Is Spain Socialist

[JAH23]

To what extent is Spain a Socialist country? Would it be classified as another European welfare capitalist state, or is it more? What rights do workers have that other workers in other countries do not? Any info would be great.

[Nolan]

Spain is in every way capitalist. What are you getting at?

[JAH23]

Ive just heard so much that "they are socialist", even from trusted sources.

[Chimurenga.]

Monarchy and Social Democracy. Nothing more.

[Q]

Maybe you're mixed up with the Spanish civil war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War)? In which case you're about 80 years late :p

[JAH23]

Well alright then. Better than the US, though.

[Q]

Well alright then. Better than the US, though.

Spain is better in the sense it has a much stronger workers movement. In a governmental sense it only just lags behind on the US in attacks on the working class, cuts cuts cuts, comparing the two to determine which state is better is pretty irrelevant.

[JAH23]

let's say i travel to spain, could i expect a more prominent leftist attitude and sympathies among the people?

[Fietsketting]

Maybe you're mixed up with the Spanish civil war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War)? In which case you're about 80 years late :p

Don't you just hate it when you miss out on events? :crying:

[JAH23]

thats where im coming from. spain has a good leftist history. wouldnt that still be prominent nowadays?

[Fietsketting]

thats where im coming from. spain has a good leftist history. wouldnt that still be prominent nowadays?
Defintly, for example there are two anarcho-syndicalist unions, a communist one and a socialist one wich feature a good amount of members. Not what it used to be but plenty of lefties around.

[JAH23]

alright, thanks for the info. were getting somewhere. :thumbup1:

[Fietsketting]

alright, thanks for the info. were getting somewhere. :thumbup1:

Barcelona is the place to be if your planning a trip. Intresting stuff to do now as well now the CNT is 100 years old. All sorts of activities being held.

[JAH23]

yes- traveling to barcelona. but will only be there for about two days. do you have any suggestions on what to do in this short (but sweet ;) ) timespan?

[Q]

CNT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederación_Nacional_del_Trabajo) 35 000 members. Linked to the FAI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federación_Anarquista_Ibérica).
CGT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederación_General_del_Trabajo) 60 000 members
CCOO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers'_Commissions) 1 million members. Linked to the PCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Spain_(main)).
UGT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unión_General_de_Trabajadores) 840 000 members. Linked to PSOE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Socialist_Workers'_Party).

[Fietsketting]

yes- traveling to barcelona. but will only be there for about two days. do you have any suggestions on what to do in this short (but sweet ;) ) timespan?

Well, tourist and leftist. Well... there is so much too see and if you never been there before i would recommend to visit the tourist sites as well. Plaza de Catalunya, down the Ramblas, quick stop at the CNT place near the water, then to the Sagrada Familia. Theres just to much to see!


CNT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederaci%C3%B3n_Nacional_del_Trabajo) 35 000 members. Linked to the FAI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federaci%C3%B3n_Anarquista_Ib%C3%A9rica).
CGT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederaci%C3%B3n_General_del_Trabajo) 60 000 members
CCOO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%27_Commissions) 1 million members. Linked to the PCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Spain_%28main%29).
UGT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uni%C3%B3n_General_de_Trabajadores) 840 000 members. Linked to PSOE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Socialist_Workers%27_Party).
Thats what I said: lots ;)

[AK]

To what extent is Spain a Socialist country? Would it be classified as another European welfare capitalist state, or is it more? What rights do workers have that other workers in other countries do not? Any info would be great.

Ive just heard so much that "they are socialist", even from trusted sources.
Define "trusted sources". Who trusts them? I certainly don't. The reality is, no state could be socialist unless it had instituted workers' ownership of the means of production. I don't see that in Spain... Whenever a western country today is called socialist, those calling it socialist do not know what socialism actually is. Their definition of socialism is either:


government intervention in the economy (funny thing. If so much as a few percent of industry is state-owned, these right-wing morons go ape-shit and think we're on the path to that dreaded "Communism") OR
high taxes OR
a welfare state

Or any combination of the above.
In other words: it's bullshit. Don't trust them.

[AK]

CNT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederaci%C3%B3n_Nacional_del_Trabajo) 35 000 members. Linked to the FAI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federaci%C3%B3n_Anarquista_Ib%C3%A9rica).
CGT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederaci%C3%B3n_General_del_Trabajo) 60 000 members
CCOO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%27_Commissions) 1 million members. Linked to the PCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Spain_%28main%29).
UGT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uni%C3%B3n_General_de_Trabajadores) 840 000 members. Linked to PSOE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Socialist_Workers%27_Party).
Why can't Australia be more like this? :crying:

[Fietsketting]

Why can't Australia be more like this? :crying:
Or The Netherlands for that matter!

Well, at least you have the ASF in Australia. :thumbup1:

[AK]

Well, at least you have the ASF in Australia. :thumbup1:
What the fuck is the ASF?
I've never heard of it... :blushing:

[thomasludd]

What the fuck is the ASF?
I've never heard of it... :blushing:

isn't that the IWA section there?

[Zanthorus]

The reality is, no state could be socialist unless it had instituted workers'ownership of the means of production.

There is more than one definition of socialism FYI. For my part I would say that if all spain did was institute "workers ownership" (I think you actually mean workers control since it is possible to own something in some kind of legal sense but have no real control over it) it would simply be a more egalitarian form of capitalism but then again I am an infantile ultra-leftist.

[Fietsketting]

What the fuck is the ASF?
I've never heard of it... :blushing:



isn't that the IWA section there

:thumbup1:

http://asf-iwa.org.au/

No idea how active it is, could be a one man show for all i know. But the ASF used to be great but some 20 years ago there was a split. Not certain anyhow but if there active maybe its something to look into?

[AK]

There is more than one definition of socialism FYI. For my part I would say that if all spain did was institute "workers ownership" (I think you actually mean workers control since it is possible to own something in some kind of legal sense but have no real control over it) it would simply be a more egalitarian form of capitalism but then again I am an infantile ultra-leftist.
You get the picture. I should've added that to it. I just couldn't be bothered adding any more to it. And what's this I hear about myself not being an infantile ultra-leftist, Zanthorus? :mad:

If I recall correctly, I am more infantile and ultra-leftist than you :p

[Zanthorus]

You get the picture. I should've added that to it. I just couldn't be bothered adding any more to it.

I feel you man :crying:


And what's this I hear about myself not being an infantile ultra-leftist, Zanthorus? :mad:

If I recall correctly, I am more infantile and ultra-leftist than you :p

Nah, you call for "autogestion", "self-management" etc which makes you the left-wing of capital ;)

[AK]

It's funny because pranabjyoti called me a leftcom the other day :lol:

[AK]

Well anyway, the ASF's website hasn't been updated since I registered at RL... September last year :rolleyes:

Anyone got any news on them? Are they still even active?

[Fietsketting]

Well anyway, the ASF's website hasn't been updated since I registered at RL... September last year :rolleyes:

Anyone got any news on them? Are they still even active?


Have a look at Libcom, some of the inner struggles laid out. Seems they splitted intoi a ASF group and one called ASN. Not sure if there still active tho.

[Blake's Baby]

And Spain's still not socialist.

Don't they have a 'Socialist' government? In much the same way as America has a 'Democratic' government, and Germany has a 'Christian' government...

[Q]

It's funny because pranabjyoti called me a leftcom the other day :lol:
Not that I'd take him very seriously in whatever he says.


Have a look at Libcom, some of the inner struggles laid out. Seems they splitted intoi a ASF group and one called ASN. Not sure if there still active tho.
And they say only Trotskyists split :p

But seriously, could you sum up the main issues?

And on that note, could you also explain why the CNT split in Spain after the Franco era? The wikipedia articles aren't exactly clear about it.

[syndicat]

According to opinion polls, public opinion in Spain is quite a bit to the left of other European countries. Spain was the first Latin country to legalize gay marriage.

On the other hand, they also have a strong fascist minority, and the right wing Popular Party (ex-fascists) controls the big city governments in Madrid and Valencia.

The social-democratic UGT union acts pretty much like a yellow "company union." the PSOE (socialist party) is in power but its policies are totally neo-liberal, like "New Labour" in UK.

The government is currently engaged in massive cuts, and there have been some strikes against this, such as one-day public sector strike June 8th. The Communist and social-democratic unions tend to behave like bureaucratic business unions do everywhere, and do not show much militancy.

on the other hand, about a fourth of union members in Spain belong to independent unions which are often more militant and democratic, including 3 anarcho-syndicalist unions and the independent dockworkers union and others.

but Spain's economy is totally capitalist.

when the Franco regime was ended (by ex-fascist capitalists who saw that fascism was deleterious to integration into the EU), there was an attempt to rebuild the historic CNT. by 1979 it had about 300,000 members, and Martin Villa, the head of national police, called it "the greatest internal security threat" in the country. To try to force workers in Spain to rely on a layer of officials to negotiate for them, the government kept the lowest level of the old fascist trade union (which had been destroyed in a massive strike wave), now called "companie committees" (comites de empresa). These are elected typically for 4 year terms, and there is no recall, and they can negotiate contracts without a ratification vote. There was then a debate in CNT on what stance to take towards this. The unions at Barcelona Metro and at SEAT (biggest manufacturing company in Catalonia) said workers like the assembly system for making decisions, but want to do it legally, not always have to confront the state & police. So those two unions started running slates in the elections to the company committees, but on a program of forcing invocation of assemblies to make the decisions.

But another faction (supposedly aligned with the FAI), opposed this and proposed a boycott of the company committee elections. This led to a series of splits. The hard-core anarchist faction who opposed any participation in the company committee elections was able to retain the CNT name, but a majority of the people who were expelled or left came together to form the CGT, which is now the larger of the two. CGT tends to exist in larger enterprises and government entities. CNT is morely likely to exist in smaller workplaces and often tends to work more like what in the USA is called a "workers center"...workers come to them with beefs, they mobilize protests in front of the company, boycotts etc.

The third union, Solidaridad Obrera, which exists mainly in Madrid, split off from CGT but I'm not entirely clear why. There is also an assemblyist health workers union in Madrid which split off from CGT also. There have also been splits from the Workers Commissions which joined the CGT.

[Fietsketting]

And they say only Trotskyists split :p

They do. We just tacticly regroup ;)


But seriously, could you sum up the main issues?I am not totally certain but it seems to have been a personal thing between members after wich they split in two. One are referred too as neo-ASF and are affiliated with the IWA and claim the old ASF name. People doubt there active besides helping out the IWA secteriat. There friend status.

The other part is the ANS. In any case, I think that they happen to represent the polar opposite of what goes on in the Australian anarchist movement - that is, the focus of many anarchist groups appears to be largely around environmental struggles and anti-war, occasional anti-capitalist (though, this mainly takes the form of summit protests), and international solidarity (primarily with the Zapatistas).

The ASN, on the contrary, represents a negation of most of these, if not all of these, struggles in favour a total focus on the workplace, and in particular, transport in Australia



And on that note, could you also explain why the CNT split in Spain after the Franco era? The wikipedia articles aren't exactly clear about it.Principally the issue is over participation in works councils. Works councils were forums set up under Franco to corporatise relations between employers and employees - to end conflict.

Unions can get officials elected onto these works councils "represent"workers in an enterprise. When on these works councils there is nothing to then hold representatives to account if they go against workers wishes. unions with officials on works councils also get funding from the state.


The CNT rightly has nothing to do with them, and the CGT it is becoming more and more like all the other bureaucratic unions. Less and less faithful to the CNTs principles, one reason the CGT is 'denounced' by the IWA/AIT is due to its participation in works council elections.

[syndicat]

CGT it is becoming more and more like all the other bureaucratic unions.

I don't see this. The CGT has term limits for participation in regional, national or local secretariats. If a position is paid, a person can't make more than what they made on their job.

In 2006 the CGT transport union initiated, in an alliance with an independent drivers union, a series of strikes conducted by a workers assembly in Barcelona, and coordinated by an ad hoc elected committee independent of the unions.

just recently the CGT railway union initiated a strike of train crews, in opposition to the positions taken by the "yellow" UGT.

at the end of congresses, delegates stand and give the anarchist salute as they play Alasbarricadas. The CGT recently initiated a youth group, called Anarchosyndicalist Youth.

[Fietsketting]

I don't see this. The CGT has term limits for participation in regional, national or local secretariats. If a position is paid, a person can't make more than what they made on their job.

In 2006 the CGT transport union initiated, in an alliance with an independent drivers union, a series of strikes conducted by a workers assembly in Barcelona, and coordinated by an ad hoc elected committee independent of the unions.

just recently the CGT railway union initiated a strike of train crews, in opposition to the positions taken by the "yellow" UGT.

at the end of congresses, delegates stand and give the anarchist salute as they play Alasbarricadas. The CGT recently initiated a youth group, called Anarchosyndicalist Youth.

Ah, but then the point of workerscouncils remains tho. Could you shed some light on that? How common it is and such?

[Comrade Gwydion]

And Spain's still not socialist.

Don't they have a 'Socialist' government? In much the same way as America has a 'Democratic' government, and Germany has a 'Christian' government...
A bit off-topic

In most Romanesque-speaking countries in Europe the former social-democratic parties call themselves the 'Socialists'. At least in England and the Netherlands they call themselves 'labour' and 'socialdemocrats'. In reality though, they're all simply neo-liberals.


On another note, I really like this thread. It's jummy to hear about the existence of FAI.
Also, Barcelona is absolutely beautifull. Keep an eye open for pickpockets though, it's really bad there.

[Blake's Baby]

I think it's on topic. The OP was under the impression that Spain was 'socialist'. The only reason I can think of is that the government is the Socialist Party. The historical circumstances that lead to the 'Socialist' parties becoming reformist I think are important.

[syndicat]

Ah, but then the point of workerscouncils remains tho. Could you shed some light on that? How common it is and such?

on the comites de empresa, the CGT votes against the "official" unions, UGT and Workers Commissions, so often it is sometimes called "the union that says 'no'". but militancy seems to vary from union to union, according to what some Spanish anarchists have told me. also, CGT does not have a huge number of bargaining council delegates. CGT's main stronghold is Catalonia but it has only about 2 percent of the elected delegates overall, but has about 13 to 18 percent in areas such as public employees, post office, transportation.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Do the parties of the Spanish left, like the Communist Party, have their own separate unions like the KKE does?

[Q]

Do the parties of the Spanish left, like the Communist Party, have their own separate unions like the KKE does?


CNT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederación_Nacional_del_Trabajo) 35 000 members. Linked to the FAI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federación_Anarquista_Ibérica).
CGT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederación_General_del_Trabajo) 60 000 members
CCOO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers'_Commissions) 1 million members. Linked to the PCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Spain_(main)).
UGT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unión_General_de_Trabajadores) 840 000 members. Linked to PSOE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Socialist_Workers'_Party).

So yes.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I'll wait for someone to drop in and scream "Third Periodism!" re. the CCOO. ;)

[Il Medico]

To what extent is Spain a Socialist country?
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaha. :laugh:

Were did you even get this notion?

[AK]

Teabaggers? Conservatives? Fascists?

[Blake's Baby]

The same people who consider Obama a Marxist, I would think.

[JAH23]

I don't see things in black and white. Because a country does not fit your ideal notion of what socialism is, does not mean it has no aspects of leftism in it. Compared to the US, spain is far more left. Workers have much larger and stronger unions and rights. Notice I said, "to what extent" is the country socialist. The title "is spain socialist" is mainly meant to draw responses.

This is the fucking learning forum, isn't it?

[Nolan]

I don't see things in black and white. Because a country does not fit your ideal notion of what socialism is, does not mean it has no aspects of leftism in it. Compared to the US, spain is far more left. Workers have much larger and stronger unions and rights. Notice I said, "to what extent" is the country socialist. The title "is spain socialist" is mainly meant to draw responses.

This is the fucking learning forum, isn't it?

It's either socialist or it's not. Don't try to teach socialists about socialism, please. :rolleyes:

Just because it "has some aspects of leftism in it" doesn't mean shit. I think a better way to word your question would be "to what extent is Spain social democratic."

[Boboulas]

Just answer the mans question and stop nit picking! :D

[counterblast]

thats where im coming from. spain has a good leftist history. wouldnt that still be prominent nowadays?

The U.S. has a good leftist history, too, but that doesn't account for much.

[DDR]

Interesting thread.

Spain is a constitutional monarchy, like GB or The Netherlands. Politicaly is just another capitalist democracy, well, better like any other capitalist democracy of the "old" Europe, welfare, universal social security, and so forth.

In real political terms right now is going to the slope of fascism, we have laws (which are going to get stronger and more represive) that outlaw some parties (in this case only are affected the izquierda abertzale, patriotic basque left not the fascist/nazis for example)

As for unions CCOO (Comisiones Obreras, worker's comissions) and UGT (Union General de Trabajadores, worker's general union) are linked to two major parties:

CCOO to the PCE/IU (Comunist Party of Spain/Izquierda unida, united left [a platform to, supposedly, unite the all the leftist parties in Spain]).

UGT to the PSOE (Partido Socialista Obrero Español, spanish socialist worker's party, which is currently in power).

Both of them are just puppets of the sistem, they haven't call for a general strike 'till it was unbearable, and when they did, it has been on the next September 29th.

CNT (Confederación Nacional de Trabajadores, Worker's National Confederacy, linked to the IWA) and CGT (Confederación General de Trabajadores, Worker's General Confederacy, a split up of the last one because the issue of sindical elections) are two anacho-syndicalist unions.

Also there's more leftist unions SAT, LAB, etc. I don't know in Barcelona, never been in Catalonia, but right now there's a struggle there because of the Etatut. A number of laws, rights and obligations made by the Catalonians to get more independence, and propably the first step to get out of Spain.

[syndicat]

LAB is the union associated with the outlawed Herri Batasuna, the political party front of ETA. there was just a general strike in the Basque country, called initially by the Basque nationalist unions (ELA, LAB and others), and then joined by the CNT and CGT, and finally by the Workers Commissions.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Man, I wish Joe Hill's Ghost was still around. He was a CNT/IWW member who had spent a good deal of time in Spain, he coulda told you all about it.

[JAH23]

DDR: Thank you. That helps a lot.

[syndicat]

I'll wait for someone to drop in and scream "Third Periodism!" re. the CCOO.

but that wouldn't be accurate because at the time of the "transition" after Franco died, it was the social dems and anarchists who split from the Workers Commissions to build their own unions, UGT and CNT. the Communists remained the dominant influence in the Workers Commissions. the Workers Commissions wasn't formed by splitting from the UGT.

[DDR]

but that wouldn't be accurate because at the time of the "transition" after Franco died, it was the social dems and anarchists who split from the Workers Commissions to build their own unions, UGT and CNT. the Communists remained the dominant influence in the Workers Commissions. the Workers Commissions wasn't formed by splitting from the UGT.

Sorry but that's not true UGT and CNT were formed in the beginnings of the XX Century. CCOO is formed in the 60s infiltrated into the union system of franquism

[syndicat]

yeah, the CNT was founded in 1910. But by the late '60s, early '70s the oppositional worker committees in the last years of franquismo included participation of anarchists and socialists and Christians as well as Communists. the CNT itself had been destroyed finally in the '60s by the franquista police state.

so what happened during the transition is that the PSOE supporters rebuilt the UGT and anarchists worked to rebuild the CNT. so i should have said that the socialists and anarchists split to rebuild their organizations, which had been destroyed by franquismo (that is, to rebuild them in the Spanish state, as opposed to merely exile organizations).