Successful Boycott Against Israeli Ship - Long Live Palestine!

[The Vegan Marxist]

Victory at Oakland port: Israeli ship blocked from unloading
Sunday, June 20, 2010
By: Gloria La Riva

First ever boycott at US port in solidarity with Palestine

http://www.pslweb.org/images/content/pagebuilder/63227.jpg

In an historic action and unprecedented action today, over 800 labor and community activists blocked the gates of the Oakland docks in the early morning hours, prompting longshore workers to refuse to cross the picket lines, where they were scheduled to unload an Israeli ship.

From 5:30 am to 9:30 am, a militant and spirited protest was held in front of four gates of the Stevedore Services of America, with people chanting non-stop, "Free, Free Palestine, Don’t Cross the Picket Line, and "An injury to one is an injury to all, the apartheid wall is going to fall."

Citing the health and safety provisions of their contract, the International Longshore and Warehouse Union workers refused to cross the picket line to report for duty.

Between 8:30 and 9:00 am, an emergency arbitration was conducted at the Maersk parking lot nearby, with an "instant" arbitrator called to the site, to rule on whether the workers could refuse to cross the picket line without disciplinary measure.

At 9:15 a.m, after again reviewing the protests of hundreds at each gate, the arbitrator ruled in favor of the union that it was indeed unsafe for the workers to enter the docks.

To loud cheers of "Long Live Palestine!" Jess Ghannam of Free Palestine Alliance and Richard Becker of the A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition announced the victory. Ghannam said "This is truly historic, never before has an Israeli ship been blocked in the United States!"

The news that a container ship from the Zim Israeli shipping line was scheduled to arrive in the Bay Area today, has sparked a tremendous outpouring of solidarity for Palestine, especially in the aftermath of the Israeli massacre of volunteers bringing humanitarian aid to Gaza on May 30.

With 10 days advance notice of the ship’s arrival, the emergency "Labor/Community Committee in Solidarity with the Palestinian People" was set up. On Wednesday, some 110 people from unions and community came to help organize logistics, outreach and community support. Initiating organizations included the Al-Awda Palestine Right to Return Coalition, the A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition, the Bay Area Labor Chapter of USLAW, and the Bay Area Labor Committee for Peace & Justice.

This week, the San Francisco Labor Council and Alameda Labor Council passed resounding resolutions denouncing Israel’s blockade of Gaza. Both councils sent out public notices of the dock action.

The ILWU has a proud history of extending its solidarity to struggling peoples the world over. In 1984, as the Black masses of South Africa were engaged in an intense struggle against South African apartheid, the ILWU refused for a record-setting 10 days to unload cargo from the South African "Ned Lloyd" ship. Despite million-dollar fines imposed on the union, the longshore workers held strong, providing a tremendous boost to the anti-apartheid movement.

Among the many solidarity statements that came in anticipation of the protest, were those of Palestinian and Cuban workers. The Palestinian General Federation of Trade Unions said, "Your action today is a milestone in international solidarity from honest and brave U.S. workers and trade unionists. Greetings to you from the trade unionists and workers of Palestine … from the trade unionists and workers trapped in Gaza."

The Central of Cuban Workers (CTC) wrote: "Our people have lived for 50 years of an unjust and abominable blockade by the U.S. government, so we understand very well how the Palestinian people feel and we will always be in solidarity with their just cause. Today we send you our most sincere support. Long live the solidarity of the working class! End the Blockade of Gaza! Respect and Justice for the people of Palestine!"

Today’s Oakland action, in the sixth largest port in the United States, is the first of several protests and work stoppages planned around the world, including Norway, Sweden and South Africa. It is sure to inspire others to do the same.

The goal is for a 24-hour shutdown of the docks where the Israeli ship is docked, so the protest is planned again for 4:30 p.m.

http://www.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=14123&news_iv_ctrl=1261

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

This is excellent; a display of real working class solidarity. I'd say that the chances of this being reported by the mass media are scarce to none though.

[Slavoj Zizzle]

Wow this is actually really cool. I'm surprised about the Cuban workers, I always thought the Cubans who came to this country were mostly reactionaries who fled Castro redistributing their wealth. Guess that's only a Florida thing :lol:

[Proletarian Ultra]

The ILWU is fucking amazing.

I'd expect they're going to be hit hard by a Labor Department audit or some shit because of this, probably months down the line when nobody will connect the dots. We need to all follow this and continue solidarity.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Wow this is actually really cool. I'm surprised about the Cuban workers, I always thought the Cubans who came to this country were mostly reactionaries who fled Castro redistributing their wealth. Guess that's only a Florida thing :lol:

That or they're willing to set aside their petty differences to a greater cause. Either way, this is excellent.

[Robocommie]

Wow this is actually really cool. I'm surprised about the Cuban workers, I always thought the Cubans who came to this country were mostly reactionaries who fled Castro redistributing their wealth. Guess that's only a Florida thing :lol:

I think even in Florida, there's quite a few poor Cubans who are pro-Castro. I just recently watched a documentary on Fidel, and it talked about how a lot of the emigres using rafts and small boats started coming over after the collapse of the Soviet Union, the beginning of the Special Period when the economy tanked. Lots resented the government I'm sure, but also I'm willing to bet lots also were merely looking for work.

[The Grey Blur]

How is this in anyway a victory?

Israel is not an apartheid state, and economic boycotts only hurt the worst-off in Israel aka the working class. You think the ceos and shareholders behind this shipping company will be hurt by this? No, the average stevedore, sailor and working Israeli will be. And in who's interest does Zionism/Imperialism operate in? The ceo and shareholder - it's the highest stage of capitalism. Economic boycotts are utterly moronic, display a misunderstanding of the definite differences in class makeup between South Africa under apartheid and Zionist Israel, and are just a way for middle-class students, academics and professional political activists to feel good about themselves.

[Proletarian Ultra]

How is this in anyway a victory?

Israel is not an apartheid state, and economic boycotts only hurt the worst-off in Israel aka the working class. You think the ceos and shareholders behind this shipping company will be hurt by this? No, the average stevedore, sailor and working Israeli will be. And in who's interest does Zionism/Imperialism operate in? The ceo and shareholder - it's the highest stage of capitalism. Economic boycotts are utterly moronic, display a misunderstanding of the definite differences in class makeup between South Africa under apartheid and Zionist Israel, and are just a way for middle-class students, academics and professional political activists to feel good about themselves.

Stop giving Trotskyism a bad name, Grey Blur.

[Coggeh]

Stop giving Trotskyism a bad name, Grey Blur.
Calling for a boycott in Israel is a reactionary line as it would only hurt the working class and give the israeli bourgeoisie more ammunition against left wing movements but would also stir up nationalism among Israelis to a greater extent by trying to portray that Israel is threathened and isolated by everyone .

And if you haven't anything else to say other than some moronic stalinist comment then you shouldn't probably have posted.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Calling for a boycott in Israel is a reactionary line as it would only hurt the working class and give the israeli bourgeoisie more ammunition against left wing movements but would also stir up nationalism among Israelis to a greater extent by trying to portray that Israel is threathened and isolated by everyone .

And if you haven't anything else to say other than some moronic stalinist comment then you shouldn't probably have posted.

And what Israel did to the Freedom Flotilla & the Rachel Corrie wasn't a blow against those that needed supplies, & fast? Compare the supplies in which are being blocked by both sides. We've got the aid going to the Gaza strip, in which are going to those suffering & fighting for an independent life from the Israeli bureaucracy, & then we've got the Israeli supplies coming in, in which is merely used through US-Israeli relations which is only helping stabalize the capitalist bureaucracy here. I'd rather see a boycott against the Israeli ships if Israel is to continue to allow what they've done to the aid ships. Every action has a re-action.

[Coggeh]

And what Israel did to the Freedom Flotilla & the Rachel Corrie wasn't a blow against those that needed supplies, & fast? Compare the supplies in which are being blocked by both sides. We've got the aid going to the Gaza strip, in which are going to those suffering & fighting for an independent life from the Israeli bureaucracy, & then we've got the Israeli supplies coming in, in which is merely used through US-Israeli relations which is only helping stabalize the capitalist bureaucracy here. I'd rather see a boycott against the Israeli ships if Israel is to continue to allow what they've done to the aid ships. Every action has a re-action.
A boycott of Israeli goods etc won't do anything but hurt the working class in Israel. Your blaming the working class for the crimes of the state a boycott is no solution you need to build a genuine workers movement in Israel and in Palestine which unites against the reactionary elements in both societies such as Hamas, Fatah and the Israeli government. A boycott will never achieve anything to change Israel

[Proletarian Ultra]

Calling for a boycott in Israel is a reactionary line as it would only hurt the working class and give the israeli bourgeoisie more ammunition against left wing movements but would also stir up nationalism among Israelis to a greater extent by trying to portray that Israel is threathened and isolated by everyone .

And if you haven't anything else to say other than some moronic stalinist comment then you shouldn't probably have posted.

Oh man, for a second I was hoping GB had just gone off the reservation. Is this the official CWI line then? Also, yes I am a Stalinist; but I know a great number of Trots doing yeoman's work on BDS. So if I wanted to give a moronic stalinist comment I would just say "look, Trots support apartheid!" But most of them I know are fighting hard against it. So CWI is giving Trotskyism a bad name.

[The Vegan Marxist]

A boycott of Israeli goods etc won't do anything but hurt the working class in Israel. Your blaming the working class for the crimes of the state a boycott is no solution you need to build a genuine workers movement in Israel and in Palestine which unites against the reactionary elements in both societies such as Hamas, Fatah and the Israeli government. A boycott will never achieve anything to change Israel

Our actions on the boycott is not an attack on the working class. It is a re-action against the pre-actions by Israel & their IDF soldiers. If anything, the working class should be attacking the Israeli-State for them to put people in a position where we'd have to take actions such as the boycott.

[Coggeh]

Our actions on the boycott is not an attack on the working class. It is a re-action against the pre-actions by Israel & their IDF soldiers. If anything, the working class should be attacking the Israeli-State for them to put people in a position where we'd have to take actions such as the boycott.
Yes it is. It hurts the working class. And of course its a reaction to what happened recently its just the wrong reaction.

Trying to blame the workers in Israel for putting in the right wing government shows no understanding of the material conditions for the Israeli working class. The working class in Israel isn't one solid entity and their have been many struggles against the far right government such as strikes etc. The only way to succeed in ending the constant onslaught on Gaza, the occupation of palestine etc is through a unified working class movement in both Israel and palestine.

No one forced you to boycott an Israeli ship and stigmatising the Israeli people for the actions of the state is completely off the wall reactionary.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Yes it is. It hurts the working class. And of course its a reaction to what happened recently its just the wrong reaction.

Trying to blame the workers in Israel for putting in the right wing government shows no understanding of the material conditions for the Israeli working class. The working class in Israel isn't one solid entity and their have been many struggles against the far right government such as strikes etc. The only way to succeed in ending the constant onslaught on Gaza, the occupation of palestine etc is through a unified working class movement in both Israel and palestine.

No one forced you to boycott an Israeli ship and stigmatising the Israeli people for the actions of the state is completely off the wall reactionary.
Won't any action hurt the working class? That's how capitalism works, if you hurt the companies you hurt the workers because capitalism has their balls in a vice very tightly. If the working class in Israel strikes it could hurt them, blocking a Israeli ship can hurt them, firebombing a bank can hurt them, stopping the construction of a building can hurt them, not letting logging companies log in forests can hurt the working class, in other words any attack on the capitalists can theoretically hurt them unless they're overthrowing them right? So is the answer to sit back and wait until we gather enough strength to overthrow the capitalists?

[Coggeh]

Won't any action hurt the working class? That's how capitalism works, if you hurt the companies you hurt the workers because capitalism has their balls in a vice very tightly. If the working class in Israel strikes it could hurt them, blocking a Israeli ship can hurt them, firebombing a bank can hurt them, stopping the construction of a building can hurt them, not letting logging companies log in forests can hurt the working class, in other words any attack on the capitalists can theoretically hurt them unless they're overthrowing them right? So is the answer to sit back and wait until we gather enough strength to overthrow the capitalists?
May have understood my point. when workers stand up for themselves and get organised they do take risks and make many sacrifcies which has to be done.

When "activists" in other countries organise a boycott on Israel which hurts Israeli workers primariliy when they don't even support a boycott its achieves nothing in terms of advancing a real workers struggle in Israel and Palestine.

[Chimurenga.]

Public dissent against Israel in defense of Palestine has to be pushed in the US. When people see that or they walk by this, they will learn about the crimes that Israel has committed against Palestine. A view that is not popular in the US. Whether Coggeh or The Grey Blur like it, these actions need to be pursued. Especially in the US.

You can't please everyone.

[Coggeh]

Public dissent against Israel in defense of Palestine has to be pushed in the US. When people see that or they walk by this, they will learn about the crimes that Israel has committed against Palestine. A view that is not popular in the US. Whether Coggeh or The Grey Blur like it, these actions need to be pursued. Especially in the US.

You can't please everyone.
You act as if boycotting is the only option on the table ?

[Lulznet]

Now thats what I call a blockade. :thumbup1:

[Saorsa]

Ah, the CWI. Telling people off people fighting against oppression, whether they do it holding a placard or a gun, because this fight against oppression might upset the privileged sections of the 'proletariat' in a country like Israel.

The working class only ever develops a revolutionary consciousness when it's ruling class has suffered defeats. Revolutions don't happen in imperialist countries where the ruling class is on the winning side of a conflict - until the Israeli state starts to suffer a series of political, economic, military and diplomatic defeats the Israeli workers have no reason to break with Zionism. Why would they? Zionism so far is delivering them one of the highest standards of living in the Middle East and a certain amount of protection from the evil Arabs on the other side of the wall.

You're nothing but economistic gas and water socialists. Revolutionary communism is about more than workplace relations! The only interactions the Palestinian and Israeli working class have tend to feature an IDF rifle in between, and your telling Palestinians and their supporters not to target the Israeli state because it might upset the privileged Jewish settlers living on stolen land, who are complicit in an ongoing campaign of ethnic cleansing and genocide against the Palestinians?

I can just picture you in my country in the late 1800s/early 1900s telling Maori warriors not to shoot back at the pakeha colonial troops invading their land because to do so will only hurt poor working class lads in uniform. Instead they should let their land be stolen and let themselves be ethnically cleansed, in order to build working class unity or some shit.

No, Israel is not apartheid. Apartheid was based on the whites exploiting the labour of the blacks, whereas the Israelis don't want the Palestinians around at all and have a lot of foreign labourers. So the fuck what? You're quibbling over a minor point while genuine Marxists are fighting to build solidarity with the Palestinian resistance and target the Israeli state.

Lenin is spinning in his grave - it's a crime that social-democratic economists like the CWI call themselves Leninist.


The working class in Israel isn't one solid entity and their have been many struggles against the far right government such as strikes etc.

So... the Israeli settler proletariat is defending minor attacks on its privilege. Strikes are not inherently progressive - they can take place quite easily within the framework of reaction and the defense of privilege. White workers struck against black authors being taught in US schools - should we point to that and say oh look, a developing proletarian consciousness amongst white workers? The CWI might, but actual communists wouldn't.

I don't think the Israeli working class will develop any kind of revolutionary consciousness until Israel starts to suffer a series of military, political, social, economic and diplomatic defeats. The workers of an imperialist state on the winning side generally don't tend to rise up. Revolutionary consciousness in France, the US and elsewhere in the 60s and 70s developed due in no small part to the defeats suffered by French and US imperialism in the Third World. The Portugese Revolution was triggered almost directly by Portugal's defeats in Angola and Mozambique.

Until the IDF soldiers start dying in their thousands the Israeli working class will keep living it's privileged, parasitical and colonialist existence. And to call on Palestinians to get down on their knees and beg racist Israeli workers to 'unite' with them is not only ridiculous and chauvinistic, it's completely counter-productive to the task of actually breaking the link between Israeli workers and Zionism.

A revolutionary consciousness will not develop among the proletariat of an imperialist nation on the dominant, winning side. This is why we support national liberation struggles - not because colonialism is morally wrong, not because we want oppressed peoples to have self-determination for the sake of it, but because every blow to imperialism is a wake up call to the working class in the imperialist world - particular to the working class in the imperialist countries getting dealt the blows.

This is why our support has to go to the Palestinian armed struggle. This is why our support has to go to the resistance in Iraq, and Afghanistan, and Kashmir, and Ireland, and Kurdistan, and everywhere else imperialism is at war with oppression national movements. If we want to see workers in the imperialist nations developing a *revolutionary communist consciousness*, not just a "more wages" trade union consciousness, we need to see imperialism getting fucked up.

The Israeli 'proletariat' and the Israeli bourgeoisie are united within one framework and with one particular goal - holding the Palestinian's down. And until that becomes impossible, through the resistance of the Palestinian people (using any means they deem necessary), the Israeli working class will keep happily lapping up the cream of the Zionist colonial project.

White workers in South Africa went on strike for better wages and conditions. White workers in the American South went on strike for better wages and conditions. A privileged elite defending its privileges is not somehow evidence of Israeli workers breaking with Zionism. The Israeli state was practically created out of the Histadrut, the Zionist trade unions, and the Israeli workers have always been happy to strike either in our out of this union umbrella.

So what?

Workers can strike for purely economic gains for themselves and do so within the framework of a racist, colonialist ideology and concrete project - there isn't necessarily a contradiction there. Israeli workers, living on stolen land while the Palestinians sit just over the fence in squalid refugee camps, do not deserve our solidarity just because they happen to be exploited by capitalist bosses. Until they break with Zionism and stop actively or passively participating in the Occupation, Israeli workers are as much part of the problem as Israeli bosses. This isn't true in most countries, but it is in a country like Israel where the occupation is an ever present reality for all Palestinians and all Israelis. Israel is an ongoing colonial project - the Palestinian people are still being dispossessed and ethnically cleansed, and our solidarity lies with them, not the settlers replacing them who happen to occasionally demand higher wages.

To tell Palestinians in Gaza not to resist the IDF as part of a resistance movement based among *their people*, and to instead get down on their knees and plead with racist, Zionist Israeli workers to see the light and take their side, is condescending, arrogant and completely utopian. And while you'll deny it, this is in effect what you're arguing. To call on Palestinians to prioritise the class war (in Gaza, with majority unemployment!) over the war of resistance against Israel is totally ridiculous.

The path to an Israeli working class consciousness can be found in Palestinian rockets. And we can help out through actions like this boycott - bloody good stuff to everyone involved.

[Coggeh]

Ah, the CWI. Telling people off people fighting against oppression, whether they do it holding a placard or a gun, because this fight against oppression might upset the privileged sections of the 'proletariat' in a country like Israel.

The working class only ever develops a revolutionary consciousness when it's ruling class has suffered defeats. Revolutions don't happen in imperialist countries where the ruling class is on the winning side of a conflict - until the Israeli state starts to suffer a series of political, economic, military and diplomatic defeats the Israeli workers have no reason to break with Zionism. Why would they? Zionism so far is delivering them one of the highest standards of living in the Middle East and a certain amount of protection from the evil Arabs on the other side of the wall.
The same way any other workers would. Israel isn't a paraside for workers or do all you 3rd worldists think that white and "priviledged" workers live in mini mansions next to the bourgeoisie?

You build real working socialist alternatives to the Israeli bourgeois in israel and in Palestine you don't make allowances for reactionary anti worker movements like hamas and other so called "anti-imperialists".

Hell if all it takes is inflicting economic pain lets burn all the buildings down and bomb the hell out the country maybe that'll inspire a workers revolution? You are ignoring reality and the reality that faces the Israeli working class.


You're nothing but economistic gas and water socialists. Revolutionary communism is about more than workplace relations! ya heard it all before but the CWI actually have a presence within the working class.


The only interactions the Palestinian and Israeli working class have tend to feature an IDF rifle in between your forgetting the millions of palestinian and arabic workers in Israel ?


and your telling Palestinians and their supporters not to target the Israeli state because it might upset the privileged Jewish settlers living on stolen land, who are complicit in an ongoing campaign of ethnic cleansing and genocide against the Palestinians?When have we ever told not palestinians fight back against Israeli the Israeli state? what we don't support is anti working class movements like hamas firing rockets on civilians thinking their going to achieve a thing.

And also people who think boycotting Nestle is going to bring down the Israeli state ? without any workers alternative in Israel its going to achieve sweet f**k all.





I can just picture you in my country in the late 1800s/early 1900s telling Maori warriors not to shoot back at the pakeha colonial troops invading their land because to do so will only hurt poor working class lads in uniform. Instead they should let their land be stolen and let themselves be ethnically cleansed, in order to build working class unity or some shit.Seriously? at least try and make a decent point.



No, Israel is not apartheid. Apartheid was based on the whites exploiting the labour of the blacks, whereas the Israelis don't want the Palestinians around at all and have a lot of foreign labourers. So the fuck what? You're quibbling over a minor point while genuine Marxists are fighting to build solidarity with the Palestinian resistance and target the Israeli state.Yes while the "genuine marxists" are cosying up to nationalism, reactionary movements and anti-worker thugs like hamas were just squabbling trying to build a united workers movement to overthrow capitalism in Israel and Palestine.



Lenin is spinning in his grave - it's a crime that social-democratic economists like the CWI call themselves Leninist.This coming from the person who is lambasting the CWI for actually trying to pursue the same tactics that were used in the Russian revolution ?




So... the Israeli settler proletariat is defending minor attacks on its privilege. Strikes are not inherently progressive - they can take place quite easily within the framework of reaction and the defense of privilege. White workers struck against black authors being taught in US schools - should we point to that and say oh look, a developing proletarian consciousness amongst white workers? The CWI might, but actual communists wouldn't.Defending minor attacks on privilige ? Irish workers are better off than Israeli workers i don't fucking feel priviliged thats for damn sure.If you want to be a nationalist and a 3rd worldist reactionary fine by me but don't go talking about marxism at the same time.

Eh, sadly no the strikes im talking about are progressive your petty off the ball points aren't much good here:
http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/2951
http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/1556
http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/930
http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/699
http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/2924
just to provide a few examples.
And also the biggest protests to the gaza flotilla attacks outside turkey exculded were not in europe or anywhere else they were in Israel where jewish and arab workers united against the agression of the Israeli state.


I don't think the Israeli working class will develop any kind of revolutionary consciousness until Israel starts to suffer a series of military, political, social, economic and diplomatic defeats. The workers of an imperialist state on the winning side generally don't tend to rise up. Revolutionary consciousness in France, the US and elsewhere in the 60s and 70s developed due in no small part to the defeats suffered by French and US imperialism in the Third World. The Portugese Revolution was triggered almost directly by Portugal's defeats in Angola and Mozambique.By your logic the whole world such be in a state of revolution right now because of the global recession, hard times for the state mean sweet nothing unless their is a left alternative capable of seizing on the discontent, if any this boycott would push Israeli workers further to the right, wait no it definetly will.



Until the IDF soldiers start dying in their thousands the Israeli working class will keep living it's privileged, parasitical and colonialist existence. And to call on Palestinians to get down on their knees and beg racist Israeli workers to 'unite' with them is not only ridiculous and chauvinistic, it's completely counter-productive to the task of actually breaking the link between Israeli workers and Zionism. And how are the IDF going to start dying in their thousands? seriously?

how is it counter productive what your saying is we should keep suscribing the divide and rule tactics by the bourgeoise of the Israeli govt and Hamas that Israeli workers and Palestinian workers cannot unite in their common class interest. Also Israeli workers are parasites? how so ? do they own any factories? or are they just striking for the hell of it ?



This is why our support has to go to the Palestinian armed struggle. This is why our support has to go to the resistance in Iraq, and Afghanistan, and Kashmir, and Ireland, and Kurdistan, and everywhere else imperialism is at war with oppression national movements. If we want to see workers in the imperialist nations developing a *revolutionary communist consciousness*, not just a "more wages" trade union consciousness, we need to see imperialism getting fucked up.What resistance? the "dissidents" who go planting car bombs near schools ?

Oh yeah totally rad man lets stick it to the man and fuck up imperialism. Or you could actually... maybe .. I dunno... GET INVOLVED WITH THE WORKING CLASS! instead of suscribing only to these BS nationalist movements again i point out your comment about lenin should the bolsheviks have applied your logic to imperialist Russia? that no you can't work with them "privileged" russians have to support the "anti imperialist" nationalist movements against them to strike a blow that would wake up the working class in russia and then they'd overthrow capitalism.

OR

You could have done what the bolsheviks actually did : established a real fighting alternative for the russian working class and for the soldiers who were being forced to fight in an imperialist war for the Tsar (who you would have probably wrote off as imperialist parasites) united russians and national minorities against the provisional govt and overthrow capitalism.


The Israeli 'proletariat' and the Israeli bourgeoisie are united within one framework and with one particular goal - holding the Palestinian's down. And until that becomes impossible, through the resistance of the Palestinian people (using any means they deem necessary), the Israeli working class will keep happily lapping up the cream of the Zionist colonial project.So your saying its better for Israeli workers to support the bourgeoise against the palestinians than to unite with palestinians and overthrow the dictatorship of the market?


White workers in South Africa went on strike for better wages and conditions. White workers in the American South went on strike for better wages and conditions. A privileged elite defending its privileges is not somehow evidence of Israeli workers breaking with Zionism. The Israeli state was practically created out of the Histadrut, the Zionist trade unions, and the Israeli workers have always been happy to strike either in our out of this union umbrella. Striking doesn't show a break with zionism same way striking doesn't show a break with capitalism on its own, but it shows a clear class counciousness that for any gain the Israeli working class have that they have to defend them gains, fight against privitisation etc through striking.






To tell Palestinians in Gaza not to resist the IDF as part of a resistance movement based among *their people*, and to instead get down on their knees and plead with racist, Zionist Israeli workers to see the light and take their side, is condescending, arrogant and completely utopian. And while you'll deny it, this is in effect what you're arguing. To call on Palestinians to prioritise the class war (in Gaza, with majority unemployment!) over the war of resistance against Israel is totally ridiculous.Again just to point out we never said we don't support the right of palestian armed resistance. we do.


The path to an Israeli working class consciousness can be found in Palestinian rockets. And we can help out through actions like this boycott - bloody good stuff to everyone involved.what are rockets going to achieve? ever hear of the 6 day war? whats a couple of 60 year old rockets going to do ? but you know its always easier to say ya lets fight imperialism man with rockets yeah ! and sound great than it is to actually put forward something real.

And one thing lastly i would like to point out .Not once in your big long rant have you put anything forward that even resembles a marxists position .

[The Grey Blur]

White workers in South Africa went on strike for better wages and conditions. Demonstrates the inability to comprehend the major differences between SA under apartheid and Israel today that I spoke of in my first post. Knee-jerk politics of the worst-kind. There was no white working class in SA in any real sense...there most certainly is a working-class in Israel. Furthermore, look at the achievements of the 'armed struggle' in SA - pragmatism, coopted into the state, and with an economic apartheid now in place rather than a political one. This is the only way these issues can be dealth with within a capitalist, militarist, stageist, perspective. The same thing is happening now in NI, and the left adventurist cheerleaders from around the world adored the PIRA, and then were dismayed when the 'revolution' was betrayed. You will see, have seen, and are seeing similar with Hamas, PFLP, the PA etcetc...only a worker's alternative will liberate the Palestinian people and the Israeli working-class.


The path to an Israeli working class consciousness can be found in Palestinian rocketsBeyond parody.

http://www.marxist.com/israeli-states-increasing-violence.htm

EDIT: Furthermore, to all the Hamas cheerleaders...do you really believe bottle rockets into working-class Israeli areas are going to change fuck all? I'm not going to condemn the desperate tactics of the Palestinians...I'm not going to do the bourgeois media's job...I think what you are all missing it that Coggeh and I aren't opposed to the self-determination of the Palestinians and the dismantling of the Zionist state...we simply disagree on the tactics to achieve that. And speaking on a personal level I can give examples of how the militarist struggle failed in Nothern Ireland, and the lessons the left here are trying to learn from that, the lessons Marxists have to take from any historical incident and apply to the present. Throwing your toys out of the pram with sectarian jibes, straw-man arguments, and mass 'thanking' of posts rather than voicing opinions are all a bit pathetic.

[Proletarian Ultra]

I'll respond to some of your and Coggeh's other points later, but I'd like to take this one right now.


Furthermore, to all the Hamas cheerleaders...do you really believe bottle rockets into working-class Israeli areas are going to change fuck all?

It already has. The rocket attacks have forced the Zionist regime into a massive overreaction that has split off Turkey and the EU from amongst its allies and left it illegitimate in world progressive opinion. I emphatically do not endorse the rocket attacks. But to say that they have changed fuck all is nonsense.

[The Grey Blur]

LOL! :D Okay little child...world progressive opinion...and you include Turkey and the EU in this. Are you mental? I'm sorry, I thought I was debating a Marxist, not a 'progressive'...and of course the rocket attacks have nothing to do with the Flotilla attacks, though they were the precursor and excuse for the Israeli state to massacre Palestinian workers in their 1000s, just as Marxists foresee individual terrorism as doing.

I just returned to this thread to post a few thoughts: first of all, we have two members from Israel, occupied Palestine. Yehuda Stern, and Palestine. There are probably more posters in fact. Are those two complicit in the Zionist state? Because I presume they are Israeli citizens, students or workers, and the sort of people who could be killed by the rocket attacks or suicide bombs, or hurt economically by boycotts or sanctions. And secondly as Coggy said the biggest protests outside of Turkey were in Israel itself! Where Israeli workers and students protested the right-wing governments actions. The fact is you people are in cloud cuckoo-land, and as you've amply demonstrated, anything but dialectical materialists, and anything but Marxists.

'World progressive opinion'...:laugh:

EDIT: http://blogs.aljazeera.net/imperium/2010/06/02/silent-jewish-majority

[Proletarian Ultra]

'World progressive opinion'...:laugh:

EDIT: http://blogs.aljazeera.net/imperium/2010/06/02/silent-jewish-majority

lol those activists in the story you linked to are funny as shit! feckin' bourgeois toffs!

[Rusty Shackleford]

The israeli working class, for the most part, is hardly conscious/politically developed.

it is still very reactionary and colonialist.

to say that the action on 6/20 hurt the israeli working class is, honestly, retarded. we were there to tell israel to fuck off for at least a day. why? Israel and a large segment of its population, regardless of class, is reactionary and colonialist. since israels foundation, the palestinian working class has been under constant attack. this is in support of the palestinian proletariat and the people of pelestine in general.

hundreds of us woke up at 3:30 in the morning to get to the port of oakland to make sure that that ship didnt get unloaded. it was mostly symbolic but also went to show that the ILWU, other unions, working class parties, and the american palestinian/arab community are starting to come out more forcefully against zionism. (some are already keen on anti-zionism but a representative of the ILWU made it clear that the american working class MUST oppose zionism)

so, if you are worried about hurting the israeli working class... i hope you find comfort in billions more being sent to the apartheid regime by the US to help the poor beleaguered israeli working class.


EDIT: at the end of the day, after we were wrapping up and were hearing the communications from Cuba and Palestine, i was starting to get a bit misty eyed honestly. also, it was really nice hearing an ILWU worker leading a chant "An injury to one is an injury to all" which we all chanted 3 times at the end.

[Crux]

so, if you are worried about hurting the israeli working class... i hope you find comfort in billions more being sent to the apartheid regime by the US to help the poor beleaguered israeli working class.
Haha. Don't be a parody, comrade.

[Proletarian Ultra]

Haha. Don't be a parody, comrade.

Comrade Vacant gave us a beautiful report on a groundbreaking show of international labor solidarity, and this is your response?

[Crux]

Comrade Vacant gave us a beautiful report on a groundbreaking show of international labor solidarity, and this is your response?
Failing attemps a sarcasm deserve no less. Failing in a rather telling way no less. International union support, of course is a step in the right direction. But let's no fool ourselfs. I think the comradees have already outlined the criticism correctly. Free free palstine. Yes, but don't forget the much more crucial question "how".

[Rusty Shackleford]

Failing attemps a sarcasm deserve no less. Failing in a rather telling way no less. International union support, of course is a step in the right direction. But let's no fool ourselfs. I think the comradees have already outlined the criticism correctly. Free free palstine. Yes, but don't forget the much more crucial question "how".

well, the "right to return" would be a great step forward. i forget the UN resolution it falls under but it would certainly be a step forward for the Palestinian people.

obviously a single action will not bring the liberation of palestine about by tomorrow.

neither will a single may day demo lead to the emancipation of the working class.

its a process. and for the US... this demo is a great achievement for the movement. a necessary part of the process towards class consciousness and solidarity with oppressed nationalities.

[Proletarian Ultra]

There was no white working class in SA in any real sense...there most certainly is a working-class in Israel.

Socialist revolution must come about as the free action of the proletariat as a class in itself and for itself. The Jewish and Arab proletariat in Palestine is presently divided from itself by a wall. The 'working class in Israel' is not even a class in itself as long as workers on one side of the wall are alienated from workers on the other side; it's certainly incapable of acting as a class for itself until the wall is torn down.

Abolishing the apartheid regime is the most urgent priority of the proletarian vanguard in Israel/Palestine. Tailing Histadrut is the very opposite of what needs to be done.


Furthermore, look at the achievements of the 'armed struggle' in SA - pragmatism, coopted into the state, and with an economic apartheid now in place rather than a political one.

Your belittlement of the abolition of apartheid is telling.



Free free palstine. Yes, but

"Yes, but" seems to be a running theme with you people.

[Saorsa]

There was no white working class in SA in any real sense...there most certainly is a working-class in Israel.

I'll respond to the rest of your gas and water socialist rant some other time, but this deserves attention. This is a pretty bold claim to make. Do explain why Israel has a proletariat but South Africa's whites, apparently, didn't.

You're saying no white people, in any real sense, sold their ability to work to employers in South Africa? Really?

Put down the British flag and do some reading mate.

[Barry Lyndon]

94% of the Israeli Jewish public supported the massacres in Gaza, and something around 80% supported the attack on the flotilla. That tells me all I need to know about the 'consciousness' of the 'Israeli working class'. They don't need any more 'alienating'. Their already, for the most part, completely disconnected with reality. Your sobbing over Israeli 'workers' being 'hurt' while Gaza is being suffocated by a medieval siege exposes your closet Zionism for all to see. Congratulations.

I can just imagine the reactions these stupid ultra-lefts would have had to other events:

Haitian revolution, 1791- 'Hey, those white overseers the black slaves killed were working class! We'll never be able to get any support for abolitionism now!'

Pullman strike, 1894- 'The railway workers shouldn't have go on strike for an 8-hour day! They'll just make more work for the poor little working class Pinkertons!'

Warsaw Ghetto uprising, 1943-'Don't you know the Waffen-SS are mostly working class? Shame on you!!! Their just doing their job!'

This was a heroic action. I hope there are many more like it.

[Saorsa]

It's not the responsibility of Palestinians to break Israeli workers from Zionism. It's the responsibility of Israeli 'workers' to break from Zionism, and if they don't then they're just settler colonial scum who deserve everything they get.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpKObPFtcBA

[Rusty Shackleford]

It's not the responsibility of Palestinians to break Israeli workers from Zionism. It's the responsibility of Israeli 'workers' to break from Zionism, and if they don't then they're just settler colonial scum who deserve everything they get.

UpKObPFtcBA


haha i spotted myself. anyways that band was really awesome. it made doing party work, marching, and chanting more entertaining :D

[Wanted Man]

Perhaps the usual CWI social-democrats can tell us exactly how this action hurt Israeli workers. It's just something that was suggested by one of them in this thread, and it was taken as gospel from there on.

The reason I have my doubts is that they've proven themselves a bunch of liars already. There is something distinctly Orwellian about denouncing "anti-working class" American workers who decide to voice their solidarity with Palestinian workers in this way, while beating yourself on the chest for "a presence within the working class". As if no-one else does. As if the American trade unionists are a bunch of Hamas fans who want to hurt Israeli workers. As if the response from the Palestinian workers means nothing.

Anyway, I'd just like to tell the CWI to keep up the good work, denouncing working-class action and all that.

Edit @ Barry: the CWI are not ultra-left, of course. They are opportunist accessories of social-democracy and smug pricks.

[Saorsa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEnM3VldJIw

Militant organised workers taking political action that goes beyond bread and butter wage demands. Workers exercising their indiustrial muscle for political reasons, internationalist reasons, to show solidarity with their brothers and sisters on the other side of the world. Any real communist would think that was fantastic!

Except, of course, for the CWI. Wonder why that is?

[Crux]

"Yes, but" seems to be a running theme with you people.
Ah, dishonest and misrepresentating quoting. How clever.

Your ignorance of the present day situation in SA is telling, indeed very telling for what future your line might bring a free palestine. I am sorry if we prefer working class struggle, to tailing the self-styled "national librators" of bourgoisie like the Fatah and Hamas leadership. Indeed, if SA of today is the future you want for palestine then thanks for proving our point.

Ah and who is tailing "Histadrut"? Certainly not the CWI in Israel who are involved in building an indpendent union, but I would pehaps b too much o expect that you might have some basis for your, quit desperate accusations.

Comrade Alastair: That's a reducto ad absurdum argument.

Barry Lyndon: You seem pretty sure about those numbers, but i think you'll find you've made hem up. Now there's no denying there is a fairly powfull far-right nationalist hegemony in Israel and *dspite ha* a majority of isralis polled dissaproved of the attack on the flotilla. I haven't slept in a bit too many hours a prsent but I'll dig up the source for you later. Oh and our "closet-zionism" is about as real as any number of accusations of being an anti-semite or even a nazi flung at me from rabid zionists so. yah. Classy company you're in though. And if you think our concern or class struggle is out of "feeling sorry for" he siaraeli working class mayb you need to go ovr your ABC's of marxism a couple of more times.

[Barry Lyndon]

Edit @ Barry: the CWI are not ultra-left, of course. They are opportunist accessories of social-democracy and smug pricks.

The two go hand in hand. I see essentially no difference.

[Saorsa]

Comrade Alastair: That's a reducto ad absurdum argument.

No it's a communist argument. Usually you put that kind of argument forward yourself - sadly, not on this issue.

[Crux]

Perhaps the usual CWI social-democrats can tell us exactly how this action hurt Israeli workers. It's just something that was suggested by one of them in this thread, and it was taken as gospel from there on.

The reason I have my doubts is that they've proven themselves a bunch of liars already. There is something distinctly Orwellian about denouncing "anti-working class" American workers who decide to voice their solidarity with Palestinian workers in this way, while beating yourself on the chest for "a presence within the working class". As if no-one else does. As if the American trade unionists are a bunch of Hamas fans who want to hurt Israeli workers. As if the response from the Palestinian workers means nothing.

Anyway, I'd just like to tell the CWI to keep up the good work, denouncing working-class action and all that.

Edit @ Barry: the CWI are not ultra-left, of course. They are opportunist accessories of social-democracy and smug pricks.
I will agre to the grey blur entering on a rather uniplomatic tone. But discussing the obvious limits of a boycott campaign (often temed with demands for the respective national governments to "denounce" Israel) is essential.

[Barry Lyndon]

Barry Lyndon: You seem pretty sure about those numbers, but i think you'll find you've made hem up. Now there's no denying there is a fairly powfull far-right nationalist hegemony in Israel and *dspite ha* a majority of isralis polled dissaproved of the attack on the flotilla. I haven't slept in a bit too many hours a prsent but I'll dig up the source for you later. Oh and our "closet-zionism" is about as real as any number of accusations of being an anti-semite or even a nazi flung at me from rabid zionists so. yah. Classy company you're in though. And if you think our concern or class struggle is out of "feeling sorry for" he siaraeli working class mayb you need to go ovr your ABC's of marxism a couple of more times.

For the flotilla raid, its actually 85%. http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2010/0609/Why-Israel-ignores-global-criticism-of-Gaza-flotilla-raid
My poll number for the Gaza attack comes from the Jerusalem Post.

Time to abandon your Labour Zionist fantasies.

[Crux]

No it's a communist argument. Usually you put that kind of argument forward yourself - sadly, not on this issue.
Well, here's the super-short answer, there is a substantial jewish working class in Israel, not comparable to the relative minority of white worker's in apartheid SA. Now, I really ned to go get some sleep, so talk to you laer.

[Crux]

For the flotilla raid, its actually 85%. http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2010/0609/Why-Israel-ignores-global-criticism-of-Gaza-flotilla-raid
My poll number for the Gaza attack comes from the Jerusalem Post.

Time to abandon your Labour Zionist fantasies.
I wouldn't take the polling of far-right zionist mouthpiece Jerusalm Post at face value. That's like watching Fox News to get a feel for the mood of the american working class.

And yes "labor zionism". Ah, call us "trotskyist-fascists" why don't you, it is about as honest and makes about as much sense.

[Wanted Man]

I will agre to the grey blur entering on a rather uniplomatic tone. But discussing the obvious limits of a boycott campaign (often temed with demands for the respective national governments to "denounce" Israel) is essential.

But that's not what you guys have said at all so far. What Grey Blur and others said is that boycotting Israel is wrong under all circumstances because it "hurts Israeli workers".


Militant organised workers taking political action that goes beyond bread and butter wage demands. Workers exercising their indiustrial muscle for political reasons, internationalist reasons, to show solidarity with their brothers and sisters on the other side of the world. Any real communist would think that was fantastic!

Except, of course, for the CWI. Wonder why that is?

Yeah, weird. Unfortunately for them, there are many more uppity workers in the world who have the bloody nerve to disobey the ones who know what's best for them, the CWI:

Sweden, Norway Act Against Israel (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704183204575288222251185504.html?m od=googlenews_wsj)

Australian unions join in (http://www.stopdebezetting.com/boycot-divestment-sanctions-bds/palestina-unions-act-to-isolate-israel.html)

Pro-Israel group banned from UK trade union conference (http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=176516)

World Federation of Trade Unions calls for worldwide action against Israeli vessels (http://www.wftucentral.org/?p=3165&language=en)

Holy shit! It has got to be a lot of work for all the CWI sections in the world to constantly tell their members that this is actually bad and anti-working class. Does it take a lot of effort to constantly write new denunciations in several languages, or is there some kind of template that can be reused again and again? "For a Socialist Federation of Israel and Palestine!"

[Fietsketting]

Oh man, for a second I was hoping GB had just gone off the reservation. Is this the official CWI line then? Also, yes I am a Stalinist; but I know a great number of Trots doing yeoman's work on BDS. So if I wanted to give a moronic stalinist comment I would just say "look, Trots support apartheid!" But most of them I know are fighting hard against it. So CWI is giving Trotskyism a bad name.
Luckily you dont have a good name to defend being a Stalinist and all that. :thumbup1:

[Wanted Man]

Luckily you dont have a good name to defend being a stalinist and all that. :thumbup1:

The state, media, and Israel supporters always red-bait their opponents. Good to see that tradition being followed here.

[Fietsketting]

The state, media, and Israel supporters always red-bait their opponents. Good to see that tradition being followed here.

Thats the big problem. If your not with us you must be against us right?

Try to understand that there are people out there who feel no good can come from neither regimes. And yes, ofcourse i aint agreeing with how Israël treats the palastines but that doesn't mean I have to stand on the barricades for em cause I disagree with the way Hamas conducts his struggle as well.

Its really not that hard to understand you know? And on top of that. You know me and you know I am not state, media or a Israel supporter ;)

[Wanted Man]

I don't know you, actually. I have no idea who you are beyond the nickname and avatar (correct me if I'm wrong). :p Of course I realise that you or anyone else arguing your point is not an Israel supporter.

The reason I made the previous post is that it's worth considering what we choose to focus on. In every discussion on Israel in the western media, something will be said along the lines of:

"Yes, but look at Hamas, who lob rockets into Israel and hide among their people."

And when it comes to the Palestinian movement:

"Well, a lot of these people are reds who back Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot." (this will even be said when most people are overwhelmingly anti-Stalinist or simply don't care, while anarchists will be associated with hooliganism or whatever)

The guy you were quoting was making a good statement about how some left groups are apparently so eager to please that they seem to denounce any working-class solidarity with Palestine, which these union actions definitely are. He then added that you cannot blame trotskyists for this, because others take a very different position. What I don't understand is why some people respond to this with, "Yes, but Hamas..." or "Yes, but stalinists..."

I do think that response echoes the knee-jerk reflex that all the pro-Israel ideologues on TV are trying to instil, even though it's obviously not intentional. I also do think it's useful and necessary that people in other countries stand in solidarity with the Palestinians, if not because of, then despite Hamas. It's naïve to think that it's just a fight between two "bad regimes" where one happens to be the stronger.

I can get into some specifics about this and about Hamas later, but I've got to run now. Exam. :(

[Fietsketting]

I do think that response echoes the knee-jerk reflex that all the pro-Israel ideologues on TV are trying to instil, even though it's obviously not intentional. I also do think it's useful and necessary that people in other countries stand in solidarity with the Palestinians, if not because of, then despite Hamas. It's naïve to think that it's just a fight between two "bad regimes" where one happens to be the stronger.. :(

On the other side you could state that Palestine has turned into exactly the same thing as your descripe just from a leftist point of view. Technicly i could argue that its counter revolutionairy and nationalistic to support the founding of a religious based state. The comment that you support the palestinians despite Hamas is a good one, but then support the Israëli's as well despite their goverment! Or neither at all!



I can get into some specifics about this and about Hamas later, but I've got to run now. Exam.

Good luck!

[soyonstout]

From what I've heard, this wasn't a 'victory,' for anyone except the reputation of some of the groups involved. It appears that everything was cleared with the police beforehand, that the ship was only stopped for 24 hours (if that), that it wasn't that dockworkers 'refused to cross a picket line' but that an arbitrator from the bourgeois state ruled that going to work was unsafe and allowed workers to go home with pay.

I don't think this represents anything about any level with which to gauge the apparent solidarity or non-solidarity with "the palestinian people" (as opposed to the palestinian workers who are exploited by the leaders of the 'palestinian people'), because from what I've heard people describe the labor council in SF do, this sounds like something that union bureacrats and a few left groups decided to do and didn't really require the workers to do anything themselves except stay home.

(info from a local and more debate on libcom: http://libcom.org/news/israeli-ship-blockaded-san-francisco-dockworkers-refuse-cross-picket-21062010 (http://www.revleft.com/vb/info%20from%20a%20local%20and%20more%20debate:%20% 20http://libcom.org/news/israeli-ship-blockaded-san-francisco-dockworkers-refuse-cross-picket-21062010))*

More to the point, though, if you promise that your action will be over in a day after you bring the cameras out and then capitalism will resume as normal, and the state approves, you can neither call this a real 'struggle' or a 'victory' (what was won, by the way? a 24 hr delay in the shipping of Israeli goods? This does what for the world working class?)

In my understanding of 20th/21st C history, workers need to spread and intensify their struggles over time (rather than doing a useless "day of action") in order to win even the tiniest victory over a single employer, because that employer is backed up by so many loans that their own workers striking does not really hurt them and in the epoch of monopolies there's generally not another capitalist who benefits from a long strike and steals someone's market share, rather capitalists usually unite to help their brethren under fire and crush the example of workers' struggles. So if an isolated action can't hurt an employer, how much less can it hurt a capitalist state?

And lastly, as has already been said, what exactly is the efficacy of boycotts and don't they generally hurt the workers in those countries?

-soyons tout


*please be able to separate what I said in this post from what is said on a forum that has more specific politics and don't think I sent the link just so I could use someone else's words to start a fight.

[4 Leaf Clover]

Calling for a boycott in Israel is a reactionary line as it would only hurt the working class and give the israeli bourgeoisie more ammunition against left wing movements but would also stir up nationalism among Israelis to a greater extent by trying to portray that Israel is threathened and isolated by everyone .

And if you haven't anything else to say other than some moronic stalinist comment then you shouldn't probably have posted.

Dude are you a revolutionary leftist or a liberal democrat ? who cares what would Israeli bourgouisie respond like ? we indeed , do want them to respond , with full scale war if possible. Working class interest cant be achieved within Bourgouisie society , working class will be only free , when it frees itself from the private property , therefore , from its own property

[Coggeh]

Dude are you a revolutionary leftist or a liberal democrat ? who cares what would Israeli bourgouisie respond like ? we indeed , do want them to respond , with full scale war if possible. Working class interest cant be achieved within Bourgouisie society , working class will be only free , when it frees itself from the private property , therefore , from its own property
With a full scale war on the Palestinian people you mean ? ya cause thats a good thing when they only have 60 year old bottle rockets and small arms to defend themselves.

Or maybe then the EU and the US will suddenly have a change of heart and stop supporting Israel ?:lol:

If their is any hope of smashing the zionist state its by winning over the Israeli working class, no war can be waged without the support of the working class in Israel and actions such as a boycott only push them further into the hands of the bourgeoise.

Don't try and turn this into a marxist version of "who's got the bigger d*ck" failure to understand the material conditions and subscribe to middle class activist tactics rather than marxist ones is what your saying we should do.

[Proletarian Ultra]

Ah, dishonest and misrepresentating quoting. How clever.

Your ignorance of the present day situation in SA is telling, indeed very telling for what future your line might bring a free palestine. I am sorry if we prefer working class struggle, to tailing the self-styled "national librators" of bourgoisie like the Fatah and Hamas leadership. Indeed, if SA of today is the future you want for palestine then thanks for proving our point.

*shakes head* You know it looks like you're saying the end of apartheid was a bad thing, don't you?

I think we can all agree that Mandela-ism failed the working class. And we could have a good long discussion about why that was. But I can guaran-damn-tee you it wasn't for calling for the end of apartheid, nor for using international boycotts as a mechanism to do it.


Ah and who is tailing "Histadrut"? Certainly not the CWI in Israel who are involved in building an indpendent union, but I would pehaps b too much o expect that you might have some basis for your, quit desperate accusations.

I'm perfectly calm, dude. From what I understand, Socialist Struggle in Israel is opposing Histadrut over contract workers at the post office. That's good, but for real?

[Coggeh]

*shakes head* You know it looks like you're saying the end of apartheid was a bad thing, don't you?

I think we can all agree that Mandela-ism failed the working class. And we could have a good long discussion about why that was. But I can guaran-damn-tee you it wasn't for calling for the end of apartheid, nor for using international boycotts as a mechanism to do it.

Boycotts didn't cause a downfall of apartheid you are completely ignoring the real struggle of the working class and youth in SA which was the real reason political apartheid was overthrown. People in the west still bought SA goods, SA still traded with the western countries .

Its the middle class left types like Naomi Klein who ignore reality and propagate ideas like this that undermine the real struggle that took place by the ANC and the organised working class as a whole in South Africa. Also a key difference is the fact that the Black working class (who were a huge majority another difference with Israel) called for a boycott actively as a sign of support for their struggle.

[Proletarian Ultra]

Boycotts didn't cause a downfall of apartheid you are completely ignoring the real struggle of the working class and youth in SA which was the real reason political apartheid was overthrown. People in the west still bought SA goods, SA still traded with the western countries...Also a key difference is the fact that the Black working class (who were a huge majority another difference with Israel) called for a boycott actively as a sign of support for their struggle.

Of course they weren't the sole cause, but they were extremely important - especially in creating the necessary ideological climate both in SA and internationally. And, by the way, the Palestinian General Federation of Trade Unions supports the Oakland action (http://bdsmovement.net/?q=node/716) and BDS generally.


If their is any hope of smashing the zionist state its by winning over the Israeli working class, no war can be waged without the support of the working class in Israel and actions such as a boycott only push them further into the hands of the bourgeoise.


The class-fraction of proletarians on the Israeli side of the apartheid wall is unlikely to be won over as long as their standard of living is held up by Western military subsidies. And really, how much further into the hands of the bourgeoisie can that class-fraction go?

[Starport]

CWI = Collaborate With Israel

[28350]

CWI = Collaborate With Israel

That's some hardcore historical materialist analysis right there.

[4 Leaf Clover]

With a full scale war on the Palestinian people you mean ? ya cause thats a good thing when they only have 60 year old bottle rockets and small arms to defend themselves.

Or maybe then the EU and the US will suddenly have a change of heart and stop supporting Israel ?:lol:

If their is any hope of smashing the zionist state its by winning over the Israeli working class, no war can be waged without the support of the working class in Israel and actions such as a boycott only push them further into the hands of the bourgeoise.

Don't try and turn this into a marxist version of "who's got the bigger d*ck" failure to understand the material conditions and subscribe to middle class activist tactics rather than marxist ones is what your saying we should do.

oh yeah , lets try not to hurt poor israel working class feelings :crying:

[Crux]

So symbolic boycotts, ancient useless weaponry and hoping fo bourgeoise governemnts to condemn Israel is the way towards a socialist palesine? Ever hard of a thing called the working class? I mean each to his own, but I happen to believe that only the working class can liberate palestine, but let's keep our fingers crossed for an international boycott by western capitalist governments.

[Starport]

That's some hardcore historical materialist analysis right there.

No mate, a crude crack at a deserving target.

here's another CWI = Collaborates With Imperialism

[Rusty Shackleford]

So symbolic boycotts, ancient useless weaponry and hoping fo bourgeoise governemnts to condemn Israel is the way towards a socialist palesine? Ever hard of a thing called the working class? I mean each to his own, but I happen to believe that only the working class can liberate palestine, but let's keep our fingers crossed for an international boycott by western capitalist governments.
and international boycot isnt going to bring about socialism in palestine. the only thing it may do is force israel to fuck off. capitalism will still exist there. its not some final solution. but and independent capitalist palestine is by far better than a besieged palestine.

what could possiblyh happen is just the palestinian national bourgeoisie taking power. after that comes the palestinian proletariat taking power. unless the proletariat is able to sidestep all of that which would be nice.


also, bourgeois governments are always at eachothers throats. if no, then nations would cease to be a divider, but we clearly see today that nations an borders still divide many of us. remember russia in georgia? or how about russia and the us over them missiles in poland? or germany and france over their little debt crisis? Iceland and the uk over bad loans?

[Proletarian Ultra]

So symbolic boycotts, ancient useless weaponry and hoping fo bourgeoise governemnts to condemn Israel is the way towards a socialist palesine?

You say that boycotts will hurt working class people, yet you also say they are symbolic. Let's settle on one for now.


Ever hard of a thing called the working class? I mean each to his own, but I happen to believe that only the working class can liberate palestine,

I do too. That's why actions like this, and similar actions by dockworkers in Sweden etc. are so important. You guys are the internationalists, you should be way ahead of us dummy national liberation types on this. We're also seeing actions by students and education workers forcing divestment from Israeli firms by university endowments. What is it strikes you as wrong about that? As I've already explained, the BDS campaign has been endorsed by Palestinian trade unions.

[the last donut of the night]

How is this in anyway a victory?

It's a victory because it shows that American workers are not apathetic morons that don't give a shit about anything anymore. It shows radicalism is alive and growing in this country. And it shows that for the first time, an Israeli ship has been denied entry in an American port. The ILWU stood strong and said no to apartheid, occupation, and oppression. The workers of America have shown they are in solidarity with the Palestinian working class. It's an amazing event and it's really sad you're not celebrating it as well.


Israel is not an apartheid state, and economic boycotts only hurt the worst-off in Israel aka the working class.

If there ever was a labor aristocracy, the Israeli working-class is it. They receive tremendous privileges through the brutal Zionist occupation. Thus we should focus more on the Palestinian working class than the Israeli one. It's a sad truth, and I'm sorry it goes against your ultra-left beliefs.




You think the ceos and shareholders behind this shipping company will be hurt by this? No, the average stevedore, sailor and working Israeli will be. And in who's interest does Zionism/Imperialism operate in? The ceo and shareholder - it's the highest stage of capitalism. Economic boycotts are utterly moronic, display a misunderstanding of the definite differences in class makeup between South Africa under apartheid and Zionist Israel, and are just a way for middle-class students, academics and professional political activists to feel good about themselves.

Of course. Meanwhile, in reality, and outside of your ultra-left and first world life, the IDF kills pregnant Palestinian women. And you say we don't need a boycott?


and are just a way for middle-class students, academics and professional political activists to feel good about themselves.

Wow. Didn't you read the article? It was the workers that stopped the ship, bucko.

Your arrogance is really fucking annoying.

[Coggeh]

oh yeah , lets try not to hurt poor israel working class feelings :crying:
seriously have you any idea what you just said ? good luck with bottle rockets anyway:thumbup1:

[aty]

Just putting in that the Swedish Dock Workers Union have a total blockade against import and export from/to Israel. 22 of 24 docks is closed for Israel in Sweden, on the first day in Swedens biggest dock in Gothenburg they stopped 10 containers.

The political blockade can only last for 1 week at most acording to Swedish labour-law. So there will probably be more blockades from the dock workers and in the reality Sweden will be in total blockade against Israel just because of the dockworkers. Workers power!

[iskrabronstein]

I don't buy the CWI line - it is flawed substantially in one very important respect. The argument analyzes the possible political outcomes of a general blockade of Israeli ships from foreign ports - but totally ignores not only the lack of a serious organizational capacity for such an action, but also the importance of such demonstrations of solidarity and inter-union cooperation in building a radical movement.

The material conditions for an extended blockade simply do not exist. But what such actions can do is energize labor organizations and radical movements, provide inter-organizational ties, and build a record of principled, militant opposition to imperialism.

To argue that support for workers' protests and blockades against Israeli ships is the same as advocating attacks on the Israeli working class is nonsense. It is like claiming that the rejection of American military bases by foreign populations is an attack on the American working class.

One can quibble about the class composition of the Israeli population, but the fact remains that Israel is a highly militarized, heavily reactionary imperialist state whose working class is complicit in its crimes until such time as they decide to denounce them. This does not mean I support Hamas, or want to see rockets flying into working class windows from the Golan Heights - but it does mean that the occupation must end before there can be any talk of coming together.

And for my Trot comrades - internationalism necessitates anti-imperialism.

[Andropov]

One must acknowledge that the Israeli working class in the majority does not act upon class interests and come to the aid of their Palestinian comrades.
Thus if it can be concluded that they are not acting upon class interests they must be acting upon another form of political perspective and given the context of Israel I would suggest they are acting along Zionist interests.
In this context they are actively par-taking in the subjugation and continuing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
Thus the Israeli working class are not neutral bystanders, they are complicit in the ethnic cleasning of Palestinians and comprise the population of settlements used for land grabbing purpose. These working class Israelis being lured to the settletments due to massive financial insentives.
Also this is not even taking into account the fact that Israels in the vast majority are a European Settler population subsidised by American and European Imperialism.
This molly coddling and protection of a working class fully complicit in the continuing subjugation and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian working class has got to stop by the left who continually attempt to dance to the tune of Bourgeois Liberal hysteria over Israel.

[Barry Lyndon]

This molly coddling and protection of a working class fully complicit in the continuing subjugation and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian working class has got to stop by the left who continually attempt to dance to the tune of Bourgeois Liberal hysteria over Israel.

Yeah, it always astonishes me how many leftists turn into mushy liberals when it comes to the subject of Israel. It's like this residual guilt over the Holocaust makes them incapable of coming down too hard on the Israeli state, no matter how many war crimes they commit. Ironically, this same Israeli state siphoned money off of reparations to Holocaust survivors in order to finance some of its military projects.

[Crux]

Yeah, it always astonishes me how many leftists turn into mushy liberals when it comes to the subject of Israel. It's like this residual guilt over the Holocaust makes them incapable of coming down too hard on the Israeli state, no matter how many war crimes they commit. Ironically, this same Israeli state siphoned money off of reparations to Holocaust survivors in order to finance some of its military projects.Maybe, however that's pure strawmannery if you're still trying to dispute the CWI line on the matter. I do think that so many leftists seem to suddenly grow a confidence in the UN and EU (and the Arab League I suppose) as soon as Israel/Palestine is brought up.
I am an anti-imperialist, our line is anti-imperialist, clever "wordgames" and baseless accusations does not change that.

[Coggeh]

One must acknowledge that the Israeli working class in the majority does not act upon class interests and come to the aid of their Palestinian comrades.
Thus if it can be concluded that they are not acting upon class interests they must be acting upon another form of political perspective and given the context of Israel I would suggest they are acting along Zionist interests.
And one can also can conclude that the majority of prodestant or nationalist working class in the north aren't acting in their class interests. if the majority of workers were they would have been a revolution by now. It is the job of revolutionary socialists to help raise the class conciousness of workers. you are not examining any of the material conditions of Israeli workers and just using pure chauvinism to justify your position not marxism.


In this context they are actively par-taking in the subjugation and continuing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
Thus the Israeli working class are not neutral bystanders, they are complicit in the ethnic cleasning of Palestinians and comprise the population of settlements used for land grabbing purpose. These working class Israelis being lured to the settletments due to massive financial insentives.
Also this is not even taking into account the fact that Israels in the vast majority are a European Settler population subsidised by American and European Imperialism.
Would it not be the same to say the majority of american working class are complicit in the Iraq and Afghanistan war? why single out the Israeli working class surely if you base your accusations on what you just said it would incorporate far more than just the Israeli and for the matter American working class too.



This molly coddling and protection of a working class fully complicit in the continuing subjugation and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian working class has got to stop by the left who continually attempt to dance to the tune of Bourgeois Liberal hysteria over Israel.You act as if acting in the interests of the Israeli working class and the building of revolutionary movements in Israel is the same as acting in the interests of the Israeli bourgeois and American imperialism. Clearly this shows nothing but an utter misunderstanding of a real marxist approach.

[Coggeh]

and international boycot isnt going to bring about socialism in palestine. the only thing it may do is force israel to fuck off. capitalism will still exist there. its not some final solution. but and independent capitalist palestine is by far better than a besieged palestine.

An independant capitalist palestine will look like a more extreme version of Iran, where Hamas become the new capitalist class. I don't think any leftists not even Ml's would fancy that.



what could possiblyh happen is just the palestinian national bourgeoisie taking power. after that comes the palestinian proletariat taking power. unless the proletariat is able to sidestep all of that which would be nice.
Or we could use the discontent among Israelis and Palestinians against their respective bourgeois leaders to create a unitied front, instead of waiting around for a capitalist Palestine to come about.



also, bourgeois governments are always at eachothers throats. if no, then nations would cease to be a divider, but we clearly see today that nations an borders still divide many of us. remember russia in georgia? or how about russia and the us over them missiles in poland? or germany and france over their little debt crisis? Iceland and the uk over bad loans?
Do you really think honestly think bourgeois governments would call for a boycott? A sympathic govt minister to palestine was asked why don't we call for a boycott he said simply because the EU would never agree and the sad fact is they wouldn't they have too much at stake in Israel and so do the US.

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Perhaps the usual CWI social-democrats can tell us exactly how this action hurt Israeli workers. It's just something that was suggested by one of them in this thread, and it was taken as gospel from there on.

The reason I have my doubts is that they've proven themselves a bunch of liars already. There is something distinctly Orwellian about denouncing "anti-working class" American workers who decide to voice their solidarity with Palestinian workers in this way, while beating yourself on the chest for "a presence within the working class". As if no-one else does. As if the American trade unionists are a bunch of Hamas fans who want to hurt Israeli workers. As if the response from the Palestinian workers means nothing.

Anyway, I'd just like to tell the CWI to keep up the good work, denouncing working-class action and all that.

Edit @ Barry: the CWI are not ultra-left, of course. They are opportunist accessories of social-democracy and smug pricks.

You are just being needlessly sectarian at this point. How an organization with members in 40+ countries could have come together and already have a unified position in regards to this situation is delusional. As a member of the CWI, I can say that I support this action. Running parallel to this, we've also been supportive of the movement to boycott Arizona, so obviously that is just some bullshit to say CWI don't support this type of action.

[Devrim]

Yeah, it always astonishes me how many leftists turn into mushy liberals when it comes to the subject of Israel. It's like this residual guilt over the Holocaust makes them incapable of coming down too hard on the Israeli state, no matter how many war crimes they commit. Ironically, this same Israeli state siphoned money off of reparations to Holocaust survivors in order to finance some of its military projects.

I think that this shows a very American point of view. Of course, in our country liberals, and every other political faction, from fascism to leftism support Palestinian nationalism, but even in Europe, people with what are commonly called 'liberal' views, criticise Israel, and support Palestine.

Devrim

[Devrim]

An independant capitalist palestine will look like a more extreme version of Iran, where Hamas become the new capitalist class. I don't think any leftists not even Ml's would fancy that.

I think that part of the problem here is that people talk about an 'independent capitalist Palestine' as if it was a real possibility. Outside of a major change in the international imperialist balance of power it is not. All that is possible is some kind of 'bantustan' similar to what exists at the moment. Palestine and Israel do not exist in a vacuum.

Devrim

[bloodbeard]

I'm not sure if it will allow me to post links since I'm still a newbie but here's some more bad news for the Illegal Occupier.

"The largest public trade union in England joins the worldwide movement to boycott Israel.It also voted to cut ties with Histadrud, the Zionist, racist trade union federation of apartheid Israel.The workers also demanded that England expels the Israeli ambassador!Huge victory for workers solidarity and internationalism and yet one more slap on the face against racist, imperialist Israel."

http://windowintopalestine.blogspot.com/2010/06/british-largest-public-trade-union.html?utm_source=feedburner

[bloodbeard]

An independant capitalist palestine will look like a more extreme version of Iran, where Hamas become the new capitalist class. I don't think any leftists not even Ml's would fancy that.

I highly doubt that.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves shall we? Rather than imagining how horrifying and oh-so-ISLAMIC an independent palestine might look like, you might want to think about the sufferings of palestinian civilians who cannot afford to keep waiting around for many more decades to have their freedom and their homes back. They need us, the international community, to finally pay attention, to expose and fight back the terrorism Israel keeps on committing.



Or we could use the discontent among Israelis and Palestinians against their respective bourgeois leaders to create a unitied front, instead of waiting around for a capitalist Palestine to come about. What discontent of israeli workers? I cannot believe that four pages later you still do not get it. Honestly, it seems to me you are the one who is into "waiting around", apparently for some pie in the sky moment of "workers solidarity" in the occupied palestine before you want any changes to happen at all, either that or you are waiting around for israel to take over ALL of palestine... I sure hope that's not the case.



Do you really think honestly think bourgeois governments would call for a boycott? A sympathic govt minister to palestine was asked why don't we call for a boycott he said simply because the EU would never agree and the sad fact is they wouldn't they have too much at stake in Israel and so do the US.Boycotting must start from the bottom up, it DOES NOT trickle down from the government and economist fat cats. Change will never happen if we wait around for the western powers to do something about it first, WE must mobilize, organize and strategize ourselves. We have on our hands a real opportunity to crush an imperialistic scum of a government, the Enemy if you will, and it'll be a shame to see some let this opportunity go.

[Rusty Shackleford]

An independant capitalist palestine will look like a more extreme version of Iran, where Hamas become the new capitalist class. I don't think any leftists not even Ml's would fancy that.
Different circumstances lead to different outcomes coggeh. Palestine is occupied, Iran was under a pupper regime. who knows, maybe palestine could come out like Albania in '44. no one knows



Or we could use the discontent among Israelis and Palestinians against their respective bourgeois leaders to create a unitied front, instead of waiting around for a capitalist Palestine to come about.
show me the discontend amongst the israelis. i dare you. like i said before, the israeli working class' head is in the sand. it is reactionary, colonial, and racist. 2 major reasons why these two working classes currently cannot be united.

A: The Israeli working class and state in general is inflated by the US. kind of like west berlin after WWII.

B: The other reason why israel and its working class is so comfortable is at the near total expense of the palestinian people. for them, to unite with the palestinians would mean a loss in privelige and power. they are NOT politically developed. their working class is more like the italian or german working class(not as a whole but in sentiment amongst a majority) in the 1930s.


also, im hoping for an independent palestine, be it bourgeois or proletarian. the first goal is sovereignty of an oppressed nationality. you cant just create a united front between two so diametrically opposed groups overnight. Israel is an all or nothing entity which makes the palestinian struggle, de facto, an all or nothing struggle.


Do you really think honestly think bourgeois governments would call for a boycott? A sympathic govt minister to palestine was asked why don't we call for a boycott he said simply because the EU would never agree and the sad fact is they wouldn't they have too much at stake in Israel and so do the US.

there are independent and comprador bourgeois governments. yes, they are all bourgeois, but their relation to the stronger and imperialist bourgeoisie is not all the same.

Iran and Sudan are two examples of independent bourgeois states. the do much more than boycott israel. yes, its not a majority but it is proof that bourgeois governments do indeed stand against israel. the bourgeoisie is not just a western thing.

[Proletarian Ultra]

I think that part of the problem here is that people talk about an 'independent capitalist Palestine' as if it was a real possibility. Outside of a major change in the international imperialist balance of power it is not. All that is possible is some kind of 'bantustan' similar to what exists at the moment. Palestine and Israel do not exist in a vacuum.

Devrim is right. There is only room for one sovereign state in that territory. What we call the "two state solution" is really "one state, one protectorate".

[Saorsa]

'independent capitalist Palestine'

No genuine communist is arguing for that. That's a strawman created by social-democratic, economistic groups like the CWI and ultra-leftist groups like the ICC to justify why they don't support the Palestinian resistance.

We argue for one democratic, secular and socialist Palestine from the river Jordan to the sea, ideally coming into existence as part of a worldwide socialist revolution.

[Barry Lyndon]

No genuine communist is arguing for that. That's a strawman created by social-democratic, economistic groups like the CWI and ultra-leftist groups like the ICC to justify why they don't support the Palestinian resistance.

This fits into the CWI's and similar org's hatred of Third World resistance movements in general, their abstract denunciations of 'nationalism' being a convenient cover for their own First Worldist chauvinism.

[Rusty Shackleford]

No genuine communist is arguing for that. That's a strawman created by social-democratic, economistic groups like the CWI and ultra-leftist groups like the ICC to justify why they don't support the Palestinian resistance.

We argue for one democratic, secular and socialist Palestine from the river Jordan to the sea, ideally coming into existence as part of a worldwide socialist revolution.

ideally no, i dont want palestine to be capitalist. but if it ends up that way, the most important part is that it is independent. and really, if it were capitalist it would probably immediately be subjected to IMF regulations and stuff.

so, as soon as it gains sovreignty it loses it to imperialists. then the proletarian struggle can carry on.

but as you said alastair, i agree. that is the real goal.


and that is also the basis for a nice chant.

"From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!"

[Crux]

No genuine communist is arguing for that. That's a strawman created by social-democratic, economistic groups like the CWI and ultra-leftist groups like the ICC to justify why they don't support the Palestinian resistance.

We argue for one democratic, secular and socialist Palestine from the river Jordan to the sea, ideally coming into existence as part of a worldwide socialist revolution.
I'll have you know that we support armed resistance against the occupation. Stop making shoddy arguments just because we're not on the boycott train. Just taking my own section as an example we've taken very active part in the protests after the massacre on Ship to Gaza.

The keyword here being "ideally", whereas we struggle on the ground in Israel, something some people have the audicity to try and use against us through blatant distortions. So far no one has been able to level any serious critique against us for this, in my experience it the counter-arguments rarely gets further than name-calling. I recall a hilarious article in the Comunist Party's (form Comunist Party Marxist-Leninist (revolutionaries)) paper making the claim we sent money to "Israel" (typically making no distinction between the CWI-section and the Israeli state). If you would stop it with the name-calling for a second it might actually be possible to hold a debate on the issue.

[Andropov]

And one can also can conclude that the majority of prodestant or nationalist working class in the north aren't acting in their class interests.
I dont see what Ireland has got to do with this.
Anyway we must constructively analyse what are the dominant political perspectives in Ireland.
Obviously the dominant political perspectives among the respective working class's across the border are Nationalism and Unionism.
So are either side of the political divide and their respective ideologys indeed constructive and progressive to their class interests?
I would argue in the context of Imperialism in Ireland the Nationalism of the oppressed is indeed progressive to their class interests.
But like I said this has got nothing to do with Ireland so would rather if it didnt diverge off on a tangent irrelevant to the topic at hand.

if the majority of workers were they would have been a revolution by now.
Im not claiming the majority of workers in the Northern Statelet were ever working in their class interest.

It is the job of revolutionary socialists to help raise the class conciousness of workers.
Indeed it is but that does not mean we must accuratley analyse the material conditions of a given context.
On this issue you and others are far too comfortable molly coddling the Israeli working class from its culpability in the active subjugation and ethnic cleasing of the working class.
The CWI will still be throwing out meaningless sloganeering when the Israelis finally finish the job they started in the 1930's.

you are not examining any of the material conditions of Israeli workers and just using pure chauvinism to justify your position not marxism.
Please highligh my Chauvanism?

Would it not be the same to say the majority of american working class are complicit in the Iraq and Afghanistan war? why single out the Israeli working class surely if you base your accusations on what you just said it would incorporate far more than just the Israeli and for the matter American working class too.
You see what we see here is selective quoting of my post.
You selectively removed the uncomfortable truth for the CWI that the Israeli working class actively subjugate and par-take in the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
Israeli towns are built on the rubble of Palestinian villages, they are built on the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian working class by a European Settler population.
Now one might argue this is all in the past, move on etc. Well its not, Israel continues to construct Settlements on ethnically cleansed lands and continues its campaign of starvation and brutality of the Gaza population in order to make life untenable.
Not to mention the Israeli working class also serve in the IDF at some stage or another.
For these few reasons alone that is why your given example of Afghanistan and Iraq fails.

You act as if acting in the interests of the Israeli working class and the building of revolutionary movements in Israel is the same as acting in the interests of the Israeli bourgeois and American imperialism.
When the last Palestinian turns off the lights on the way out of their country the CWI will still be churning out these meaningless slogans.
In the immediate term immediate sanctions and direct action must be taken to halt the systematic ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
All else is empty posturing because of a lack of appetite by the CWI to tackle the uncomfortable truth that the Israeli working class actively par-take and profit from the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

Clearly this shows nothing but an utter misunderstanding of a real marxist approach.
Do expand on this.

[Coggeh]

Im not claiming the majority of workers in the Northern Statelet were ever working in their class interest.
No you were trying to justify ruling out the Israeli working class as a possible miliant force by saying they don't act in their class interests. Same as most working class people obviously.



Indeed it is but that does not mean we must accuratley analyse the material conditions of a given context.
On this issue you and others are far too comfortable molly coddling the Israeli working class from its culpability in the active subjugation and ethnic cleasing of the working class.
The CWI will still be throwing out meaningless sloganeering when the Israelis finally finish the job they started in the 1930's.The point here is that you are not examining the material conditions at all. Why do you think it is that most Israelis favour certain actions of the government against palestine? is it that their just horrible people or is it that the conditions they face have led to the vastness of reactionary positions and ideas of the Israeli working class. Material conditions are what judge the position of anyone on any given topic with respect to outside ideas and analysis also. It is our job as socialists to put forward these ideas that counter act this reactionary sprouting of ideas in Israel to build a movement which shows their can be no solution to the conflict in Palestine and Israel until capitalism has been completely destroyed. Like dervim has already and quite rightly pointed out a key hole in the position of many on this board is that a capitalist Palestine can never exist other than the half assed un-indepentant statlets that exist now unless their was a huge shift in the balance of Imperialism that is which isn't going to happen anytime soon.



Please highlight my Chauvanism?
Chauvinism, , in its original and primary meaning, is an exaggerated, bellicose patriotism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism) and a blind belief in national superiority and glory.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauvinism#cite_note-oed-0) By extension it has come to include an extreme and unreasoning partisanship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partisan_%28political%29) on behalf of any group to which one belongs, especially when the partisanship includes malice and hatred towards a rival group

You think its a coincedence that unionists in the north have israeli flags flying and nationalist have palestinian ones?



You see what we see here is selective quoting of my post.
You selectively removed the uncomfortable truth for the CWI that the Israeli working class actively subjugate and par-take in the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
Israeli towns are built on the rubble of Palestinian villages, they are built on the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian working class by a European Settler population.
Now one might argue this is all in the past, move on etc. Well its not, Israel continues to construct Settlements on ethnically cleansed lands and continues its campaign of starvation and brutality of the Gaza population in order to make life untenable.And you think bottle rockets and boycotts by "actvists" is going to have any affect whatsoever on this ? If anything its going to drive Israeli workers to an even more reactionary state of mind with a higher support for moves such as this, their is huge discontent in Israel against the government with the extreme cuts, unemployment and huge military spending the govt survive only because the working class there fear an independant Palestine so much with the building of a revolutionary movement with trade unions there can be a rapidation of the discontent and a drive towards a real solution.


Not to mention the Israeli working class also serve in the IDF at some stage or another.There is conscription in Israel. And also every soldier of most armies serve imperialism, In america most sign up to get a college fund or pay off debts etc in Israel its for the same reason for the most part. Or are you going to the position now that all soldiers are reactionary armed thugs of the state and cannot possibly play any role in a revolutionary movement?



When the last Palestinian turns off the lights on the way out of their country the CWI will still be churning out these meaningless slogans.
In the immediate term immediate sanctions and direct action must be taken to halt the systematic ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
All else is empty posturing because of a lack of appetite by the CWI to tackle the uncomfortable truth that the Israeli working class actively par-take and profit from the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
The cwi par-take and profit from the ethic cleansing of palestinians ? and how exactly do we do that?. I could easily just start shouting meaningless sectarian crap saying the Irsp par-take and profit from the dissapearing of drug dealers but im not that stupid or open to believing all the sectarian shit floating around.

And no its not us with the lack of appetite its stalinist orgs that can't take the hard but correct marxist positions on things like Palestine and Israel but take the easily defended ones which involve no real analysis or amount to no solution. What is your solution to this conflict ? establish an independant palestine ... somehow... and get the reactionary Israeli working class to suddenly come around ... somehow...

Or is it that we'll wait for boycotts which still don't solve anything but piss off Israel ?


Do expand on this.Answered this earlier in my post .

And again you have provided no alternative solution, no detailed analysis and not anything worth reading but sectarian shit against the cwi and petit arguments that look like you have taken 10seconds of looking at the situation and just pulled a position out of head.

[Coggeh]

No genuine communist is arguing for that. That's a strawman created by social-democratic, economistic groups like the CWI and ultra-leftist groups like the ICC to justify why they don't support the Palestinian resistance.

We argue for one democratic, secular and socialist Palestine from the river Jordan to the sea, ideally coming into existence as part of a worldwide socialist revolution.
And your saying were the ones that want the Palestinians to be waiting around while the attacks continue.... :rolleyes:

Ever actually contemplate building an actual socialist movement in Israel and Palestine ? no .. it'll just topple over by itself when the worldwide revolution comes .. should be any day now.

And your constant claim about us not supporting palestinian resistance is getting old I've said about 20 times so far we do support the right to resist but on the other hand launching bottle rockets into civilian towns isn't really what we were going for. And if you think thats defensivable then get on the bandwagon with all the other "leftists" who support individual terrorism.

[Devrim]

'independent capitalist Palestine' No genuine communist is arguing for that. That's a strawman created by social-democratic, economistic groups like the CWI and ultra-leftist groups like the ICC to justify why they don't support the Palestinian resistance.

I don't think that it is a 'strawman' created by us. We don't think that an 'independent capitalist Palestine' is even possible.

I would say that, outside of world revolution, there are four possibilities, in no particular order;

1) The situation continues much as it is.
2) The situation continues much as it is with some new 'Bantustan' deal.
3) Israel manages to expel the Palestinians to Jordan.
4) A real change in the international imperialist balance of power, which to make any change on the ground would probably mean general war in the Middle East.

The idea that HAMAS or the PLO will overthrow the Israel state is not amongst them. I really don't see it as a possibility.


We argue for one democratic, secular and socialist Palestine from the river Jordan to the sea, ideally coming into existence as part of a worldwide socialist revolution.

This is equally as abstract.


I'll have you know that we support armed resistance against the occupation. Stop making shoddy arguments just because we're not on the boycott train. Just taking my own section as an example we've taken very active part in the protests after the massacre on Ship to Gaza.

We don't support armed nationalism in any way. Taking our own section as an example we didn't take any part in the recent flotilla protests, which were organised by a collaboration of right-wing trade unions, Islamicists, and fascists, and as many militant workers I spoke to, all of whom ı presume were sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, were used in this country to draw attention away from the class struggle, and promote national unity.

Devrim

[Andropov]

No you were trying to justify ruling out the Israeli working class as a possible miliant force by saying they don't act in their class interests. Same as most working class people obviously.
No I was explaining what the dominant political perspective among the Israeli working class is...

One must acknowledge that the Israeli working class in the majority does not act upon class interests and come to the aid of their Palestinian comrades.
Thus if it can be concluded that they are not acting upon class interests they must be acting upon another form of political perspective and given the context of Israel I would suggest they are acting along Zionist interests.

The point here is that you are not examining the material conditions at all. Why do you think it is that most Israelis favour certain actions of the government against palestine? is it that their just horrible people or is it that the conditions they face have led to the vastness of reactionary positions and ideas of the Israeli working class.
Why do they side with the Israeli Bourgeois?
Why thats obvious of course because the Israeli working class's interests are tied to their Bourgeois because they par-take and profit from the ethnic cleansing of the palestinians as a settler population.

Material conditions are what judge the position of anyone on any given topic with respect to outside ideas and analysis also.
All true.

It is our job as socialists to put forward these ideas that counter act this reactionary sprouting of ideas in Israel to build a movement which shows their can be no solution to the conflict in Palestine and Israel until capitalism has been completely destroyed.
So with the continuing ethnic cleansing and brutalisation of the palestinians we must wait until socialists have built a working class movement in Israel. Do realise how hollow that is to Palestinians. Merely a cop out from taking a correct marxist line oin a liberal hot potato that the CWI seem unwilling or unable to grasp.

Like dervim has already and quite rightly pointed out a key hole in the position of many on this board is that a capitalist Palestine can never exist other than the half assed un-indepentant statlets that exist now unless their was a huge shift in the balance of Imperialism that is which isn't going to happen anytime soon.
Indeed but that does not mean we are powerless to change the balance of Imperialism. Indeed it gives us socialists a much stronger hand.

Chauvinism, , in its original and primary meaning, is an exaggerated, bellicose patriotism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism) and a blind belief in national superiority and glory.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauvinism#cite_note-oed-0) By extension it has come to include an extreme and unreasoning partisanship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partisan_%28political%29) on behalf of any group to which one belongs, especially when the partisanship includes malice and hatred towards a rival group
Ehh I asked for examples of my Chauvanism, not a definition of Chauvanism.
So examples of Chauvanism please?

You think its a coincedence that unionists in the north have israeli flags flying and nationalist have palestinian ones?
Indeed I dont.
It highlights the Nationalism of the oppressed can recognise other peoples who are victims of oppression and how those working class whose interests are tied to reactionary ideologys. Need I mention The Afrikaneers ties to Israel and Loyalist death squads?

And you think bottle rockets and boycotts by "actvists" is going to have any affect whatsoever on this ?
Of course, some might be minimal and some might be very progressive.

If anything its going to drive Israeli workers to an even more reactionary state of mind with a higher support for moves such as this,
Here is one of my major disagreements with CWI analysis.
The failure to differenciate between a reaction to oppression and the cause of said oppression.
The reasons as I stated earlier for Israeli working class prevelent reactionary sentiment is because the material position they hold in Israel as a force of ethnic cleansing.

their is huge discontent in Israel against the government with the extreme cuts, unemployment and huge military spending the govt survive only because the working class there fear an independant Palestine so much with the building of a revolutionary movement with trade unions there can be a rapidation of the discontent and a drive towards a real solution.
And the CWI falls back onto economism in the hope that their gas and water socialism will somehow reverse the reactionary position a settler population holds in their continuing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

There is conscription in Israel.
Point being?

And also every soldier of most armies serve imperialism,
Indeed.

In america most sign up to get a college fund or pay off debts etc in Israel its for the same reason for the most part. Or are you going to the position now that all soldiers are reactionary armed thugs of the state and cannot possibly play any role in a revolutionary movement?
No thats not my analysis whats so ever.
I maintain that while acting in Imperialism as its storm troopers they are a reactionary force until they side with the working class.

The cwi par-take and profit from the ethic cleansing of palestinians ? and how exactly do we do that?. I could easily just start shouting meaningless sectarian crap saying the Irsp par-take and profit from the dissapearing of drug dealers but im not that stupid or open to believing all the sectarian shit floating around.
Ohh riiiight sooo??
Im not sure exactly where you got from my post that the CWI profit from the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
Ill put it down to you misreading or misinterpreting my post.

And no its not us with the lack of appetite its stalinist orgs that can't take the hard but correct marxist positions on things like Palestine and Israel but take the easily defended ones which involve no real analysis or amount to no solution.
Why do some Trots constantly need to refer to 'Stalinist' organisations, this cult of the leader grows tiresome.
I feel my position is correct but im open to be proven wrong.
As for the CWI's im certain it is wrong, like I said empty posturing about 'educating' the Israeli working class and hollow sloganeering about 'building a working class alternative' in Israel while in the immediate term Palestinians are being ethnically cleansed from their homes while the CWI fudges action with empty rehtorric.

What is your solution to this conflict ? establish an independant palestine ... somehow... and get the reactionary Israeli working class to suddenly come around ... somehow...
My immediate solution is economic sanctions to make their settler state economically unviable. This would be achieved through working class pressure in western countrys to reorganise the imperial structure. This can be done through boycotts and sustained economic pressure. The key is over turning the economic bank rolling the USA and EU provides the settler state. We can learn alot from the Zionist lobbys efficiency and effectivity.

Or is it that we'll wait for boycotts which still don't solve anything but piss off Israel ?
Making the settler state economically unviable is an effective strategy.

Answered this earlier in my post .
Could you copy and paste it for me please.

And again you have provided no alternative solution,
Ehh yes I have.

no detailed analysis
...and this.

and not anything worth reading but sectarian shit against the cwi
I purposefully avoided sectarian shit.
In fact it was you who has made the first swipe with regaurds meaningless sectarian slurs.
I can copy and apste it for you if you want.

and petit arguments that look like you have taken 10seconds of looking at the situation and just pulled a position out of head.
My arguements are small now?
And it looks like you have copied and pasted your arguements from the CWI handbook on how to effectively avoid upsetting bourgeois liberal hysteria on Israel.

[Coggeh]

No I was explaining what the dominant political perspective among the Israeli working class is...
Ya I think its obvious that the Israeli working class majority wise hold a reactionary position but you still made the point that because of that they are incapable of being a militant force in the struggle against capitalism.



Why do they side with the Israeli Bourgeois?
Why thats obvious of course because the Israeli working class's interests are tied to their Bourgeois because they par-take and profit from the ethnic cleansing of the palestinians as a settler population.

I think your question answers itself but your missing the key point. while it is beneficial in certain ways for them to profit from the destruction of Palestine in many ways it isn't Israel has suffered economically by placing so much spending in military that they are now forced to hand down savage budget cuts to the Israeli working class who will envitably force a backlash against the government such as the strikes we have seen already in Israel and instead of waiting at the sidelines for the world revolution or lobbying imperialist nations to stop trading with Israel we can on the ground build real movement that actually brings something to the table to the working class and pose a real alternative.




So with the continuing ethnic cleansing and brutalisation of the palestinians we must wait until socialists have built a working class movement in Israel. Do realise how hollow that is to Palestinians. Merely a cop out from taking a correct marxist line oin a liberal hot potato that the CWI seem unwilling or unable to grasp.
Ltes have a comparsion about your position and mine. You want the Palestinians to wait around for a world revolution or for imperialist nations to stop trading with Israel. I want to build a movement in Israel which can actively force israel to stop making movements into Gaza and the West bank. Which is it that you will think will take longer? honestly.



Indeed but that does not mean we are powerless to change the balance of Imperialism. Indeed it gives us socialists a much stronger hand.
In the frame of mind you thinking yes socialists would be powerless to change the balance of imperialsm, the only we can is by destroying imperialism.



Ehh I asked for examples of my Chauvanism, not a definition of Chauvanism.
So examples of Chauvanism please?
Your position on Palestine is chauvanistic, your complete faith in the Palestinian resistance as a means for socialist change the irradication of Israel etc is built on your own nationalism. Now that sounds way harsher than its meant to be I recognise that nationalism in Palestine and in the north is far more progressive than unionism/zionism obviously but it stems from the same false alliance that comes about not from marxism but from chauvanism.



Indeed I dont.
It highlights the Nationalism of the oppressed can recognise other peoples who are victims of oppression and how those working class whose interests are tied to reactionary ideologys. Need I mention The Afrikaneers ties to Israel and Loyalist death squads?Of course thats true, but were marxists we analysis why this is the case for the working class in those countries we don't side on a working class divide because the other working class see it in their interests to suscribe to reactionary elements of their respective bourgeoise because the fact of the matter is for palestinians under capitalism it is in their interests to side with hamas and for Israel it is with them to side with a zionist occupation but with a revolutionary workers movement we can change that .

Marxists should not be susceptible to the tactics of the bourgeoisie in divide and rule because by joining one side of the this we cut out completely the other half or in this case the majority of working class people.



Of course, some might be minimal and some might be very progressive.
No, they don't. rockets aren't going to do anything but give Israel another excuse to attack, and if think this is going to cause huge uproar by the west it won't and all your doing by supporting this is scapgoating the Palestinians into more death and despair to hope for some sort of change.



Here is one of my major disagreements with CWI analysis.
The failure to differenciate between a reaction to oppression and the cause of said oppression.
The reasons as I stated earlier for Israeli working class prevelent reactionary sentiment is because the material position they hold in Israel as a force of ethnic cleansing.
We do differenciate only a complete tool would fail to recognise the progressivness of a palestinian supporter and the reactionariness of a Israeli one.

I've already dealt with the material position argument of Israeli working class about 3 paragraphs up and the first or second paragraph of this post.



And the CWI falls back onto economism in the hope that their gas and water socialism will somehow reverse the reactionary position a settler population holds in their continuing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
And you fall back on supporting rockets and lobbying imperialism for sympathy.




No thats not my analysis whats so ever.
I maintain that while acting in Imperialism as its storm troopers they are a reactionary force until they side with the working class.
But would you actively go out and try and win over working class people in the army like the bolsheviks done or would sit back and see if they'll come to us ?



Ohh riiiight sooo??
Im not sure exactly where you got from my post that the CWI profit from the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
Ill put it down to you misreading or misinterpreting my post.
I did misread it actually, sorry about that :(



Why do some Trots constantly need to refer to 'Stalinist' organisations, this cult of the leader grows tiresome.
I feel my position is correct but im open to be proven wrong.
As for the CWI's im certain it is wrong, like I said empty posturing about 'educating' the Israeli working class and hollow sloganeering about 'building a working class alternative' in Israel while in the immediate term Palestinians are being ethnically cleansed from their homes while the CWI fudges action with empty rehtorric.No you see the thing is the CWI already have members on the ground in israel and a built organisation called Socialist Struggle. Do the IRSP have some lobby group already made in Brussels and Washington ? lol

So it is not empty sloganeering clearly.



My immediate solution is economic sanctions to make their settler state economically unviable. This would be achieved through working class pressure in western countrys to reorganise the imperial structure. This can be done through boycotts and sustained economic pressure. The key is over turning the economic bank rolling the USA and EU provides the settler state. We can learn alot from the Zionist lobbys efficiency and effectivity.
Econonmic sanctions from who ? The us ? you must be bloody joking. You see "leftists" who have so much faith in boycotts usually have this position stem from what happened in South Africa but the boycott wasn't that effective SA still traded fine with the west, and most working class people in Ireland and elsewhere still bought their goods the overthrow of apartied had nothing to do with a boycott it was all to do with a actions of an organised youth and working class.



Making the settler state economically unviable is an effective strategy.
Yes but the you way of doing that is fair petit liberal bleeding heart stuff.

You responded to it already, it was the point about you not examining material conditions.

Could you copy and paste it for me please.



Ehh yes I have.
No and you still haven't your solution not only is it not near a marxist one but its not really a solution at all.



I purposefully avoided sectarian shit.
In fact it was you who has made the first swipe with regaurds meaningless sectarian slurs.
I can copy and apste it for you if you want.
No throughout all your posts , they have been riddled with oh cwi gas and water ..etc etc



My arguements are small now?
And it looks like you have copied and pasted your arguements from the CWI handbook on how to effectively avoid upsetting bourgeois liberal hysteria on Israel.
We it just so happens that I am a cwi member so if i had a completely different position to the cwi it should be a cause for concern really. A cwi member following the cwi line isn't that much of a deal.

Yeah yeah good luck with the bleeding heart story to imperialists.

[4 Leaf Clover]

dont support anti-israel protests. Be a real marxist !

[Barry Lyndon]

dont support anti-israel protests. Be a real marxist !

Yeah! Be like the anti-Germans, wave the Israeli flag and sing Hatvika!!!!

[gorillafuck]

We don't support armed nationalism in any way. Taking our own section as an example we didn't take any part in the recent flotilla protests, which were organised by a collaboration of right-wing trade unions, Islamicists, and fascists, and as many militant workers I spoke to, all of whom ı presume were sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, were used in this country to draw attention away from the class struggle, and promote national unity.
I'm not fully sure what you mean by "armed nationalism". I can see why one would not support Hamas (they're reactionary theocrats who want to set up a capitalist state), but when the IDF is murdering people in Palestine, does the ICC consider shooting back to be armed nationalism, and oppose it?

[Red Saxon]

what is the difference between apartheid south africa and israel-apart from both being racist - heavily militarised entities?I believe the difference is that Israel uses apartheid for purely segregational purposes (for the sake of security), while South Africa used apartheid for purely racist purposes.

I don't think the average Israeli is racist, I just believe that they've become so afraid of café bombings and the like that it's hard to be friendly to Arabs. Hell, I'd be reluctant too if I had my family members killed in an explosion or my kibbutz shot at.

Try to look at it from the Israeli perspective.

[Spanishleft]

Palestine needs to be free! We should not forget that Israel's occupation is not the only obstacle to a free palestine! Class oppression and especially oppression of women in Palestine must not be tolerated! I see too many comrades ignoring the struggle of Palestinian women, as well as the inherent flaws of Hamas theocracy

[Rusty Shackleford]

I believe the difference is that Israel uses apartheid for purely segregational purposes (for the sake of security), while South Africa used apartheid for purely racist purposes.

I don't think the average Israeli is racist, I just believe that they've become so afraid of café bombings and the like that it's hard to be friendly to Arabs. Hell, I'd be reluctant too if I had my family members killed in an explosion or my kibbutz shot at.

Try to look at it from the Israeli perspective.

so then why did the hagganah roll barrel bombs down alleyways in palestinian neighborhoods when israel was founded? why were villages eradicated? why are homes destroyed for the sake of security.

the israeli perspective denies these claims and then asserts that they are under attack by anti-semites. (Arabs are a semetic people as well)
it is not just a racist state, what makes it racist is that it is a colony. seeking to expand into a native territory purifying along the way.

[Spanishleft]

so then why did the hagganah roll barrel bombs down alleyways in palestinian neighborhoods when israel was founded?
Don't you think its a little cheap to say all israeli people are racists because of what hagganah did?

[freepalestine]

Don't you think its a little cheap to say all israeli people are racists because of what hagganah did?
NO it's not "cheap".and how the fk would you know!
i guess you would say that not all afrikaaners were racist.both rsa and isreal where created as racist states.

[Red Saxon]

both rsa and isreal where created as racist states.At least Israel allows Arab political parties in the Knesset, whereas the RSA did not.

And it's very laudable to suggest that all Israelis are racist because of what the Haganah and the Irgun did during the war for independence. The Irgun did a lot of terrorist-like activities (such as the bombing of the King David hotel) and was even labeled by the Israeli government in 1948 as a terrorist organization because the Irgun wanted to force all the Arabs of out Israel. These people were the actual crazy ones, demanding to capture all of the land alloted to them in the Torah.

The funny thing is that the Irgun eventually evolved into the Herut party, which in itself was the predecessor to the Likud. (the ruling party of Israel)

Furthermore, the Palestinians refused to call themselves Palestinians because they thought of it as a Western construct. Palestine had only ever existed as a general name for the area, like the Greeks using the term Europa to describe anything north of them, going back to when the Romans sacked Jerusalem and kicked the Jews out of the area.

[freepalestine]

At least Israel allows Arab political parties in the Knesset, whereas the RSA did not.

And it's very laudable to suggest that all Israelis are racist because of what the Haganah and the Irgun did during the war for independence. The Irgun did a lot of terrorist-like activities (such as the bombing of the King David hotel) and was even labeled by the Israeli government in 1948 as a terrorist organization because the Irgun wanted to force all the Arabs of out Israel. These people were the actual crazy ones, demanding to capture all of the land alloted to them in the Torah.

The funny thing is that the Irgun eventually evolved into the Herut party, which in itself was the predecessor to the Likud. (the ruling party of Israel)

Furthermore, the Palestinians refused to call themselves Palestinians because they thought of it as a Western construct. Palestine had only ever existed as a general name for the area, like the Greeks using the term Europa to describe anything north of them, going back to when the Romans sacked Jerusalem and kicked the Jews out of the area.i see nonsense like that spouted all the time by zionists,elsewhere on the internet.how wrong and mistaken you are.

[Red Saxon]

i see nonsense like that spouted all the time by zionists,elsewhere on the internet.how wrong and mistaken you are.Mind proposing a rebuttal to any point that I made instead of just sticking to your "FUCK ISRAEL AND VIVA PALESTINE" attitude?

It's idiotic at best and nationalistic at worst.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Not all israelis are racist. what i am suggesting is that the israeli state and government is itself a racist entity. so what if there is an arab party represented. the PFP(Peace and Freedom Party runs socialist candidates, the recent primary had SP-USA, PSL, and an independent) here in california is on the ballot but thats it.. were just on the ballot.

there are actually a few communists on here that are in fact israeli.

the hagganahs actions are the hagannas actions. but their was instrumental in the expansion of the israel. that and the inaction of the UN, and the incorrect stance of the soviet union.

when 80% of israelis support the IDFs response to the flotilla on May 31st, i think its telling about the majority of the population there. and obviously its impossible for there to be a make up of 80% bourgeoisie so that also means that a good sized portion the working class is dismally unconscious.

[Devrim]

I'm not fully sure what you mean by "armed nationalism". I can see why one would not support Hamas (they're reactionary theocrats who want to set up a capitalist state), but when the IDF is murdering people in Palestine, does the ICC consider shooting back to be armed nationalism, and oppose it?

Most people in Palestine aren't armed. It isn't a question of people being attacked and then just taking up their guns to defend themselves. Even less are they equipped with Missiles to launch at Israel. The Palestinian militias are basically professional bodies.

Devrim

[Saorsa]

I believe the difference is that Israel uses apartheid for purely segregational purposes (for the sake of security), while South Africa used apartheid for purely racist purposes.

Ah yes. The poor Israelis are forced to segregate in order to defend themselves! Those nasty muslims, if only they weren't taught by their parents to be so anti-semitic... :crying:

Seriously though, this is a revolting thing to read on a revolutionary leftist forum. You really have no place here.


I don't think the average Israeli is racist, I just believe that they've become so afraid of café bombings and the like that it's hard to be friendly to Arabs.

You think the main form of oppression facing the Palestinians is that Israelis find it hard to be friendly to them?!? Are you serious?

I'd say there more upset about things like this...
http://api.ning.com/files/rnBrEGTtkt2DjqKhoL7MUIm9ZueOD11lUQ2ySUC81yAr3XW3MJ ZGpi2z-QoeOzoGSFRdUYZb2-lTZQQeo4KKYZj4CDLIaUTj/1218076028gaza_steel_wall.jpg

http://www.map-uk.org/files/416_palestinians_at_checkpoint.jpg

http://www.arabeuropean.org/belgium/images/stories/phosphorus-shells-hit-gaza-un-school.jpg

http://attendingtheworld.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/israeli-children-attacking-arab-woman.jpg

http://en.wikivisual.com/images/4/45/D9R-idf.jpg

http://schema-root.org/region/middle_east/palestine/people/casualties/children/burnt_palestinian_child.jpg

But hey, the Arabs brought it on themselves right? If only they'd quietly accepted being ethnically cleansed from their land in order to facilitate the creation of a racist, explicitly Jewish state in which non-Jews are not welcome and not equal, none of this would have been necessary! Poor old Israel.


Hell, I'd be reluctant too if I had my family members killed in an explosion or my kibbutz shot at.

The suicide bomber is a mosquito - the occupation is a swamp. And the kibbutzes were racist from the beginning, Arabs weren't welcome to take part in most of them and they were mostly built on stolen land. Contrary to left-Zionist mythology, they were in no way 'socialist'.


Try to look at it from the Israeli perspective.

Should we look at Iraq and Afghanistan from the American perspective?

I tend to try and look at situations from the perspective of the oppressed, not the oppressor. But you know... that's because I, unlike you, am a communist.

[Rusty Shackleford]

that image of the baby turns my guts over a bit. but its the fucking truth. dont delete it.

[Saorsa]

It was probably an anti-semitic terrorist baby.

[Andropov]

Ya I think its obvious that the Israeli working class majority wise hold a reactionary position but you still made the point that because of that they are incapable of being a militant force in the struggle against capitalism.
I never made the point that they are incapable of being a militant force in the struggle against capitalism.
No point in putting words in my mouth here.

I think your question answers itself but your missing the key point. while it is beneficial in certain ways for them to profit from the destruction of Palestine in many ways it isn't Israel has suffered economically by placing so much spending in military that they are now forced to hand down savage budget cuts to the Israeli working class who will envitably force a backlash against the government such as the strikes we have seen already in Israel and instead of waiting at the sidelines for the world revolution or lobbying imperialist nations to stop trading with Israel we can on the ground build real movement that actually brings something to the table to the working class and pose a real alternative.
And this is where the CWI Economist politics fails again.
The CWI automatically translates industrial disputes with being automatically progressive.
Have a read over how the sunningdale agreement was brought down.
Just because the Israeli working class fights over improved working conditions it in no way means that they are more sympathetic to Palestinians.
It in no way changes their material position in the context it merely translates into the Israeli working class looking for a bigger bite of the ethnic cleansing cherry.

Ltes have a comparsion about your position and mine. You want the Palestinians to wait around for a world revolution or for imperialist nations to stop trading with Israel.
Ehh no, I never once mentioned "the world revolution".
Another case of you putting words in my mouth.
I was stating that through socialists and organised labour around the world we can immediately start hurting the settler state economically as Unions around the world begin to organise against the settler state.

I want to build a movement in Israel which can actively force israel to stop making movements into Gaza and the West bank.
It will inevitably fail because of the material position that the Israeli working class hold in the settler state,
They are not a progressive working class, they are a working class who are complicit and indeed integral to the ethnic cleansing former and current of Palestinians.

Which is it that you will think will take longer? honestly.
Honestly I think that building a working class alternative in Israel will never happen because of the material positions of the European settlers.

In the frame of mind you thinking yes socialists would be powerless to change the balance of imperialsm, the only we can is by destroying imperialism.
I dont understand what you are trying to say here?

Your position on Palestine is chauvanistic, your complete faith in the Palestinian resistance as a means for socialist change
For fuck sake.
When did I say the Palestinian resistance was a means for Socialist change?
Yet again putting words in my mouth.
If you cant debate with me with what I actually say dont bother conjuring up your own depiction of my arguement.

the irradication of Israel etc is built on your own nationalism.
What in blue fuck is this?
Opposing the European settler state that ethnically cleanses Palestinians is built on my Nationalism?
The arrogance of that statement is disgusting to tell you the truth.
I suggest you read Ilan Pappe's "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" and I look forward to you explaining how one of the the most ardant critics of the settler state has his perspective based on Irish Nationalism, a bit odd since he himself is Jewish.

Now that sounds way harsher than its meant to be I recognise that nationalism in Palestine and in the north is far more progressive than unionism/zionism obviously but it stems from the same false alliance that comes about not from marxism but from chauvanism.
Ok well this is just factually incorrect Marxism.
I suggest you read a bit more Marx on his perspective of the Nationalism of the oppressed.
He never applied a blanket opposition to Nationalism ever, he was able to differentiate between reactionary Nationalism and the Nationalism of the oppressed.
Something the CWI is incapable of grasping in its political perspective.

Of course thats true, but were marxists we analysis why this is the case for the working class in those countries we don't side on a working class divide because the other working class see it in their interests to suscribe to reactionary elements of their respective bourgeoise because the fact of the matter is for palestinians under capitalism it is in their interests to side with hamas and for Israel it is with them to side with a zionist occupation but with a revolutionary workers movement we can change that .
Its not about "sideing on the working class divide".
Its about identifying where the progressive elements in society stand due to their material positions.
This really boils down to Gas and Water socialism whereby the CWI fails to identify or differentiate beyond the work place and ignores the wider material conditions certain working class people operate in.

Marxists should not be susceptible to the tactics of the bourgeoisie in divide and rule because by joining one side of the this we cut out completely the other half or in this case the majority of working class people.
This is not about "divide and rule".
Like I said before its identifying the material positions of working class people and constructively analysing whether they are progressive or reactionary to our political perspective.
In this context of Israel the Israeli working class is indeed reactionary because their whole economic footing is built on Western Imperialism that used a European settler population to ethnically cleanse and continue to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians.

No, they don't. rockets aren't going to do anything but give Israel another excuse to attack,
Yet again the CWI failing to differentiate between the reaction to oppression and the oppressors.

and if think this is going to cause huge uproar by the west it won't and all your doing by supporting this is scapgoating the Palestinians into more death and despair to hope for some sort of change.
No I dont think that.

We do differenciate only a complete tool would fail to recognise the progressivness of a palestinian supporter and the reactionariness of a Israeli one.
And yet you are incapable of grasping the uncomfortable truth of the degenerate nature of the Israeli working class due to their economic footing being constructed on the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians thanks to European Imperialism. You will only recognise that Palestinians are more progressive than Israelis, you will not accept that Israelis are an active and willing component in the subjugation, brutalisation and continued ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

I've already dealt with the material position argument of Israeli working class about 3 paragraphs up and the first or second paragraph of this post.
I am certain you think you did but in reality you didnt.
Its a failure of the economist approach to tackle the wider socio-economic context.

And you fall back on supporting rockets and lobbying imperialism for sympathy.
I never claimed we must lobby imperialism for support.
I think we should utilise the good will among organised labour across the world to effectively operate an embargo against Israel and crush it economically so as to make the state economically unviable.
As for your comment on bottle rockets and the like I see the Palestinians right to self defence as a given but that does not mean I support the shelling of Israel by certain groups. But the difference being I recognise it as a reaction to aggression.

But would you actively go out and try and win over working class people in the army like the bolsheviks done or would sit back and see if they'll come to us ?
Of course I would attempt to educate them in class consciousness.
But only a fool in an occupation would limit themselves to that one approach.
While in an occupation they are valid targets and until they side with the working class they will continue to be valid targets.

I did misread it actually, sorry about that :(
No problem.

No you see the thing is the CWI already have members on the ground in israel and a built organisation called Socialist Struggle.
Ohh I see?
And your trumpeting the fact that you have an organisation is Israel that has done zero to curtail the subjugation and continued ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

Do the IRSP have some lobby group already made in Brussels and Washington ? lol
We have members of the IRSCNA in Washington but hardly a lobby group.
But its alleged that the INLA has had contacts with the PLO and indeed it was alleged that in the early days it was through the PLO that the INLA was able to arm itself.

So it is not empty sloganeering clearly.
Yes it bloody is and your smart enough to see it.
You know that what ever irrelevant group the CWI form in Israel it will not reverse or alter the material positions of the Israeli working class as a European Settler state.

Econonmic sanctions from who ? The us ?
Starting with organised labour and spinning off into a wider social movement to crush the Economic viablity of the settler state.

you must be bloody joking.
Not at all, im deadly serious.

You see "leftists" who have so much faith in boycotts usually have this position stem from what happened in South Africa but the boycott wasn't that effective SA still traded fine with the west, and most working class people in Ireland and elsewhere still bought their goods the overthrow of apartied had nothing to do with a boycott it was all to do with a actions of an organised youth and working class.
I know this, in fact I know the South African situation quite intimately.

Yes but the you way of doing that is fair petit liberal bleeding heart stuff.
Bleeding heart stuff?
From the CWI mouthpiece who says an economic sanction will only hurt the European settler state.

You responded to it already, it was the point about you not examining material conditions.
I dont understand this?

No and you still haven't your solution not only is it not near a marxist one but its not really a solution at all.
Indeed....
I am confident in my position as a Marxist one however are you?
Are you sure the CWI line you are indoctrinated with is a correct Marxist position?
Would you have come to this political perspective if you had not joined the SP and merely read Marx and Lenin and Co independant of a CWI line?

No throughout all your posts , they have been riddled with oh cwi gas and water ..etc etc
Coggeh you clearly made the first swipe refering to IRSP and drug dealers or some nonsense like that.
All my remarks on the CWI are political not slander, I constructively engage with CWI politics because I believe its economist approach is deeply flawed.
I am not throwing out stupid slander, in fact it was you who did that first but all be it because of a misinterpretation of a post.
I have no interest in slander, its a fools game.
As for the "Gas and Water " remark, that is not slander, that is a definition of the economist approach by James Connolly.

We it just so happens that I am a cwi member so if i had a completely different position to the cwi it should be a cause for concern really. A cwi member following the cwi line isn't that much of a deal.
That is sad, very sad.
Your smart enough to think for yourself instead of having to regurgitate a CWI line.
It all goes back to my comment above about whether you think your a Marxist or because the CWI tells you its line is Marxist?

Yeah yeah good luck with the bleeding heart story to imperialists.
Ok ok as long as we dont upset the European Settler state colonists who continue to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians while the CWI continues to fiddle and fudge the rehtorric so long as not to upset the Liberal apple cart over Israel.

[Andropov]

Should we look at Iraq and Afghanistan from the American perspective?

I tend to try and look at situations from the perspective of the oppressed, not the oppressor. But you know... that's because I, unlike you, am a communist.
In a nutshell.

[Andropov]

At least Israel allows Arab political parties in the Knesset, whereas the RSA did not.
So you didnt hear where they banned the Arab partys there last year (I think)?
Anyways thats an absolutely idiotic arguement, for christ sake the Zeluous Scouts were comprised of a massive proportion of Black recruits.

And it's very laudable to suggest that all Israelis are racist because of what the Haganah and the Irgun did during the war for independence. The Irgun did a lot of terrorist-like activities (such as the bombing of the King David hotel) and was even labeled by the Israeli government in 1948 as a terrorist organization because the Irgun wanted to force all the Arabs of out Israel. These people were the actual crazy ones, demanding to capture all of the land alloted to them in the Torah.
Read Ilan Pappe's "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palesine" before you embaress yourself any further.
Also check up "Plan Dalet" and "The Koenig Memorandum".

The funny thing is that the Irgun eventually evolved into the Herut party, which in itself was the predecessor to the Likud. (the ruling party of Israel)
Yes the Irgun and Likud are pretty funny.
Not half as funny as you on this forum.

Furthermore, the Palestinians refused to call themselves Palestinians because they thought of it as a Western construct.
WTF is this?
Absolute nonsense.
Spouting Zionist propaganda, your an embaressment to yourself and your class.

Palestine had only ever existed as a general name for the area, like the Greeks using the term Europa to describe anything north of them,
So factually incorrect laughable but so dangerously revisionist.

going back to when the Romans sacked Jerusalem and kicked the Jews out of the area.
Kicked the jews out?
Do you have some documented evidence of this mass expulsion?
Also could you exlplain how the ancient small communites of Jews existed in Palestine pre-1920?

And again what are you doing here you Zionist Sympathising Degenerate?

[Chicano Shamrock]

How is this in anyway a victory?

Israel is not an apartheid state, and economic boycotts only hurt the worst-off in Israel aka the working class. You think the ceos and shareholders behind this shipping company will be hurt by this? No, the average stevedore, sailor and working Israeli will be. And in who's interest does Zionism/Imperialism operate in? The ceo and shareholder - it's the highest stage of capitalism. Economic boycotts are utterly moronic, display a misunderstanding of the definite differences in class makeup between South Africa under apartheid and Zionist Israel, and are just a way for middle-class students, academics and professional political activists to feel good about themselves.

Bullshit! So according to you we just keep on keeping on. Any kind of action ever against capitalism or a specific state is going to hurt the workers. Hell the ILWU workers hurt themselves by not working the ship. They lost out on a days wage and they had the risk of being reprimanded.

Anyone who thinks this doesn't hurt Israel is crazy. You have no idea how many millions of dollars this costs them. This is big time international cargo operations. Every hour counts. Stopping the operation for a day hurts. If it keeps happening to Israeli ships the ports won't be able to afford having them dock there.

[Devrim]

Bullshit! So according to you we just keep on keeping on. Any kind of action ever against capitalism or a specific state is going to hurt the workers. Hell the ILWU workers hurt themselves by not working the ship. They lost out on a days wage and they had the risk of being reprimanded.

As I understand it they were sent home after the arbitrator had declared ruled the conditions to be unsafe, and lost no money.


Anyone who thinks this doesn't hurt Israel is crazy. You have no idea how many millions of dollars this costs them. This is big time international cargo operations. Every hour counts. Stopping the operation for a day hurts. If it keeps happening to Israeli ships the ports won't be able to afford having them dock there.

I would say it costs about $30,000 a day when a ship is delayed in port in the US, at least that is what the Wall Street Journal puts it at. I have no idea who is responsible for paying it though. I would presume the port.

Devrim

[Chicano Shamrock]

As I understand it they were sent home after the arbitrator had declared ruled the conditions to be unsafe, and lost no money.

I am a member of the ILWU. I don't know where you got this information but I doubt it. Under our contract we are guaranteed eight hours of pay after we have moved our first piece of cargo. If nothing is moved they don't have to pay us.

One of our union leaders Clarence Thomas said at the rally that all of the workers there lost out on a full days pay.



I would say it costs about $30,000 a day when a ship is delayed in port in the US, at least that is what the Wall Street Journal puts it at. I have no idea who is responsible for paying it though. I would presume the port.

Devrim
Any links to this info? How much is lost when the next shipped scheduled to dock there loses time because it has to wait idle in the port for an extra day not docked? It loses them a lot of money and they don't like it.

In LA we have been on a slow-down for the past several months because the bosses were trying to fuck us over on several different things. They don't like it and they were retaliating but we stood strong and got back what we wanted.

[Devrim]

I am a member of the ILWU. I don't know where you got this information but I doubt it.

There is a thread (http://libcom.org/news/israeli-ship-blockaded-san-francisco-dockworkers-refuse-cross-picket-21062010) on it on Libcom. That point came from post 4 (http://libcom.org/news/israeli-ship-blockaded-san-francisco-dockworkers-refuse-cross-picket-21062010#comment-383939).


Any links to this info?

No, it is from the same thread post 23 (http://libcom.org/news/israeli-ship-blockaded-san-francisco-dockworkers-refuse-cross-picket-21062010#comment-384358). You could ask there.

Devrim

[Chicano Shamrock]

There is a thread (http://libcom.org/news/israeli-ship-blockaded-san-francisco-dockworkers-refuse-cross-picket-21062010) on it on Libcom. That point came from post 4 (http://libcom.org/news/israeli-ship-blockaded-san-francisco-dockworkers-refuse-cross-picket-21062010#comment-383939).



No, it is from the same thread post 23 (http://libcom.org/news/israeli-ship-blockaded-san-francisco-dockworkers-refuse-cross-picket-21062010#comment-384358). You could ask there.

Devrim
LOL I like you Devrim but come on. A couple posts by the same guy is proof of something?

The video that is posted in this thread has Clarence Thomas saying that everyone went home without pay. Now I would take my brother's word for it over someone on a forum.

It is very possible that they could have been paid a whole days wage. Some might have even been angry with not getting the overtime pay. Can you be mad at them? We are coming off of the biggest economic dip since the great depression in this country and this area of work was hit the hardest. Last year I was working one day a week and sometimes one day every two weeks.

It may be a bit far fetched to think that just because the ILWU rank and file are huge union/working class supporters that they are going to all be of the same political stance on Palestine/Israel. Many probably don't even have an opinion of the matter but the fact is that for a day they hit the bosses where it hurts them.

P.S. This isn't directed at you Devrim: It is very easy for the keyboard warriors on libcom to rip into the ILWU's rank and file. Calling for strikes is easy when you aren't the one doing the striking. They don't seem to understand that strikes aren't something you play around with. People have already lost their homes during this whole economic crisis. I said I was getting one day a week last year but there are still people under my rank that are getting one day every month or two. A strike now would devastate us and everything we have been working towards. Some people need to manage their expectations on what is a realistic possibility and what isn't in regards to these showings of solidarity.

I did a little rough math on how much money ILWU workers lost out on by not working the ship that day. $48,000.

[Devrim]

LOL I like you Devrim but come on. A couple posts by the same guy is proof of something?

I presume he has some idea what he is talking about. He is somebody that one member of our organisation from Turkey has met, and who seems pretty reasonable. Also nobody on Libcom, and there are people from the local ILWU there, has said it is wrong.


The video that is posted in this thread has Clarence Thomas saying that everyone went home without pay. Now I would take my brother's word for it over someone on a forum.

He could be right. I tend to be sceptical about what union officals say too.


It is very possible that they could have been paid a whole days wage. Some might have even been angry with not getting the overtime pay. Can you be mad at them? We are coming off of the biggest economic dip since the great depression in this country and this area of work was hit the hardest. Last year I was working one day a week and sometimes one day every two weeks.

I am not mad at anyone at all. I merely posted some information on the topic that I had read somewhere else.

It may be a bit far fetched to think that just because the ILWU rank and file are huge union/working class supporters that they are going to all be of the same political stance on Palestine/Israel. Many probably don't even have an opinion of the matter but the fact is that for a day they hit the bosses where it hurts them.


P.S. This isn't directed at you Devrim: It is very easy for the keyboard warriors on libcom to rip into the ILWU's rank and file. Calling for strikes is easy when you aren't the one doing the striking. They don't seem to understand that strikes aren't something you play around with. People have already lost their homes during this whole economic crisis. I said I was getting one day a week last year but there are still people under my rank that are getting one day every month or two. A strike now would devastate us and everything we have been working towards. Some people need to manage their expectations on what is a realistic possibility and what isn't in regards to these showings of solidarity.

Certainly I know that the guy who posted that has been involved in at least one strike. I have also been involved in strikes, the longest single one of which being three and a half weeks. I know what it is like to lose money, and, like everyone, have suffered in the recent crisis.

I don't think that the people on Libcom are calling for strikes in that thread. I thought what they were saying is that this was a controlled action manipulated by the union to cause least inconvenience to everybody, without much input from the workers themselves. I didn't read the thread in that much detail though.

Devrim

[freepalestine]

Boycotts didn't cause a downfall of apartheid you are completely ignoring the real struggle of the working class and youth in SA which was the real reason political apartheid was overthrown. People in the west still bought SA goods, SA still traded with the western countries .

Its the middle class left types like Naomi Klein who ignore reality and propagate ideas like this that undermine the real struggle that took place by the ANC and the organised working class as a whole in South Africa. Also a key difference is the fact that the Black working class (who were a huge majority another difference with Israel) called for a boycott actively as a sign of support for their struggle.did you and your group support the boycott of apartheid south africa?
if yes- what makes the old situation of south africa any less different to isreal/palestine?
or if you and your group did not support the boycott of rsa ,was it because itwasn't in the interests of the white workers their?
what is the difference between apartheid south africa and israel-apart from both being racist - heavily militarised entities?

[Rusty Shackleford]

regarding the ILWU workers. i understood that the first shift was paid 4.5 hours time and a half. and the second shift was not dispatched meaning they did not get paid. but because the first shift was, they were paid.

[Crux]

So you didnt hear where they banned the Arab partys there last year (I think)?

The rightwing (including the "labour party") and extreme right in parliament tried but it was overturned by the israeli high court.

[Coggeh]

I never made the point that they are incapable of being a militant force in the struggle against capitalism.
No point in putting words in my mouth here.
You made a big post on how the Israeli working class don't act in their class interests. I think thats obvious to everyone already so the only reason to point it out was point out that they are reactionary and cannot be convinced otherwise, plus your entire position on the matter is built on this misguided premise.


And this is where the CWI Economist politics fails again.
The CWI automatically translates industrial disputes with being automatically progressive.
Have a read over how the sunningdale agreement was brought down.Well aware of this and this if anything shows how a nationalist/socialist postion in the north is virtually impossible because of the mass of unionist opposition it would entail. This gas and water argument you have going is only pointing out the failures of an "anti-imperialist" position and the success of a class unity one. The nationalist and unionist working class share a common interest and it is not the removal of the 6 counties from British rule, but the removal of capitalism and exploitation. If the sunningdale agreement was had so much bitter oppisition to it how do you think a 32 county movement with some red tints of paint is going to go down ?



Just because the Israeli working class fights over improved working conditions it in no way means that they are more sympathetic to Palestinians.
It in no way changes their material position in the context it merely translates into the Israeli working class looking for a bigger bite of the ethnic cleansing cherry.I never linked them striking with sympathy to the Palestinian cause I was trying to get across that the Israeli working class is not a wholly reactionary force but when push comes to shove do not hesitate to defend their conditions against the bourgeoise.



Ehh no, I never once mentioned "the world revolution".
Another case of you putting words in my mouth.I got it mixed up with Alastairs point(below),really sorry honestly don't mean to be like that what with cheapshots and stuff. Sorry i know thats the second time now.

We argue for one democratic, secular and socialist Palestine from the river Jordan to the sea, ideally coming into existence as part of a worldwide socialist revolution.

I was stating that through socialists and organised labour around the world we can immediately start hurting the settler state economically as Unions around the world begin to organise against the settler state.Which will be used as another excuse by the Israeli state to deliver savage cuts, redundcies and investing more in military spending by using propaganda about us vs them.



It will inevitably fail because of the material position that the Israeli working class hold in the settler state,
They are not a progressive working class, they are a working class who are complicit and indeed integral to the ethnic cleansing former and current of Palestinians.What working class would you deem "progressive" I really can't think of any that are wholly progressive... not one.
For example the working class and pesantry in Russia were highly reactionary to the ideas of the bolsheviks at first they were on left deemed quite small, but they exploited the discontent with the Tsar, put forward the position that without socialism their can never be any solution to the poverty etc they face.

But again Russian workers and peasants were also reactionary to the idea of self determination of other statlets in Russia they higly favoured the Russian empire and in a way benefited from the exploitation of other nations within the empire. Now I'm not being cheap and saying it was the exact same as the Israel/Palestine situation because it is far from it but they have key similarities that we must face up to and use the lessons of.


Honestly I think that building a working class alternative in Israel will never happen because of the material positions of the European settlers.You just said :"I never made the point that they are incapable of being a militant force in the struggle against capitalism.
No point in putting words in my mouth here"





For fuck sake.
When did I say the Palestinian resistance was a means for Socialist change?
Yet again putting words in my mouth.
If you cant debate with me with what I actually say dont bother conjuring up your own depiction of my arguement.Then where is your solution exactly? your putting damning enditments on the cwi without putting anything forward other than boycotts as a short term "solution" which amounts to no real change other than hurting the chance of working class resistance in Israel and Palestine more.


What in blue fuck is this?
Opposing the European settler state that ethnically cleanses Palestinians is built on my Nationalism?
The arrogance of that statement is disgusting to tell you the truth.
I suggest you read Ilan Pappe's "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" and I look forward to you explaining how one of the the most ardant critics of the settler state has his perspective based on Irish Nationalism, a bit odd since he himself is Jewish.Who gives a sh*t if he is jewish that gives him no credintials whatsoever. That in fact is one of the most petit arguments ever, considering it could be used by the fact that catholic bourgeois sided with British rule as a means of condoning it.
Your position on Palestine is built on nationalism and what confirms that is the fact that you haven't yet put any socialist solution on the table that would agree with your position.


Ok well this is just factually incorrect Marxism.
I suggest you read a bit more Marx on his perspective of the Nationalism of the oppressed.
He never applied a blanket opposition to Nationalism ever, he was able to differentiate between reactionary Nationalism and the Nationalism of the oppressed.
Something the CWI is incapable of grasping in its political perspective.Jesus. It doesn't take a scientist to point out that Israeli nationalism is built on reactionary ideas and Palestinian nationalism is built on progressive ones.
That does not restrict us to taking sides when nationalist divides are built purposly by opposing bourgeoise and actively damage the hopes of any real working class movement.


Its not about "sideing on the working class divide".
Its about identifying where the progressive elements in society stand due to their material positions.
This really boils down to Gas and Water socialism whereby the CWI fails to identify or differentiate beyond the work place and ignores the wider material conditions certain working class people operate in.

This is not about "divide and rule".
Like I said before its identifying the material positions of working class people and constructively analysing whether they are progressive or reactionary to our political perspective.
In this context of Israel the Israeli working class is indeed reactionary because their whole economic footing is built on Western Imperialism that used a European settler population to ethnically cleanse and continue to ethnically cleanse the PalestiniansYour talking about examining material conditions its all well and good to do that but its how you do it and the position that you come up with is key. Fascists examine material conditions to justify racist positions. Your throwing around rhetoric about oh the material conditions when your not actually really examining them.

You point out why the Israeli working class is of a reactionary position and then you stop. You don't go further and point to what is to be done to reverse this, how to agitate within the Israeli working class how to build a movement. You just stop and go ah fuck'em reactionary bastards.




No I dont think that.Care to elaborate....



And yet you are incapable of grasping the uncomfortable truth of the degenerate nature of the Israeli working class due to their economic footing being constructed on the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians thanks to European Imperialism. You will only recognise that Palestinians are more progressive than Israelis, you will not accept that Israelis are an active and willing component in the subjugation, brutalisation and continued ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.You keep pointing out obvious things, of course the Israeli working class are complicit in a way, if they didn't do anything Israel wouldn't exist whole point of marxism is that the working class produce everything in society etc fair obvious stuff. The Israeli working class however are complicit because it serves them to be which is also obvious its more beneficial to have an Israeli capitalist state benefitting from Palestinian oppression to Israeli workers however it is further in their interests to side with Palestinians in a united cause against the Israeli government and also for palestinian workers with regards hamas. Socialists have to keep this in mind and connect the dots and agitate among both sections of the working class in the region in order to build a movement capable of putting that argument into the mainstream there.



I am certain you think you did but in reality you didnt.
Its a failure of the economist approach to tackle the wider socio-economic context.I did.



I never claimed we must lobby imperialism for support.
I think we should utilise the good will among organised labour across the world to effectively operate an embargo against Israel and crush it economically so as to make the state economically unviable.
As for your comment on bottle rockets and the like I see the Palestinians right to self defence as a given but that does not mean I support the shelling of Israel by certain groups. But the difference being I recognise it as a reaction to aggression.Might want to point out your position clearly in future as this :"My immediate solution is economic sanctions to make their settler state economically unviable. This would be achieved through working class pressure in western countrys to reorganise the imperial structure. This can be done through boycotts and sustained economic pressure. The key is over turning the economic bank rolling the USA and EU provides the settler state. We can learn alot from the Zionist lobbys efficiency and effectivity. "
Can be easily interpreted the way i did.

A labour boycott didn't take off ever in history, it didn't crush south africa how do you expect it to take off in the US and in many European countries such as Germany where the working class are quite sympathic to Israel?

Everyone can see that rockets are a reaction to aggression you think we think they do it for the crack of it ? seriously?



Of course I would attempt to educate them in class consciousness.
But only a fool in an occupation would limit themselves to that one approach.
While in an occupation they are valid targets and until they side with the working class they will continue to be valid targets.You have to take it in the context of from the Israeli perspective that workers and unions would appeal to the soldiers in the army were not naive that we think the army would side with the unions but certain sections would come on to the side of the workers movement and while the army opposes that militarily they would of course be valid targets. The cwi are not pacifists as much as others would like to believe it.


No problem.Cheers. I'm doing my best not to keep making the mistake but i keep getting confused easily long posts and what not hard to keep up with lol.



Ohh I see?
And your trumpeting the fact that you have an organisation is Israel that has done zero to curtail the subjugation and continued ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.They play an active part in movements opposing the occupation, supporting strikes, agitating in the unions and workplaces against the govt. The IRSP are doing ?


We have members of the IRSCNA in Washington but hardly a lobby group.
But its alleged that the INLA has had contacts with the PLO and indeed it was alleged that in the early days it was through the PLO that the INLA was able to arm itself.Your taking pride in being associated with the PLO? honestly ? who are now pretty much complicite in the ethic cleansing of Palestinie seeing that they are the armed wing who are no longer armed of Fatah a corrupt bourgeois unelected right wing organisation.



Yes it bloody is and your smart enough to see it.
You know that what ever irrelevant group the CWI form in Israel it will not reverse or alter the material positions of the Israeli working class as a European Settler state.mmm I love the smell of defeatism in the morning.



Starting with organised labour and spinning off into a wider social movement to crush the Economic viablity of the settler state. which clearly won't happen as I've already pointed out and just so you don't ask me for it again :A labour boycott didn't take off ever in history, it didn't crush south africa how do you expect it to take off in the US and in many European countries such as Germany where the working class are quite sympathic to Israel?



Not at all, im deadly serious.My comment to was to you supporting a boycott from the EU or the US which isn't your position as far as I can see so the deadly serious think is fair irrelivant.



I know this, in fact I know the South African situation quite intimately.Thats nice ?
Still we have to take the viable lessons of the Struggle in south africa and apply them to this conflict with regards to a boycott etc.



Bleeding heart stuff?
From the CWI mouthpiece who says an economic sanction will only hurt the European settler state.This is now also irrelivant because my comment was on the premise that you supported a bourgeois boycott and an appeal to govts.Which you don't right?




Indeed....
I am confident in my position as a Marxist one however are you?
Are you sure the CWI line you are indoctrinated with is a correct Marxist position?
Would you have come to this political perspective if you had not joined the SP and merely read Marx and Lenin and Co independant of a CWI line?If you think your "solution" is of a marxist approach how about you explain why? and while your at it you might wanna tell me what is your actual solution because I know you know a boycott cannot bring about any radical change such as the collapse of capitalism and the occupation.

Also seriously your cheapshots regarding my positions and my membership are ridiculously petit at best. How about you let me worry about my own life?



Coggeh you clearly made the first swipe refering to IRSP and drug dealers or some nonsense like that.That was in reply to a mistake I made about how I thought you said that the cwi were partaking and profiting in the ethnic cleasning of Palestinians. I thought you achknowleged my mistake?
And i also pointed out I didn't believe the sectarian crap concerning the IRSP and drug dealing.


All my remarks on the CWI are political not slander, I constructively engage with CWI politics because I believe its economist approach is deeply flawed.
I am not throwing out stupid slander, in fact it was you who did that first but all be it because of a misinterpretation of a post.
I have no interest in slander, its a fools game.Fair enough. Neither have i. But your terminology of calling my approach an economist approach is the same as me calling your approach a nationalist one. Vicious circle and what not.



As for the "Gas and Water " remark, that is not slander, that is a definition of the economist approach by James Connolly.Yes and James Connolly was also strictly adament with gaining the support of the British working class against British rule which is a lesson the IRSP may have forgotten.


That is sad, very sad.
Your smart enough to think for yourself instead of having to regurgitate a CWI line.
It all goes back to my comment above about whether you think your a Marxist or because the CWI tells you its line is Marxist?Like i said leave the cheapshots out I'm born human remember? with the power to think for myself and all that shite. However don't you think it would be quite redundant to be in an organisation if you didn't agree with key topics such as this? would you be in the IRSP if their position on the north etc was something you didn't agree with ?

Also i have many disagreements with the cwi example being my position on nuclear power which i have voiced internally but i'm not petit enough to leave an organisation over such a small disagreement.



Ok ok as long as we dont upset the European Settler state colonists who continue to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians while the CWI continues to fiddle and fudge the rehtorric so long as not to upset the Liberal apple cart over Israel.This line of argument is getting old fast.

[Rusty Shackleford]

This line of argument is getting old fast.

i didnt read your whole post but that line of argument is a HUGE part of the issue.

[Coggeh]

did you and your group support the boycott of apartheid south africa?
if yes- what makes the old situation of south africa any less different to isreal/palestine?

In short we did support the boycott of RSA (passively) however we didn't have any faith in the boycott as a means of changed and were proved right. The idea that a boycott made any difference in RSA is liberal petty-bourgeois revisionism it was the struggle of the mass of black working class and youth.

Now to state that the situation in the RSA and Israel were the same is nothing short of being naive of course similarities existed but key differences did too unions and the mass of workers in the RSA supported the worldwide boycott as a means of hurting the state thus they were prepared for the bourgeoisie reprisal on the domestic working class and thus the bourgeoisie tactics failed.

The conditions that presently exist in Israel are the product of a complex historical development. The lack of a socialist consciousness among the Israeli workers is the product of the betrayal of the international working class by Stalinism, Social Democracy and, of course, the bourgeois nationalist movements in the Arab world as well.


Today the Israeli army is killing innocent people in Gaza but the Qassams are falling not on the Israeli generals or the capitalists in Israel but on the working people of Sderot. This is not an accident but the result of the belief that all Israelis are one reactionary bloc.


Those who advocate boycott of indiscriminate boycotting of all Israelis as a strategy should be asked: why should the boycott be limited only to Israel for instance? Why should it not include the US and Britain , given that Washington and London have long supplied the money, and bombs to Israel to be used to kill Palestinians, and that both governments are responsible for crimes even worse than those carried out by Israel?


The reason the left reformists advocate the strategy of indiscriminate boycotting of all Israelis regarding of class, is to be found in the lack of authority of the ideas of Marxism among the new generation. The legacy of decades of Stalinism has been to undermine the influence and prestige of genuine Marxism.

[Guerrilla22]

Of course the apologists for Israel come out to condemn the action because it "will hurt the working class in Israel." Perhaps if their country's policies are causing them to lose revenue more Israeli citizens will demand their government end those practices.

[freepalestine]

In short we did support the boycott of RSA (passively) however we didn't have any faith in the boycott as a means of changed and were proved right. The idea that a boycott made any difference in RSA is liberal petty-bourgeois revisionism it was the struggle of the mass of black working class and youth.

Now to state that the situation in the RSA and Israel were the same is nothing short of being naive of course similarities existed but key differences did too unions and the mass of workers in the RSA supported the worldwide boycott as a means of hurting the state thus they were prepared for the bourgeoisie reprisal on the domestic working class and thus the bourgeoisie tactics failed.

The conditions that presently exist in Israel are the product of a complex historical development. The lack of a socialist consciousness among the Israeli workers is the product of the betrayal of the international working class by Stalinism, Social Democracy and, of course, the bourgeois nationalist movements in the Arab world as well.


Today the Israeli army is killing innocent people in Gaza but the Qassams are falling not on the Israeli generals or the capitalists in Israel but on the working people of Sderot. This is not an accident but the result of the belief that all Israelis are one reactionary bloc.


Those who advocate boycott of indiscriminate boycotting of all Israelis as a strategy should be asked: why should the boycott be limited only to Israel for instance? Why should it not include the US and Britain , given that Washington and London have long supplied the money, and bombs to Israel to be used to kill Palestinians, and that both governments are responsible for crimes even worse than those carried out by Israel?


The reason the left reformists advocate the strategy of indiscriminate boycotting of all Israelis regarding of class, is to be found in the lack of authority of the ideas of Marxism among the new generation. The legacy of decades of Stalinism has been to undermine the influence and prestige of genuine Marxism.what is this "boycotting all israelis"..it's not about all israelis,it's about boycotting the israeli state.and maybe bringing awareness to the situation there ,away from the usual zionist context that is portayed in the west.
as for boycotting usa and uk,well maybe you/your group should advocate that.although it is the israel state that occupies palestine.
for all your text book talk ,and of leftists being stalinists et cetera,many of your arguments on this thread have seemed liberal at best,and being borderline zionist apologist.

[Rusty Shackleford]

The way i see it coggeh, there is currently an oppressed nationality acting as an oppressor of an even further oppressed nationality. The palestinians are getting the extremly short end of the stick.

I guess you could call it the Kapo(yes i know this words horrible origins) syndrome/effect. One oppressed group is given authority and power over the same or even more oppressed group.

[Coggeh]

what is this "boycotting all israelis"..it's not about all israelis,it's about boycotting the israeli state.and maybe bringing awareness to the situation there ,away from the usual zionist context that is portayed in the west.
as for boycotting usa and uk,well maybe you/your group should advocate that.although it is the israel state that occupies palestine.
for all your text book talk ,and of leftists being stalinists et cetera,many of your arguments on this thread have seemed liberal at best,and being borderline zionist apologist.
Eh boycotting the Israeli state is boycotting Israeli's. Military boycotts should be fully supported but boycotting stuff like nestle and other Israeli goods directly hurt the Israeli working class and the class consciousness there as it further pushes them into the hands of the bourgeoisie.

The Israeli state could never hope to occupy Palestine without the support of western imperialism so their support is a direct proponent in the occupation and any boycott against Israel should be done against them too.

It is not the talk of a liberal it is one of a marxist, to blindly follow and not analyze the situation in the middle east is an action of a liberal who does not understand the material conditions of a given situation.

[Barry Lyndon]

Pro-Israel liberals in leftists clothing always find a way to make Israelis the victim and always find a way to blame the Arabs for their own suffering. Always.

[Coggeh]

Pro-Israel liberals in leftists clothing always find a way to make Israelis the victim and always find a way to blame the Arabs for their own suffering. Always.
Any time you wanna actually join the discussion? that'd be great k'tnx

[gorillafuck]

Most people in Palestine aren't armed.
Well yeah, that's pretty obvious.


It isn't a question of people being attacked and then just taking up their guns to defend themselves. Even less are they equipped with Missiles to launch at Israel. The Palestinian militias are basically professional bodies.
How are the Palestinian militias "basically professional bodies"? Is it basically a full time job for them?

[Devrim]

How are the Palestinian militias "basically professional bodies"? Is it basically a full time job for them?

Yes.

Devrim

[Devrim]

what is this "boycotting all israelis"..it's not about all israelis,it's about boycotting the israeli state.and maybe bringing awareness to the situation there ,away from the usual zionist context that is portayed in the west.
as for boycotting usa and uk,well maybe you/your group should advocate that.although it is the israel state that occupies palestine.
for all your text book talk ,and of leftists being stalinists et cetera,many of your arguments on this thread have seemed liberal at best,and being borderline zionist apologist.

Why not boycott Turkey too? Turkey is the state occupying Kurdistan and on the level of viscously terroristic states is comparable with Israel.

We could go one about various states that should be boycotted. Why choose one in particular?

Devrim

[freepalestine]

Eh boycotting the Israeli state is boycotting Israeli's. Military boycotts should be fully supported but boycotting stuff like nestle and other Israeli goods directly hurt the Israeli working class and the class consciousness there as it further pushes them into the hands of the bourgeoisie. nestle is swiss
-zionism,racism,discrimination(also for 25% of isreali citizens,of indigenous origin) and occupation are the problem


The Israeli state could never hope to occupy Palestine without the support of western imperialism so their support is a direct proponent in the occupation .....
yes i know.

[freepalestine]

Why not boycott Turkey too? Turkey is the state occupying Kurdistan and on the level of viscously terroristic states is comparable with Israel.

We could go one about various states that should be boycotted. Why choose one in particular?

Devrimwhy do you think boycotting turkey is a good idea?if so why do you think that?
what are the kurdish people in turkey saying about that?maybe you should tell us?.
any way here are english language links as to why they support boycotting israel.
http://www.bigcampaign.org/
http://bdsmovement.net/

[Crux]

I don't believe a boycott would be sucessfull against any regime (Question: Does that make me a "pseudo-supporter" of any regime?), except perhaps as an auxillary. As it stands far too many parts of the palestine solidarity movement seem to think a boycott should be the prime focus, it should not be and it will not bring liberation to palestine.

[freepalestine]

Pro-Israel liberals in leftists clothing always find a way to make Israelis the victim and always find a way to blame the Arabs for their own suffering. Always.yes exactly ,quotes like this below for instance



The conditions that presently exist in Israel are the product of a complex historical development. The lack of a socialist consciousness among the Israeli workers is the product of the betrayal of the international working class by Stalinism, Social Democracy and, of course, the bourgeois nationalist movements in the Arab world as well.


Today the Israeli army is killing innocent people in Gaza but the Qassams are falling not on the Israeli generals or the capitalists in Israel but on the working people of Sderot. This is not an accident but the result of the belief that all Israelis are one reactionary bloc.


Those who advocate boycott of indiscriminate boycotting of all Israelis as a strategy should be asked: ...
what next saying any one who is -anti-israel/zionist,is anti-semitic.????

[freepalestine]

As it stands far too many parts of the palestine solidarity movement seem to think a boycott should be the prime focus, it should not be and it will not bring liberation to palestine.who said it would do.

[Devrim]

why do you think boycotting turkey is a good idea?if so why do you think that?

I don't suggest boycotting Turkey. I think that international boycotts have nothing whatsoever to do with class politics. I was merely questing why Israel is a special case. Turkey is at least comparable to Israel in its brutality.


what are the kurdish people in turkey saying about that?maybe you should tell us?

Kurdish people say lots of things. The main Kurdish nationalist organisation, the PKK, has called at times for a boycott, particularly of holidays.

Devrim

[Crux]

It enables decisions made in their everyday lives by people outside Israel and Palestine to refresh and reinforce their opposition to Israeli policy.
It exerts moral pressure on the British Government by giving expression to the desire to move towards a more ethical foreign policy.

So basically what we've already been saying so far, not to be harsh but feeling good about your consumer choice and putting presure on the brittish government for a "more ethical foreign policy" is not something I see as realistic, or really being able to achieve it's goal. As a propaganda tool I think this strategy has some inherent flaws, and for some reason some people here completly freak out when this is pointed out obviously because they've invested far too much energy into this specific method.

[freepalestine]

I don't suggest boycotting Turkey. I think that international boycotts have nothing whatsoever to do with class politics. I was merely questing why Israel is a special case. Turkey is at least comparable to Israel in its brutality.



Kurdish people say lots of things. The main Kurdish nationalist organisation, the PKK, has called at times for a boycott, particularly of holidays.

Devrim

who said south africa was a special case?
rather than sitting in your ivory tower ,why don't you actually say someting on palestine,that goes past one sentence.

[Crux]

Just as an aside to further sink the "zionist" slander, the CWI are doing direct solidarity work with palestinians in refugee camps in Lebanon. How surrounding arab states treat the palestinians also an issue seldomly raised. these regimes, through the Arab League, have been using the plights of the palestinian people for decades to further their own interests.

[Devrim]

who said south africa was a special case?

Mostly liberals did.


rather than sitting in your ivory tower

That is an astute political criticism.

Devrim

[soyonstout]

I'm not fully sure what you mean by "armed nationalism". I can see why one would not support Hamas (they're reactionary theocrats who want to set up a capitalist state), but when the IDF is murdering people in Palestine, does the ICC consider shooting back to be armed nationalism, and oppose it?

Defending yourself and your family if very different from fighting in defense of a 'nation' in a group with explicit nationalist ideology.

[Trotsky's Apprentice]

Defending yourself and your family if very different from fighting in defense of a 'nation' in a group with explicit nationalist ideology.

Flying the Palestinian flag. Simply saying "Free Palestine". Fighting to "end the occupation".
Are these not all examples of nationalism? You can't "Free Palestine" without the Palestinian people. You can't end an occupation of a non-existent nation.

I may be looking at nationalism in its most simple form but it is still nationalism. It doesn't make much sense to claim that defending ones nation is not, in fact, nationalism. The Palestinians' nationality is not an illusion, but rather a strong bond that keeps them together. We don't live in a utopia, that is for sure, so we can't reject nationalism when it is a driving force behind a revolution.

[Andropov]

I was busy the past week so sorry for the late reply.

You made a big post on how the Israeli working class don't act in their class interests. I think thats obvious to everyone already so the only reason to point it out was point out that they are reactionary and cannot be convinced otherwise, plus your entire position on the matter is built on this misguided premise.
Indeed the basis of my arguement does stem from my understanding of the material positions of the Israeli working class.
In this context they are a European Settler population that actively participates and profits in the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
In this context their interests are intrinsically tied to European and Western Imperialism since it afforded them the luxury of establishing their own settler state in the Middle East.
Now if this population was removed from the ethnically cleansed land and thrown into a different context in which their material conditions changed then of course they would be capable of militant actions against Capitalism but until that happens their interests are tied with International Imperialism and Capital.

Well aware of this and this if anything shows how a nationalist/socialist postion in the north is virtually impossible because of the mass of unionist opposition it would entail.
I could go into detail my disagreement with this post but the debate is long enough without throwing in the Irish question aswell.

This gas and water argument you have going is only pointing out the failures of an "anti-imperialist" position and the success of a class unity one.
But what success?
Could you please highlight the success storys of this economist approach in such Imperialist contexts as this?

The nationalist and unionist working class share a common interest and it is not the removal of the 6 counties from British rule, but the removal of capitalism and exploitation. If the sunningdale agreement was had so much bitter oppisition to it how do you think a 32 county movement with some red tints of paint is going to go down ?
Good thing im not advocating a 32 county movement with some red tints so.

I never linked them striking with sympathy to the Palestinian cause I was trying to get across that the Israeli working class is not a wholly reactionary force but when push comes to shove do not hesitate to defend their conditions against the bourgeoise.
Exactly, you were putting forward the notion that they were somewhat progressive in that they were willing to challenge their Bourgeois for better economic conditions.
But this in no way signifies that the Israeli working class have some form of progressive element that can be harnessed, it merely shows they want a bigger piece of the ethnic cleansing pie.

I got it mixed up with Alastairs point(below),really sorry honestly don't mean to be like that what with cheapshots and stuff. Sorry i know thats the second time now.
No problem.

Which will be used as another excuse by the Israeli state to deliver savage cuts, redundcies and investing more in military spending by using propaganda about us vs them.
Your point being?
If im interpreting this correctly you are suggesting that these actions will push the Israeli Working class to a more reactionary position?
But my point throughout is that its irrelevant how reactionary the working class of Israel become because of reactions against their campaign of ethnic cleansing.
Indeed I would suggest that we would be doing something very wrong as Socialists if we didnt make the Israeli working class mroe hostile to us because we are at odds to their material position, we are at odds to their campaign of ethnic cleansing.

What working class would you deem "progressive" I really can't think of any that are wholly progressive... not one.
I was making the point that of course they dont hold progressive class perspectives as the majority of the working class dont do but that they are reactionary in that the material positions they hold in Israel. This is of course not the case with the over whelming working class in the world.

For example the working class and pesantry in Russia were highly reactionary to the ideas of the bolsheviks at first they were on left deemed quite small, but they exploited the discontent with the Tsar, put forward the position that without socialism their can never be any solution to the poverty etc they face.
All true.
Because their material positions were not tied to the Tsar or the Bourgeois, their material positions were tied to their class interests which is in stark contrast with the Israeli context.

But again Russian workers and peasants were also reactionary to the idea of self determination of other statlets in Russia they higly favoured the Russian empire and in a way benefited from the exploitation of other nations within the empire.
Yes they did hold some reactionary notions but this did not impact on their material positions within that context which was inevitably progressive.
Also the context in which they might have just marginally benefited from Russian Imperialism is in no way comparable to a European Settler state thats whole economic footing was constructed on the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

Now I'm not being cheap and saying it was the exact same as the Israel/Palestine situation because it is far from it but they have key similarities that we must face up to and use the lessons of.
They have some marginal similarities, but nothing of great consequence.

You just said :"I never made the point that they are incapable of being a militant force in the struggle against capitalism.
No point in putting words in my mouth here"
I know what I said and what you quoted, two different sentences with two different meanings.

Then where is your solution exactly? your putting damning enditments on the cwi without putting anything forward other than boycotts as a short term "solution" which amounts to no real change other than hurting the chance of working class resistance in Israel and Palestine more.
Firstly an international blockade of Israeli produce would cripple the settler state and make it economically unviable.
Secondly I have detailed how it in no way changes the material positions of the Israeli working class.

Who gives a sh*t if he is jewish that gives him no credintials whatsoever. That in fact is one of the most petit arguments ever, considering it could be used by the fact that catholic bourgeois sided with British rule as a means of condoning it.
I think you might want to re-read my post there chief because I was making the point that a Jewish man who has detailed some of the worst cases of Israeli ethnic cleansing and is an ardant critic of the European is hardly coming from an Irish Nationalist perspective unless you can show otherwise?

Your position on Palestine is built on nationalism and what confirms that is the fact that you haven't yet put any socialist solution on the table that would agree with your position.
Thats a ridiculous assertion and one I think you actually believe.
My position is that based on a Marxist critique in defence those who face such blatant injustice but I am open to be proven wrong

Jesus. It doesn't take a scientist to point out that Israeli nationalism is built on reactionary ideas and Palestinian nationalism is built on progressive ones.That does not restrict us to taking sides when nationalist divides are built purposly by opposing bourgeoise and actively damage the hopes of any real working class movement.
This is an interesting point and one which I feel highlights perfectly one of the flaws in your arguement.
The divide in Israel and Palestine may manifest itself in the form of some sort of Nationalism from which you see.
But this is a mis-diagnosis of the situation, the divide is between a European Settler Population and an indigenous working class.
Both may wrap themselves in their respective Nationalisms but that is largely a sideshow to the point at hand.

Your talking about examining material conditions its all well and good to do that but its how you do it and the position that you come up with is key.
How I did it?
I did it from my understanding of Marxism.

Fascists examine material conditions to justify racist positions.
What are you refering to here?

Your throwing around rhetoric about oh the material conditions when your not actually really examining them.
Yes I have, repeatedly by explaining the material positions of the Israeli working class which is a European Settler population whose interests are tied to European and Western Imperialism.
While your analysis of their class position is that they are working class in the Settler State so hence must be capable of class based progressiveness, this I disagree with.

You point out why the Israeli working class is of a reactionary position and then you stop. You don't go further and point to what is to be done to reverse this, how to agitate within the Israeli working class how to build a movement. You just stop and go ah fuck'em reactionary bastards.
While I would support of course undermining the state with radicalised working class I of course accept this will only happen to a miniscule fraction and as such we cannot depend on this course of action to reverse the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
Its an uncomfortable truth for the CWI to grasp that the Israeli working class's material position is in opposition to our politics.

Care to elaborate....
I dont think it will cause huge uproar in the west, what more do you want me to expand on it?

You keep pointing out obvious things, of course the Israeli working class are complicit in a way,
None of this fudging of "in a way".
The Israeli working class actively participate and engage with the past and ongoing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

if they didn't do anything Israel wouldn't exist whole point of marxism is that the working class produce everything in society etc fair obvious stuff.
You can hardly summarise Marxism to just that the "whole point of marxism is that the working class produce everything in society".

The Israeli working class however are complicit because it serves them to be which is also obvious its more beneficial to have an Israeli capitalist state benefitting from Palestinian oppression to Israeli workers however it is further in their interests to side with Palestinians in a united cause against the Israeli government and also for palestinian workers with regards hamas.
I fundamentally disagree.
The Israeli working class's interests are tied to The Israeli Bourgeois since they have profited from the establishment of the Settler State and if the Palestinians did receive justice and the Settler State was dismantled and all capital and infrastructure that was taken off the Palestinians was returned to them then of course this would mean that the Israeli working class's economic well being would be hit drastically.

Socialists have to keep this in mind and connect the dots and agitate among both sections of the working class in the region in order to build a movement capable of putting that argument into the mainstream there.
As I stated before Socialists should try and organise and mobilise the Israeli working class as best as they can, find as many Allys as we can in an attempt to undermine the Settler State.
But as I stated before only a fool would depend on this as a solution to the context as I have highlighted before the Israeli working class material position is diametrically opposed to that of the Palestinian working class's.

I did.
Your analysis of the Israeli working class's position is fundamentally flawed because of the CWI's reluctance to accept the uncomfortable truth that Israel is a European Settler State that was built on Ethnic Cleansing and continues to ethnically cleanse and most importantly the Israeli working class are a willing and active component of this Ethnic Cleansing and Western Imperialism.

Might want to point out your position clearly in future as this :"My immediate solution is economic sanctions to make their settler state economically unviable. This would be achieved through working class pressure in western countrys to reorganise the imperial structure. This can be done through boycotts and sustained economic pressure. The key is over turning the economic bank rolling the USA and EU provides the settler state. We can learn alot from the Zionist lobbys efficiency and effectivity. "
Can be easily interpreted the way i did.
Indeed, confusion was not my intention.

A labour boycott didn't take off ever in history
Are you actually suggesting a Labour Boycott has never been successfull, EVER?

it didn't crush south africa
I never claimed it did.

how do you expect it to take off in the US and in many European countries such as Germany where the working class are quite sympathic to Israel?
I think you give Israel more credit than it is due.
From my experiences Israel is quite unpopular among the working class and in many nations at that, such blatant injustice can be hard to hide behind some form of legitimacy.
But to answer your question the key is to harness the good will among organised labour for Palestine that we see across the world, even in ICTU which is remarkably conservative by International Standards.
Through the organs of organised Labour this campaign could grow but only if it is supported by us and not lambasted by Socialists who "dont want to harm the Israeli working class".

Everyone can see that rockets are a reaction to aggression you think we think they do it for the crack of it ? seriously?
No I think the CWI and other Socialists who like to appease Liberal Hysteria over Israel like to make a mountain out of a molehill with regaurds the bottle rockets in an attempt to dance to the tune of the Liberal press by portraying themselves as "balanced".

You have to take it in the context of from the Israeli perspective that workers and unions would appeal to the soldiers in the army were not naive that we think the army would side with the unions but certain sections would come on to the side of the workers movement and while the army opposes that militarily they would of course be valid targets.
Can you re-phrase that sentence please, I dont understand what you are trying to say.

The cwi are not pacifists as much as others would like to believe it.

I never claimed they were and I dont believe they are Pacafists.
They play an active part in movements opposing the occupation, supporting strikes, agitating in the unions and workplaces against the govt. The IRSP are doing ?
What have they achieved with regaurds "the occupation" or what in reality is the continued Ethnic Cleansing of Palestinians.
And as for the rest, Economism at its best, the faint hope that if a Working Class whose material position is diametrically opposed to the Palestinians will all of a sudden turn around and give back their spoils from ethnic cleansing because they stood on a picket line or oppose the current administration in Israel.

Your taking pride in being associated with the PLO? honestly ? who are now pretty much complicite in the ethic cleansing of Palestinie seeing that they are the armed wing who are no longer armed of Fatah a corrupt bourgeois unelected right wing organisation.
Mother of god, dont take my post out of context and distort it.
I did clearly state "in the early days", you know when the PLO offered one of the only viable forms of resistance against the Israeli Settler State.
And of that I am proud.

mmm I love the smell of defeatism in the morning.
Defeatism? Its called dialectical marxism.
The Israeli Working class's material position is what is important here, not "defeatism".

which clearly won't happen as I've already pointed out and just so you don't ask me for it again :A labour boycott didn't take off ever in history, it didn't crush south africa how do you expect it to take off in the US and in many European countries such as Germany where the working class are quite sympathic to Israel?
Ive replied to that copied and pasted answer in this post already.

My comment to was to you supporting a boycott from the EU or the US which isn't your position as far as I can see so the deadly serious think is fair irrelivant.
I cant find what that point was in relation to.

Thats nice ?
Still we have to take the viable lessons of the Struggle in south africa and apply them to this conflict with regards to a boycott etc.
The contexts are very different.

This is now also irrelivant because my comment was on the premise that you supported a bourgeois boycott and an appeal to govts.Which you don't right?
Indeed.

If you think your "solution" is of a marxist approach how about you explain why?
Because I have identified the material position that the Israeli working class occupy in this context.
Once that is established then we must build our tactics around the context to establish what is the most progressive move for the Palestinian working class.

and while your at it you might wanna tell me what is your actual solution because I know you know a boycott cannot bring about any radical change such as the collapse of capitalism and the occupation.
In the given context when a continued campaign of ethnic cleansing is under way against the Palestinians my immediate goal as it should be for every socialist is to stop this ethnic cleansing immediately and the most effective way for us as Socialists is through organised Labour.
All else after this is secondary, we must be urgent.

Also seriously your cheapshots regarding my positions and my membership are ridiculously petit at best. How about you let me worry about my own life?
It was intended as a cheap shot.
I just dont believe you would have come to this position if it were not for your membership of the CWI.

That was in reply to a mistake I made about how I thought you said that the cwi were partaking and profiting in the ethnic cleasning of Palestinians. I thought you achknowleged my mistake?
And i also pointed out I didn't believe the sectarian crap concerning the IRSP and drug dealing.
Indeed I do acknowledge that it was a mistake but I was just pointing out that it was you who made the first swipe, not me, even if it was a mistake.
Not that any of this is important, its just derailing the debate at hand.

Fair enough. Neither have i. But your terminology of calling my approach an economist approach is the same as me calling your approach a nationalist one. Vicious circle and what not.
Maybe you have a point there.
But I just dont understand how my approach can be refered to as a Nationalist one.
I could call your approach to Israel Nationalist but it would hold no weight either.
But your approach is an Economist approach, its not slander its just thats what it is.

Yes and James Connolly was also strictly adament with gaining the support of the British working class against British rule which is a lesson the IRSP may have forgotten.
This is ridiculous?
Where have the IRSP ever stated that we should be gaining the support of the British Working class?
Secondly James Connolly did believe we should attempt to gain support but in no way did he place the majority of his emphasis behind this.
He clearly put the mobilisation of the Irish working class against Imperialism over placing his faith in the British Working class, testament to this was his actions.
Actions that the Economists in his day said "pushed the British Working class into the bourgeois's hands" and other such ridiculous statements that completely misunderstood James Connollys politics and Marxist Analysis.

Like i said leave the cheapshots out I'm born human remember? with the power to think for myself and all that shite.
Exactly, you are born human and everyone of us born is born with a blank slate.
It is through our context and our influences in our life that our political perspectives were shaped and I am only suggesting that if you read Marx, Lenin etc in isolation from the CWI maybe your Marxist perspective would be alot different and not a regurgitated CWI line.

However don't you think it would be quite redundant to be in an organisation if you didn't agree with key topics such as this?
Indeed I do, but im not debating that.

would you be in the IRSP if their position on the north etc was something you didn't agree with ?
Your absolutely right, but I joined the IRSP because of their Marxist Analysis, my Marxist Analysis was not shaped by IRSP rehtorric.

Also i have many disagreements with the cwi example being my position on nuclear power which i have voiced internally but i'm not petit enough to leave an organisation over such a small disagreement.
I dont suggest you should, I have my own disagreements with IRSM policy but pick your battles and all that.

This line of argument is getting old fast.
It was a petty dig but only in reaction to this, "Yeah yeah good luck with the bleeding heart story to imperialists".

[empiredestoryer]

good on them

[t.shonku]

It is nice to know that people are boycotting Israeli ships,we must also boycott Israeli business and also organize demonstration outside their embassy.:thumbup1:

[t.shonku]

Why not boycott Turkey too? Turkey is the state occupying Kurdistan and on the level of viscously terroristic states is comparable with Israel.

We could go one about various states that should be boycotted. Why choose one in particular?

Devrim

It seems that you hate ur own country :laugh:

[Rusty Shackleford]

It seems that you hate ur own country :laugh:
hey, i hate my country as well lol.

boycotting turkey right now is a politically bad idea though. at most pro-palestinian demos there are turkish flags. what better way to alienate the palestinian supporters than to say

fuck israel, and fuck turkey too. and you know what, fuck everyone that isnt radical because we are the only ones who care and have enough insight to make the right stance.

that is called a dick move. and a great way to shove people to the right.

[DunyaGongrenKomRevolyutsi]

hey, i hate my country as well lol.

boycotting turkey right now is a politically bad idea though. at most pro-palestinian demos there are turkish flags. what better way to alienate the palestinian supporters than to say

Boycotting any country is really a waste of time, occasionally you might get a worker-organised boycott (ie refusing to load arms onto cargo trains bound for a warzone), but yeah, mostly not. Usually, like the ILWU dockers strike, it was just run over workers' heads in a deal with the union bosses with the shipping companies, all that got achieved was the workers got a day off of work as far as I can tell, some Israeli goods got delayed for 24hrs.

And for the record, I have witnessed incidents involving Turkish people carrying Turkish flags and participating in 'progressive' events, directing some fairly racist comments at black people. This should not come as a surprise to those who understand just what pan-Turkism is about.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Boycotting any country is really a waste of time, occasionally you might get a worker-organised boycott (ie refusing to load arms onto cargo trains bound for a warzone), but yeah, mostly not. Usually, like the ILWU dockers strike, it was just run over workers' heads in a deal with the union bosses with the shipping companies, all that got achieved was the workers got a day off of work as far as I can tell, some Israeli goods got delayed for 24hrs.

And for the record, I have witnessed incidents involving Turkish people carrying Turkish flags and participating in 'progressive' events, directing some fairly racist comments at black people. This should not come as a surprise to those who understand just what pan-Turkism is about.
I just want to talk about the lasst point first. im not a pan-turk or whatever.

anyways. you are in london. the action happened in oakland california have you talked with the strikers form oakland?.
the workers voted on it. and yeah its only 24 hours but its building a relationship with the working class. and not shitting on any attempt to show solidarity. thats one point.

one month later, i saw the ILWU in force at a pro Oscar Grant rally and even chatted with a few of them. the ILWU is definitely a union that is doing something right now.

[DunyaGongrenKomRevolyutsi]

I just want to talk about the lasst point first. im not a pan-turk or whatever.

I knew that, but do you really know what most Turkish nationalism idolizes? Trust me, it's bad.


anyways. you are in london. the action happened in oakland california have you talked with the strikers form oakland?.
the workers voted on it. and yeah its only 24 hours but its building a relationship with the working class. and not shitting on any attempt to show solidarity. thats one point.No, although I have browsed libcom, which has members who are definitely in the ILWU, some of whom took part in that strike.


one month later, i saw the ILWU in force at a pro Oscar Grant rally and even chatted with a few of them. the ILWU is definitely a union that is doing something right now.'progressive' unions by the Leninist definition exist in London too, I have spoken with and am good friends with literally thousands of workers who are in PCS, RMT, UCU, Unite and so on. thejc.com/news/uk-news/32579/unite-votes-boycott-israel

Britain's largest trade union. So you might think they are progressive marxist-leninists, so yeah I may not have spoken with ILWU members but you can't accuse me of being ignorant of the boycott Israel project on an international level and indeed, what its connections with unions and the working-class are.

[Rusty Shackleford]

I knew that, but do you really know what most Turkish nationalism idolizes? Trust me, it's bad.
yes im aware of its foulness.


No, although I have browsed libcom, which has members who are definitely in the ILWU, some of whom took part in that strike.

'progressive' unions by the Leninist definition exist in London too, I have spoken with and am good friends with literally thousands of workers who are in PCS, RMT, UCU, Unite and so on. thejc.com/news/uk-news/32579/unite-votes-boycott-israel

Britain's largest trade union. So you might think they are progressive marxist-leninists, so yeah I may not have spoken with ILWU members but you can't accuse me of being ignorant of the boycott Israel project on an international level and indeed, what its connections with unions and the working-class are.
well, i apologize for my accusation.

[Devrim]

It seems that you hate ur own country :laugh:

It is about being a communist. Lenin said something about the main enemy being at home.


boycotting turkey right now is a politically bad idea though. at most pro-palestinian demos there are turkish flags. what better way to alienate the palestinian supporters than to say

fuck israel, and fuck turkey too. and you know what, fuck everyone that isnt radical because we are the only ones who care and have enough insight to make the right stance.

that is called a dick move. and a great way to shove people to the right.

My point was not that Turkey should be boycotted but about the pointlessness of boycotts in general.

Your point seems to be about how it is OK to organise things with fascists* without even questioning their ideas.

Devrim

*I don't know that the people with Turkish flags on any particular demo are, but I do know that in Turkey the recent pro-Palestinian demonstrations were co-organised by fascists from an organisation whose history includes pogroms against religious minorities, and would be surprised if at least some of the people on demos abroad aren't from the same group

[Rusty Shackleford]

It is about being a communist. Lenin said something about the main enemy being at home.



My point was not that Turkey should be boycotted but about the pointlessness of boycotts in general.

Your point seems to be about how it is OK to organise things with fascists* without even questioning their ideas.

Devrim

*I don't know that the people with Turkish flags on any particular demo are, but I do know that in Turkey the recent pro-Palestinian demonstrations were co-organised by fascists from an organisation whose history includes pogroms against religious minorities, and would be surprised if at least some of the people on demos abroad aren't from the same group


if they were fascists, i did not know, i dont think anyone knew or could possibly have know if they were fascists. i think the use of the turkish flags are probably because turkey spoke out against israel. you ahve the advantage of being turkish to know this part haha.

can you name the turkish fascist movements so i can keep an eye out?

[Devrim]

if they were fascists, i did not know,

I didn't say they definitely were. I would be surprised if none of them were though.


i dont think anyone knew or could possibly have know if they were fascists.

I don't think it is that surprising an idea that some of the people running around waving national flags could have been members or supporters of nationalist parties, particularly when it is known that Turkish fascists were involved in the organisation of the Flotilla and there was a delegation from one of the fascist parties on the Mavi Mamara.


can you name the turkish fascist movements so i can keep an eye out?

The two main Turkish fascist parties are the MHP (Milliyetçi Hareket Partisi) and the BBP (Büyük Birlik Partisi). Their symbols would be three white crescents on a red background, and a red rose above a crescent respectively. Anything with a picture of a wolf on it is also almost certainly connected to Turkish fascism.

Devrim

[727Goon]

Wow this is actually really cool. I'm surprised about the Cuban workers, I always thought the Cubans who came to this country were mostly reactionaries who fled Castro redistributing their wealth. Guess that's only a Florida thing :lol:

Fuck this blatant racism. Many Cubans in Florida (including my mother) are descendants of Tampa factory workers and some are descendants of people who fled the Batista regime, and some left the Island for apolitical reasons. But I bet if someone made on offhand remark about being "surprised to see a Black person at a pro-gay rally" the members of this board wouldnt let it slide.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Fuck this blatant racism. Many Cubans in Florida (including my mother) are descendants of Tampa factory workers and some are descendants of people who fled the Batista regime, and some left the Island for apolitical reasons. But I bet if someone made on offhand remark about being "surprised to see a Black person at a pro-gay rally" the members of this board wouldnt let it slide.


apparently the younger generations of cuban emigres are much less conservative.... i have no sources on this though....



anyways i think he was referring to a post i made about the federation of cuban workers(or something like that) showing solidarity. it wasnt cuban americans who did it, but cuban cubans.

[727Goon]

I think he was talking about Cuban Americans, why would he be surprised that Cubans in Cuba were supporting a left wing cause? As far as I know, most people in Cuba are socialist to some extent.

[Rusty Shackleford]

I think he was talking about Cuban Americans, why would he be surprised that Cubans in Cuba were supporting a left wing cause? As far as I know, most people in Cuba are socialist to some extent.
im thinking he mistook what was said by cubans as being said by cuban americans not cubans.

[727Goon]

Well it's pretty racist regardless.