Perhaps this will put an end to Putin conspiracy theories

[khad]

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3A27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3A5d47479a-23ea-41cc-9a0d-2e8de47fbf49


The military was quick to respond. Two days later deputy defense minister and chief of armaments Vladimir Popovkin announced that a number of programs for development of new armor and artillery weapons will be cancelled. The main victim is the mysterious Object 195 program that was aimed to develop a new generation main battle tank to replace existing T-80 and T-90 tanks in the Russian Army. The new tank also dubbed T-95 has been developed by Nizhny Tagil Uralvagonzavod armor manufacturer in complete secrecy for more than 15 years. Popovkin said the military will focus on modernization of the T-90 instead.


Among other cancelled development programs are the 152 mm Koalitziya-SV self-propelled double-barrel artillery system, BMD-4 airborne combat vehicle, 125 mm Sprut-SD self-propelled anti-tank gun and BMPT tank support combat vehicle. All these programs were in the phase of prototype testing. Popovkin said these weapons hadn’t been included in the defense procurement program, but the government will reimburse the designers for their development expenses.T-95, Koalitziya-SV, BMD-4, Sprut-SD, BMPT canceled--basically the entire next generation of Russian armored vehicles. Of these the T-95 is the most tragic, since it was the next-generational tank to take protection and survivability to unprecedented level, with a unmanned autoloading turret separated from the crew with a armored bulkhead. It was originally proposed in the late 1980s and slated for introduction in 1994.

All of these vehicles were in working prototype phase. The BMPT was even in the process of being delivered to army units.

You hear so much about Mr. Putin, the scary KGB man, the militarist. It's clear by now how much of that is Western media bluster. The Russian military is going to come out of this financial crisis looking even worse for wear.

And you thought they already hit rock bottom.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

really, then explain this picture..

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/8250/putincarexpl.jpg

[Q]

T-95, Koalitziya-SV, BMD-4, Sprut-SD, BMPT canceled--basically the entire next generation of Russian armored vehicles. Of these the T-95 is the most tragic, since it was the next-generational tank to take protection and survivability to unprecedented level, with a unmanned autoloading turret separated from the crew with a armored bulkhead. It was originally proposed in the late 1980s and slated for introduction in 1994.

All of these vehicles were in working prototype phase. The BMPT was even in the process of being delivered to army units.

You hear so much about Mr. Putin, the scary KGB man, the militarist. It's clear by now how much of that is Western media bluster. The Russian military is going to come out of this financial crisis looking even worse for wear.

And you thought they already hit rock bottom.
No new generation of weaponry, no more glory for the Russian army. What a tragedy indeed...

Wait, what?

This is where the "anti-imperialists" fail. Claiming it is "progressive" that some regimes are positioned against the leading imperialist power comes down to cheering (or in this case mourning) for the regional imperialist powers, in every case a clear anti-working class reactionary dictatorship (Russia, China, Iran...). Talk about bankrupt politics.

[human strike]

Hear, hear, Q.

[Rusty Shackleford]

though new generational weapons would be interesting to see, Q is correct in that its no real loss that russia cant have any of them.

now, if it were the soviet union, that may be a different case.

[khad]

No new generation of weaponry, no more glory for the Russian army. What a tragedy indeed...

Wait, what?

This is where the "anti-imperialists" fail. Claiming it is "progressive" that some regimes are positioned against the leading imperialist power comes down to cheering (or in this case mourning) for the regional imperialist powers, in every case a clear anti-working class reactionary dictatorship (Russia, China, Iran...). Talk about bankrupt politics.
Quit putting words in my mouth, Q, no matter how good you are at doing that.

I am merely addressing the tendency on the part of some to ascribe way more power to Putin and his bunch without any basis in demonstrated fact. And I think this illustrates quite well the fundamental weakness of the Russian state.


though new generational weapons would be interesting to see, Q is correct in that its no real loss that russia cant have any of them.

now, if it were the soviet union, that may be a different case.
For me what is tragic is the cancellation of the T-95, one of the final projects of the USSR.

[Robocommie]

For me what is tragic is the cancellation of the T-95, one of the final projects of the USSR.

In the sense that it's the death of one more legacy of the USSR?

[Os Cangaceiros]

I haven't seen Putin portrayed as a militarist before. An ex-KGB slimeball who's political opponents have reason to worry about, maybe, but not a militarist.

[khad]

In the sense that it's the death of one more legacy of the USSR?
You got that right. It's quite sickening to see the level of anti-Soviet self-hatred in that country right now.

[Robocommie]

You got that right. It's quite sickening to see the level of anti-Soviet self-hatred in that country right now.

I had heard there's also a lot of Soviet nostalgia though, as a result of the bitter reflection on how everything didn't become so much better after the transition to a free market based economy. Edit: In fact it got quite a bit worse, ironic given what western capitalists said about life under the hammer and sickle.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Who cares. It's just a tank.

[khad]

I had heard there's also a lot of Soviet nostalgia though, as a result of the bitter reflection on how everything didn't become so much better after the transition to a free market based economy.
Also hyped up by the Western media. I'd say that a lot of the Russian mentality towards the past and present is scatterbrained and contradictory. Yes, there's nostalgia, but at the same time their brains are completely inseminated by the glitz of capitalist consumerism. There's more of a hard left there simply due to historical inertia, but overall that society is pretty apathetic.

[Robocommie]

Also hyped up by the Western media. I'd say that a lot of the Russian mentality towards the past and present is scatterbrained and contradictory. Yes, there's nostalgia, but at the same time their brains are completely inseminated by the glitz of capitalist consumerism. There's more of a hard left there simply due to historical inertia, but overall that society is pretty apathetic.

Apathetic, or cynical?

Incidentally, have you ever seen the film Okhno v Parizh/A Window to Paris?

[khad]

Apathetic, or cynical?
Is there a difference?

[Dimentio]

Well, all countries have it quite tough right now. Obama scrapped a lot of NASA projects recently, a move which I agree with. When people are threatened by starvation and homelessness, prestige projects amount to nothing.

On the merrier side, this reminds me of the days when someone shouted: "PUTIN IS A TRAITOR!!!!!!! AAARGHHH! CYBERSATANOSOVIET POWER! TANK ARMADAS! MIG KALASHNIKOV!"

[khad]

Well, all countries have it quite tough right now. Obama scrapped a lot of NASA projects recently, a move which I agree with. When people are threatened by starvation and homelessness, prestige projects amount to nothing.
Yeah, no shit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Winter_Olympics

[Robocommie]

Well, all countries have it quite tough right now. Obama scrapped a lot of NASA projects recently, a move which I agree with. When people are threatened by starvation and homelessness, prestige projects amount to nothing.

Heh, you will get those people though who will insist that NASA is not a prestige project, that space exploration has immediate and amazing benefits to us all here on the ground. I am not one of those people, mind.

[Os Cangaceiros]

On the merrier side, this reminds me of the days when someone shouted: "PUTIN IS A TRAITOR!!!!!!! AAARGHHH! CYBERSATANOSOVIET POWER! TANK ARMADAS! MIG KALASHNIKOV!"

I think a lot of leftists have Russophilia (not naming any names, mind you). Reminds me of when Oi Oi Oi said that he wanted to get a tattoo of Russian letters on his back of his name or something; not because he was Russian or anything, mind you, just cuz he thought that Russian lettering looked kewl and communist. :rolleyes:

[Dimentio]

Yeah, no shit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Winter_Olympics

Putin is most likely the greatest oligarch in the history of the Russian Federation and I have absolutely no reason to defend that man, but I would be more upset if he slashed the few benefits the Russian people still enjoy than if he is cancelling a tank.

The world will not be changed by an Anti-American alliance. If the USA is losing after Central Asia and the Middle East has been devastated, the world will just see a return to business as usual under Chinese dominance. If we all are lucky and survive a nuclear war that is.

[Robocommie]

I think a lot of leftists have Russophilia (not naming any names, mind you). Reminds me of when Oi Oi Oi said that he wanted to get a tattoo of Russian letters on his back of his name or something; not because he was Russian or anything, mind you, just cuz he thought that Russian lettering looked kewl and communist. :rolleyes:

Likewise, I would like you all to start referring to me by my new revolutionary name, Nguyen Hap Trang.

Not really.

[khad]

Putin is most likely the greatest oligarch in the history of the Russian Federation and I have absolutely no reason to defend that man, but I would be more upset if he slashed the few benefits the Russian people still enjoy than if he is cancelling a tank.
And if you were reading between the lines you'd realize that the reorientation of Russian policy post-Putin reflects the ascendancy of the neo-Atlanticists under Medvedev. That man is actually openly hostile to the Soviet past and is basically the sober version of Yeltsin. It's quite telling that the Russian government couldn't spare any funds to modernize the army that found itself technologically outclassed by Georgia, and yet they spare no expense when preparing for the Olympics, something that will undoubtedly leave Sochi and Krasnodar Krai with horrendous mountains of debt for years to come.

There is no anti-imperialism on the part of the Russian state, because whatever halfassed moves Putin made in that direction have been wiped out by the new head of state.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/25/world/europe/25prexy.html

[Robocommie]

You know, speaking of Russian military technology being outclassed by Georgia, I read recently that during the conflict with Georgia, Russian MIG fighter-bombers went on a mission to actually bomb the very factory that those very aircraft had been built in in Soviet times.

It was so ironic to me. Somehow tragic, too.

[pranabjyoti]

Also hyped up by the Western media. I'd say that a lot of the Russian mentality towards the past and present is scatterbrained and contradictory. Yes, there's nostalgia, but at the same time their brains are completely inseminated by the glitz of capitalist consumerism. There's more of a hard left there simply due to historical inertia, but overall that society is pretty apathetic.
Are you yourself Russian and a citizen of Russian Federation at present?

[Dimentio]

And if you were reading between the lines you'd realize that the reorientation of Russian policy post-Putin reflects the ascendancy of the neo-Atlanticists under Medvedev. That man is actually openly hostile to the Soviet past and is basically the sober version of Yeltsin. It's quite telling that the Russian government couldn't spare any funds to modernize the army that found itself technologically outclassed by Georgia, and yet they spare no expense when preparing for the Olympics, something that will undoubtedly leave Sochi and Krasnodar Krai with horrendous mountains of debt for years to come.

There is no anti-imperialism on the part of the Russian state, because whatever halfassed moves Putin made in that direction have been wiped out by the new head of state.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/25/world/europe/25prexy.html



I can see myself tucked in and fast asleep,
looking all peaceful, but in my dreams I weep.
from far up I'm looking down upon myself,
and I wonder who it is that's lying there.
I feel like in a world all beside myself,
afraid I won't wake up, with no one there to care.

I know someone used to watch me in my sleep,
but some things seem just impossible to keep.
I fight hard to bring it back into my mind,
but to no use, it all seems to be a blank.
I wonder what it was that had me defined,
but one thing I know: I have myself to thank.

I feel like I have amnesia,
but I know it's myself I've lost.
I wonder what's happened so far,
and what might have been the cost.

I'm not sure I want to know
any of the things I've done.
I don't know yet where to go,
but I'll accept my past is gone.

I feel like I have amnesia,
and I've missed the heavenly host.
I'm surprised I've come this far,
living without what I need most.

I don't think I can go back,
to the things that were before.
though I'm now always wearing black,
I don't bemoan my life of yore.

I wake up and feel like I should be at home,
but I do not know this, it's not where I belong.
my head is dazed and my mind is all confused,
and I'm not quite sure that I'm really there.
but the mirror shows me looking out, bemused,
into a blank place that could be anywhere.

I feel like I have been left out in the cold,
and it hurts to know that this is all my fault.
I leave this place to find familiar ground,
but the whole world seems to have been rearranged.
now my former self is nowhere to be found,
and I know that it's myself that's changed.

The mental state of Russia today.

[khad]

No, but having roots in the combloc, it's something I've observed across many societies now turned capitalist.

[pranabjyoti]

No, but having roots in the combloc, it's something I've observed across many societies now turned capitalist.
Which part of the society?

[bcbm]

For me what is tragic is the cancellation of the T-95, one of the final projects of the USSR.

yeah, what a fucking shame they won't have a tank.

[Die Neue Zeit]

This is where the "anti-imperialists" fail. Claiming it is "progressive" that some regimes are positioned against the leading imperialist power comes down to cheering (or in this case mourning) for the regional imperialist powers, in every case a clear anti-working class reactionary dictatorship (Russia, China, Iran...). Talk about bankrupt politics.

Careful. We're talking about a very non-revolutionary situation here with these inter-imperialist rivalries. Paul Cockshott, said for example that he would prefer a Chinese victory over the US in a military conflict over Taiwan. You, of course, remember our little discussion on "proletarian nukes." Above all this, there are "democratic" imperialist powers like Germany and Japan, and now Brazil.

Because show-off military weapons are the subject here, I should however say that I'm not weeping the least bit. I would mourn for Russia, however, if the arms production of AK-47s and AK-74s were to cease.

[Die Neue Zeit]

And if you were reading between the lines you'd realize that the reorientation of Russian policy post-Putin reflects the ascendancy of the neo-Atlanticists under Medvedev. That man is actually openly hostile to the Soviet past and is basically the sober version of Yeltsin. It's quite telling that the Russian government couldn't spare any funds to modernize the army that found itself technologically outclassed by Georgia, and yet they spare no expense when preparing for the Olympics, something that will undoubtedly leave Sochi and Krasnodar Krai with horrendous mountains of debt for years to come.

There is no anti-imperialism on the part of the Russian state, because whatever halfassed moves Putin made in that direction have been wiped out by the new head of state.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/25/world/europe/25prexy.html

There never was anti-imperialism even under Putin.

I do think Medvedev's appearance in the US was for show. He is, indeed, the liberal to Putin's national-conservative unity fetish. I have yet to see if Medvedev is pulling close in his game with Putin, because all the talk right now has Putin at #1. In any event, Russian Marxist Boris Kagarlitsky is correct to point out that Russia is really lagging further behind the west, returning back to its laggard late-czarist ways.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Careful. We're talking about a very non-revolutionary situation here with these inter-imperialist rivalries. Paul Cockshott, said for example that he would prefer a Chinese victory over the US in a military conflict over Taiwan. You, of course, remember our little discussion on "proletarian nukes."

Because show-off military weapons are the subject here, I should however say that I'm not weeping the least bit. I would mourn for Russia, however, if the arms production of AK-47s and AK-74s were to cease.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

sorry that this post really doesnt add to the discussion, i just want to point out what is funny in this post

[Die Neue Zeit]

He's a real-life poster on this board. :rolleyes:

[Rusty Shackleford]

He's a real-life poster on this board. :rolleyes:


my apologies to paul but cockshott just makes me think of dickpunch.
EDIT: im not the most mature of people.


anyways.

i thought russia produced a black eagle as seen here in figure 1:

figure 1
http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/MBT/640.jpg

for export.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

Neither of them were mass produced, most only reached prototype stage. Having a sad fetish for Soviet/Russian military hardware myself, I find this news a little disheartening, but you had to see it coming... this crap has been on the drawing board for decades, it was never going to see the light in modern day Russia. At any rate, the lack of technical advancement in the current Russian Army isn't something to cry over, wherever they decide to attack in the future you can guarantee it will be for mere neo-imperialist purposes.

[khad]

Because show-off military weapons are the subject here, I should however say that I'm not weeping the least bit. I would mourn for Russia, however, if the arms production of AK-47s and AK-74s were to cease.
The Russian state armory has gone bankrupt:
http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/Content.aspx?id=82062 (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/30/update-on-the-izhmash-bankruptcy/)


Izhmash, the biggest maker of Kalashnikov assault rifles, faces bankruptcy over unpaid debts.

The arbitration court in the Russian region of Udmurtia, where Izhmash is based, will consider a bankruptcy lawsuit filed by creditor OOO Gremikha on October 7th. Izhmash owes Gremikha more than $13 million, according to Izhmash’s Web site.

Izhmash, where Mikhail Kalashnikov, 89, invented the AK-47 in the 1940s, is a unit of Russian Technologies Corporation, a state holding company with mining, arms and automotive assets.

“A special commission at Russian Technologies is currently reviewing the financial situation of Izhmash and will issue a press release when its work is finished,” Russian Technologies spokesman Valery Kartavtsev said by phone in Moscow, declining to elaborate. Alexander Baditsa, a spokesman for Izhmash, declined to comment.
They say they're still filling orders, but we don't know how this will shake out long term.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Remember, china still produces kalashnikovs. albeit modified a bit. and even if izhmash goes under, its not like you cant make a new one ever again.

[khad]

Remember, china still produces kalashnikovs. albeit modified a bit. and even if izhmash goes under, its not like you cant make a new one ever again.
You know where those AKs went last time? To the pederasts of the Mujahideen. The Chinese chipped in 200-400 million dollars of equipment for the CIA's dirty war.

[Rusty Shackleford]

You know where those AKs went last time? To the pederasts of the Mujahideen. The Chinese chipped in 200-400 million dollars of equipment for the CIA's dirty war.

and the RAF used UZIs against cappies.

and Iran uses UZIs as well.

and the July 27th Movement used surplus american weapons.

it doesnt mean shit where guns come from, only how they are used.
in the case of the Mujahaideen getting their hands on AKs well, thats a problem. that very same weapon though was most likely being sent to the DPRK as well, and possibly vietnam(although im not too sure on this only because PRC and PRV did have a little border spat in the late 70s/80s)

China wasnt the greatest on the international political scene in the 80s and certainly not today, sadly.

[Sasha]

as far as i know the "conspiracy theory" against putin was that he and his FSB buddys blew up hundreds of their own citizens to have an excuse to invade tsjetsnie not that he made some fancy new weapons.

[Dimentio]

I think a lot of leftists have Russophilia (not naming any names, mind you). Reminds me of when Oi Oi Oi said that he wanted to get a tattoo of Russian letters on his back of his name or something; not because he was Russian or anything, mind you, just cuz he thought that Russian lettering looked kewl and communist. :rolleyes:

The guy who wrote that was/is no leftist. He was a national bolshevik who then morphed into a nazi and from a nazi into a self-proclaimed leader of a doomsday cult which wants to blow up the Earth. :lol:

[Die Neue Zeit]

I thought he was a Greek Grantite. :confused:

[Q]

I thought he was a Greek Grantite. :confused:

Living in Canada yes (although he was planning to move to Greece back then). I'm not sure what Dimentio is talking about.

[Dimentio]

I thought he was a Greek Grantite. :confused:

I wasn't talking about OI OI OI.

[pranabjyoti]

Actually, this can be easily predicted. Imperialist countries, specially US for a long time have supply of brains across the world and this line is still open wide. But, being a nationalist, you have to depend on yourself alone. So, though Putin's nationalistic view may done some less damage than the Yeltsin era, but that process is continuing and will continue in future. And Russia have no hope getting brain supply from around the world like USA and Uk and other imperialist countries. I am curious to see when the Russian nationalists will understand this fact.