Implicit Homophobia and Transphobia

[Queercommie Girl]

To all LGBT forummers, have you ever experienced implicit homophobia/transphobia either here on RevLeft or anywhere else?

What I mean by implicit homophobia/transphobia is what the Chinese would call "Yang-feng Yin-wei" i.e. "supportive on the surface, but antagonistic underneath". Implicit homophobes and transphobes would never directly say anything homophobic or transphobic, but they would do things which make you uncomfortable and would show that they are intrinsically homophobic/transphobic. But as a Chinese saying states: "human hearts are separated by walls of flesh", you are never entirely sure whether or not the person is being homophobic/transphobic, or perhaps you are just been overly suspicious, since there is no clear evidence either way.

I think the legal battles for LGBT rights are actually relatively easy to fight compared with what is to follow: cultural and social battles. When can LGBT people be completely accepted within society in general? It won't be easy, not even within the leftist camp, since there are so many bigots who insist on a rigid and mechanistic view of "gender norms" and "courtship protocols".

I am a gender rebel and I will continue to be a gender rebel. I will violate and sabotage the "gender norms" and "courtship protocols" some people hold so dear. The only way to stop me would be over my dead body.

[Invincible Summer]

I think lots of people are implicitly homo/transphobic, what with the "I don't mind gay/trans people so long as they don't rub their lifestyle in my face" or something ridiculous.

[Adi Shankara]

I think lots of people are implicitly homo/transphobic, what with the "I don't mind gay/trans people so long as they don't rub their lifestyle in my face" or something ridiculous.

San Francisco (where I currently live) isn't really like that; some people say exposure just increases intolerance, but I'd like to think differently, as there is even a pre-school down the street where one of the teachers is a homosexual, and most mainstream bigots would highly object to a gay man watching their children--but here in SF, no one even bats an eyelash.

Frankly, I love that openess.

[Invincible Summer]

I live in Vancouver where the Pride Parade is supposedly one of the biggest in Canada, and it's supposedly pretty "tolerant."

But "tolerance" in itself suggests acceptance for the sake of acceptance, or due to social pressure, not "true" acceptance. Not that you can force everyone to be truly accepting of everything, but I think you'll get what I'm saying.

However, a recent report said that Vancouver also has one of the highest gay-bashing and hate-crime rates in Canada, despite our image of being one of the most open and diverse cities in the country.

Although lots of people - as a group - seem to welcome the Pride Parade and whatnot, I can't help but wonder if it's just the tokenistic display of the queer community that they're drawn to, and if they would be upset if someone was actually "acting really gay" in front of them in their personal lives

[Adi Shankara]

I live in Vancouver where the Pride Parade is supposedly one of the biggest in Canada, and it's supposedly pretty "tolerant."

But "tolerance" in itself suggests acceptance for the sake of acceptance, or due to social pressure, not "true" acceptance. Not that you can force everyone to be truly accepting of everything, but I think you'll get what I'm saying.

However, a recent report said that Vancouver also has one of the highest gay-bashing and hate-crime rates in Canada, despite our image of being one of the most open and diverse cities in the country.

Although lots of people - as a group - seem to welcome the Pride Parade and whatnot, I can't help but wonder if it's just the tokenistic display of the queer community that they're drawn to, and if they would be upset if someone was actually "acting really gay" in front of them in their personal lives

I still think SF is different though; although I have never been to Vancouver, I'll imagine that SF is probably more gay friendly since much of this city was built on the gay rights movement, and that gays have been well established here since the 1940's--that, and many of our city supervisors are gay (Bevan Dufty, Tom Ammiano, etc.)

and I think most of the homosexuality tolerance is geniune--very rarely do you see any outright homophobia, and when it is there, it's usually a non-local or tourist who makes everyone uncomfortable with it--gays are as San Franciscan as 2500 dollar/mo apartments and burritos slathered in chile sauce and chicken-cheese!

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

To all LGBT forummers, have you ever experienced implicit homophobia/transphobia either here on RevLeft or anywhere else?

What I mean by implicit homophobia/transphobia is what the Chinese would call "Yang-feng Yin-wei" i.e. "supportive on the surface, but antagonistic underneath". Implicit homophobes and transphobes would never directly say anything homophobic or transphobic, but they would do things which make you uncomfortable and would show that they are intrinsically homophobic/transphobic. But as a Chinese saying states: "human hearts are separated by walls of flesh", you are never entirely sure whether or not the person is being homophobic/transphobic, or perhaps you are just been overly suspicious, since there is no clear evidence either way.

I think the legal battles for LGBT rights are actually relatively easy to fight compared with what is to follow: cultural and social battles. When can LGBT people be completely accepted within society in general? It won't be easy, not even within the leftist camp, since there are so many bigots who insist on a rigid and mechanistic view of "gender norms" and "courtship protocols".

I am a gender rebel and I will continue to be a gender rebel. I will violate and sabotage the "gender norms" and "courtship protocols" some people hold so dear. The only way to stop me would be over my dead body.

You can find transphobia being rampant even within portions of the LGB part of the LGBT movement. A cisgender lesbian called me a man at Chicago's Pride Parade yesterday. I snapped on her and *****ed her out. But the anti-trans sentiment is all too common, even in the LGB circles.
Within the left I've had some issues with transphobia, but keep in mind that it's a lot less for me as I'm not read as much as some are.

[Subcomandante Marcos.]

your hot so no one fucks with you :)

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

your hot so no one fucks with you :)
Occasionally, someone reads me and fucks with me. It doesn't happen often though.

[Queercommie Girl]

You can find transphobia being rampant even within portions of the LGB part of the LGBT movement. A cisgender lesbian called me a man at Chicago's Pride Parade yesterday. I snapped on her and *****ed her out. But the anti-trans sentiment is all too common, even in the LGB circles.
Within the left I've had some issues with transphobia, but keep in mind that it's a lot less for me as I'm not read as much as some are.

I'm aware of LGB transphobia, which is more widespread in the West. (Whereas in countries like Iran it is actually the other way around)

But I think it is to a significant extent due to how well you can pass as a woman. What I mean is there are two types of transphobia: there is the kind of "transphobia" which is simply that people misunderstand you, but they don't really mean any harm, and there is the kind of transphobia which implies that actual harm is intended, leading up to murder in the most extreme cases.

The first type is prejudice rather than outright transphobia. I think a lot of "LGB transphobia" is like that, whereas outside the LGBT community transphobia tends to be more serious.

[Subcomandante Marcos.]

actually they see sex change surgery as a cure for being gay, with gay men often pressured or forced into it.

fuck the Iranian regime, fucking religeous zealot wankers, you know how many communists they tortured, how dare you give out pro iranian ragtag bullshit, when revolutionaries were killed by the regime

[Foldered]

I live in Vancouver where the Pride Parade is supposedly one of the biggest in Canada, and it's supposedly pretty "tolerant."
...
However, a recent report said that Vancouver also has one of the highest gay-bashing and hate-crime rates in Canada, despite our image of being one of the most open and diverse cities in the country.
Liberals- when they get drunk, they become conservatives.

And yes, San Fransisco is more gay than Vancouver, from what I know. To be fair though, any metro city in Canada is inherently relatively tolerant. Try living in more Northern areas; it can be bad.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

There is homophobia in Vancouver, but I'd also suggest that the pro-gay culture makes people more inclined to report incidents of it. Vancouver's parade isn't something I've experienced, but I'm not sure it's just a tokenish display. I think it's Davie Street where the fire hydrants are pink or something, flags are everywhere, sex shops, etc. It's just a big gay stereotype, but I guess that's the point. I don't know.

I don't oppose people expressing themselves, but I actually have issues with the stereotyping gay people seem to perpetuate on themselves. I can't help but think the gay people who don't like rainbows, pink, speaking dramatically, etc, are hiding somewhere angry over how often people assume things about them that are untrue. I don't think most people conform to the stereotypes but I really don't know.

Transphobia is partially due to ignorance, I suspect. I'll admit even I get confused sometimes. You've got the feminists telling you gender is a social construction. Alright, sure. Then someone says they have the wrong anatomy. No problem. Where I get confused is where men dress feminine or live as "women" but don't feel the need to change their anatomy. So they are living the gender role which I was previously led to believe is constructed.

That isn't phobia for me because I don't get intimidated by my own ignorance. But that's not true of many people.

[Invincible Summer]

I think it's Davie Street where the fire hydrants are pink or something, flags are everywhere, sex shops, etc. It's just a big gay stereotype, but I guess that's the point. I don't know.

I don't oppose people expressing themselves, but I actually have issues with the stereotyping gay people seem to perpetuate on themselves. I can't help but think the gay people who don't like rainbows, pink, speaking dramatically, etc, are hiding somewhere angry over how often people assume things about them that are untrue. I don't think most people conform to the stereotypes but I really don't know.

Yeah Davie St. has pink fire hydrants and bus stops, lots of "nicer" sex shops compared to the seedy ones on Granville.

I sometimes feel like the whole "gay culture" that is created (at least in Vancouver) just reflects and perpetuates stereotypes. I only have a few friends in the LGBT community, and they're not too into it so I'm not sure how they feel about perpetuating stereotypes. But as an outside observer I am concerned that the image which the queer community are projecting just confirms all the stereotypes which people sometimes use against the queer community: flamboyant, fashionable, over-sexed, trendy, etc.


Transphobia is partially due to ignorance, I suspect. I'll admit even I get confused sometimes. You've got the feminists telling you gender is a social construction. Alright, sure. Then someone says they have the wrong anatomy. No problem. Where I get confused is where men dress feminine or live as "women" but don't feel the need to change their anatomy. So they are living the gender role which I was previously led to believe is constructed.


I would like to hear from a trans user on this (Esperanza I suppose), very interesting question.

[Wolf Larson]

"gays are as San Franciscan as 2500 dollar/mo apartments and burritos slathered in chile sauce and chicken-cheese!"

Can you say gentrification. On a different note the gay community has been dropping the ball so far as enacting working class friendly policies in SF. I had to move across teh bridge to Oakland as soon as my Tenderloin studio apartment went up to $1200 a month. The thing was 400 sq ft.

Fuck San Fransisco. It's a capitalists paradise. A landlords paradise. Shop shop shop interest rent buy buy debt. It died in the 1990's.

[CountryKid]

Er, No.

I have never met anyone that was implicit about it. People here are honest and straightforward.

[counterblast]

I still think SF is different though; although I have never been to Vancouver, I'll imagine that SF is probably more gay friendly since much of this city was built on the gay rights movement, and that gays have been well established here since the 1940's--that, and many of our city supervisors are gay (Bevan Dufty, Tom Ammiano, etc.)

and I think most of the homosexuality tolerance is geniune--very rarely do you see any outright homophobia, and when it is there, it's usually a non-local or tourist who makes everyone uncomfortable with it--gays are as San Franciscan as 2500 dollar/mo apartments and burritos slathered in chile sauce and chicken-cheese!


The reason why there are no gay-bashings in San Francisco, isn't because its a gay utopia. Its because its a gentrified hell hole, where only rich gays can afford to live in.

(And we all know that its rarely, if ever, the rich gays who are beaten by police or murdered by homophobes.)

All the homeless queer youth have been removed by Gavin Newsom, the queers of color have been taxed out of SF into Oakland, and the trans people have been alienated by SF's cis gay male culture.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I'm aware of LGB transphobia, which is more widespread in the West. (Whereas in countries like Iran it is actually the other way around)

But I think it is to a significant extent due to how well you can pass as a woman. What I mean is there are two types of transphobia: there is the kind of "transphobia" which is simply that people misunderstand you, but they don't really mean any harm, and there is the kind of transphobia which implies that actual harm is intended, leading up to murder in the most extreme cases.

The first type is prejudice rather than outright transphobia. I think a lot of "LGB transphobia" is like that, whereas outside the LGBT community transphobia tends to be more serious.

I've dealt with both. and you have a point to some extent on that. Although I have it easy, I don't often get read. But taking public transit used to be really difficult. I would always have to deal with undereducated loudmouth kids sitting in the very back yelling things like: "I'll kill that faggot" and "It's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve"
Of course, their grammar was more poorly done.

That first type is just as bad for girls like me instead of being in the outrageous homocide statistic, it pushes some of us towards the outrageously, disporportionally large suicide statistic. I was reading a while back that over 50% of the trans population makes an attempt on their own life before age 18. I am of that statistic since I made several attempts back when I was in highschool. The point I'm trying to get to is that inspite of these statistics being pretty known within the entire LGBT community (even if not the specific numbers) and inspite of the fact that it's a very known sensitive subject, they still say these things and insist that I'm "a man".

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Yeah Davie St. has pink fire hydrants and bus stops, lots of "nicer" sex shops compared to the seedy ones on Granville.

I sometimes feel like the whole "gay culture" that is created (at least in Vancouver) just reflects and perpetuates stereotypes. I only have a few friends in the LGBT community, and they're not too into it so I'm not sure how they feel about perpetuating stereotypes. But as an outside observer I am concerned that the image which the queer community are projecting just confirms all the stereotypes which people sometimes use against the queer community: flamboyant, fashionable, over-sexed, trendy, etc.
Well most of the outfits I wear are pink based, so the pink hydrants is not going to get complaints from me.
As for those stereotypes, I've met some anarchists that fit those. My response to those stereotypes is not whether the queer and trans community should avoid fitting them or not, but turning to those who use those stereotypes against the queer/LGBT community and say "and the problem with that is?" or "Someone's getting envious."



I would like to hear from a trans user on this (Esperanza I suppose), very interesting question.

If you are talking about the following quote:

Transphobia is partially due to ignorance, I suspect. I'll admit even I get confused sometimes. You've got the feminists telling you gender is a social construction. Alright, sure. Then someone says they have the wrong anatomy. No problem. Where I get confused is where men dress feminine or live as "women" but don't feel the need to change their anatomy. So they are living the gender role which I was previously led to believe is constructed.
Then I'd say you might get a better answer from someone who fits under that part of the Trans umbrella (a no-ho non-op) because I don't feel that I fit into that portion of the trans umbrella. I'm a transsexual who plans on having the op when I can afford it and am already on hormones and has been trying to get a hold of medical grade silicone.

However, my opinion is that if someone wants to express themselves in a way that won't harm others, who am I, or anyone, to stop them.

[Queercommie Girl]

actually they see sex change surgery as a cure for being gay, with gay men often pressured or forced into it.

fuck the Iranian regime, fucking religeous zealot wankers, you know how many communists they tortured, how dare you give out pro iranian ragtag bullshit, when revolutionaries were killed by the regime

I do not support the Islamic Iranian regime, nor did I ever state that I support it in this thread. I was not being pro-Iranian, I was merely pointing out the objective fact that in Iran transgenderism is more acceptable than homosexuality, which is the opposite to how it's like in the West.

Not everyone who undergoes sex change in Iran are gays forced into it, some are genuinely transgendered, and like it or not, Iran offered free sex change operations before most Western capitalist countries.

You need to control your temper and cut out your ad hominem comments.

[Adi Shankara]

All the homeless queer youth have been removed by Gavin Newsom, the queers of color have been taxed out of SF into Oakland, and the trans people have been alienated by SF's cis gay male culture.

Actually, about the "queers of color", there is ample evidence that, ironic considering their own predicament, many homosexuals can be just as racist as the general population:


A 2009 survey by the Human Rights Campaign Foundation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Rights_Campaign) in the United States found that supermajorities of surveyed LGBT people of color believed that there was as much racism in the LGBT community as the general population. The breakdown varied by race, however, as they described how they were treated by white LGBTs. African Americans, Latinos, and Mixed-race (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-race) people feel most that they are "celebrated, because diversity is a good thing", while Asian Americans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_American) and Pacific Islanders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Islanders) report more being harassed, excluded, and ignored. Gay and bisexual men of color universally complained about being sexualized and fetishized, for African Americans and Latinos as "trophies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophy_wife)", and Asian Pacific Islanders as subservient (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypes_of_East_Asians_in_the_United_States).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_LGBT_community#cite_note-hrc-1) it shows bigotry is pretty widespread across even sexualities. reminds me of a gay friend I have who says she gets judged on how she looks all the time because she's from Asia. people see her, they at first think she's mexican and our interested, but when she tells them her name, they immediately leave or make an excuse to leave. I showed her this survey quite a bit ago, and she said that, even though it applied to men, it's absolutely true, and she has really low self esteem now for being not quite asian, but now quite anything else either :(

[Il Medico]

many homosexuals can be just as racist as the general population:

I don't see why this would be a surprise. The LGBT community is no less likely to be racist or sexist, or what not than any other group. Same goes for racial minorities when it comes to homophobia. Discrimination isn't just some endemic of straight white males, it effects everyone and needs to be fought everywhere.

[Adi Shankara]

I don't see why this would be a surprise. The LGBT community is no less likely to be racist or sexist, or what not than any other group. Same goes for racial minorities when it comes to homophobia. Discrimination isn't just some endemic of straight white males, it effects everyone and needs to be fought everywhere.

I know--it's just that, a few on the left have trouble seeing in black and white, myself included. sometimes things are Grey.

I guess it's just surprising to see one group that is historically targeted to go around and do it right to someone else different from them.

[Robocommie]

I know--it's just that, a few on the left have trouble seeing in black and white, myself included. sometimes things are Grey.

I guess it's just surprising to see one group that is historically targeted to go around and do it right to someone else different from them.

That's generally because of the multiplicity of identities we each belong to, as well as the way people buy into prejudices of the ruling class. White gay men are still white, and therefore just as vulnerable to the same bigotries and prejudices as other whites. A lot of black folks even, can be prejudiced against black folks in general or just have a very low self-esteem because even they are programmed to accept the low social image of African-Americans. That's true of all colonized groups, actually.

[HEAD ICE]

I don't find it shocking that LGBTs are as racist as the general population. After Prop 8 passed I heard and read so much racist shit I thought I went back a 100 years and listened to the caveman grunts at a lynching.

[HEAD ICE]

It is a damn shame when we see an oppressed minority succumb to oppressor bigotry. Racism, sexism, nationalism, anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, xenophobia and homophobia all serve the same function - to divide our class. To denounce one type of bigotry while holding bigoted views of another group reinforces all bigotry.

[Queercommie Girl]

actually they see sex change surgery as a cure for being gay, with gay men often pressured or forced into it.

fuck the Iranian regime, fucking religeous zealot wankers, you know how many communists they tortured, how dare you give out pro iranian ragtag bullshit, when revolutionaries were killed by the regime

Actually although I certainly oppose the Iranian theocratic regime, I'd say I oppose Western imperialism even more so. At least objectively Islamic Iran is acting as a counter-weight to American geo-political interests in Asia.

Yes, Islamic Iran killed communists, but Uncle Sam killed even more communists. Che Guvera was murdered by the CIA.

My reply to you is "fuck the Iranian regime, but fuck the US regime even more".

[Queercommie Girl]

I don't see why this would be a surprise. The LGBT community is no less likely to be racist or sexist, or what not than any other group. Same goes for racial minorities when it comes to homophobia. Discrimination isn't just some endemic of straight white males, it effects everyone and needs to be fought everywhere.

There is an effect among human populations that can be described as "the strong bullies the weak, and the weak bullies the even weaker". I believe this has a role to play in racism among LGBT people, LGB transphobia, and homophobia among racial minorities. In all of these cases a group that is being significantly discriminated against transfers some of the social pressure against them to an even weaker group/group with even lower social status.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Thinking that there is no racism in the LGBT community is ridiculous.

Being gay doesn't mean you can't be a racist. You don't inherit some liberal politics from being born gay or being born into a minority group.

There are racist gays, homophobic atheists, etc.

[redSHARP]

that keeps us down and even the LGBT community is divided, some gays try to be masculine and beat down the "flamboyant" gays. politicians, the police, even us, are constantly dividing the oppressed in order to further their own agenda.

[Queercommie Girl]

that keeps us down and even the LGBT community is divided, some gays try to be masculine and beat down the "flamboyant" gays. politicians, the police, even us, are constantly dividing the oppressed in order to further their own agenda.

Which is why socialists must reject social darwinism and the tendency for "the strong the bully the weak, and the weak to bully the even weaker".

We must do the honourable thing and make a firm stand against the strong and powerful oppressors that exist in our world.

Only cowards pick on the weak, the truly courageous dares to stand up to the strong. This is something even kids understand, but many people cannot put it into application in reality.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I don't find it shocking that LGBTs are as racist as the general population. After Prop 8 passed I heard and read so much racist shit I thought I went back a 100 years and listened to the caveman grunts at a lynching.

You say that as if people of color who are LGBT aren't of any significance. The stonewall riots in june of 1969 were the most major of the LGBTQ movement's events in the US history and that was started primarily by hispanic and black transwomen. I'm a hispanic transwoman and most of my friends in the LGBT movement are people of color. One of my greatest heroines is Sylvia Rivera who was one of the stonewall girls.
Yes, in certain portions of the LGBT movement you get these groups of afluent white gays and lesbians that have racist tendencies. But if you think for a second that they are the LGBTQ community, jajaja! Think again because as Sylvia Rivera once said; "The ***** on the bumper is back!"

[Queercommie Girl]

I've dealt with both. and you have a point to some extent on that. Although I have it easy, I don't often get read. But taking public transit used to be really difficult. I would always have to deal with undereducated loudmouth kids sitting in the very back yelling things like: "I'll kill that faggot" and "It's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve"
Of course, their grammar was more poorly done.

That first type is just as bad for girls like me instead of being in the outrageous homocide statistic, it pushes some of us towards the outrageously, disporportionally large suicide statistic. I was reading a while back that over 50% of the trans population makes an attempt on their own life before age 18. I am of that statistic since I made several attempts back when I was in highschool. The point I'm trying to get to is that inspite of these statistics being pretty known within the entire LGBT community (even if not the specific numbers) and inspite of the fact that it's a very known sensitive subject, they still say these things and insist that I'm "a man".

I see your point. I was just saying that there is a fundamental distinction between these two types of transphobia.

Sometimes when I think about the transgendered movement, I feel quite frustrated. There is still so much to be done, even among people who are supposed to be "progressive" and "socialist". Do you have any good ideas about the direction the trans movement should go in in the future? I feel there lacks any kind of general theoretical narrative and strategic-level plans in the entire movement.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I see your point. I was just saying that there is a fundamental distinction between these two types of transphobia.
Well there are many gay bars and lesbian bars that will refuse to let any transperson that they read into the bar. The lesbian bars here in Milwaukee are really nice to me. I have heard horror stories from Green Bay about that. Chicago I had a 50/50 reaction from the lesbian community.


Sometimes when I think about the transgendered movement, I feel quite frustrated. There is still so much to be done, even among people who are supposed to be "progressive" and "socialist". Do you have any good ideas about the direction the trans movement should go in in the future? I feel there lacks any kind of general theoretical narrative and strategic-level plans in the entire movement.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing some hate-crimes legislation. I'd like to see more positive (non-villianizing, non-victimizing, non-fetishizing) images of trans folks in the media. I want to see Employment Non Discrimination Act (ENDA) make it back into congress and make it go through the process fully and become a national trans inclusive law. I want universal healthcare that is trans inclusive.
Ideally I feel like breaking the norms, hierarchies, gender-binary, patriarchy and all around breaking capitalism would be the best. However it will be a while before my idealism is realistic.

[Queercommie Girl]

Well there are many gay bars and lesbian bars that will refuse to let any transperson that they read into the bar. The lesbian bars here in Milwaukee are really nice to me. I have heard horror stories from Green Bay about that. Chicago I had a 50/50 reaction from the lesbian community.


Well that is quite bad, I agree.



I personally wouldn't mind seeing some hate-crimes legislation. I'd like to see more positive (non-villianizing, non-victimizing, non-fetishizing) images of trans folks in the media. I want to see Employment Non Discrimination Act (ENDA) make it back into congress and make it go through the process fully and become a national trans inclusive law. I want universal healthcare that is trans inclusive.

Ideally I feel like breaking the norms, hierarchies, gender-binary, patriarchy and all around breaking capitalism would be the best. However it will be a while before my idealism is realistic.


I basically agree but to achieve these things people really need to take collective action, rather than just hoping for them on an individual basis.

[Outinleftfield]

Transphobia is partially due to ignorance, I suspect. I'll admit even I get confused sometimes. You've got the feminists telling you gender is a social construction. Alright, sure. Then someone says they have the wrong anatomy. No problem. Where I get confused is where men dress feminine or live as "women" but don't feel the need to change their anatomy. So they are living the gender role which I was previously led to believe is constructed.

That isn't phobia for me because I don't get intimidated by my own ignorance. But that's not true of many people.

Just because its a social construction doesn't mean its not real for the people who internalized it over the years. The fact that people bother to get sexual reassignment surgery but not racial reassignment or height reassignment shows just how much society emphasizes "gender" as part of a person's identity. If society didn't attach any expectations at all to gender there wouldn't be many sex change operations. Occasionally you might get someone who would do it but it would be less frequent and personality wouldn't have that much of a correlation(i.e. you'd get people whod be defined as masculine in our society(not in the hypothetical society since the hypothetical society wouldn't have roles at all) but who decide they want a female body).

Studies do show brain differences. What I think happens is someone is predisposed towards a personality type that is closer to what society defines as how the opposite sex should be. As a young child they notice that people of the opposite sex are more like them so they internalize the norms that are being taught to the opposite sex more than their own and come to identify as that gender and to internalize its roles, including the constructed role that "men" are supposed to have certain parts and a certain appearance and "women" are supposed to have certain parts and appearance.

If you think about it its a completely socially constructed norm that men are supposed to have certain bodies and women are supposed to have certain bodies. Some opposite gender identified people might not internalize this as much as others and so feel no need to change their body but still internalize the dressing norms some even more than your average member of that gender and that's why some transgendered people feel no need to go under the knife.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Just because its a social construction doesn't mean its not real for the people who internalized it over the years. The fact that people bother to get sexual reassignment surgery but not racial reassignment or height reassignment shows just how much society emphasizes "gender" as part of a person's identity. If society didn't attach any expectations at all to gender there wouldn't be many sex change operations. Occasionally you might get someone who would do it but it would be less frequent and personality wouldn't have that much of a correlation(i.e. you'd get people whod be defined as masculine in our society(not in the hypothetical society since the hypothetical society wouldn't have roles at all) but who decide they want a female body).
I did not internalize some external concept. I've always hated what was down there and I would actually punch myself down there before I even understood why just because I hated it so much.


Studies do show brain differences. What I think happens is someone is predisposed towards a personality type that is closer to what society defines as how the opposite sex should be. As a young child they notice that people of the opposite sex are more like them so they internalize the norms that are being taught to the opposite sex more than their own and come to identify as that gender and to internalize its roles, including the constructed role that "men" are supposed to have certain parts and a certain appearance and "women" are supposed to have certain parts and appearance.
All fetuses are essentially female and then some developed into males. Well some of us develop physically but not mentally. This is while still in the womb. A penis is basically an overly developed clitorous.


If you think about it its a completely socially constructed norm that men are supposed to have certain bodies and women are supposed to have certain bodies. Some opposite gender identified people might not internalize this as much as others and so feel no need to change their body but still internalize the dressing norms some even more than your average member of that gender and that's why some transgendered people feel no need to go under the knife.
I cannot speak on this seeing as I don't know what it feels like to actually like the type of parts down there seeing as how tempting a DIY orchie sounds to me and how badly I wish I could invert it myself.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I basically agree but to achieve these things people really need to take collective action, rather than just hoping for them on an individual basis.

I expressed my answer to the question. I think the collective action is not going to be easy as the TG/TS community is very much divided and we'd almost all have a completely unique answer to that question. We all come from such different backgrounds, and have our own internal dramas with eachother (and OMG do we go off on eachother.)

[Adi Shankara]

All fetuses are essentially female and then some developed into males. Well some of us develop physically but not mentally. This is while still in the womb. A penis is basically an overly developed clitorous.

sorry, but this isn't true. while the penis and clitoris are both sexual body parts, the penis has a reproductive function, whereas the clitoris does not. The penis does provide pleasure yes, but it's necessary for human mating. a clitoris, while helpful, is not needed to reproduce.

[Queercommie Girl]

I expressed my answer to the question. I think the collective action is not going to be easy as the TG/TS community is very much divided and we'd almost all have a completely unique answer to that question. We all come from such different backgrounds, and have our own internal dramas with eachother (and OMG do we go off on eachother.)

It's not easy, but trans people need to work towards it.

Nothing is automatically "easy", people need to work for things. "Human rights" can't be taken for granted.

Without unity, there is no struggle. Perhaps trans people need to collect together in some serious campaigning rather than just constantly feel bad about themselves.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

sorry, but this isn't true. while the penis and clitoris are both sexual body parts, the penis has a reproductive function, whereas the clitoris does not. The penis does provide pleasure yes, but it's necessary for human mating. a clitoris, while helpful, is not needed to reproduce.

That comes with the [developing into a penis] part.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

It's not easy, but trans people need to work towards it.

Nothing is automatically "easy", people need to work for things. "Human rights" can't be taken for granted.

Without unity, there is no struggle. Perhaps trans people need to collect together in some serious campaigning rather than just constantly feel bad about themselves.


Have you ever been in a room when a bunch of us TSs are together? I've never seen so much drama going on at once. But I guess I fit right in for once. :)

[Queercommie Girl]

Have you ever been in a room when a bunch of us TSs are together? I've never seen so much drama going on at once. But I guess I fit right in for once. :)

I was being very serious. As I said many times before, LGBT issues are not a joke for me. It's not "fun". It's a matter of life and death. It's serious politics.