The ELF (Earth Liberation Front)

[The Vegan Marxist]

What is everyone's thoughts on this particular group? Both them & the ALF (animal liberation front) are collective anti-capitalists & have shown their support to the IWW - despite what one's opinion on the IWW may be - & they've become a major force, especially within the States, who take action against exploitive & harmful corporations, whether it effects animals, humans, or the environment.

[¿Que?]

I remember they torched a car lot of SUV's one time. The liberals hate them because they're too radical and the left hates them because they're all white middle class kids. Expect a lot of haters.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I remember they torched a car lot of SUV's one time. The liberals hate them because they're too radical and the left hates them because they're all white middle class kids. Expect a lot of haters.

That's a bit of a mis-leading view of them. I see them rather as petty-bourgeoisie.

[this is an invasion]

They're not revolutionary.

And they were big several years ago. They're just another fossil of the past.

[¿Que?]

That's a bit of a mis-leading view of them. I see them rather as petty-bourgeoisie.
If anything, I'm misrepresenting the left, as I was making an assertion about how they were viewed. In any case, I'd say white, middle class describes petty-bourgeois pretty nicely, although obviously it doesn't describe every petty bourgeois individual.

[The Vegan Marxist]

If anything, I'm misrepresenting the left, as I was making an assertion about how they were viewed. In any case, I'd say white, middle class describes petty-bourgeois pretty nicely, although obviously it doesn't describe every petty bourgeois individual.

Alright, I can agree with this for the most part.

[Weezer]

That's a bit of a mis-leading view of them. I see them rather as petty-bourgeoisie.

As if that's better...?

[The Vegan Marxist]

As if that's better...?

It brings about a more broader perspective on them rather than just "white middle class".

[Tablo]

Their politics suck. I understand what they stand for, and I like their passion, but they have no real direction and fail to see the primary solution, which is class war.

Also, while burning and blowing up shit is fun, it won't liberate the working class.

Edit: Post number 500! xD

[The Vegan Marxist]

Their politics suck. I understand what they stand for, and I like their passion, but they have no real direction and fail to see the primary solution, which is class war.

Also, while burning and blowing up shit is fun, it won't liberate the working class.

Edit: Post number 500! xD

Then it should be up to us, fellow Comrades, to help direct them to a more broader class direction on the political spectrum. Nay or yay?

[Tablo]

I say nay as people deep enough into their worthless politics aren't worth trying to turn. I think we should start with the working class and worry about them afterward.

[bailey_187]

Reactionaries. They are not comrades, nor is the ALF.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Many ELF groups have a history of tree spiking which of course is extremely dangerous to the lumberjacks working those trees, lumberjacks of course are part of the working class, ELF are our enemies. Don't get me started on ALF, those lunatics need to be sent to a tiny island full of carnivorous animals where they can learn about how nature really works.

[gorillafuck]

What is everyone's thoughts on this particular group? Both them & the ALF (animal liberation front) are collective anti-capitalists & have shown their support to the IWW - despite what one's opinion on the IWW may be - & they've become a major force, especially within the States, who take action against exploitive & harmful corporations, whether it effects animals, humans, or the environment.
No, they haven't.

What sorts of action do they take besides letting animals out of labs, anyway? They seem like they just disrupt things for very short periods of time.

[Os Cangaceiros]

They're a bunch of total wankers. Case in point being their arson attack on that one lodge in Vail (Colorado). They thought that it was some huge victory, until the developers simply took the insurance money and built the lodge even bigger than what was previously planned. :rolleyes:

[Dimentio]

What is everyone's thoughts on this particular group? Both them & the ALF (animal liberation front) are collective anti-capitalists & have shown their support to the IWW - despite what one's opinion on the IWW may be - & they've become a major force, especially within the States, who take action against exploitive & harmful corporations, whether it effects animals, humans, or the environment.

The destruction of the technology which not only the working class but which millions upon millions of human beings are dependent upon is hardly a worthy cause. The ELF's vision is not one of anti-capitalism, but of pre-capitalism.

[nuisance]

they're all white middle class kids. Expect a lot of haters.
Pr00f plz.

Not backing ELF actions or nothing, but assertions like this really make you look like abit of a twat.


The destruction of the technology which not only the working class but which millions upon millions of human beings are dependent upon is hardly a worthy cause.
What technology are we dependent on do ELF actions target?

[Robocommie]

I remember they torched a car lot of SUV's one time. The liberals hate them because they're too radical and the left hates them because they're all white middle class kids. Expect a lot of haters.

Revleft in general are a bunch of haters.

[Aeval]

Wow, this attitude must be why people are queuing round the block to join all these leftie groups! :rolleyes:

Generally speaking a lot of the actions groups like the ELF and ALF do aren't actually that useful - however, I wouldn't simply dismiss the people who do them out of hand as being "reactionary" or "our enemies" (a tad harsh, no?)

A lot of people are attracted to those types of things because on the surface they appear to be doing something active and positive, and you don't have to have read the books of fifty dead beardy guys to know what the hell other people in the group are talking about. The groups are often very close and give an immense amount of support to new people, including allowing these new people to get stuck in rather than presuming they have nothing of worth to contribute - something that I think most groups on the left could definitely improve on.

Most of the people involved in stuff like this that I've met have been anti-capitalists, and do do pro working class actions as well as environmental/AR stuff - though obviously there are plenty of utter douches who think the government is putting fluoride in the water to control our minds and that the world would be better if 90% of us died out; this is why I think we should be actively encouraging those who don't think that rather than acting like we're oh so much better and more revolutionary than them.

In short; I like their passion though I don't think a lot of what they do is particularly revolutionary (or even well thought out for that matter), however, it really makes me cringe when I see shit like this:


people deep enough into their worthless politics aren't worth trying to turn.

Awesome, why waste our time trying to "turn" anyone, let's just not bother then :rolleyes:

[Dimentio]

Wow, this attitude must be why people are queuing round the block to join all these leftie groups! :rolleyes:

Generally speaking a lot of the actions groups like the ELF and ALF do aren't actually that useful - however, I wouldn't simply dismiss the people who do them out of hand as being "reactionary" or "our enemies" (a tad harsh, no?)

A lot of people are attracted to those types of things because on the surface they appear to be doing something active and positive, and you don't have to have read the books of fifty dead beardy guys to know what the hell other people in the group are talking about. The groups are often very close and give an immense amount of support to new people, including allowing these new people to get stuck in rather than presuming they have nothing of worth to contribute - something that I think most groups on the left could definitely improve on.

Most of the people involved in stuff like this that I've met have been anti-capitalists, and do do pro working class actions as well as environmental/AR stuff - though obviously there are plenty of utter douches who think the government is putting fluoride in the water to control our minds and that the world would be better if 90% of us died out; this is why I think we should be actively encouraging those who don't think that rather than acting like we're oh so much better and more revolutionary than them.

In short; I like their passion though I don't think a lot of what they do is particularly revolutionary (or even well thought out for that matter), however, it really makes me cringe when I see shit like this:



Awesome, why waste our time trying to "turn" anyone, let's just not bother then :rolleyes:

I am not talking about the rank-n-file activists, but about the ideologues. The idea that human quality of life is enhanced by the destruction of technology is like saying that community harmony is increased but nazism (some douches actually claim that). By patting the econuts on the head, you'll give them a free pass to do whatever fuck they want to do.

[Weezer]

What did we learn today class?

Terrorism does not help the working class.

[nuisance]

I am not talking about the rank-n-file activists, but about the ideologues.
Huh? As much as it may convience your understanding of the ELF, there is no single ideology collectively triumphed by 'Elves'.

[Raúl Duke]

& they've become a major force, especially within the States, who take action against exploitive & harmful corporations, whether it effects animals, humans, or the environment. No...

The thing is, for the kinds of actions they do, you do not need many members nor much organizing (and little to nothing of links in a community/group/etc) so while they're very active it doesn't imply that they're very popular nor a large organization. In fact, I think most people I know will think they're crazy except the environmentalist crowd in my university (who would say they're great but "too radical"). I mean, it's a simple matter of rounding up a few people and doing some "propaganda of deed" kind of shit.

[The Vegan Marxist]

What did we learn today class?

Terrorism does not help the working class.

Define terrorism.

[¿Que?]

Pr00f plz.

Not backing ELF actions or nothing, but assertions like this really make you look like abit of a twat.

You should read a little closer. I've already answered this on post #5.

I would also abstain from personal insults, if you want to have a discussion with me. Not to mention the word "twat" is slang for female genitalia which could be construed as sexist.

I'm not above taddling, you know.

[this is an invasion]

You should read a little closer. I've already answered this on post #5.

I would also abstain from personal insults, if you want to have a discussion with me. Not to mention the word "twat" is slang for female genitalia which could be construed as sexist.

I'm not above taddling, you know.

I believe it was already decided on revleft that **** and twat are not sexist.

[Vanguard1917]

The ELF are some of my favourite people. But i prefered Earth First, to be honest. That was the group whose members went on to form the ELF. The great thing about Earth First was that they were less worried about taking their principles to their logical conclusions.

For example:

They correctly supported malaria:

"Ours is an ecological perspective that views Earth as a community and recognizes such apparent enemies as 'disease' (e.g., malaria) and 'pests' (e.g., mosquitoes) not as manifestations of evil to be overcome but rather as vital and necessary components of a complex and vibrant biosphere."

And AIDS:

"If radical environmentalists were to invent a disease to bring human population back to sanity, it would probably be something like AIDS… the possible benefits of this to the environment are staggering… just as the Plague contributed to the demise of feudalism, AIDS has the potential to end industrialism."

They were also great at putting famine in Ethiopia in its proper context:

"An individual human life has no more intrinsic value than does an individual Grizzly Bear life. Human suffering resulting from drought and famine in Ethiopia is tragic, yes, but the destruction there of other creatures and habitat is even more tragic."

Why? Because, as they astutely pointed out:

"We humans have become a disease -- the Humanpox."

Spot on! What great fellows.

[Pavlov's House Party]

Define terrorism.

Terrorism done by an individual (such as the ELF) is destructive to both the leftist movement as a whole and to the consciousness of the working class.The use of terror against capitalists and militant reactionary elements is only acceptable when done under the democratic control of the working class as a whole. The use of terror as a revolutionary tool should only be applied against the most militant and dangerous threats to the establishment of revolutionary working class rule, such as the measures taken against the White Guards in Russia.

[nuisance]

You should read a little closer. I've already answered this on post #5.

I would also abstain from personal insults, if you want to have a discussion with me. Not to mention the word "twat" is slang for female genitalia which could be construed as sexist.

I'm not above taddling, you know.
http://anokchan.com/b/src/127688686310.gif

Also the your post you mention doesn't have anything to do with what I said. It's a stupid statement whether you say petit-bourgeois or middle class.

[The Vegan Marxist]

http://anokchan.com/b/src/127688686310.gif

^ I hate that moron!

[Os Cangaceiros]

The ELF are some of my favourite people. But i prefered Earth First, to be honest. That was the group whose members went on to form the ELF. The great thing about Earth First was that they were less worried about taking their principles to their logical conclusions.

For example:

They correctly supported malaria:

"Ours is an ecological perspective that views Earth as a community and recognizes such apparent enemies as 'disease' (e.g., malaria) and 'pests' (e.g., mosquitoes) not as manifestations of evil to be overcome but rather as vital and necessary components of a complex and vibrant biosphere."

And AIDS:

"If radical environmentalists were to invent a disease to bring human population back to sanity, it would probably be something like AIDS… the possible benefits of this to the environment are staggering… just as the Plague contributed to the demise of feudalism, AIDS has the potential to end industrialism."

They were also great at putting famine in Ethiopia in its proper context:

"An individual human life has no more intrinsic value than does an individual Grizzly Bear life. Human suffering resulting from drought and famine in Ethiopia is tragic, yes, but the destruction there of other creatures and habitat is even more tragic."

Why? Because, as they astutely pointed out:

"We humans have become a disease -- the Humanpox."

Spot on! What great fellows.

dear god

[Os Cangaceiros]

I will say that I feel a little bit sorry for some of the ELF members in jail. It's a bitter pill to swallow when you get sent to USP Marion on terrorism-enhanced charges cuz someone snitched on you.

[Wanted Man]

Wow, this attitude must be why people are queuing round the block to join all these leftie groups! :rolleyes:

(...)

Awesome, why waste our time trying to "turn" anyone, let's just not bother then :rolleyes:

Of course, you'll always find a few people on Revleft who are perfectly willing to sneer at the "dumb masses" as an excuse for being inactive and unwelcoming. But other than that, I also don't think it's worthwhile trying to recruit individuals away from the fringes of liberal activism, or to try and "turn" organisations like the ELF.

[Dimentio]

Of course, you'll always find a few people on Revleft who are perfectly willing to sneer at the "dumb masses" as an excuse for being inactive and unwelcoming. But other than that, I also don't think it's worthwhile trying to recruit individuals away from the fringes of liberal activism, or to try and "turn" organisations like the ELF.

The problem with ELF in general and anarcho-primmies in particular is that when they enter left-wing groups, reason exits the other way. Soon, your group will be reduced to freeganism, men trying to breastfeed their babies and extreme lifestylism.

[Wanted Man]

Funny. :p But I was talking about the other way around: joining the likes of ELF to try and "turn" their supporters. Like I said, it seems like a waste of time. Why join with a group of people whom I privately consider "primmies" or whatever, and pretend to support them? Especially while at the same time trying to explain the benefits of socialism, the complete opposite of what they want?

Even if that web of contradictions had some unexpected benefits, these would be much smaller than the benefits of organising on class lines.

[this is an invasion]

Funny. :p But I was talking about the other way around: joining the likes of ELF to try and "turn" their supporters. Like I said, it seems like a waste of time. Why join with a group of people whom I privately consider "primmies" or whatever, and pretend to support them? Especially while at the same time trying to explain the benefits of socialism, the complete opposite of what they want?

Even if that web of contradictions had some unexpected benefits, these would be much smaller than the benefits of organising on class lines.

You don't "join" the ELF.

[Wanted Man]

Sure you do. You don't step up to a representative and buy a membership card, and there is not some kind of national organisation that you are part of, but of course you join them. Of course, the whole structure (or lack thereof) makes it even more pointless to do so with the purpose of "recruiting" the people you work with to some organisation.

[Raúl Duke]

dear god

This kind of perspective appears from time to time among environmentalist milleus. Not sure how widely held it is, but in Florida among the younger environmentalists they seldom have these views. I remember in the 2009 Earthday in my university there was this older guy who said something about humans being a parasite or disease. I think he also expressed some worry about 3rd world development, but the 1st statement was more striking in my mind.

My friend later told me "...ok, but with a view like that where does it get you?"

Those kinds of views, taken to their logical conclusion, leads to people supporting such batshit insane positions as those mentioned in that EF list.
Literally, a view like that gets you to supporting some sort of forced reduction/kill-off of the human population.

[Robocommie]

I heard that the only way you become ELF is if another ELF bites you.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I heard that the only way you become ELF is if another ELF bites you.

Kinky.

[¿Que?]

Also the your post you mention doesn't have anything to do with what I said. It's a stupid statement whether you say petit-bourgeois or middle class.

Yes it does. Because my original statement pertained to an attitude by the left more than an actual statement about the class composition and racial makeup of members of ELF.

You can respond if you like, but since you're just being a dumb troll, I'll probably ignore you (and your little dog toto). Good day sir...I said good day!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5QGkOGZubQ&feature=related

[this is an invasion]

Anyone who disagrees with a statement I made is a troll

fixt

[bcbm]

You can respond if you like, but since you're just being a dumb troll, I'll probably ignore you (and your little dog toto). Good day sir...I said good day!

you high?

[¿Que?]

you high?
No.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Although I think their activities are not very relevant to the class struggle I don't think calling them white middle class kids is very helpful. I don't see why we're using white as a derogatory term and supposedly "middle class" kids probably belong to the working class if we are using proper class analysis.

[Dimentio]

Although I think their activities are not very relevant to the class struggle I don't think calling them white middle class kids is very helpful. I don't see why we're using white as a derogatory term and supposedly "middle class" kids probably belong to the working class if we are using proper class analysis.

I agree with those sentiments. Anarcho-primmies are so few that it is almost irrelevant to talk about the class composition of that movement (though those whom I encountered strangely have parents active within the church as priests).

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I agree with those sentiments. Anarcho-primmies are so few that it is almost irrelevant to talk about the class composition of that movement (though those whom I encountered strangely have parents active within the church as priests).

I agree. It doesn't matter about these sort of environmentalists. But I do find it quite bizarre when people use such terms as "white" and "middle class" as derogatory terms. First off using proper class analysis most middle class people are working class. Secondly I don't really care where people come from as long as they support revolution. To me where they are from does not really matter.

[this is an invasion]

I agree. It doesn't matter about these sort of environmentalists. But I do find it quite bizarre when people use such terms as "white" and "middle class" as derogatory terms. First off using proper class analysis most middle class people are working class. Secondly I don't really care where people come from as long as they support revolution. To me where they are from does not really matter.

Everyone knows that White people can't be working class. They can only be middle class.


I know working class people that are involved in animal rights and environmentalist movements and I know middle class people (through a "bio-political" analysis of how power is structured - the middle class being those who mediate the tension, ie judges, cops, etc.) who have working class politics.

[commie 13]

Then it should be up to us, fellow Comrades, to help direct them to a more broader class direction on the political spectrum. Nay or yay?

i say yay, because the more of us there are the more we can do.