly challenge the EDL".

Obviously they watch placed like these. Just don't give out the particulars of where such meetings are held, etc, on a public forum. They may be aware of your plans, and are no doubt watching this thread, but unless you post specific information out in the open they have nothing to work with. PM people, and watch who you PM info to. Examine the profile of anyone expressing interest in joining and trying to obtain information, look at their post count, what they've said in the past, etc. This site is pretty good at weeding out fasc sympathizers quickly, so if you see someone who has posted here a good bit there's a good chance they're ok. Be vigilant though.

[The Grey Blur]

The whole point of the current anti-fascist movement, both anarchist hardlads and UAF liberals is that neither are capable of organising LOCAL WORKING CLASS PEOPLE ON A GRASSROOTS AND CONSISTENT LEVEL to counter the EDL. The entire conclusion of Marxism, of any sort of class analysis, has to be that we (the working class) greatly outnumber the EDL if we can make a real strong showing - but this has to be built around the organised working class - the unions - convincing unions to not only fund UAF gatherings but commit their members (many of who are the most vocal members of tha anti-fa movement) to come along in numbers (I certainly fancy the chances of dockers, factory workers, posties, etc against the EDL rather than middle class UAF/anarchist students). We have to make an argument across class lines that the EDL are incorrect - the problems which certainly do exist in terms of the housing crisis, unemployment, etc are not the fault of immigrants but rather a product of capitalism. The anti-Islam stuff should be countered with a materialist perspective - that we also disagree with religious extremists but that Islam is not an exception in terms of this and that the threat of militant Islam sharia law a takeover etc is non-existent and peddled by the calculating fascists (many of them wealthy businessmen) at the top of the EDL and bought up by their disenfranchised young working-class following.

All you're proposing is something which will terrify even more local working-class people in Dudley, in Bolton, in Bradford, in London etc - not to mention the prime argument used by liberals and the state against the anti-fa left - that the left is nothing more than a mirror image of the EDL, the two just want a good scrap. I completely reject this as should any sane marxist - we want to use the marxist tactics of democratic workplace and community organising - not football hooligans-on tour style rubbish. I appreciate your militancy but as the link above about EDL keeping track of this stuff you can obviously see how you're on the wrong track. They can always beat us (the activist left) up but they can't beat up an entire organised local working-class community, many of whom they would recognise as from a similar situation as themselves. We have to focus on a serious challenge to the EDL and the far-right and this means a serious task, not one planned on internet forums and in secretive blanquist whispers, but rather in the workplace, in the universities, openly on the street and anywhere you encounter racist and anti-worker arguments etc.

[Luther Blissett]

Count me out.

Militancy & violence is what the EDL threaten against communities, against workers movements, against the leftwing.

If I took that role, people not involved with EDL would not listen to what I had to say and they would not join in the events/meetings planned.

People involved with EDL would not listen either, as they would feel threatened on two fronts - through the media-hype/counter-jeee-hadi hype against wadical Islamismism, and through their own leaders' hype against 'the lefty twaitors'.

Non-EDL might feel endangered to stand with us against the EDL.

I am interested in non-violent & non-confrontational strategies though.

[samofshs]

a group of people who are fine with commiting violent acts would only need about ten people to stop a march......... and i'm not talking about black bloc violence. i'm talking about being guerillas for peace.

[Chambered Word]

Count me out.

Militancy & violence is what the EDL threaten against communities, against workers movements, against the leftwing.


...and how does it follow logically that those people should just accept EDL violence instead of resisting?

[nuisance]

a group of people who are fine with commiting violent acts would only need about ten people to stop a march......... and i'm not talking about black bloc violence. i'm talking about being guerillas for peace.
lol.

[Fidel Follower]

I am interested in non-violent & non-confrontational strategies though.

Good luck.. if people had said that in the 1980's racial violence would have been huge.
If you do want a 'non violent' strategy, join the UAF, you'll never be close to an EDL member.

And again, it's almost impossible to counter a group like the EDL without confrontation, confrontation doesn't have to be violent it just means that you have to position yourself to stop them.

[HammerAlias]

Comrade, if I were living in the UK, I would join you. Unfortunately, I'm on the western front of the anti-fascist war.

[Stephen Colbert]

Comrade, if I were living in the UK, I would join you. Unfortunately, I'm on the western front of the anti-fascist war.

I know right? The U.S. is a bore

[HammerAlias]

I know right? The U.S. is a bore

Precisely. Here, the right-wing radical groups and the Christian extremists are more prominent than our so-called "revolutionary parties" and generally far-left organizations. We have parties that advocate for radical change and massive rallies, yet none take place. I will admit, we have some protests and civil demonstrations, but nothing major or noteworthy.

[samofshs]

Precisely. Here, the right-wing radical groups and the Christian extremists are more prominent than our so-called "revolutionary parties" and generally far-left organizations. We have parties that advocate for radical change and massive rallies, yet none take place. I will admit, we have some protests and civil demonstrations, but nothing major or noteworthy.
one is either christian or nonchristian, there is no such thing as a "christian extremist". note that different christians believe different things, but being right wing does not make them any more "extreme" of a christian than for example me.
i'm not a "middle of the road" christian, i'm simply a christian who uses their brain every once in a while.

[gorillafuck]

one is either christian or nonchristian, there is no such thing as a "christian extremist". note that different christians believe different things, but being right wing does not make them any more "extreme" of a christian than for example me.
i'm not a "middle of the road" christian, i'm simply a christian who uses their brain every once in a while.
Of course there is such thing as a christian extremist. They are those who take all of the bible literally.

On topic, how about trying to organize class struggle and providing a way forward rather than just trying to combat the EDL? I think that those who most outspokenly oppose groups like the EDL often fail to actually talk about a way forward and that's a real problem.

[HammerAlias]

one is either christian or nonchristian, there is no such thing as a "christian extremist". note that different christians believe different things, but being right wing does not make them any more "extreme" of a christian than for example me.
i'm not a "middle of the road" christian, i'm simply a christian who uses their brain every once in a while.

So, by implication, you suggest that there are no Muslim extremists either? That there are only Muslims and non-Muslims?

[samofshs]

So, by implication, you suggest that there are no Muslim extremists either? That there are only Muslims and non-Muslims?
yes, and that different muslims believe different things. being a terrorist does not make you any more muslim it just makes you a different (imo messed up) kind of muslim.

[IndependentCitizen]

Sorry to drag this up, I'm interested in helping out with a non-violent, but more confrontational organisation.

One that would try to disrupt their marches by occupying roads they're due to walk down, or whatever.

The UAF has been useless in doing anything.

[Sam_b]

The UAF has been useless in doing anything.

Yeah, it's not like the UAF blocked the roads in Glasgow, Kilmarnock, RWB, or mobilised hundreds of people at the drop of a hat, is it?

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

Yeah, it's not like the UAF blocked the roads in Glasgow, Kilmarnock, RWB, or mobilised hundreds of people at the drop of a hat, is it?

ah the UAF, mindlessly supported by the SWP in a vainglorious attempt to be relevent to mainstream politics.

[durhamleft]

ah the UAF, mindlessly supported by the SWP in a vainglorious attempt to be relevent to mainstream politics.

Yes, and regarding the UAF, they did something at the 2 Scotland ones mentioned, where about 10 EDL turned up, but at anything where they actually needed to confront them, they did fuck all. They are absolutely useless, and have caused proper antifascism to perish.

[777]

Yes, and regarding the UAF, they did something at the 2 Scotland ones mentioned, where about 10 EDL turned up, but at anything where they actually needed to confront them, they did fuck all. They are absolutely useless, and have caused proper antifascism to perish.

True.

The problem with the UAF is that they have no real arguments and no way of stopping or preventing Fascism.

It's mainly an excuse for self-righteous students to shout "NARZI SCUM" and have a bit of a laugh.

True anti-fascism should not just be about physical confrontation, it should involve preventative and ideological tactics.

The thing with the EDL is that they feed upon peoples worries and fears about losing their identity. The best way to alleviate those fears is not by ostracizing the misguided working class people who attend EDL demo's, but to show them their true class identity. That's not just aimed at the EDl, but also the groups that spring up against them like "Pakis4Lyfe".

Also, having a fight with an EDL group isn't going to achieve much. Many of the lads who go are going specifically for a fight. This tough guy image makes young lads who look up to them. Validating that image isn't a good idea.

The best thing I can think of is to look at the EDL website and see what areas they plan to go to, then go there weeks before they do and spread literature/propaganda and help local people set up their own resistance.

[Montag451]

Identity is the key to attract young non-student types. But you can't use symbolism,imagery and music of past decades. The left needs to create a new/modern youth subculture or at least assimilate one. Sure, punks,hippies, skinheads. These are all subcultures associated to the left, but it looks to me that in the past few decades nothing new has come up,except the skinhead shift to the left.

[Sam_b]

ah the UAF, mindlessly supported by the SWP in a vainglorious attempt to be relevent to mainstream politics.

Oh no, fear the one-line 'analysis' of Wolfie in action! How could I ever try and argue with such a valid post!


2 Scotland ones mentioned, where about 10 EDL turned up

So you have no idea about the activity that was done in Scotland, and Glasgow in particular. Nice one!

Although the whole situation will get better once the "PM ME GUIZE!" internet warrior Revleft antifa turns up in the guise of durhamleft and his three messaged members, chasing off the hundreds of EDL that flock to any location specifically to have a ruck with them. Cannae wait!

[IndependentCitizen]

Yeah, it's not like the UAF blocked the roads in Glasgow, Kilmarnock, RWB, or mobilised hundreds of people at the drop of a hat, is it?

Oh yeah, the Scottish defence league demos, with the maximum attendence of about 40?

The EDL is not the SDL, the EDL's much larger. Much more agressive, the SDL isn't much of an opposition. The EDL have the numbers to feel comfortable to attack people like they have done in the past.

[Sam_b]

Oh yeah, the Scottish defence league demos, with the maximum attendence of about 40?

I didn't know it was that little, I take it you got a better estimation from where you were on that particular demo, right?

Or would you rather hve me talk much more about the EDL, despite the fact that a significant proportion are EDL bussed up, despite having had no contact with them on the demos I've been on?

[The Grey Blur]

wow, ancient thread. and sam you know better than that don't be telling porkies uaf were telling people not to go confront the edl in glasgow, just go listen to some sermons from businessmen, clergymen and other assorted liberals. an independent group organised in glasgow made up the bulk of those who confronted the sdl (along with some swp rank-and-file). and then the swp lied about it in their paper. shameful.

[revolution inaction]

So you have no idea about the activity that was done in Scotland, and Glasgow in particular. Nice one!

i read about some activity of uaf is scotland, apparently uaf bravely opposed the edl by lying to people about where they where so that instead of confrontation the edl they would go and listen to uaf's speakers :)

[IndependentCitizen]

I didn't know it was that little, I take it you got a better estimation from where you were on that particular demo, right?

Or would you rather hve me talk much more about the EDL, despite the fact that a significant proportion are EDL bussed up, despite having had no contact with them on the demos I've been on?


Yeah...talk about the EDL, I'd rather you talk about that.

[Sam_b]

despite the fact that a significant proportion are EDL bussed up

You're pretty slow.


and sam you know better than that don't be telling porkies uaf were telling people not to go confront the edl in glasgow, just go listen to some sermons from businessmen, clergymen and other assorted liberals. an independent group organised in glasgow made up the bulk of those who confronted the sdl (along with some swp rank-and-file). and then the swp lied about it in their paper. shameful.

This is hardly true. Keep believing it all you want though champ :thumbup1:

[IndependentCitizen]

I am incredibly slow, I apologise.

[durhamleft]

Oh no, fear the one-line 'analysis' of Wolfie in action! How could I ever try and argue with such a valid post!



So you have no idea about the activity that was done in Scotland, and Glasgow in particular. Nice one!

Although the whole situation will get better once the "PM ME GUIZE!" internet warrior Revleft antifa turns up in the guise of durhamleft and his three messaged members, chasing off the hundreds of EDL that flock to any location specifically to have a ruck with them. Cannae wait!

LOL.

I have never ever made myself out to be an internet warrior, and maybe if UAF actually did something productive, other than being upper class student wank splats who shout "naaarrrrtsiiiii scum" from behind police lines, then there wouldn't be so much discontent towards their useless tactics, hence why I looked for something else, however I was pointed in the direction of groups who actually get off their arse and do something and am grateful for those who helped. You however are a grade A idiot, and the fact that you actually think Unite Against Fascism are useful shows that you are an absolute pillock, and without doubt a member of the swp.

[freepalestine]

when i liued at uk in the early 90s groups like afa,r.a,etc were real 'militant' antifash.with the rise of bnp recently where are groups like afa of old.antifa uk arent an equivalent sadly.and uaf-anl arent realy militant.fascists need to be confronted,not with non violent militants.as mention at the1st post

[durhamleft]

when i liued at uk in the early 90s groups like afa,r.a,etc were real 'militant' antifash.with the rise of bnp recently where are groups like afa of old.antifa uk arent an equivalent sadly.and uaf-anl arent realy militant.fascists need to be confronted,not with non violent militants.as mention at the1st post

Concurred.

[Sam_b]

I have never ever made myself out to be an internet warrior, and maybe if UAF actually did something productive, other than being upper class student wank splats who shout "naaarrrrtsiiiii scum" from behind police lines, then there wouldn't be so much discontent towards their useless tactics, hence why I looked for something else, however I was pointed in the direction of groups who actually get off their arse and do something and am grateful for those who helped. You however are a grade A idiot, and the fact that you actually think Unite Against Fascism are useful shows that you are an absolute pillock, and without doubt a member of the swp.

Awesome, internet hardman. Surprisingly for a member of the SP you have absolutely no argument apart from tired old rhetoric. No analysis whatsoever. This just amounts to a 'NO U' argument. Touched a nerve, perhaps? Or are you the new Radical?

[durhamleft]

Awesome, internet hardman. Surprisingly for a member of the SP you have absolutely no argument apart from tired old rhetoric. No analysis whatsoever. This just amounts to a 'NO U' argument. Touched a nerve, perhaps? Or are you the new Radical?

What argument needs to be put forward?

That the SWP regularly embarrass themselves and turn people away from Socialism?
That the SWP deems a protest by unemployed workers at the Lindsey oil refinery "racist" because some have signs 'british jobs for british workers' and as a result actually labels anyone who tries to help the workers a racist?
That the SWP storm talks between BA staff and Walsh and therefore give him an excuse not to engage in talks and as a result lead to the BA staff being absolutely furious?
That the SWP offer support not just to Hamas, or in the past the IRA ideologically, but they actually support their tactics. And of course that works really well when you come out in support of IRA tactics and a week later they blow people up in London, really gets the public on your side.

And then there's UAF. What purpose they think they serve is beyond me. They don't stop anything (bar, to their credit, red white and blue this year), they just ponce around waving placards shouting abuse behind the police- while onlookers think what a set of fucking idiots.

I wouldnt mind your shit useless party and shit useless organisation if it wasn't for the fact you actually push people away from our ideology with your typical rhetoric of "this is what i think, what i think is right, if you disagree youre a nazi". You're so up your own arses it's fucking unreal.

And then you go round calling the EDL nazis, brainflash shithead- they're not nazis. Its one thing to refer to them on here as facists, but when you go on a street with a placard saying EDL= Nazi thugs and people then see them flying the flag OF ISRAEL and the LGBT flags people just laugh at you and distrust the left. Racist or islamaphobic, but nazi, are you fucking mad?

[Sam_b]

I think you must have anger issues.

What does any of this SWP stuff actually have to do with a) validating your argument or b) to do with fighting fascism.

I'm not going to derail this, you're welcome post some substanciating evidence to everything in another thread bashing the SWP, or more mindless sectarianism, and i'll engage your paper-thin rhetoric there.

'fuck this fuck them fuck you shithead', do you kiss your mother with that mouth?

[durhamleft]

I think you must have anger issues.

What does any of this SWP stuff actually have to do with a) validating your argument or b) to do with fighting fascism.

I'm not going to derail this, you're welcome post some substanciating evidence to everything in another thread bashing the SWP, or more mindless sectarianism, and i'll engage your paper-thin rhetoric there.

'fuck this fuck them fuck you shithead', do you kiss your mother with that mouth?

The SWP's uselessness is extremely relevant, because themselves and UAF are extremely closely twined, and generally speaking the whole left holds Unite Against Fascism in contempt, except the SWP.

What it has to do with fighting fascism, is that the SWP and UAF have tried to gain something of a monopoly on anti-fascism, and they have messed it up- many lefties will talk as scathingly about unite against fascism as the bloody fascists themselves! So you wonder why there is so much desire to fight people like the EDL without being connected to the UAF, it is not because i was 'kicked out' like you agreed with before, it is because the UAF cannot do what they say they can. They don't fight fascism whatsoever.

On that note, I'm off to bed, apologies for the excessive swearing, it is somewhat engrained in my language.

take care.

[freepalestine]

In fairness to swp and similar groups,i wouldnt expect them to support the armed resistance in palestine etc,by any faction.nevermind the politics of hamas(which i am against') or plo or shinbfein.

[durhamleft]

In fairness to swp and similar groups,i wouldnt expect them to support the armed resistance in palestine etc,by any faction.nevermind the politics of hamas(which i am against') or plo or shinbfein.

The left in general supports Palestinian rights.

The difference is us in the SP, say that one can support Palestine while condemning Hamas and their tactics.

The SWP however say that we support Palestine, and as they are fighting Israel we support any tactics they use in that fight, even sending suicide bombers over to blow up innocent Israelis.

[Ele'ill]

Ahaha yes hooray- more in-fighting! More!

Edit- this was supposed to all be in capital letters but the forum wouldn't allow it.

[durhamleft]

Ahaha yes hooray- more in-fighting! More!

Edit- this was supposed to all be in capital letters but the forum wouldn't allow it.

LOL.

I always criticise how divided the left is, but then I end up doing the same myself. Bugger.

[Sam_b]

The SWP however say that we support Palestine, and as they are fighting Israel we support any tactics they use in that fight, even sending suicide bombers over to blow up innocent Israelis.

You're not putting suicide bombers on the same level as Israeli terror acts are you now?

As an aside you do realise that suicide bombing is a cause of the imperialism of Israel, right?

[durhamleft]

You're not putting suicide bombers on the same level as Israeli terror acts are you now?

As an aside you do realise that suicide bombing is a cause of the imperialism of Israel, right?

Here we go.

What I'm saying, is that the acts of terror Israel commits against Palestine are immoral. A Palestinian suicide bomber who kills 20 Israeli citizens, is equally committing a moral act. What I would argue, is that the actions of Israel do not justify the actions of the Palestinian suicide bomber.

Therefore, while I support Palestinian liberation, I do not support them blowing up Israeli civilians, or firing rockets into Israel and not giving two shits who it hits.

[Sam_b]

Sigh.

[freepalestine]

..acts of terror Israel commits against Palestine are immoral. A Palestinian bomber who kills 20 Israeli citizens, is equally committing a moral act. What I would argue, is that the actions of Israel do not justify the actions of the Palestinian bomber. Therefore, while I support Palestinian liberation, I do not support them blowing up Israeli civilians, or firing rockets into Israel and not giving two shits who it hits.its easier said.shame palstinans havnt f15's?

[freepalestine]

Ahaha yes hooray- more in-fighting! More! great to see leftwing solidarity.in my opinion sp-(militantlabour) and swp are similar and stil love criticising each other.a great example of class unity

[revolution inaction]

And then there's UAF. What purpose they think they serve is beyond me. They don't stop anything (bar, to their credit, red white and blue this year), they just ponce around waving placards shouting abuse behind the police- while onlookers think what a set of fucking idiots.
i think you may be giving them to much credit here, there where other groups involved in the campaign against the rw&b so even though uaf may have had a part in its cancellation, they are certainly not solely responsible.



its easier said.shame palstinans havnt f15's?

the problem isn't how they blow up civilians, its that they do it at all.
even if you care nothing for the Israel working class it does nothing to help the palistinian workers, it only helps organisations like hamas stay in power, and at the same time helps the ruling class of israel by helping then justify there brutal actions against the palistinians

[durhamleft]

i think you may be giving them to much credit here, there where other groups involved in the campaign against the rw&b so even though uaf may have had a part in its cancellation, they are certainly not solely responsible.




the problem isn't how they blow up civilians, its that they do it at all.
even if you care nothing for the Israel working class it does nothing to help the palistinian workers, it only helps organisations like hamas stay in power, and at the same time helps the ruling class of israel by helping then justify there brutal actions against the palistinians

Exactly

[Sam_b]

the problem isn't how they blow up civilians, its that they do it at all.

You're missing the point entirely, and this rhetoric which is lambasting the 'Palestinian suicide bombers' just as much as the state of Israel is absolutely shameful. Do you think there would be a need to resort to the tactic of suicide bombing, misguided or not, if a brutal policy of ethnic cleansing wasn't going on here? And perhaps, you know, quite a significant proportion of Palestinian workers actually want Hamas: they are Hamas.

Funnily enough I don't see posts attacking the Algerians during their independence struggle for 'suicide bombing'. But hey, its easier said than done from sitting in our houses in front of a computer, eh?

[revolution inaction]

You're missing the point entirely, and this rhetoric which is lambasting the 'Palestinian suicide bombers' just as much as the state of Israel is absolutely shameful. Do you think there would be a need to resort to the tactic of suicide bombing, misguided or not, if a brutal policy of ethnic cleansing wasn't going on here? And perhaps, you know, quite a significant proportion of Palestinian workers actually want Hamas: they are Hamas.

this equation of palestinian people with hamas or a palestinian state is completely reactionary and has nothing to do with communist politics.
The tactic of suicide bombing has nothing to do with what the workers need.



Funnily enough I don't see posts attacking the Algerians during their independence struggle for 'suicide bombing'. But hey, its easier said than done from sitting in our houses in front of a computer, eh?

i haven't condemned them for suicide bombing, although i think it is a stupid thing to do, i condemned them for attacking the working class and defended the interests of the bourgeois.
I am opposed to all national liberation movemnts, including the Algerian one.

[durhamleft]

You're missing the point entirely, and this rhetoric which is lambasting the 'Palestinian suicide bombers' just as much as the state of Israel is absolutely shameful. Do you think there would be a need to resort to the tactic of suicide bombing, misguided or not, if a brutal policy of ethnic cleansing wasn't going on here? And perhaps, you know, quite a significant proportion of Palestinian workers actually want Hamas: they are Hamas.

Funnily enough I don't see posts attacking the Algerians during their independence struggle for 'suicide bombing'. But hey, its easier said than done from sitting in our houses in front of a computer, eh?

Hey fuckhead, are the Palestinians in any way helping their cause by using suicide bombers to attack Israeli civillians or are they maybe doing nothing to damage the State of Israel and are giving the Israelis an excuse to say at a later date 'we are acting to defend our people'.

[IndependentCitizen]

You two are examples of why socialism would never be achieved.

Constantly bickering like children, it's actually pathetic. Whilst there's room for debate, you two are not debating. It's constantly attacking each other, and that's no sign of unity.

Good luck fighting fascists after you've fought each other.

[Sam_b]

this equation of palestinian people with hamas or a palestinian state is completely reactionary and has nothing to do with communist politics.

Probably much worse to suggest there's some sort of parallel with the IDF and Palestinian resistance.


I am opposed to all national liberation movemnts, including the Algerian one

How are you currently opposed to something that happened beore you were born?


Hey fuckhead

Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?


are the Palestinians in any way helping their cause by using suicide bombers to attack Israeli civillians or are they maybe doing nothing to damage the State of Israel and are giving the Israelis an excuse to say at a later date 'we are acting to defend our people'.

You have a poor grasp of grammar. Anyhow, who here was suggesting that suicide bombing was an effective tactic? All I was saying is that you need to recognise the social and political causes that bring around this tactic, which I don't think you do. It's not supportable, but it is understandable, and will be perpetuated by the IDF's operation of ethnic cleansing.


are giving the Israelis an excuse to say at a later date 'we are acting to defend our people'

This tactic certainly isn't contemporary, and would only be used as an excuse now after decades of desperation by the Palestinian people leading up to it. I don't think you understand the circumstances that lead to suicide bombing, and instead have to band around flames because in reality you have no argument to make. Unless calling people 'fuckhead' is "engrained in your language", which I somehow doubt.

[Sam_b]

You two are examples of why socialism would never be achieved.

Constantly bickering like children, it's actually pathetic. Whilst there's room for debate, you two are not debating. It's constantly attacking each other, and that's no sign of unity.

Get off your pedestal. 'Unity' amongst left groups is not some sort of by-word for a 'good thing': it is a strategic manoevre. You can whine all you want about this hashed-up idea of left unity without understanding at all its concept, but that doesn't mean you can take a high and mighty line which actually waters down many important political strategies and actually sets the development of the class back.

Cliff's notes: I really couldn't care less for your whining on unity.

[Hit The North]

Here we go.

What I'm saying, is that the acts of terror Israel commits against Palestine are immoral. A Palestinian suicide bomber who kills 20 Israeli citizens, is equally committing a moral act. What I would argue, is that the actions of Israel do not justify the actions of the Palestinian suicide bomber.

Therefore, while I support Palestinian liberation, I do not support them blowing up Israeli civilians, or firing rockets into Israel and not giving two shits who it hits.

So you only support the Palestinian liberation in the abstract, do you? Fat lot of good that is.

In fact, because you presumably are also against the vicious operations of the IDF, their shooting, bombing and bulldozing of Palestinian communities, this would put you in an essentially absentionist position where you cover your ears to both sides' claims and merely demand they stop the violence. This doesn't make you a supporter of Palestinian liberation, it makes you essentially a pacifist.

Or do you urge another strategy for the Palestinians? Perhaps Hamas should confront the Israeli state in open warfare? Honourable like John Wayne! Or perhaps the Palestinian workers should meet the tanks, the bulldozers, the helicopters with non-violent protest? After all, it's not like the IDF has a reputation for gunning down unarmed civilians is it? Oh, wait...!

Whilst you and your comrades in the SP do not approve of the use of suicide bombing, the cold fact is that it's not up to you, is it?


The SWP however say that we support Palestine, and as they are fighting Israel we support any tactics they use in that fight, even sending suicide bombers over to blow up innocent Israelis. The SWP holds its usual position of unconditional but critical support. This means that the party is free to criticise strategy and tactics (including suicide bombing; including the largely symbolic and ritualistic firing off of missiles) but not in a position to withhold support if the struggle takes on different tactics. In other words, unlike the mealy-mouthed, moralistic dissemblers in the SP, the SWP argues that the oppressed have the right to fight against their oppression in any way they see fit.

Apparently you think its about balancing some moral scales of justice between the acts of the aggressor and the defensive struggle of the victim of that aggression.

[revolution inaction]

Probably much worse to suggest there's some sort of parallel with the IDF and Palestinian resistance.

i'm not against palestinians resisting thing like land seizures, bulldozing of homes, destruction of infrastructure, violence against people organise in unions, opresion of gays and lesbians.
but blowing up random Israelis is not resistance and only serves the interests of the ruling class.




How are you currently opposed to something that happened beore you were born?



well i could have written that more clearly, i meant i would not support them, but why did you ask abut Algerians any why.
And how are you currently supporting hamas, do you send them money or weapons?

[Sam_b]

i'm not against palestinians resisting thing like land seizures, bulldozing of homes, destruction of infrastructure, violence against people organise in unions, opresion of gays and lesbians.
but blowing up random Israelis is not resistance and only serves the interests of the ruling class.


I agree. That doesn't, however, stop me frrom aknowledging the material conditions which makes this arise.


but why did you ask abut Algerians any why.

I would have thought this to be obvious, but Algerian militants are widely accredited with employing the tactic of suicide bombing.


And how are you currently supporting hamas, do you send them money or weapons?

Are you being deliberately dense? Ps, see Bob's post in this thread. Funnily enough, he's spot on on all fronts.

[NickGriffin]

I'd join any group opposing the scum of the EDL but I don't like your adjective "militant". I'm more of a reserved activist

[NickGriffin]

BTW, my nick is deliberately designed to rub it in the faces of BNP scum