North Korea to choose new leaders

[Leonid Brozhnev]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia_pacific/10422809.stm


North Korea's ruling communist party is to hold a rare meeting of its political bureau, state media have said.

The session will be held in September to select new leaders to the Workers' Party of Korea (WPK), the North Korean Central News Agency said.

Analysts say the move may signal a transition of power in the secretive country.

Leader Kim Jong-il is believed to be in ill health and grooming one of his sons, Kim Jong-un, to succeed him.

The meeting is "for electing [the party's] highest leading body reflecting the new requirements of the WPK," the announcement said.

"We are now faced with the sacred revolutionary tasks to develop the WPK... into an eternal glorious party of Kim Il-sung and further increase its militant function and role to glorify the country as a great prosperous and powerful socialist nation."

'Leaders' is a pretty ambiguous term, but if Kim Jong is as sick as the media makes him out to be, North Korea could be on the brink of a new era. Whether that's a good or bad thing is obviously yet to be seen.

[Walt]

I'd hope to see a new era of left put into place in the DPRK in hopes of them implementing more core socialist values, perhaps limiting the fierce nationalism the country prides itself with, as well as reducing it's all around hostility towards opposing nations.

Although it's hard to believe, because I'm sure Kim is working out a systematic plan to hold onto it's ultra patriotism and what not. We'll see within the next few years, though.

[Adi Shankara]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia_pacific/10422809.stm



"...Leader Kim Jong-il is believed to be in ill health and grooming one of his sons, Kim Jong-un, to succeed him."

Interesting...do they know when his coronation ceremony will be? :rolleyes:

[Adi Shankara]

bump; I want to hear more opinions on what is basically the hand-picked choosing of his son to secede him.

[AK]

^ It's bullshit is what.

[scarletghoul]

I don't get why everyone's jumping to conclusions that his son is being made his successor, he's not yet in any position high enough to be made a top government leader. If KJI died tomorrow, certainly someone other than his son would replace him. The media just jumped on any mention of his son, assuming that he is being made into the next leader. In fact that has nowhere been confirmed and KJU is not a prominant figure at all (they still don't have any photographs of him over the age of like 10..). Certainly he is being secured a place in the government, but he has yet to rise up the Party hierarchy enough to be considered as a successor. Maybe in 5 or 10 years, but right now it's impossible to say.

I'd hope to see a new era of left put into place in the DPRK in hopes of them implementing more core socialist values, perhaps limiting the fierce nationalism the country prides itself with, as well as reducing it's all around hostility towards opposing nations.

Although it's hard to believe, because I'm sure Kim is working out a systematic plan to hold onto it's ultra patriotism and what not. We'll see within the next few years, though.
This 'ultra patriotism' and 'hostility towards opposing nations' is because Korea is still in a state of war, and the US is constantly threatening the North. Of course sides are gonna be hostile in a state of war, and a high level of nationalist sentiment, though ultimately reactionary, is quite understandable for a country under imperialist siege.

But yes, I do hope a new generation of leadership will start to emerge now and steer the country in a more socialist direction. However, it's just as likely, maybe more likely, that new leaders will want to start a kind of 'market socialism'.. Who knows.. exciting stuff

[ogdenville]

Naturally I'm not thrilled with it buts it comes as no surprise. I wonder if the US will sharpen its posture even more toward the DPRK because they sense that system is somehow weakening?

[Walt]

This 'ultra patriotism' and 'hostility towards opposing nations' is because Korea is still in a state of war, and the US is constantly threatening the North. Of course sides are gonna be hostile in a state of war, and a high level of nationalist sentiment, though ultimately reactionary, is quite understandable for a country under imperialist siege.

Indeed, I understand it completely, but when schoolchildren of the DPRK's curriculum is half of learning about the 2 leaders of North Korea and how great they are, then we have a problem- especially for future generations.

[Adi Shankara]

Naturally I'm not thrilled with it buts it comes as no surprise. I wonder if the US will sharpen its posture even more toward the DPRK because they sense that system is somehow weakening?

Probably, probably not. the Castro era in Cuba is coming to an end, but they still won't fuck with Cuba, because they know that if they do, there is an entire army on the island waiting to meet them.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Indeed, I understand it completely, but when schoolchildren of the DPRK's curriculum is half of learning about the 2 leaders of North Korea and how great they are, then we have a problem- especially for future generations.

do you have any evidence to back these claims up with?

[Walt]

do you have any evidence to back these claims up with?
Nothing more than the 20+ documentaries I've watched and hundreds of articles I've read on the DPRK. There are several documentaries that film the teachings with k-12 schools within N Korea, and you clearly see the cult of personality being built around their leaders. Just watch a few documentaries, and you'll stumble upon what I'm talking about.

[GreenCommunism]

that still doesn't mean half of what they learn is about their leader. oh and.. documentaries about north korea? don't make me point out the obvious.

[Walt]

that still doesn't mean half of what they learn is about their leader. oh and.. documentaries about north korea? don't make me point out the obvious.
possibly a bit over exaggeration of my part, I used the term "half" quite loosely, my apologies (but who knows what they do, honestly I wouldn't be surprised). And, yes, I know much about the propaganda documentaries the west conjures up every so often, and I tend to look through such videos. However, with all the information I've gathered through the years about the DPRK, honestly I find it safe to say that the DPRK concentrates a great deal about boosting the cult of personality around it's leaders and philosophy.

[Fietsketting]

However, with all the information I've gathered through the years about the DPRK, honestly I find it safe to say that the DPRK concentrates a great deal about boosting the cult of personality around it's leaders and philosophy.

Agreed. Second time this weekend i bring out this quote from Marx.

From my antipathy to any cult of the individual, I never made public during the existence of the [1st] International the numerous addresses from various countries which recognized my merits and which annoyed me... Engels and I first joined the secret society of Communists on the condition that everything making for superstitious worship of authority would be deleted from its statute...

[Hiero]

possibly a bit over exaggeration of my part, I used the term "half" quite loosely, my apologies (but who knows what they do, honestly I wouldn't be surprised). And, yes, I know much about the propaganda documentaries the west conjures up every so often, and I tend to look through such videos. However, with all the information I've gathered through the years about the DPRK, honestly I find it safe to say that the DPRK concentrates a great deal about boosting the cult of personality around it's leaders and philosophy.


It is amazing what people will say about DPRK, even when their statements contradict each other.

[Adi Shankara]

I think I most on here wouldn't ridicule the pro-North Korea crowd if North Korea actually had some semblance to a socialist state in progress...

...they don't. it's the Kim family private estate.

[peaccenicked]

The main thing , is that North Korea is that it is a target for the US. The internal system
is unjust, but it is independent of the US. It means that the fight for justice in North Korea will be financed by the CIA. If we look at Korea without recognizing this we are not looking at the fundamental facts.

[Hiratsuka]

The main thing , is that North Korea is that it is a target for the US. The internal system
is unjust, but it is independent of the US. It means that the fight for justice in North Korea will be financed by the CIA. If we look at Korea without recognizing this we are not looking at the fundamental facts.

I can't tell what the intent of your post was. Are you arguing that we should be more supportive of the North Korean regime than a South Korean or US sponsored liberal republic?

[Walt]

It is amazing what people will say about DPRK, even when their statements contradict each other.
How did I contradict myself? The DPRK is so isolated and secretive, no one can make a guaranteed statement about anything. But as I've told you numerous times in this thread, years of reading, writing, and watching all the information I could possibly get my hands on pertaining to the DPRK, I've concluded to myself that a large portion of their k-12 criteria (not sure about universities in Pyongyang, I've yet to see a document/video that goes onto explain about further education, they tend to keep that quite secretive) consists of the boost of the personality cult that surrounds the Kim's and their Juche/Songun philosophy.

It's obvious that if you don't agree that education in North Korea boosts the personality cults, then you haven't gathered that much information on the DPRK all together. I did a quick Wikipedia search for you, and I'll paste what I've found:

Defectors have been quoted as saying that North Korean schools deify both father and son.[83] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-il#cite_note-Pierre_Rigoulot_2005-82) He is often the centre of attention throughout ordinary life in the DPRK. His birthday is one of the most important public holidays in the country. On his 60th birthday (based on his official date of birth), mass celebrations occurred throughout the country on the occasion of his Hwangap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwangap).[84] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-il#cite_note-83) Many North Koreans believe that he has the "magical" ability to "control the weather (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_control)" based on his mood.[83] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-il#cite_note-Pierre_Rigoulot_2005-82)
Say all you want that this Wikipedia excerpt is the product of the pro-Imperialism west, but there's no hiding the fact that the above is considered rather true- which can be confirmed by defectors, vacationers (I plan on heading to North Korea next year), media agencies, etc.

Not to mention many documentaries that were supported and allowed by the DPRK clearly show that they boost the personality cults in schools publicly.

[peaccenicked]

The intent of my post is not supportive of any injustice. Just; I am well aware that there are those who will look at Korea without any recognition that North korea is part of the axis of evil, suggested by Bush II, unrepealed by Clinton II.

[Hiero]

The DPRK is so isolated and secretive, no one can make a guaranteed statement about anything.


...and then you finish with a definite conclusion. I shouldn't have to point out the contradiction.

I mean if I take your word for it am I to assume the rest is just lies?



I've concluded to myself that a large portion of their k-12 criteria




Not to mention many documentaries that were supported and allowed by the DPRK clearly show that they boost the personality cults in schools publicly.


Thoose are two different statements.

The first is statement about the education criteria of DPRK (do they even have the grades k-12?). No amount of research would give a clear idea on the criteria other then seeing the actually curriculum.

The second is a general statement that schools in DPRK boost a personality cult. Which is something is quite possible and I would say most likely. However the two statements are sloopy and your opninon is half baked. For all that research you have done you can't even provide a clear statement about this issue.

Also, documentories only show fractions of people's lives, and this fractions are composed to form a narrative controled by the directer. I don't trust anyone who claims documentories as a source.

Finally, The source Wikipedia provides for the claims about DPRK schooling is The Aquariums of Pyongyang. It is co-written by Pierre Rigoulot, who wrote the Black Book of Communism, which has been descredited as dishonest and simply neo-con propaganda.

I am not sure when the author Kang Chol-Hwan left North Korea, but his experience in work camps and schooling is from at least 30 years ago. If we assume he is telling the truth, it is not a present account.

Also in regards to the claim that schools were teaching children that Kim Il Sung controled the wheather, unless someone has read the book, I am more inclined to think this is a metaphor. It is very hard to believe that the DPRK suppressed the knowledge of wheather, how would they get experts to work for the governments wheather beauru? Also the fact that the million or so Korea'a peasants and farmers clearly know that Kim Il Sung does not control the wheather, I am more likely to believe this is a national metaphor that has been purposefully take out of context.

[Walt]

...and then you finish with a definite conclusion. I shouldn't have to point out the contradiction.

Indeed, I did finish with a definite conclusion because of the numerous studies I've done on North Korea. It's true, that the country is so isolated it's hard to make such a conclusion, but, of course, it can be done, because in recent years the DPRK has opened up its borders much more than previous years allowing tourists and documentary groups.


The first is statement about the education criteria of DPRK (do they even have the grades k-12?). No amount of research would give a clear idea on the criteria other then seeing the actually curriculum.
There is enough information to conclude that North Korean curriculum consists much of the cult of personality around it's leaders. That's where the fierce nationalism originates from in most cases.


The second is a general statement that schools in DPRK boost a personality cult. Which is something is quite possible and I would say most likely. However the two statements are sloopy and your opninon is half baked. For all that research you have done you can't even provide a clear statement about this issue.
Of course I can't provide a clear, understandable statement, that's simply because we are discussing the DPRK. What do you want me to do? Provide a source from the .edu website of North Korea that clearly explains their curriculum? I can't do that, because nothing of the sort exists. But what I can do, and what I did, is gather as much non-bias information sources as possible, and gain a conclusion from that. Also, the bold part. We agree at this point, why do we continue to debate? This is what I was simply getting at.


Also, documentories only show fractions of people's lives, and this fractions are composed to form a narrative controled by the directer. I don't trust anyone who claims documentories as a source.
This doesn't make sense. You don't trust a documentary because such documentaries have directors? Please explain this statement.


Finally, The source Wikipedia provides for the claims about DPRK schooling is The Aquariums of Pyongyang. It is co-written by Pierre Rigoulot, who wrote the Black Book of Communism, which has been descredited as dishonest and simply neo-con propaganda.
Thanks for pointing this out. I can understand the skepticism that comes along with such authors.



Also in regards to the claim that schools were teaching children that Kim Il Sung controled the wheather, unless someone has read the book, I am more inclined to think this is a metaphor. It is very hard to believe that the DPRK suppressed the knowledge of wheather, how would they get experts to work for the governments wheather beauru? Also the fact that the million or so Korea'a peasants and farmers clearly know that Kim Il Sung does not control the wheather, I am more likely to believe this is a national metaphor that has been purposefully take out of context.Fair enough, I didn't mean to paste that excerpt along with my quote.

However, almost in ever text I've read, whether the author was liberal, conservative, indie, or a leftist, there always seems to be a mention of the build up of cult of personality in the school system. From my first post in this thread, this is what I was originally going for.

I don't understand why you refuse to trust documentaries, as that is where almost all our information comes from the DPRK. Of course, some will be biased, but it's pretty easy to see clear through such things and pull out the real information. I'll be happy to supply you with video clips from popular, non biased documentaries that show teachers boosting the CoP of the Kims.