Sex Changes

[guybob1000]

I was looking at some before/after pictures of people who have gone through a sex change and it made me realize that women and men are really more alike than we usually care to think. Most of these men look like any other woman once they go through the hormone changes and all. Interesting to think that so many of our differences are just what hormones are pumping through the body.

http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2009/men-who-became-women-p1.php

[Dimentio]

Think, I initially was about to trash this thread in the thought that it was started by a spambot.

[Sasha]

thread moved to discrimination proper

[RedAnarchist]

Have you seen the usual idiot comments? The purpose of that site seems to be laughing at these women simply because they didn't want to live in the wrong body.

A lot of features can be found in both male and female people that are usually seen by society as "belonging" to one sex or the other, such as wide hips or a long nose. Also, because the feotus starts off as a default clump of cells, around half becoming male part way through the pregnancy, a lot of female features are found on males - males have breasts (some men can even lactate) and even a tiny amount of mammary tissue. The penis is pretty much an overdeveloped clitoris.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I was looking at some before/after pictures of people who have gone through a sex change and it made me realize that women and men are really more alike than we usually care to think. Most of these men look like any other woman once they go through the hormone changes and all. Interesting to think that so many of our differences are just what hormones are pumping through the body.

http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2009/men-who-became-women-p1.php

We're not men, we're women born into the wrong fucking body. I never was a man, I was always a woman. To refer to us as "men" is extremely offensive. I am just like any other woman and what body I was born into doesn't make me man even though it was a male body. So don't fucking refer to us MTFs as "most of these men".

[Trans]

We're not men, we're women born into the wrong fucking body. I never was a man, I was always a woman. To refer to us as "men" is extremely offensive. I am just like any other woman and what body I was born into doesn't make me man even though it was a male body. So don't fucking refer to us MTFs as "most of these men".

The original user is by all appearances clearly supportive of transsexuals. She or he didn't mean to slight anyone. Why not be more approachable next time instead of going off like a deflated balloon? Most people are simply ignorant about how to address someone who has or is in the process of going through a sex procedure.

[CountryKid]

Not sure what to think on this.

As far as I know, Men who do all these surgeries etc. are still Biological males with lots of surgeries etc..
:confused:

[RedAnarchist]

Not sure what to think on this.

As far as I know, Men who do all these surgeries etc. are still Biological males with lots of surgeries etc..
:confused:

Did you even read this thread? They are not men, they are women. Yes, they have a Y chromosome (which doesn't matter), but their physical body is changed to fit their mental gender identity.

You are male, right? I assume you are cisgender (your sex matches your gender identity). Now, imagine waking up tomorrow morning with a female body, with everyone else seeing you as female, society treating you as a female etc, even though you are a man. That what it is like for transsexual people, and for them it is very painful to be trapped in the wrong body.

[RedAnarchist]

The original user is by all appearances clearly supportive of transsexuals. She or he didn't mean to slight anyone. Why not be more approachable next time instead of going off like a deflated balloon? Most people are simply ignorant about how to address someone who has or is in the process of going through a sex procedure.

It's probably because transmen and transwomen have to put up with ignorant comments so they aren't exactly to blame when they perceive a statement as transphobic even if it wasn't intended to be.

[CountryKid]

Did you even read this thread? They are not men, they are women. Yes, they have a Y chromosome (which doesn't matter), but their physical body is changed to fit their mental gender identity.

You are male, right? I assume you are cisgender (your sex matches your gender identity). Now, imagine waking up tomorrow morning with a female body, with everyone else seeing you as female, society treating you as a female etc, even though you are a man. That what it is like for transsexual people, and for them it is very painful to be trapped in the wrong body.

Yes, I read through the op as well as the following posts. I only looked at 4-5 of Ops pictures though.

Yes, I am a Male. I can't imagine that, not sure how I would.

What makes one a Male?

[counterblast]

The original user is by all appearances clearly supportive of transsexuals. She or he didn't mean to slight anyone. Why not be more approachable next time instead of going off like a deflated balloon? Most people are simply ignorant about how to address someone who has or is in the process of going through a sex procedure.


That does not make it any less offensive.

If people are uncomfortable being called out by someone of an oppressed group who feels oppressed by their words or actions, then they are not allies.

[counterblast]

Not sure what to think on this.

As far as I know, Men who do all these surgeries etc. are still Biological males with lots of surgeries etc..
:confused:

Patriarchy ftw... :rolleyes:

Are people who have an artificial heart, biologically dead people with a lot of surgery?



What makes one a Male?

Social constructions and self-identity?

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

It's probably because transmen and transwomen have to put up with ignorant comments so they aren't exactly to blame when they perceive a statement as transphobic even if it wasn't intended to be.

This is true, though some (who are more affluent) have less to deal with. Personally, I envy them. They can afford FFS, Top Surgery, Bottom Surgery, etc.

I'm tempted to go D.I.Y. for an Orchie.

[Sasha]

This is true, though some (who are more affluent) have less to deal with. Personally, I envy them. They can afford FFS, Top Surgery, Bottom Surgery, etc.

I'm tempted to go D.I.Y. for an Orchie.


shit, trans-surgery is not covered by your health insurance over where you are?
that sucks. i feel sorry for you.
makes my glad to live in one of those places glen beck keeps calling communist.
ever thought about moving? if you marry an simpathetic dutch or swede your surgery would be free after a few years.

[CountryKid]

Patriarchy ftw... :rolleyes:

Are people who have an artificial heart, biologically dead people with a lot of surgery?




Social constructions and self-identity?

I would consider them living. I see no reason not too.

Getting a heart transplant, and removing your genitalia are completely different.

A male, who has his heart transplanted, is still a male..


Are you saying there is no difference between Men and Women?

[Sasha]

yes there is

but
(and this is going to be a very short 101, i'm sure someone alse will have time to explain in detail)
the biological definition of gender is not the only (or even most comon) one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I would consider them living. I see no reason not too.

Getting a heart transplant, and removing your genitalia are completely different.

A male, who has his heart transplanted, is still a male..


Are you saying there is no difference between Men and Women?

It's not a removal to have an outy turned into an inny. It's a mutilation and inversion. Someday I will hopefully have mine done. It just costs a lot. But I have hated what's down there everyday of my entire life.

[counterblast]

Are you saying there is no difference between Men and Women?

There are differences between everyone, regardless of gender classification. I can assure you there are as many men that I have similarities to as there are women.

And what I'm saying is -- sex is an inconvenient biological factor, just like a cleft lip.

[Obrero Rebelde]

I like the line spoken by the drag queen out of "Car Wash" --

"I'm more man than you'll ever be
and more woman than you'll ever get!"

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I like the line spoken by the drag queen out of "Car Wash" --

"I'm more man than you'll ever be
and more woman than you'll ever get!"

I like the line sang by the Transsexual out of the movie "Better Than Chocolate"--

"I'm not a fucking drag queen. I'm in another bracket. What you see before you is not some midnight racket."

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

shit, trans-surgery is not covered by your health insurance over where you are?
that sucks. i feel sorry for you.
makes my glad to live in one of those places glen beck keeps calling communist.
ever thought about moving? if you marry an simpathetic dutch or swede your surgery would be free after a few years.

I wish I could. I'm completely uninsured.

[CountryKid]

Damn this is confusing.

Be yourself.

[9]

The purpose of that site seems to be laughing at these women simply because they didn't want to live in the wrong body.


We're not men, we're women born into the wrong fucking body.

I hope this isn't totally out of line, but I do want to say that I'm very uncomfortable with statements like this. In another thread on this topic on here recently maldoror and Marsella made some interesting points that I actually tend to agree with. When you talk about "a woman being born in the wrong body" aren't you just completely capitulating to sexist essentialism? Aren't you basically just reinforcing the sexist notion that the behavior of a person is contingent upon the genitalia that they're born with?

[leftace53]

Now, imagine waking up tomorrow morning with a female body, with everyone else seeing you as female, society treating you as a female etc, even though you are a man. That what it is like for transsexual people, and for them it is very painful to be trapped in the wrong body.

How much does society's reaction, and different treatment of the different genders affect this feeling? If society treated both genders the same, would we even have the concept of being "pigeon holed" into a specific gender? How much of this could be eliminated in a communist society?

@OP Link: Wow, I knew science could handle gender reassignment, but I had no idea about the extent of it! I would have never guessed those women were men, they have very few masculine figures and frankly they are smokin hot.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I hope this isn't totally out of line, but I do want to say that I'm very uncomfortable with statements like this. In another thread on this topic on here recently maldoror and Marsella made some interesting points that I actually tend to agree with. When you talk about "a woman being born in the wrong body" aren't you just completely capitulating to sexist essentialism? Aren't you basically just reinforcing the sexist notion that the behavior of a person is contingent upon the genitalia that they're born with?

I'm not just talking about "a woman being born in the wrong body", I'm talking about myself and personal life experience as someone born into such a situation. Your political statements about "capitulating to sexist essentialism" doesn't belong on my body, but my right to self determination does. Your use of my personal statement about my situation is inappropriate.



Damn this is confusing.

Be yourself.

I am being myself, part of this is my need to transition. I am being the woman I am.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

How much does society's reaction, and different treatment of the different genders affect this feeling? If society treated both genders the same, would we even have the concept of being "pigeon holed" into a specific gender? How much of this could be eliminated in a communist society?

It would not affect the feeling. I can tell you based on my life experience that this is completely internal. The only thing that society can effect is how scary it is to come out and be myself. The whole idea of pinning my gender incongruence to society is so inaccurate.

[9]

Your political statements about "capitulating to sexist essentialism" doesn't belong on my body, but my right to self determination does. Your use of my personal statement about my situation is inappropriate.

No, but when people (transexual or otherwise) perpetuate oppressive standards about what constitutes being a woman - sexist essentialist standards - it does effect me as a woman who is opposed to these standards.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

No, but when people (transexual or otherwise) perpetuate oppressive standards about what constitutes being a woman - sexist essentialist standards - it does effect me as a woman who is opposed to these standards.

I'm not applying those standards to you and I can apply any standards that I feel are right for me to me. Personally you have no right to infringe upon that right to self determination. If I want to be a homemaker/housewife and end up with someone who wants to be the bread winner and wants me as his wife that would also be not within your place to tell me and that guy that We can't because tbh, it's none of your business.

I have gender incongruence and back in highschool alone, attempted suicide at least ten times because society told me to be a boy. Now you want to say I perpetuate oppressive standards?

[leftace53]

It would not affect the feeling. I can tell you based on my life experience that this is completely internal. The only thing that society can effect is how scary it is to come out and be myself. The whole idea of pinning my gender incongruence to society is so inaccurate.

If you don't mind my asking, could you describe the feeling? I'm just wondering what would tip one off that it is their gender that doesn't "feel right" (in crude terms), as opposed to something more general like feeling uncomfortable in your skin. If gender is a social construct (masculinity and femininity), then if we dismantled that, how would you discern that it is still the issue that you are a "female" in a "male's" body?

[GreenCommunism]

indeed such of these photos are shocking, which one is after the operation left or right? it's kinda hard to tell.

transgender issue can be very hard to understand for us. there is a quick assumption for us that transgenders are already full of problem and that they search for a quick fix that they never get. however studies show very well that sex surgery is not a placebo.

it is in fact, damn near impossible for us to understand that someone could hate his genitals. i often say that i wish i am was a woman ,but it is mostly for things considered negative for woman such as giving birth. hating my genitals or not feeling at home in my body is out of the question. we tend to believe that if i was born a male or a female, we wouldn't care either way. and transgenders obviously care about being born the wrong gender.

i would like to discuss about skin color change, someone talked about it in another thread i found he had a point even though he was pretty offensive to transgenders to flat out compare them equally. is there any comparison? such as a white or a black person changing race and feeling better psychologically? that said i just found out that michael jackson did not change his skin color to get better ratings unlike most of what people think( at least outside the US he is shown as a example of US racism) he actually had a genetical disease and used an operation to even it out. it might be a way to cover it up but he might be legit.

oh and last thing, i pretty much always said i wouldn't have sex with a transexual. but DAMN,some of those girls are pretty hot. i guess i would be reticent to the idea, and can understand people like that. but some of those girls or man are model material. are there any known cases of transexuals being models?

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

If you don't mind my asking, could you describe the feeling? I'm just wondering what would tip one off that it is their gender that doesn't "feel right" (in crude terms), as opposed to something more general like feeling uncomfortable in your skin. If gender is a social construct (masculinity and femininity), then if we dismantled that, how would you discern that it is still the issue that you are a "female" in a "male's" body?

I personally don't consider it an issue of wrong gender so much as an issue of right gender in the wrong body. It's kind of difficult and painful to go too far into it. I think that the concept of gender is far from social construct because then trans folks would only exist in modern euro-centric societies. I think hijras, two-spirits, muxes, etc. from centuries ago in their various cultures/nations/civilizations/tribes would take issue with a claim of social construct. The gender binary is societal, gender itself isn't completely. Society didn't make gender, society just dictates how we are supposed to view such a concept.

I kind of just always knew I was a woman in spite of what society tried to tell me. Society couldn't successfully convince me that I was a boy, but they got me to hate myself for a long time and hide it out of shame. Coming out and starting my transition is why I'm alive typing this response to you.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

oh and last thing, i pretty much always said i wouldn't have sex with a transexual. but DAMN,some of those girls are pretty hot. i guess i would be reticent to the idea, and can understand people like that. but some of those girls or man are model material. are there any known cases of transexuals being models?

Amanda Lepore: model, dance music artist and glamorous inspiration to myself.

[leftace53]

The gender binary is societal, gender itself isn't completely. Society didn't make gender, society just dictates how we are supposed to view such a concept.


I know I won't truly be able to understand the thought process that goes on during such a process, but I definitely appreciate the explanation. I think that sentence above is fascinating, and shall dwell upon it further.

Also, since greencommunism brought it up, why is there a stigma against having sex with a transsexual? I can't say I've had any issue with the thought of having sex with a transsexual, so does it stem from the stigma of the person having a sex change undergoing such procedure? Does it undermine some sort of sexual norm otherwise?

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Also, since greencommunism brought it up, why is there a stigma against having sex with a transsexual? I can't say I've had any issue with the thought of having sex with a transsexual, so does it stem from the stigma of the person having a sex change undergoing such procedure? Does it undermine some sort of sexual norm otherwise?

The stigma has to do with people's desire for everything in the world to be consistent and simple. When someone doesn't fit within the gender binary the infantile, overly simplistic sense of reality that makes up their world is fucked up and threatens their understandings of words like straight and gay. This is all just because some of us are born into the wrong bodies so if a guy were to sleep with me, that would make me straight and if a girl were to sleep with me that'd make me lesbian. But that's beside the point because I'm an omnisexual, well I think I am but who I am attracted to is harder for me to understand than my gender identity.

[counterblast]

I hope this isn't totally out of line, but I do want to say that I'm very uncomfortable with statements like this. In another thread on this topic on here recently maldoror and Marsella made some interesting points that I actually tend to agree with. When you talk about "a woman being born in the wrong body" aren't you just completely capitulating to sexist essentialism? Aren't you basically just reinforcing the sexist notion that the behavior of a person is contingent upon the genitalia that they're born with?

Having a sex change has nothing to do with essentializing womanhood, any more than any other activity.

When I wear make-up, I am not essentializing womanhood or saying "This is the only way to be a real woman." I am simply caking my face in paint.

When a trans woman gets a surgery, she is not essentializing womanhood by saying "This is the only way to be a real woman". She is simply changing her body.

I am not illegitimizing women who do not wear make-up with my mascara, nor are post-op trans women illegitimizing pre-op trans women (or those trans women who do not seek surgery) who do not have vaginas or breasts -- the standards set forth by the patriarchy do that.

Does my make-up wearing and Experanza's surgery happen to fall in line with social conventions of womanhood? Sure, but being radical isn't about perpetuating binaries by exchanging one oppressive norm for another (ie: lets all stop wearing make-up! lets all stop getting sex changes!); its about women liberating themselves from all oppressive expectations.




If society treated both genders the same, would we even have the concept of being "pigeon holed" into a specific gender? How much of this could be eliminated in a communist society?

So basically what you're saying is; "Trans men, trans women, and genderqueer people should just deal with their body dysphoria until we live in a Marxist utopia."

Thats great, but those of us with immediate concerns, don't always have the luxury of waiting until the revolution comes (ie: until the mostly straight, white middle class internet Marxists have time to theorize enough to make it come about.).

---

And I'm not going to make a lot of friends with this one, but;
A trans person just existing day to day or walking down the street in our patriarchal, transphobic society is creating more revolution today than all of the works of Marx and Trotsky combined.

So all cisgendered leftists and especially cis men, need check their fucking privilege, stop with the trans bashing, and realize that as cis people, while we have the luxury of theorizing the existence of transphobia and the legitimacy of sex changes as people who will never face transphobia or never need a sex change, a trans person is murdered every six days for simply walking down the street.

You want to end the patriarchy and oppression of women? Then start by respecting trans women.

[black magick hustla]

[QUOTE=counterblast;1783151]Having a sex change has nothing to do with essentializing womanhood, any more than any other activity.
/QUOTE]

Of course not, but when you push arguments like "I am a woman born in a man/s body" it is the quintessential essentialist argument and in fact, it is a deeply conservative argument.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Of course not, but when you push arguments like "I am a woman born in a man/s body" it is the quintessential essentialist argument and in fact, it is a deeply conservative argument.

If you're going to quote me use the original statement word for word. In the statement quoted I didn't say man's body I said that I was "born into the wrong fucking body"
I'd say that arguing for the gender binary is a deeply conservative argument. So lets take it a step further, slap a black triangle on me.

-------
Counterblast:
You rock!

[CountryKid]

Yes, I had to leave here because I don't understand, and probably never will.


I love crossdressing, but don't hate my genitals. Quite the opposite.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Yes, I had to leave here because I don't understand, and probably never will.
That is one hell of an attitude to take...



I love crossdressing, but don't hate my genitals. Quite the opposite.

I'm not a crossdresser but some of my friends are. I'm a transsexual but some of my friends like to just dress up and if thats what works for them, I'm happy for them. I'd say the opposite end of the spectrum of gender to me would actually be an FTM as they are literally going the opposite direction from me.

[9]

Having a sex change has nothing to do with essentializing womanhood, any more than any other activity.

I have never said it does. If people want to have a sex change for whatever reason, fine - that is entirely their choice and I'm not going to judge them for it at all. I am not raising an issue with people having sex changes, but rather, with some of the arguments which are frequently used to justify it. I think that many of the arguments are capitulations to sexist essentialism.


When I wear make-up, I am not essentializing womanhood or saying "This is the only way to be a real woman." I am simply caking my face in paint.

When a trans woman gets a surgery, she is not essentializing womanhood by saying "This is the only way to be a real woman". She is simply changing her body.

I am not illegitimizing women who do not wear make-up with my mascara, nor are post-op trans women illegitimizing pre-op trans women (or those trans women who do not seek surgery) who do not have vaginas or breasts -- the standards set forth by the patriarchy do that.

Does my make-up wearing and Experanza's surgery happen to fall in line with social conventions of womanhood? Sure, but being radical isn't about perpetuating binaries by exchanging one oppressive norm for another (ie: lets all stop wearing make-up! lets all stop getting sex changes!); its about women liberating themselves from all oppressive expectations.
I wear makeup as well. I wear it because I like the way it looks, though there is no doubt that expectations play into it too. I don't use sexist essentialist arguments to justify wearing it, though.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I have never said it does. If people want to have a sex change for whatever reason, fine - that is entirely their choice and I'm not going to judge them for it at all. I am not raising an issue with people having sex changes, but rather, with some of the arguments which are frequently used to justify it. I think that many of the arguments are capitulations to sexist essentialism.
I wear makeup as well. I wear it because I like the way it looks, though there is no doubt that expectations play into it too. I don't use sexist essentialist arguments to justify wearing it, though.

So you have a problem with me stating the fact of my own dysphoric feelings towards my own body? How about you keep your ideology off my body?

[9]

*sigh* where is Marsella when I need her?

[RedAnarchist]

*sigh* where is Marsella when I need her?

What would she bring to the discussion?

[leftace53]

So basically what you're saying is; "Trans men, trans women, and genderqueer people should just deal with their body dysphoria until we live in a Marxist utopia."



Thats nowhere near what I said, and I have no idea how you even came up with that. I was trying to understand where this dysphoria comes from, and if being "pigeon-holed" into a gender would cease in a communist society, I nowhere said for people to "suck it up".

[9]

What would she bring to the discussion?

A more coherent way of making the points I'm trying to make.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Thats nowhere near what I said, and I have no idea how you even came up with that. I was trying to understand where this dysphoria comes from, and if being "pigeon-holed" into a gender would cease in a communist society, I nowhere said for people to "suck it up".

Us trans folks existed before modern capitalism and will continue to exist after. We are not some symptom of modern society's patriarchy or any bullshit like that. Patriarchal society only causes certain problems like the bigotry we have to deal with. It causes us problems, yes, but does NOT cause our gender identity.


A more coherent way of making the points I'm trying to make.

Great! Get her to do that because my apparently uneducated mexican tranny brain is too low on the theoretical scale to understand your intellect. Oh little old dumb me. :rolleyes:

[Robocommie]

Great! Get her to do that because my apparently uneducated mexican tranny brain is too low on the theoretical scale to understand your intellect. Oh little old dumb me. :rolleyes:

You know if anything she was criticizing herself for not being able to better elucidate on what she was trying to say. You're being extremely uncharitable in interpreting what she said.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Robo, Maybe you're right. I'm used to people fucking with me so I'm automatically on the defense.

9, I sowwiez... :(

[9]

^It's all good, I can certainly relate to getting overly defensive about sensitive subjects. Robocommie was correct about the intention of my statement, though - that I am not articulating my views on the subject as well or as clearly as I'd like to be, and that as a result some of my arguments are perhaps coming across as being offensive or transphobic or whatev, when that is not at all the intention.

[CountryKid]

Sorry i cant quote on my phone for some reason.


You mentioned it's a hell of an attitude to take, or something of that nature.

I don't know what it's like to feel like im the wrong gender, and probably never will.

Im not sure how that's strange...

[Il Medico]

I don't know what it's like to feel like im the wrong gender, and probably never will.

gender=/= sex. Sex is a physical trait like hair color, or complexion. Gender is not. Esperanza Xochitl was not born a man, but rather she has always been a woman.

[Hiero]

If you're going to quote me use the original statement word for word. In the statement quoted I didn't say man's body I said that I was "born into the wrong fucking body"


This is an essentialist arguement. No one is "born into" anything. Being born is a biological act, constituting the "I" that means coming an individual in a symbolic system comes after the birth. Basically the "I" didn't exist before birth. A human animal is born and then they constitute themselves and can declare "I" (not freely though always within an impossible decision). There is however a symbolic network waiting to structure this constitution and also accept the animal into the symbolic network by first declaring "it's a boy/girl" "his/her name is".

If people later choose to fashion and alter their body (everyone does at some degreee) it was never predifined before birth. It is a choice made through the individuals interaction with society and others.

I think that is the point that 9 and Maldoror were getting to. I don't think anyone was having a dig at you, but these theories come from post-structuralist work. The claim "i was born into the wrong body" can be problematic for when trying to argue against essentialist thinking.

[GreenCommunism]

hmm do transgender think they have a female brain and are born in a man body for example? this is exactly what a teacher told me about homosexuals. so is it that fact? are there any study that would show this, is there any recognizable difference between men and woman brain. i thought men had better spatial skills ( orientation)

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

hmm do transgender think they have a female brain and are born in a man body for example? this is exactly what a teacher told me about homosexuals. so is it that fact? are there any study that would show this, is there any recognizable difference between men and woman brain. i thought men had better spatial skills ( orientation)

Not homosexuals, that's sexual orientation (who you are attracted to)
Transsexuality has nothing to do with sexual attraction and has everything to do with gender identity. Some transwomen identify as straight and hence like men. Some transwomen identify as lesbian and are attracted to women. Some Transwomen are bisexual and some are omni/pansexual.

Part of it has to do with the hormone wash in the womb pre-birth.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

This is an essentialist arguement. No one is "born into" anything. Being born is a biological act, constituting the "I" that means coming an individual in a symbolic system comes after the birth. Basically the "I" didn't exist before birth. A human animal is born and then they constitute themselves and can declare "I" (not freely though always within an impossible decision). There is however a symbolic network waiting to structure this constitution and also accept the animal into the symbolic network by first declaring "it's a boy/girl" "his/her name is".

Well when I was born I was biologically male. I always felt like a woman in my brain. I always figured there was something terrible about me, and everything and everyone around me reinforced my self disdain and pushed me to hide it.


If people later choose to fashion and alter their body (everyone does at some degreee) it was never predifined before birth. It is a choice made through the individuals interaction with society and others.

For me there was another dimension to it. The choice wasn't between just transition or not, it was transition or suicide. In transitioning, I chose to live.


I think that is the point that 9 and Maldoror were getting to. I don't think anyone was having a dig at you, but these theories come from post-structuralist work. The claim "i was born into the wrong body" can be problematic for when trying to argue against essentialist thinking.

Now in simple language, what the hell is an essentialist?

[Robocommie]

Now in simple language, what the hell is an essentialist?

This idea that there's such a thing as "maleness" or "femaleness" and that women are essentially different from men, and vice versa. That the difference between genders is one of essence, and not mere biology.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I think the question should be, why shouldn't people have sex changes if they feel strongly enough about it to go through with it?

I really don't see what there is to argue about.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

This idea that there's such a thing as "maleness" or "femaleness" and that women are essentially different from men, and vice versa. That the difference between genders is one of essence, and not mere biology.

The fact is that gender is NOT mere biology. Biological sex is between the legs and is irrelevant. Gender is in the brain.

[Hiero]

Now in simple language, what the hell is an essentialist?


Sorry, I should have explained that.

Robocommie sort of explained it, but I find a few things wrong with his explaination. I will give my explanation.

Essentionalism is the idea that there is an essence of ones identity, a root cause or core. Something that is unchanging and all determing. This assumption of an "essence" is used to explain social behaviour. So boys playing in the mud or fighting is often brushed aside as "boys will be boys". If girls play in the mud or pyhsically fight, the social behaviour contradicts the assumed essence and mothers will intervene to correct the behaviour. The idea is that there is a core that will explain social behaviour.

Essentialism is sometimes linked into biology, the focus is genitalia. So someone is a gendered male because they have a penis and testicals, so they will act like a male. This essentialism assumes that men and woman are historical coherent and unchanging.

Anti-essentialist are the opposite, they expose the existence of essence or at least an essence prior to existence. So Simmone De Beauvoir said that woman is made not born. Other later Post-structuralist looked at gender in terms of being contingent on the current existing power structures. Judith Butler viewed gender as a performance, gender doesn't exist in essence or biology, but it is much a performance of the body. And this performance is a product of the current cultural, social and political environment.

If we take this anti-essentialist arguement then we can say that no one is "born into" anything. I was never a white male being born into a white males body. My body reflected a social and cultural catergory, one that science identifed as male and white. After my birth my social identity is created, society viewed me as a white male and treated me as such. In return I acknowledged such treatment and internalised it, then I set myself out to mimic the current behaviours and "performances" of the images of men. Gender was never in my head to begin with, but came from the social, cultural and political structures. To naturalise this proccess and give myself confidence I will seek to "essentialise" it in such statements "I am who I am and will always be that".

Here are two quick explanations of essentialism.

http://science.jrank.org/pages/9219/Essentialism-Feminist-Disputes.html

http://www.lancs.ac.uk/staff/twine/ecofem/essentialism.html

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Sorry, I should have explained that.

Robocommie sort of explained it, but I find a few things wrong with his explaination. I will give my explanation.

Essentionalism is the idea that there is an essence of ones identity, a root cause or core. Something that is unchanging and all determing. This assumption of an "essence" is used to explain social behaviour. So boys playing in the mud or fighting is often brushed aside as "boys will be boys". If girls play in the mud or pyhsically fight, the social behaviour contradicts the assumed essence and mothers will intervene to correct the behaviour. The idea is that there is a core that will explain social behaviour.

Essentialism is sometimes linked into biology, the focus is genitalia. So someone is a gendered male because they have a penis and testicals, so they will act like a male. This essentialism assumes that men and woman are historical coherent and unchanging.

Anti-essentialist are the opposite, they expose the existence of essence or at least an essence prior to existence. So Simmone De Beauvoir said that woman is made not born. Other later Post-structuralist looked at gender in terms of being contingent on the current existing power structures. Judith Butler viewed gender as a performance, gender doesn't exist in essence or biology, but it is much a performance of the body. And this performance is a product of the current cultural, social and political environment.

If we take this anti-essentialist arguement then we can say that no one is "born into" anything. I was never a white male being born into a white males body. My body reflected a social and cultural catergory, one that science identifed as male and white. After my birth my social identity is created, society viewed me as a white male and treated me as such. In return I acknowledged such treatment and internalised it, then I set myself out to mimic the current behaviours and "performances" of the images of men. Gender was never in my head to begin with, but came from the social, cultural and political structures. To naturalise this proccess and give myself confidence I will seek to "essentialise" it in such statements "I am who I am and will always be that".

Here are two quick explanations of essentialism.

http://science.jrank.org/pages/9219/Essentialism-Feminist-Disputes.html

http://www.lancs.ac.uk/staff/twine/ecofem/essentialism.html

In that case, I guess I'm an essentialist because I didn't learn any of the gender role that I embody. I've always had these inclinations, and it's impossible to say I was built into them from society since they were completely against the grain of what society was telling me to do. So much that I was terrified and hid them because I was made to hate this part of me. So yes, it was inherent in me and I'll stick by the fact that this wasn't "learned" or "made by society"

[guybob1000]

We're not men, we're women born into the wrong fucking body. I never was a man, I was always a woman. To refer to us as "men" is extremely offensive. I am just like any other woman and what body I was born into doesn't make me man even though it was a male body. So don't fucking refer to us MTFs as "most of these men".


Look, I consider a person with an X and Y chromosome and a penis a male (maybe a simplistic view, tear it to shreds if you will). You can take that as offense or not but please respect my view. I respect your view but that's all that it is, a view. Whatever you feel you are on the inside is irrelevant to me, If i felt I was a rock that would not mean I was a rock.

I have not seen any scientific evidence to suggest that people can be born the "wrong" gender. What is the criteria for determining whether someone is a man in a mans body, a woman in a womans body, a woman in a mans body or a man in a womens body. If it is just the persons personal belief that he or she was born into the wrong body than there must be people who believe it to be so but are wrong. How do you determine if you are right about what gender you should have been born?

Again, no offense and I respect you and your view. I simply believe you are wrong. Until I see evidence then I have to regard it as just a belief.

[guybob1000]

Also, Esperanza Xochitl

My general point in the first post was how people are people and at the end of the day we are all basically the same. It's not the sort of thing you should curse at and If you have any interest in me or others taking the time to understand where you are coming from then you should have the same courtesy towards understanding their point of view.

You come off just as ignorant as people who refer to individuals as you as abominations.

[Aeval]

Look, I consider a person with an X and Y chromosome and a penis a male (maybe a simplistic view, tear it to shreds if you will).



It is a little simplistic - what do you do about people who have one but not the other? The human body is complex and often doesn't fit neatly into the categories we've made up for it.


You can take that as offense or not but please respect my view. I respect your view but that's all that it is, a view. Whatever you feel you are on the inside is irrelevant to me

Why should someone respect your views when, as you say, whatever they feel they are on the inside is irrelevant to you?


I have not seen any scientific evidence to suggest that people can be born the "wrong" gender. What is the criteria for determining whether someone is a man in a mans body, a woman in a womans body, a woman in a mans body or a man in a womens body. If it is just the persons personal belief that he or she was born into the wrong body than there must be people who believe it to be so but are wrong. How do you determine if you are right about what gender you should have been born?

Generally speaking people don't just wake up one day and go "you know what? I fancy being a man/woman today!". People don't just do this on a whim and in most (all?) countries you can't just stroll up to a doctor and have them sign you up for surgery straight away. Doctors and psychologists etc do check whether they think the person is "in the wrong body" or not, and if they don't think they are they will say so. I can't give you the specific criteria they look for as I'm neither trans nor a doctor but from what I've seen from friends going through this it takes ages and they have to "prove" their case to multiples medical professionals, so it's a bit simplistic to say it's just a person's personal belief - it's their belief plus that of a specialist.

And the fact that you've seen no scientific evidence to suggest people can be born the wrong gender (actually, the right gender, in the wrong body) suggests more that you've not looked into it much - I have read about numerous studies which offer scientific reasons for transsexualism - there was a Dutch study looking at the size of a specific part of hypothalamus of male to female transsexuals which found that they were female sized rather than male sized, for example. It's not like someone one day just decided they were the other gender and everyone else went "right you are then" and started giving them hormones and stuff, they have actually checked these things, scientifically I mean.


Again, no offense and I respect you and your view. I simply believe you are wrong. Until I see evidence then I have to regard it as just a belief.

Well, no offence, but I don't respect your view because you seem to be pulling it out of your arse.

[counterblast]

I have not seen any scientific evidence to suggest that people can be born the "wrong" gender.


Well, allow me to be the first to show you;


Transsexualism can be considered to be a neuro-developmental condition. Several sexually dimorphic nuclei have been found in the hypothalamic area of the brain (Swaab & Fliers, 1985; Allen & Gorski, 1990; Swaab et al, 2001). Of particular interest is the sexually dimorphic limbic nucleus called the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) which appears to become fully mature in the human brain by early adulthood. In males the volume of this nucleus is almost twice as large as in females and its number of neurons is almost double (Zhou et al, 1995; Kruijver et al 2000; Chung et al 2002).


In the case of transsexuals this nucleus has a sex-reversed structure. This means that in the case of trans women (n=7), the size of this nucleus and its neuron count is in the same range as that of women in the general population. In the only available brain of a trans man, the structure of this nucleus was found to be in the range of males in the general population. It is hypothesised that this male-like BSTc will be present in other trans men as well. These findings were independent of sexual orientation and of the use of exogenous sex hormones. It is inferred that the sexually dimorphic BSTc is an important part of a neural circuit involved in the development and establishment of gender identity (Kruijver et al, 2000).

As stated, in trans people, a sex-reversed BSTc has been found. This specific sex-reversed brain organisation in trans people provides persuasive evidence of a biological predisposition for transsexualism. This evidence for an innate biological etiology is reinforced by other studies, one example of which, indicates a higher than average correlation with left-handedness (Green & Young, 2001). Where the predisposition for transsexualism exists, psycho-social and other factors may subsequently play a role in the outcome, however, there is no evidence that nurturing and socialisation in contradiction to the phenotype can cause transsexualism, nor that nurture which is entirely consistent with the phenotype can prevent it (Kipnis & Diamond, 1998). There is further clear evidence from the histories of conditions involving anomalies of genitalia, that gender identity may resolve independently of genital appearance, even when that appearance and the assigned identity are enhanced by medical and social interventions (Reiner, 2002; Kipnis & Diamond, 1998; Diamond and Sigmundson, 1997). It is not possible to identify one single cause for transsexualism: rather, its causality is highly complex and multifactorial. The condition requires a careful diagnostic process, based largely on self-assessment, facilitated by a specialist professional.


In conclusion, transsexualism is stongly associated with the neurodevelopment of the brain. (Zhou et. al., 1995; Kruijver et. al., 2000). The condition has not been found to be overcome by contrary socialisation, nor by psychological or psychiatric treatments alone (Green, 1999). Individuals may benefit from an approach that includes a programme of hormones and corrective surgery to achieve realignment of the phenotype with the gender identity, accompanied by well-integrated psychosocial interventions to support the individual and to assist in the adaptation to the appropriate social role (Green and Fleming, 2000). Treatments may vary, and should be commensurate with each individual's particular needs and circumstances.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Look, I consider a person with an X and Y chromosome and a penis a male (maybe a simplistic view, tear it to shreds if you will). You can take that as offense or not but please respect my view. I respect your view but that's all that it is, a view. Whatever you feel you are on the inside is irrelevant to me, If i felt I was a rock that would not mean I was a rock.
Simplistic and against the entire medical community's stances.


I have not seen any scientific evidence to suggest that people can be born the "wrong" gender. What is the criteria for determining whether someone is a man in a mans body, a woman in a womans body, a woman in a mans body or a man in a womens body. If it is just the persons personal belief that he or she was born into the wrong body than there must be people who believe it to be so but are wrong. How do you determine if you are right about what gender you should have been born? Have you looked up Gender Identity Disorder in a DSM book?

You are in disagreement with the entire medical proffession. It is doctors who perscribe the hormones.


Again, no offense and I respect you and your view. I simply believe you are wrong. Until I see evidence then I have to regard it as just a belief.
Calling me male is not respect while you're at it, you could also throw some anti-mexican racial slurs at me and be no less offensive at this point.

[leftace53]

So I realize that calling a male trapped in a female body a "he" (and vice versa with female in male body) is probably as (if not more) offensive as calling me a conservative, and I definitely make a note to call people whatever they want to be called, but what about if someone doesn't know (assuming pre op) the status of someone's gender identity? I mean, there are many men out there in the media wearing make up, and still identifying as male, so surely simply makeup wouldn't do as an "identifier", and I don't suspect every female in a male's body cross dresses, so could it be an honest mistake?

I'm all for eliminating gendered pronouns partially for this reason, and partially because there is really no good reason I see for having them. I was wondering how trans folk handle such things?

[Wolf Larson]

On a related note: Did you know the Iranian Gov actually pays for sex change operations? It's a differnt interpretation of the Koran....I thought that was interesting when I read it.

Now lets all take time to read the SCUM Manifesto and have a cry wank.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

So I realize that calling a male trapped in a female body a "he" (and vice versa with female in male body) is probably as (if not more) offensive as calling me a conservative, and I definitely make a note to call people whatever they want to be called, but what about if someone doesn't know (assuming pre op) the status of someone's gender identity? I mean, there are many men out there in the media wearing make up, and still identifying as male, so surely simply makeup wouldn't do as an "identifier", and I don't suspect every female in a male's body cross dresses, so could it be an honest mistake?
A female who's trapped in a male body (FTM) would usually prefer he. Male to Female transsexuals (like myself) on the other hand tend to prefer female pronouns (She,her,hers)
As for the assuming thing, assuming is pretty much just a bad idea. It's generally best to ask the person what their pronouns of preference.


I'm all for eliminating gendered pronouns partially for this reason, and partially because there is really no good reason I see for having them. I was wondering how trans folk handle such things?

I don't want gendered pronouns to be completely eliminated, but I'd think it'd be pretty awesome for gender neutral pronouns to be more accepted as legitimate.

[guybob1000]

Simplistic and against the entire medical community's stances.

Have you looked up Gender Identity Disorder in a DSM book?

You are in disagreement with the entire medical proffession. It is doctors who perscribe the hormones.

"Little evidence exists to support the claim that Gender Identity Disorder has a neurological basis, and critics of GID denomination say there is no scientific consensus on whether the cause of Gender Identity Disorder is mental or physical." -Kelly Winters Ph.D

The GID controversy figured prominently at the 2009 meeting of the American Psychiatric Association in San Francisco, both in presentations in the meeting and in protests outside the meeting

The diagnosis of gender identity disorder (GID) is one of those handful of diagnoses that invoke passionate debate. -psychiatryonline


Obviously not the entire medical profession. It was pretty obvious to me after spending 5 minutes on google that there is still debate on the subject.

As for what individual doctors do, let us not forget that a couple decades ago doctors were performing lobotomies. Them being a doctor does not make them right.

You seem to suffer from a delusion that many people have, the delusion is that you are right. I'm probably wrong. You are probably wrong. The doctors who study the field of gender are probably wrong. The question of gender will probably have vastly different answers in the future. However you are so rigid in your belief that you fail to admit you may be wrong and I may be right.

I may be wrong and you may be right, which is exactly the reason I have tried to be respectful during this discussion. Your first post had the word "fucking" twice. You infer offense at what I say. When I said my personal definition of what a male is, you chose to take it as a slap to the face and not as a lone opinion. Your posts however, are inflammatory and purposefully offensive.





Calling me male is not respect while you're at it, you could also throw some anti-mexican racial slurs at me and be no less offensive at this point.

If I said I was God, the one true god and you didn't agree with me - would that be cause for me to take offense? If I said I am an elephant and you told me "but you don't have a trunk" would I have reason to get all hot about it?

I always refer to people as they would like to be referred to as. So I shall call you a woman, because you want to be called one. But that is the only reason I call you one.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

You seem to suffer from a delusion that many people have, the delusion is that you are right. I'm probably wrong. You are probably wrong. The doctors who study the field of gender are probably wrong. The question of gender will probably have vastly different answers in the future. However you are so rigid in your belief that you fail to admit you may be wrong and I may be right.

You see, this is where the right to self determination kicks in. The one thing that I can claim to be right about is myself an my identity which you have no claim over.

And since we're talking about my gender I have every right not to be respectful because it's not your gender being discusted. I have every right not to talk nicely with you because when you call me "delusional" and say that penis=male bullshit, I'm the one under attack, not you. So kindly go fuck yourself.

[Queercommie Girl]

Humans have self-awareness, and gender is also a social construction to a significant extent, not just biological sex. Obviously when it comes to humans one could never just see things "objectively", unless one is a fascist. The self-identity is of paramount importance.

[Queercommie Girl]

Regardless of whether or not transgenderism has an absolutely distinct bio-chemical basis, it is quite clear that it is an objective issue, not a subjective one, since less than 0.1% of those who have undergone GRS actually regret it afterwards. Purely subjective phenomena cannot possibly hold such a high degree of consistency across such a wide range of people from all backgrounds.

[guybob1000]

You see, this is where the right to self determination kicks in. The one thing that I can claim to be right about is myself an my identity which you have no claim over.

And since we're talking about my gender I have every right not to be respectful because it's not your gender being discusted. I have every right not to talk nicely with you because when you call me "delusional" and say that penis=male bullshit, I'm the one under attack, not you. So kindly go fuck yourself.


I'm sorry, maybe i'm missing something. You told me that all medical science agrees with your view on gender. Then, when I point out some sources that say otherwise suddenly, none of that mattters. Now you say that what you feel on the inside is the end of the discussion.

So which is it? Does medical science have any business classifying gender or is it merely something people decide for themselves?


As for you being under attack. My view it not an attack on you unless you choose to take it as so. I would argue that my view is under attack because you refuse to accept my position as having any legitimacy whatsoever. Not that you should believe any of what I say as truth, but you seem to feel that I am not even entitled to my particular view on the matter.

It seems kinda paranoid to take every persons opinion that does not line up with yours as a personal attack. You sound like the people opposed to gay marriage who claim that those peoples opinions on marriage are a direct assault on their marriages and lives.

I'm entitled to my opinion and only people who are trapped inside their own little bubble of self importance should take it personally.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I'm sorry, maybe i'm missing something. You told me that all medical science agrees with your view on gender. Then, when I point out some sources that say otherwise suddenly, none of that mattters. Now you say that what you feel on the inside is the end of the discussion.

So which is it? Does medical science have any business classifying gender or is it merely something people decide for themselves?


As for you being under attack. My view it not an attack on you unless you choose to take it as so. I would argue that my view is under attack because you refuse to accept my position as having any legitimacy whatsoever. Not that you should believe any of what I say as truth, but you seem to feel that I am not even entitled to my particular view on the matter.

It seems kinda paranoid to take every persons opinion that does not line up with yours as a personal attack. You sound like the people opposed to gay marriage who claim that those peoples opinions on marriage are a direct assault on their marriages and lives.

I'm entitled to my opinion and only people who are trapped inside their own little bubble of self importance should take it personally.


LISTEN MOTHERFUCKER, YOU'RE NOT THE ONE LIVING THIS SO BACK THE FUCK OFF!
And keep your opinions off my body and out of my fucking life!!!
I'm not claiming any bullshit about my view being under attack, but rather it's me, my gender identity, MY LIFE and WHO I AM that has come under attack. This is not about my mere view, it's about who I am. It's about years of thinking that I was the one fucked up because society with their euro-centric gender binary system couldn't have been the one wrong. It is about the numerous times I tried to kill myself because of that gender binary. It's about years of getting fucked with. It's about me finally coming out and saying I am a transsexual woman and I can't stand to hide it any more.

Of course I'm not going to be polite to anyone who fucks with me because I know the things I'm saying to you don't hold a candle to the over two decades of be trapped, alone, hurting, wanting to die, being under constant attack and being told that I'm a boy when my entire fucking life I've never been able to identify with boy, man, male, he, his, him or any reference to masculinity.
How the fuck have you not gotten banned from this site yet?


Also, maybe you should have picked a different time of the month to fucking piss me off.

[gorillafuck]

I agree that since gender isn't an objective thing that can be proven by science and is a social construct, it doesn't make complete scientific sense to say "a man in a womans body". But why do petty things like that matter when it comes to real life? That's not even worth discussion.

[guybob1000]

LISTEN MOTHERFUCKER, YOU'RE NOT THE ONE LIVING THIS SO BACK THE FUCK OFF!
And keep your opinions off my body and out of my fucking life!!!
I'm not claiming any bullshit about my view being under attack, but rather it's me, my gender identity, MY LIFE and WHO I AM that has come under attack. This is not about my mere view, it's about who I am. It's about years of thinking that I was the one fucked up because society with their euro-centric gender binary system couldn't have been the one wrong. It is about the numerous times I tried to kill myself because of that gender binary. It's about years of getting fucked with. It's about me finally coming out and saying I am a transsexual woman and I can't stand to hide it any more.

Of course I'm not going to be polite to anyone who fucks with me because I know the things I'm saying to you don't hold a candle to the over two decades of be trapped, alone, hurting, wanting to die, being under constant attack and being told that I'm a boy when my entire fucking life I've never been able to identify with boy, man, male, he, his, him or any reference to masculinity.
How the fuck have you not gotten banned from this site yet?


Also, maybe you should have picked a different time of the month to fucking piss me off.


You have hi-jacked this thread. My thread was supposed to be a feel-good "Isn't it nice that at the end of the day we are all the same" thread. Instead you decide to turn it into your own personal crusade against people who don't agree with you. I am sorry that the whole gender thing has been a hardship for you, but I am not your enemy.

As for me being banned, I see no reason that I would be banned. If you would like to point out what rule I have broken I would be much obliged if you would point it out and I would be happy to delete any offending posts.

[RedAnarchist]

Actually, I'm going to ban you for being a transphobic troll.

[Spanishleft]

It's not a removal to have an outy turned into an inny. It's a mutilation and inversion. Someday I will hopefully have mine done. It just costs a lot. But I have hated what's down there everyday of my entire life.

Comrade, I know life's not perfect, actually quite the opposite, under capitalism, but do not let your own selfperception be dominated by those capitalist images telling you to get $urgery, with the related struggle for cash to pay for, and thus ending up a part of the capitalist machinery! Once communism is reached, the people will solve every problem :)

[Queercommie Girl]

I agree that since gender isn't an objective thing that can be proven by science and is a social construct, it doesn't make complete scientific sense to say "a man in a womans body". But why do petty things like that matter when it comes to real life? That's not even worth discussion.

No gender is not just subjective. But it is simply the case that when it comes to humans objectivity always involves self-identification.

Gender identity is not a "petty thing" to people who are transgendered.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Comrade, I know life's not perfect, actually quite the opposite, under capitalism, but do not let your own selfperception be dominated by those capitalist images telling you to get $urgery, with the related struggle for cash to pay for, and thus ending up a part of the capitalist machinery! Once communism is reached, the people will solve every problem :)

It hasn't been "capitalist images" telling me to get surgery. As a matter of fact, it has been big American society, which is capitalist, that has been telling me my entire life "You're a boy, act like one" telling me that I need to fit into the gender binary. I really don't think that communism being reached per se will solve this issue.

[Spanishleft]

I'm sorry, comrade, I didnt mean to imply what caused your wishes for surgery. It's you, and you only, who has the right to state so. Also, I hope I dont get banned now. :(

[Queercommie Girl]

Comrade, I know life's not perfect, actually quite the opposite, under capitalism, but do not let your own selfperception be dominated by those capitalist images telling you to get $urgery, with the related struggle for cash to pay for, and thus ending up a part of the capitalist machinery! Once communism is reached, the people will solve every problem :)

Transgenderism is much more than just a sexy image. How about the fact that Cuba now has free sex change operations available for people? Is that also "capitalist"?

[Spanishleft]

Transgenderism is much more than just a sexy image. How about the fact that Cuba now has free sex change operations available for people? Is that also "capitalist"?

Quite the opposite! Didn't I mention communism's ability to help transgendered people just a few posts earlier?

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I'm sorry, comrade, I didnt mean to imply what caused your wishes for surgery. It's you, and you only, who has the right to state so. Also, I hope I dont get banned now. :(

What you said was much more clearly a matter of wording accidentally coming off a little differently than you may have meant it.

[People's War]

I'm sorry, maybe i'm missing something. You told me that all medical science agrees with your view on gender. Then, when I point out some sources that say otherwise suddenly, none of that mattters. Now you say that what you feel on the inside is the end of the discussion.

So which is it? Does medical science have any business classifying gender or is it merely something people decide for themselves?


As for you being under attack. My view it not an attack on you unless you choose to take it as so. I would argue that my view is under attack because you refuse to accept my position as having any legitimacy whatsoever. Not that you should believe any of what I say as truth, but you seem to feel that I am not even entitled to my particular view on the matter.

It seems kinda paranoid to take every persons opinion that does not line up with yours as a personal attack. You sound like the people opposed to gay marriage who claim that those peoples opinions on marriage are a direct assault on their marriages and lives.

I'm entitled to my opinion and only people who are trapped inside their own little bubble of self importance should take it personally.

As a transgendered person myself, I'm glad you're banned.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

As a transgendered person myself, I'm glad you're banned.

You're not alone on that one here.

[Hiero]

Well, allow me to be the first to show you;


Transsexualism can be considered to be a neuro-developmental condition. Several sexually dimorphic nuclei have been found in the hypothalamic area of the brain (Swaab & Fliers, 1985; Allen & Gorski, 1990; Swaab et al, 2001). Of particular interest is the sexually dimorphic limbic nucleus called the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) which appears to become fully mature in the human brain by early adulthood. In males the volume of this nucleus is almost twice as large as in females and its number of neurons is almost double (Zhou et al, 1995; Kruijver et al 2000; Chung et al 2002).


In the case of transsexuals this nucleus has a sex-reversed structure. This means that in the case of trans women (n=7), the size of this nucleus and its neuron count is in the same range as that of women in the general population. In the only available brain of a trans man, the structure of this nucleus was found to be in the range of males in the general population. It is hypothesised that this male-like BSTc will be present in other trans men as well. These findings were independent of sexual orientation and of the use of exogenous sex hormones. It is inferred that the sexually dimorphic BSTc is an important part of a neural circuit involved in the development and establishment of gender identity (Kruijver et al, 2000).

As stated, in trans people, a sex-reversed BSTc has been found. This specific sex-reversed brain organisation in trans people provides persuasive evidence of a biological predisposition for transsexualism. This evidence for an innate biological etiology is reinforced by other studies, one example of which, indicates a higher than average correlation with left-handedness (Green & Young, 2001). Where the predisposition for transsexualism exists, psycho-social and other factors may subsequently play a role in the outcome, however, there is no evidence that nurturing and socialisation in contradiction to the phenotype can cause transsexualism, nor that nurture which is entirely consistent with the phenotype can prevent it (Kipnis & Diamond, 1998). There is further clear evidence from the histories of conditions involving anomalies of genitalia, that gender identity may resolve independently of genital appearance, even when that appearance and the assigned identity are enhanced by medical and social interventions (Reiner, 2002; Kipnis & Diamond, 1998; Diamond and Sigmundson, 1997). It is not possible to identify one single cause for transsexualism: rather, its causality is highly complex and multifactorial. The condition requires a careful diagnostic process, based largely on self-assessment, facilitated by a specialist professional.


In conclusion, transsexualism is stongly associated with the neurodevelopment of the brain. (Zhou et. al., 1995; Kruijver et. al., 2000). The condition has not been found to be overcome by contrary socialisation, nor by psychological or psychiatric treatments alone (Green, 1999). Individuals may benefit from an approach that includes a programme of hormones and corrective surgery to achieve realignment of the phenotype with the gender identity, accompanied by well-integrated psychosocial interventions to support the individual and to assist in the adaptation to the appropriate social role (Green and Fleming, 2000). Treatments may vary, and should be commensurate with each individual's particular needs and circumstances.


How does this fit with post-structuralism?