Stalin statue taken down in Georgia

[zubovskyblvd]

BBC reports that the statue of Stalin that stood in Gori has been taken down overnight:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/10412097.stm

"It will be replaced by a monument for the victims of Georgia's 2008 war with Russia"

"A journalist told Reuters news agency that police had tried to prevent reporters from filming the removal of the statue"

well, this doesn't sound like a political move on behalf of the Georgian government at all, does it? :rolleyes:

[khad]

Maybe that terrorist Sack-of-shit-vili will kill more people this time around.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/georgia-blows-up-t125204/index.html


The opposition in Georgia held a peaceful rally in the city of Kutaisi where, two days ago, a woman and her daughter were killed during the demolition of a World War II memorial.
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About 2,000 people and the leaders of several parties attended the event.
The protesters criticized authorities for their policy and said "the fight against monuments is unacceptable and criminal".
”People, who start fighting with history and with monuments like this, those individuals have completely lost their ability to think,” one of the protesters said.
“As a citizen of my country, and as a World War Two veteran I take the demolition of this monument as an act of humiliation to my people. Whoever made this decision, spat right into the heart of his own nation,” the other protester stressed.
Read more (http://www.anonym.to/?http://rt.com/Top_News/2009-12-21/2000-protest-demolition-memorial.html?fullstory)
Meanwhile, the Georgian Labor Party has urged the UN and UNESCO to form a special commission and investigate the situation.
"Several days ago the UN adopted a resolution which condemned the glorification of Nazis and defamation of monuments to WW2 victims. Thus, the UN must condemn the destruction of the Glory Monument in Kutaisi on the order of President Mikhail Saakashvili," Labor Party Secretary General Ioseb Shatberashvili stated at a news briefing on Monday.
The monument was taken down on Saturday (http://www.anonym.to/?http://rt.com/Top_News/2009-12-19/memorial-georgia-people-killed.html) to clear a space for a planned parliament building.
The opposition, however, demands the memorial be restored and a church be built near the site in memory of both the World War II heroes and the two dead residents.
Some also believe that by destroying the monument president Mikhail Saakashvili wants to erase all connection between Georgians and Russians.

[Adi Shankara]

Maybe that terrorist Sack-of-shit-vili will kill more people this time around.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/georgia-blows-up-t125204/index.html


I wonder why the presidents of former communist states try so hard to erase history, and basically deny that it ever happened? from what I actually read in polls, Stalin is still pretty popular in the former soviet block for his leadership in the Great Patriotic War...

[~Spectre]

BBC reports that the statue of Stalin that stood in Gori has been taken down overnight:



Good.

[Nolan]

Good.

*Mod Edit: Do not post pictures like this on the Politics forum, ever!*

Or maybe you are.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Good.

yep, I was waiting for someone to spew such b.s.

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

Considering that Stalin starved a nation to the point in which 10 million people died in a single year and considering that there is evidence to suggest that even Lenin was scared of Stalin, why do we romanticize him? There were and are many people who are better to glorify in my opinion...

[Weezer]

:thumbup1:

[Nolan]

Considering that Stalin starved a nation to the point in which 10 million people died in a single year and considering that there is evidence to suggest that even Lenin was scared of Stalin, why do we romanticize him? There were and are many people who are better to glorify in my opinion...

Oh boy this just keeps getting better! Robert Conquest has a Revleft account!

[the last donut of the night]

Good.

You do know that this isn't a move by lovable and idealistic "anti-stalinist" communists right? This is just an example of the dirty and bourgeois nationalism we've seen spring up in the Balkans and Caucasus spring up after 1991 and has been used to justify horrible attacks on working-class people of all ethnicities or nationalities. How about you read into the article and learn a bit before making stupid, self-serving comments?

This is not too surprising -- now Revleft can boast Saakashvilli supporters!

[Nolan]

now Revleft can boast Saakashvilli supporters!

Hey you shut up! Stalin was an evil mass murder and anyone who sees him for what he was is a force for good and true socialism!

[the last donut of the night]

Hey you shut up! Stalin was an evil mass murder and anyone who sees him for what he was is a force for good and true socialism!

omg look what info i found on teh internet on evil stalin:


In order to stay in power, Stalin murdered everyone he suspected might threaten his absolute power even in the slightest, not just political enemies. From Karelia to Mongolia - death squads patrolled the countryside, and minorities were at the top of the hit list. Phoney charges were laid, and executions followed swiftly. Lenin valued Stalin's ruthless vicious cruel streak, a quality his other colleagues came to dislike and which they took to be the dominant factor in his character. Some argue that Russia survived only because of Stalin, and that there simply were no leaders in Russia capable of leading Russia in time of war. Perhaps, but it is no thanks to Stalin, who killed all threats to his sole power. In Stalinist "democracy" you could vote one of your own to be shot, and millions were. This is the kind of democracy that American founding fathers warned against. No absolute laws controlled these "Advanced" Marxist Stalinists, for they are free to make their own, unfettered by old moral laws.



you can find it all here: http://uralica.com/murder.htm

im so glad people can tell me all about him!!!!!111

[Nolan]

See?? I told you guiz!

I read in the natinal enquirer that they found scales on Stalins corpse when they exhumed himin 2000! Hes not human i tell you! No humkan would kill 50 million Ukrainians!

[Weezer]

You think Stalin's purges are a joke?

What's wrong with you?

[pranabjyoti]

You think Stalin's purges are a joke?

What's wrong with you?
Purges are CERTAINLY no jokes. It's a proletariat reaction to the reactionary petty-bourgeoisie actions AND AN ESSENTIAL PART FOR ESTABLISHING THE DICTATORSHIP OF PROLETARIAT.

[Weezer]

Purges are CERTAINLY no jokes. It's a proletariat reaction to the reactionary petty-bourgeoisie actions AND AN ESSENTIAL PART FOR ESTABLISHING THE DICTATORSHIP OF PROLETARIAT.

cool story broletarian

[Yazman]

Or maybe you are.

This is disruptive, and you'll remove the image if you know whats good for you, or else I'll do it for you.

I don't want to see any more posts like this in this thread. This isn't chit chat and it isn't appropriate.


cool story broletarian

I don't care how silly or ridiculous a post might come across to you, but when you make a post on the politics board you have to be aware that, again, it isn't chit chat. The rules explicitly state that you have to contribute to the discussion in a meaningful way, and simply spamming memes isn't contributing in a meaningful way and amounts to spam. Furthermore, you've also made a post in this thread consisting of a single smiley - again, this is spam, and it isn't allowed. Don't do it again!

This post constitutes a verbal warning to RedVelvet and Captain Cuba.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

Broseph Stalin was just joking. Best hide and don't ever seek, evar.

I don't see why the crazies still worship Stalin. You can't fear a dead guy, right? ;)

[pranabjyoti]

Broseph Stalin was just joking. Best hide and don't ever seek, evar.

I don't see why the crazies still worship Stalin. You can't fear a dead guy, right? ;)
Because he is embodiment of DICTATORSHIP OF PROLETARIAT and without him, the history of the world would be totally different.

[Q]

Captain Cuba and pranabjyoti: making communists look good on the world wide web...

I'll go for the Picardian facepalm (http://dragis.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/picard-facepalm.jpg), because you guys are just so thick argueing won't work.


Because he is embodiment of DICTATORSHIP OF PROLETARIAT ...
I mean, seriously, how can anyone take this total nutjob in any kind of regard?

[#FF0000]

I swear to fucking christ I'm going to ban the next person to say something and not make an argument to back it up.

[Robocommie]

Here's an argument; Stalin's legacy is extremely complicated and while there is ample space to criticize him and even consider him a poor leader, even a criminal, the truth is that he was in charge for a very long time and a great deal of things happened during the Stalinist period, both good and bad, some very good, and some very bad. Simply stating that Stalin killed millions of people and just leaving it at that isn't enough - because anti-socialists say the exact same thing, and frequently the numbers climb ever higher. "Stalin killed more than Hitler/Stalin killed more Jews than Hitler/Stalin heated his dacha with a furnace that ran on human souls" etc.

There's a lot of legitimate complaints to make about the poor management of collectivism, and the heavy handed nature of the NKVD's purges, and frankly making overly broad statements does not help for an understanding of that.

I don't particularly care about this statue, but as someone has pointed out, this is not anti-Stalinism, this is anti-Communism/anti-Soviet sentiment being played out, and Saakashvili has done stuff like this before.

[Adi Shankara]

There's a lot of legitimate complaints to make about the poor management of collectivism, and the heavy handed nature of the NKVD's purges, and frankly making overly broad statements does not help for an understanding of that.

I'm a 2nd gen Russian American, so I know a little about why these things are the way they are.

the removal of that statue in Georgia isn't so much anti-Stalin or anti-Communist as it is anti-Russian. (hence why I said it seemed they were trying to rewrite history).

There are to this day many Russians who still hold Stalin in very high regard for his defense of Russia against German aggression during "The Great Patriotic War", aka WWII.

they're removing this statue as a slap in the face to Russians, because they know that no one really agreed with the Stalinist purges, but everyone who is Russian that I know still greatly admires the defense Stalin contributed to our nation against the Nazis.

tl;dr: it's motivated by racism against Russians.

[Robocommie]

Which is ironic because Stalin was Georgian. :lol:

[the last donut of the night]

Let's not get into the usual "how many people Stalin killed" argument, because that's not the point of this thread.


You think Stalin's purges are a joke?

What's wrong with you?

I'm sorry, it gets kind of annoying when so-called leftists support racist and nationalist chauvinism.

[Weezer]

Let's not get into the usual "how many people Stalin killed" argument, because that's not the point of this thread.



I'm sorry, it gets kind of annoying when so-called leftists support racist and nationalist chauvinism.

I'm sorry I'm such a poser leftist. I better go apologize to Stalin. :(

[Adi Shankara]

Which is ironic because Stalin was Georgian. :lol:


lol, exactly. but then again, I don't blame them--most Russians don't know Stalin was Georgian either :lol:

[Yazman]

This thread is going to get locked if you guys don't stop posting one-liners, jokes, and ridiculing one another. It isn't appropriate.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

Im no fan of Stalin at all, but you have to remember that many things said about him, ore more correctly things said about his ruling time in the USSR, are just exaggeratings to be used against the labour movement of today, saying if we makes the working day shorter that will be the first step to building a gulag and so on.
On topic; I think its silly to removing the statue simply because its a way of ignoring history, like if its never happend. In many places around the world we have statues and monuments of hated regimes an persons, here in Sweden we still have the statue of king Charles XII, who allmoust destroyde our country by making more and more wars to extend and protect the empire at anny cost necessary. Do i want his statue to be removed? No. Its part of our history and if you take that away what more should be removed according to the same argument? The pyramids in Egypt, Taj Mahall, Versailles? I hope my point went through.

[Honggweilo]

lol, exactly. but then again, I don't blame them--most Russians don't know Stalin was Georgian either :lol:

Thats not true, alot of Stalin jokes in Russia are told with a heavy georgian accent.

[Dire Helix]

In many places around the world we have statues and monuments of hated regimes an persons, here in Sweden we still have the statue of king Charles XII, who allmoust destroyde our country by making more and more wars to extend and protect the empire at anny cost necessary. Do i want his statue to be removed? No. Its part of our history and if you take that away what more should be removed according to the same argument? The pyramids in Egypt, Taj Mahall, Versailles? I hope my point went through.

I doubt the name of Charles XII or the pyramids invoke as much fear in capitalists as a statue or a street named after some prominent revolutionary(and I`m not talking about just Stalin here). It`s an especially big "problem" in Russia. Capitalists simply don`t like to live in an environment where every nook and cranny commemorates revolutionaries and revolutionary events from the past.

[Adi Shankara]

Thats not true, alot of Stalin jokes in Russia are told with a heavy georgian accent.

I was thinking more along the lines of the ridiculous Pamyat and Slavnskiy soyuz who worship Stalin and Hitler simultaneously as they are beating up an old Georgian woman...but then again, I suppose that's a poor example to base that off of :cool:

[Dire Helix]

Slavyanskiy Soyuz(Slavic Union) is a neo-nazi organization. They don`t worship Stalin. He is sometimes praised and worshipped by some national-patriots, but never by neo-nazis.

[Adi Shankara]

Slavyanskiy Soyuz(Slavic Union) is a neo-nazi organization. They don`t worship Stalin. He is sometimes praised and worshipped by some national-patriots, but never by neo-nazis.

But I always thought they call him geroye russkogo naroda? like, spaz Rossiyu during velikaye otechistvenaya voyna (forgive, my russian is kind've rusty )

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I think having a statue of Stalin is ridiculous in the first place, not saying he was a bad leader or other anti-Stalin arguments that could be made, but I just don't like the fact that it just furthers a cult of personality and all that crap. Kind of like Lenin's body, that's just weird, we should get rid of it instead of displaying it like it's a treasure for everybody to see.

[4 Leaf Clover]

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:iHxlg3bXkLwKlM:http://nanaberuashvili.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/stalin.jpg

Just when i thought i was out , they pull me back in

[People's War]

Stalin was a great leader and the actions he took against some members of the party were neccesary to prevent capitalist roaders seizing control of the party and veering it in the direction of state capitalism (as happened under Khrushchev). Look at Stalin's achievements: Life expectancy rose as the healthcare system improved dramatically. Typhus, cholera and malaria gone from being endemic diseases to rarities. Women were granted an equal education for the first time as well as equal employment rights. Literacy became near universal. An 8 hour day was implemented.

What's more, Stalin knew the National Socialist blood cult in Germany would eventually attack the USSR and thus prepared for war to prevent them conquering the nation. No-one else could have achieved that to the extent that he did.

This move is not anti-Stalinism as much as anti-communism from a right wing US puppet.

[AK]

This move is not anti-Stalinism as much as anti-communism from a right wing US puppet.
I'm not going to even bother replying to your other comments, although I do agree with you on this one. As anti-Stalinist as many are on this board (myself included), we have to realise why it is that this happened - not as some sort of anti-authoritarian statement, but to raise nationalistic sentiment among Georgians and increase support for the Georgian government and capitalism.

[The Ben G]

Considering that Stalin starved a nation to the point in which 10 million people died in a single year and considering that there is evidence to suggest that even Lenin was scared of Stalin, why do we romanticize him? There were and are many people who are better to glorify in my opinion...

Why would Lenin be afraid of Stalin when he and him were close friends? What could Stalin possibly do to Lenin? Though, I do agree with you that Stalin's rule should be criticized instead of being romanticized.

[The Ben G]

Stalin was a great leader and the actions he took against some members of the party were neccesary to prevent capitalist roaders seizing control of the party and veering it in the direction of state capitalism (as happened under Khrushchev).

Capitalist Roaders? You mean like those people who weren't 100% Pro Stalin, right? Even Lenin described the USSR as State Capitalist.


Look at Stalin's achievements: Life expectancy rose as the healthcare system improved dramatically. Typhus, cholera and malaria gone from being endemic diseases to rarities. Women were granted an equal education for the first time as well as equal employment rights. Literacy became near universal. An 8 hour day was implemented.

Stalin was no super hero. Without the Men and Women that helped him, Stalin would be dead in the water. Saying he did this is like saying that Black Sabbath created the sun.


What's more, Stalin knew the National Socialist blood cult in Germany would eventually attack the USSR and thus prepared for war to prevent them conquering the nation. No-one else could have achieved that to the extent that he did.

You mean, this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact) never happened, right?

[Nolan]

You mean, this (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact) never happened, right?

Except "this" was part of Stalin's strategy to prepare Soviet forces for war. Stop being an idiot and trying to resurrect arguments that have been utterly defeated, beheaded and castrated by MLs on this very forum.

But I imagine you think M-R was some good will gesture toward Nazi Germany or an alliance or something like that.

[khad]

Except "this" was part of Stalin's strategy to prepare Soviet forces for war. Stop being an idiot and trying to resurrect arguments that have been utterly defeated, beheaded and castrated by MLs on this very forum.

But I imagine you think M-R was some good will gesture toward Nazi Germany or an alliance or something like that.
Actually, it was a deal made with backs against the wall to outmaneuver one fascist enabler state (Poland) and take it out before it could turn on the USSR, like it did during the civil war.

Poland signed a non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany in 1934 and actively participated in the Nazis' territorial annexations for years. There was even some talk of a possible joint invasion of the USSR.

In this context, the Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty made some sense. Was it the best choice? Maybe or maybe not. It's certainly not this representation of PURE EVIL that various sects and their acolytes seem to present it as, in their decontextualized and idealist view of history.

Sympathy for Poland is every bit as odious as sympathy for nationalist puppets like Saakashvili. It's funny how leftists here would rush to the defense of every reactionary state and movement just so they can score some points against the boogeyman Stalin. The USSR had been prepared to send over 100 divisions to prevent the Nazi annexation of Czechoslovakia, if only those Polish backstabbers hadn't been making a land grab of their own while blocking any land access for the Red Army.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

You do know that this isn't a move by lovable and idealistic "anti-stalinist" communists right? This is just an example of the dirty and bourgeois nationalism we've seen spring up in the Balkans and Caucasus spring up after 1991 and has been used to justify horrible attacks on working-class people of all ethnicities or nationalities. How about you read into the article and learn a bit before making stupid, self-serving comments?

This is not too surprising -- now Revleft can boast Saakashvilli supporters!

... how do you get Saakashvilli supporters/Georgian nationalism out of some people being happy that a statue of a psychotic dictator was taken down?

Revleft never ceases to amaze me.

[Adi Shankara]

... how do you get Saakashvilli supporters/Georgian nationalism out of some people being happy that a statue of a psychotic dictator was taken down?

Revleft never ceases to amaze me.


I think it's motivated out of anti-Russian sentiment (because many Russians still revere him), yes...but I agree with you. I can't even begin to see where Saakashvilli fits into here.

[the last donut of the night]

... how do you get Saakashvilli supporters/Georgian nationalism out of some people being happy that a statue of a psychotic dictator was taken down?

Revleft never ceases to amaze me.

It doesn't matter how your idealism tries to see the real world; the real world after all is much different. Sure, on a theoretical plane you could see this as a very good action because it's an "anti-Stalinist" action by people trying to prove a point that they're stronger than their old "oppression", but the case is much different in reality. It's a racist, nationalist, and anti-communist move, and siding with it is a message of support to racism and anti-communism -- whether you like it or not. That's the problem with, as Parenti calls it, "leftist anti-communism". In typical liberal fear, leftists bow down to bourgeois lies and scream that "that was never true socialism!" and accept all of the bourgeoisie's lies about these regimes. So in the end, these leftists end up in the same lot with some of the worst reactionaries instead of taking up the charge of at least recognizing old socialist regimes. Whether you like it or not, in the real world, by actively saying "good" to this measure, you are siding unintentionally (I hope) with Saakashvilli and his thugs.

Sorry to say, but the real world requires more than theoretics and idealistic positions, because the real world is hardly about that.

[Red Saxon]

Statues are meant to honor those who have done something great, not those who have committed mass genocide.

Would you all be talking differently if it was a Hitler statue they were taking down? :|

[Barry Lyndon]

Fuck reactionary Slavic nationalists. Fuck Stalin. That's all I have to say. It is possible to despise both, Stalinist-worshippers.

[People's War]

Statues are meant to honor those who have done something great, not those who have committed mass genocide.

Would you all be talking differently if it was a Hitler statue they were taking down? :|

Yes, because Hitler was a racist fascist maniac who wanted to destroy everything non-German. And you seriously believe the 'Holodomor' was Soviet caused? Millions of non-Russians also died, and the story was first circulated by the William Randolph Hearst, a nutty American ultra-conservative who admired Hitler which brings its whole validity into doubt.

[Zanthorus]

In typical liberal fear, leftists bow down to bourgeois lies and scream that "that was never true socialism!"

How many people Stalin did/didn't kill has nothing to do with the economic character of his regime.

[the last donut of the night]

Statues are meant to honor those who have done something great, not those who have committed mass genocide.

Would you all be talking differently if it was a Hitler statue they were taking down? :|

http://ssreporters.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/facepalm.jpg

Wow.

[the last donut of the night]

How many people Stalin did/didn't kill has nothing to do with the economic character of his regime.

Of course, but I wasn't referring to the numbers debate. I was talking about how some leftists will accept bourgeois lies (including about the economic nature of his regime) because arguing against them is too controversial for their tastes.

[Zanthorus]

Of course, but I wasn't referring to the numbers debate. I was talking about how some leftists will accept bourgeois lies (including about the economic nature of his regime) because arguing against them is too controversial for their tastes.

I think it runs a little deeper than a "numbers debate".

But yes, the one thing I always liked about Bordiga is that he was as "authoritarian" if not more "authoritarian" than any Stalinist (He viewed communism as being necessarily undemocratic and advocated "revolutionary totalitarianism" as well as having no problem with taking away the political rights of non-proletarian classes like the peasantry) and yet he didn't even view the soviet union as "state capitalist". He thought it was just capitalism plain and simple.

[khad]

But yes, the one thing I always liked about Bordiga is that he was as "authoritarian" if not more "authoritarian" than any Stalinist (He viewed communism as being necessarily undemocratic and advocated "revolutionary totalitarianism" as well as having no problem with taking away the political rights of non-proletarian classes like the peasantry) and yet he didn't even view the soviet union as "state capitalist". He thought it was just capitalism plain and simple.
So, in essence, you refuse to even attempt to understand the tricky theoretical and historical issues regarding the Soviet Union by simply accusing it as "capitalist," as if the Soviet economy somehow identical in its operations to that of the USA or UK.

Whatever makes you sleep better at night, bro.

[Zanthorus]

So, in essence, you refuse to even attempt to understand the tricky theoretical and historical issues regarding the Soviet Union by simply accusing it as "capitalist," as if the Soviet economy somehow identical in its operations to that of the USA or UK.

No, that's just what I liked about Bordiga. I don't necessarily agree with it.

[Fietsketting]

So, in essence, you refuse to even attempt to understand the tricky theoretical and historical issues regarding the Soviet Union by simply accusing it as "capitalist," as if the Soviet economy somehow identical in its operations to that of the USA or UK.



Theres an easy way to take any doubt away. Shout about communism and start a selfproclaimed party based aristocraty for the Greater Good of the Proletariat! Long live Mother Russia!


Right. :confused:

[HEAD ICE]

Amadeo Bordiga didn't merely reject the Soviet Union as "capitalist" and end it there, he subjected the Soviet Union to a rigorous critique. He didn't shun "theoretical and historical issues", that was his specialty. I'd argue he was the best Marxist theoretician of the 20th century.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

It doesn't matter how your idealism tries to see the real world; the real world after all is much different. Sure, on a theoretical plane you could see this as a very good action because it's an "anti-Stalinist" action by people trying to prove a point that they're stronger than their old "oppression", but the case is much different in reality. It's a racist, nationalist, and anti-communist move, and siding with it is a message of support to racism and anti-communism -- whether you like it or not. That's the problem with, as Parenti calls it, "leftist anti-communism". In typical liberal fear, leftists bow down to bourgeois lies and scream that "that was never true socialism!" and accept all of the bourgeoisie's lies about these regimes. So in the end, these leftists end up in the same lot with some of the worst reactionaries instead of taking up the charge of at least recognizing old socialist regimes. Whether you like it or not, in the real world, by actively saying "good" to this measure, you are siding unintentionally (I hope) with Saakashvilli and his thugs.

Sorry to say, but the real world requires more than theoretics and idealistic positions, because the real world is hardly about that.

Sorry comrade, but I don't think it is I who is living in fantasy. (I type this as humbly as possible, I honestly mean no disrespect)

[XxKrebsxX]

I can understand the reasoning behind the removal of the statue being absurd; however, how can anyone here NOT be happy about a psycho's statue being taken down?

The hell is wrong with you people?

[AK]

Sorry to say, but the real world requires more than theoretics and idealistic positions, because the real world is hardly about that.
Not to rain on your parade, but some would consider anything anti-capitalist to be idealistic and impossible. It's a matter of perspective.

I can understand the reasoning behind the removal of the statue being absurd; however, how can anyone here NOT be happy about a psycho's statue being taken down?

The hell is wrong with you people?
If the statue were taken down by a bunch of militant workers, I would applaud it. But since this was taken down by the Georgian government as some sort of nationalistic act to raise support for the status quo, I am against it.

Another reason why some Revlefters are against the removal of the statue is that they are Stalinists.

[XxKrebsxX]

Like I said, the reasoning behind the removal of the statue is absurd. I am in no way in hell disputing that. But really, this is Stalin we're talking about. Among others, he is one reason why a lot of people have such a negative view on socialism never mind he was, like I said, a god damn psycho.

[the last donut of the night]

I can understand the reasoning behind the removal of the statue being absurd; however, how can anyone here NOT be happy about a psycho's statue being taken down?

The hell is wrong with you people?

I've been trying to say this throughout the entire thread:

This is not something to be celebrated by leftists. Why, you may wonder? This is not whatever you would like it to be: "anti-stalinist" communists gladly taking down the statue of a "state-capitalist mass murderer" on the behalf of the oppressed working class of Georgia. This is a racist and anti-communist attempt by Georgian chauvinistic nationalists to displace any favorable and positive memories of the Soviet era and instead draw support toward Saakashvilli and his racist thugs. Get the picture. Sadly, and somewhat ironically, most 'anti-stalinism' is just pure anti-communism.

[the last donut of the night]

he was, like I said, a god damn psycho.

I'm not going to argue whether Stalin was a good leader or not here because that's not the point of the thread. I just have a small issue with what you wrote, and it has to do with historical materialism. If you're a genuine Marxist, and thus ascribe to the social-economic look of historical materialism, you should know that tragedies (so whatever you think of Stalin) are not borne out of crazy,'psycho', or power-hungry leaders. They are born out of the social and material conditions of their respective societies: the Holocaust didn't happen because Hitler was a maniac (as so many contemporary bourgeois historians love to say, following the 'Great Man' theory of history), but because the contradictions in German capitalism of the time needed it to happen. In the same way, the multiple genocides in the history of the Americas were not a product of Columbus, Cortes or any others being assholes, it's because booming and growing capitalism at the time needed them to happen.

Just a note for the future.

[Barry Lyndon]

I'm not going to argue whether Stalin was a good leader or not here because that's not the point of the thread. I just have a small issue with what you wrote, and it has to do with historical materialism. If you're a genuine Marxist, and thus ascribe to the social-economic look of historical materialism, you should know that tragedies (so whatever you think of Stalin) are not borne out of crazy,'psycho', or power-hungry leaders. They are born out of the social and material conditions of their respective societies: the Holocaust didn't happen because Hitler was a maniac (as so many contemporary bourgeois historians love to say, following the 'Great Man' theory of history), but because the contradictions in German capitalism of the time needed it to happen. In the same way, the multiple genocides in the history of the Americas were not a product of Columbus, Cortes or any others being assholes, it's because booming and growing capitalism at the time needed them to happen.

Just a note for the future.

This. I am quite hostile to Stalin and Stalinism, but Stalin was far from crazy. 'Crazy' or 'insane' is a label the bourgeoisie loves to stick onto this or that historical or political figure to avoid any analysis of their policies or motivations. Stalin arose to power due to the Soviet Union's isolation, backwardness and the failure of Russian revolution to spread to other nations.

[Sir Comradical]

The right-wing Georgian government which aspires to become a NATO member doesn't think too highly of Stalin?

No freakin' way!

It's really not a big deal, people who love and loathe Stalin both have fairly legitimate viewpoints.

[Coggeh]

Its a fucking statue !.... in Georgia.. not like its down the fucking road. get over it jesus christ...

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Its a fucking statue !.... in Georgia.. not like its down the fucking road. get over it jesus christ...

What does the geographical locality of the statue in question matter?

[Adi Shankara]

Its a fucking statue !.... in Georgia.. not like its down the fucking road. get over it jesus christ...

It's rooted in anti-Russian sentiment though, because they are patterning themselves off of Estonia, which done this exact same thing 3 years ago:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6602171.stm

and so they are doing it now as a sort of "Fuck You" to Russia, seeing as many people still revere Stalin for defending Russia during WWII.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Its a fucking statue

Smartest thing that I've seen written in this thread.