Radicalising police.

[Wretched Of The Earth]

Are the revolutionaries in Greece taking steps to radicalise the security forces?

During vietnam, black soldiers named members of the BPP as leaders and heroes they most respected and believed in.

Many soldiers were radicalised and joined the BPP, due to the party intentionally putting out propoganda and rhetoric, aimed at turning the pawns of the state against its masters.

If soldiers and police join the movement and switch ranks, defeating the Bourgeosie and repelling a counter revolution will be far easier.

Is this being looked at?

[Sasha]

the only ppl who are radicalising the pigs are golden dawn (a fascist group).

the greece police is in no way comparable with the US in vietnam conscript army with an overt policy of (to quote southpark) "get behind the darkies".
greek police is an remnant of the old dictorial fascist regime and will never be swayed toward revolutionary struggle.

[Luisrah]

In Portugal a revolution was made with the help of the military, and as such, the revolution was bloodless. Sadly, it couldn't stand against the counter-revolution.

Radicalising the police and the army is of utmost importance, which can make the difference between victory and defeat, but will affect most the violence and blood spilled.

If the military and the police are against the workers, we'll have to fight back, and many will die, if they are with us, than the bourgeoisie will surrender/ surrender sooner, and many less will die.

[Wretched Of The Earth]

I do not see things that way comrade.

Material reality directly affects peoples outlook and politics.

Police are usually drawn from the working class, they too, will have mothers, brothers, uncles and fathers, who are losing their material security because of the failings of capitalism.

The austerity measures will only further the proleterisation of the middle class(i do not use this word, they are just workers in my view) leading to more and more people seeing things in a revolutionary way.

The state only survives through its repressive arms, ie the Army Navy and the police force.

Bringing those who serve the state into the revolutionary movement is the key factor in taking down the government.

10 Joe Glentons can create another ten, then whole regiments form insurrections.

In modern greece, the Militsry is too powerfull to overthrow with molotovs, why fight working class soldiers when you can get them to join you?

[Os Cangaceiros]

In Portugal a revolution was made with the help of the military, and as such, the revolution was bloodless. Sadly, it couldn't stand against the counter-revolution.

Radicalising the police and the army is of utmost importance, which can make the difference between victory and defeat, but will affect most the violence and blood spilled.

If the military and the police are against the workers, we'll have to fight back, and many will die, if they are with us, than the bourgeoisie will surrender/ surrender sooner, and many less will die.

Our goal is social revolution, not a military coup.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Our goal is social revolution, not a military coup.
If all that's standing between you and the state is the police/army and they come over to your side how is it a coup?

[Os Cangaceiros]

My point is that the military/police isn't a force that is of the utmost importance as far as recruitment is concerned.

[Proletarian Ultra]

A conscript military is a very different thing from a police force. Class struggle is possible within a conscript military.

Not that it's never happened within a police force (there were cases of it during the Spanish Civil War) but it's extremely rare; anyway those cases were spontaneous - trying for it is effort that could be devoted to something more productive.

[Ovi]

Those who defend the status quo with force are reactionary by definition. That doesn't mean policemen or soldiers can't refuse to obey orders in a revolutionary situation, step down from these reactionary organs and switch sides, which would be a double hit on the bourgeois. However the majority of those who continue to obey the ruling class during the popular unrest that precedes a revolution will probably continue to be reactionaries.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I think there is a big difference between working class enlisted or conscripted soldiers engaged in an imperialist war (one that most likely they have no material benefit from) and local or federal police.

While both groups (soldiers and cops) generally come from working class or other oppressed classes, the cop's job is to keep the working class in line. IMO, working class people who become cops, cease being working class just as working class people who start a business or become CEOs stop being working class - in their new position, their class interests are no longer aligned with the working class.

To put it simply, if a cop develops working class consciousness, then he quits his job. At least in the US, there is no way to be class conscious and be a cop because most of the time your job is to pull over working class people, harass working class kids, protect businesses from strikers, and so on.

The soldiers in Vietnam that developed an anti-imperialist view were stuck in that situation - they couldn't just resign. So they stayed, faced repression which led to identifying officers as their real enemy, not the Vietnamese poor that they were told were their enemy. Then after they got out, many devoted their time to anti-war organizations and anti-imperialist veterans groups who tried to give council to those still inside.

Cops are not working class, they are more like professionals - in comparison to soldiers, they are more like mercenaries than enlistees. The stronger the state is, the more protection cops get - the more wages they get (in Oakland a starting teacher gets $25-30K a year while a starting cop gets $70K - and all their training paid for while teachers have to pay for a Master's degree). So, IMO, the ruling class goes out of its way to make sure cops do have a material stake in maintaining the status quo where they are paid well and basically given a blank check to beat people and do whatever with the full backing of the state and courts.

There are many police shootings of unarmed people all the time in the US and yet only a handful of cops are put on trial and then the police get the best defenders and hardly ever get convicted. The cop who shot Oscar Grant in Oakland was allowed to leave the state and hang out for a week before charges were even filed despite numerous videos which showed the shooting. When a black man shot 4 cops in Oakland, he was not treated as well - they stormed his sister's apartment building and executed him the same day.

[this is an invasion]

The police cannot be radicalized. I wouldn't even waste my time, because it would end up with a lot of people in prison.

NEVER TALK TO POLICE


Portions of the military have potential to be radicalized.

[Wretched Of The Earth]

no cop ever earns 70 thousand a year.

A Col. in the Army earns 80 thousand, after serving for 20 years, cops are paid a starting wage of around 25~28 thousand.

[this is an invasion]

no cop ever earns 70 thousand a year.

A Col. in the Army earns 80 thousand, after serving for 20 years, cops are paid a starting wage of around 25~28 thousand.

You're joking, right?

[Wretched Of The Earth]

No, i have cops who live near where my grandmother does, one drops eggs off for my gran from the local farm up the moss, he is on 27 according to my grandad, my fathers cousins life partner is a cop and he told me he is on nearly 30 a year.

[this is an invasion]

No, i have cops who live near where my grandmother does, one drops eggs off for my gran from the local farm up the moss, he is on 27 according to my grandad, my fathers cousins life partner is a cop and he told me he is on nearly 30 a year.

Is this where you live?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayberry

[Wretched Of The Earth]

NO lol

seriously though, cops aint rich as you think, go on a police website and look at starting pay.

[this is an invasion]

I have. Average starting wage in California is 50k a year. It's higher in some cities like Oakland.

[Wretched Of The Earth]

well America must have better salaries for cops, but most nations do no pay cops more than the average person.

I think because the role cops play is so brutal and open, they are paid more, in europe, i think cops have a different mentality, most cops are just pricks on a power trip or genuinely wanted to help people, in the US, cops seem to embrace racism and class supresion, conciously and hapily.

[this is an invasion]

cops is cops dude.

It doesn't matter if they are nice individuals. The role they play is disgusting.

[Honggweilo]

In Portugal a revolution was made with the help of the military, and as such, the revolution was bloodless. Sadly, it couldn't stand against the counter-revolution.

Radicalising the police and the army is of utmost importance, which can make the difference between victory and defeat, but will affect most the violence and blood spilled.

If the military and the police are against the workers, we'll have to fight back, and many will die, if they are with us, than the bourgeoisie will surrender/ surrender sooner, and many less will die.

I know that the PCP has radical elements in the army and local police forces in their strongholds (who also serve as their own protection force, or "apoio" at the Avante festival, to keep the pigs out and have their own security force without compromising to state security forces. This also led to the accusation of the state of saying the PCP has its own "paramilitairy" branch). Where disloyal ellements in the state security forces can be radicalized, they should be, but not without extreme caution.

[Wretched Of The Earth]

yeah cops are cops.

But ignoring the fact most are not aware of their true role in society is extremely unhelpfull.

Hey, i am no fan of the police, but when we look at things in such dogmatic ways, we end up missing the point.

Yes cops are used to supress workers, but throughout history, there have been cops who have sided with strikers, defended docks from government troops and there are cops, who genuinely wanted to help people.

Rather than just shouting about cops, we should try and educate and bring them to understand their true position in society.

If they still supress us, fine, as they say "off the pigs", but while we are not in a revolutionary situation, why not try and radicalise them as we would any other group of people from the working class.

pragmatism is the call of the day

[Meridian]

There is no point in talking like 'the police' is the same in all countries.

In some countries, just the idea of police being radical is insane. In others, the police play more of a social role in certain situations. Sure, there are the occasional anti-riot job, but the majority of their time and effort are out on the street keeping people from beating each other up or whatever. The point is that many cops feel a certain sympathy for the working class. I know this for a fact because I have previously worked in the police force. However, my impression is that in many places, perhaps notably the US, the police force is extremely reactionary and even 'corrupt'.

[Jimmie Higgins]

no cop ever earns 70 thousand a year.

A Col. in the Army earns 80 thousand, after serving for 20 years, cops are paid a starting wage of around 25~28 thousand.


The Oakland Police Department invites you to join our team of talented and dedicated professionals in a highly-regarded department that is primed for your advancement. With opportunities ranging from Community Policing to K-9 and helicopter patrol, every day is fresh and exciting. And Justice pays. Starting salaries are among the highest in the state - over $70k + rich benefits package.

http://www.opdjobs.com/


In Oakland, the starting pay for police is at least $71,000 and, with overtime and other compensation, first-year officers can earn more than $100,000 a year. In New York, starting pay is about $44,000.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_15321670?nclick_check=1

So Oakland has the lowest paid teachers in California (with 30% turnover), meanwhile Oakland cops "salaries are among the highest in the state". These are the fucked up priorities the ruling class has for working class kids in the US.

Another reason cops aren't workers: Oakland is threatening to lay-off 200 cops. 200 layoffs is generally a bad thing for the working class, in this case, it should be cause to celebrate.

[AK]

Let's sum up the thread:
Police and soldiers are bad if they side with the bourgeoisie. Police and soldiers are good if they side with the workers (however difficult this goal may be to attain).

[Slavoj Zizzle]

Every revolutionary situation is different. Maybe in a country like the Netherlands or something the police can be turned to the side of the proletariat, but in Greece it's never going to happen. Ever since the end of Military Junta in 1974, the police have become defanged because they are seen as a remnant of the old totalitarian order. You'll be hard pressed to find a Greek person who supports the police the way people do in the United States for example, and most likely the police aren't even necessary for a revolution. Anti-police sentiment is so strong the government would be limited in using them for fear of spreading the revolution even more, and they are pretty powerless.

Oh and dividing the working class is an old and effective tactic of the ruling class, saying "police have families too, they are just misled workers" is buying right into that. If you make your bed you have to sleep in it, and police have made their bed by working for the state to harass and oppress the working class.

[Raúl Duke]

Are the revolutionaries in Greece taking steps to radicalise the security forces?

During vietnam, black soldiers named members of the BPP as leaders and heroes they most respected and believed in.

Many soldiers were radicalised and joined the BPP, due to the party intentionally putting out propoganda and rhetoric, aimed at turning the pawns of the state against its masters.

If soldiers and police join the movement and switch ranks, defeating the Bourgeosie and repelling a counter revolution will be far easier.

Is this being looked at?

Umm...
Why include police alongside soldiers?

Soldiers could be radicalized but now I'm at doubt (there's the issue about conscripts and professional career soldiers; conscripts could be radicalized but I doubt professional soldiers can and especially not the officer corps), but police (who are all career police officers) may never be substantially radicalized.


but while we are not in a revolutionary situation, why not try and radicalise them as we would any other group of people from the working class.

It's a waste of time that could have been spent radicalizing more open sections of the population.

[Jimmie Higgins]

It's a waste of time that could have been spent radicalizing more open sections of the population.Yes, I think this is the important thin to keep in mind.

If someone wants to do some easy appeals to the police as individuals during a upheaval sort of situation and put us signs saying workers are not the enemy and only want to defend themselves, then I think at the very least this would be a propaganda tool - most police would ignore this and in that case, out signs just show other people which side the cops really are on. If a handful of individual police turn traitor and leave their posts, then that's just a bonus. But again, to make this a main focus of organizing would be a waste of time for the most part.

But the police as an organization and institution have to be smashed and abolished by the working class. The police are not there to defend the public they exist to uphold a specific capitalist status quo.

[jake williams]

Police forces, at least in North America, are mostly staffed by the working class and the petty bourgeoisie. Especially working class youth who decide to become police officers usually do so for two or three reasons: a) it's a job with a comfortable salary and job security, that they can actually get; b) they honestly believe that police are a public service that help mediate real problems in communities; c) it gives them a level of power and authority that members of the working class rarely get, which is enticing. I think anyone sensible should be sympathetic for at very least a) and b), even if clearly b) is generally misinformed. The working class is, in general, misinformed about a whole lot.

That said, police forces have proven quite capable as ideological apparatuses, directed in particular at their employees, and police officers quite quickly internalize the ideology of a violent, racist state.

Police (and soldiers) are certainly capable of being radicalized, of being ideologically awakened (as, again, a lot of them ultimately are working class people doing what they believe helps their communities) - but they can only do so if they have a strong working class movement behind them. The working class, not the police, are capable of leading a progressive revolution. Police can and will join it, but only insofar as the working class movement is powerful enough to give them somewhere to go.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Police (and soldiers) are certainly capable of being radicalized, of being ideologically awakened (as, again, a lot of them ultimately are working class people doing what they believe helps their communities) - but they can only do so if they have a strong working class movement behind them. The working class, not the police, are capable of leading a progressive revolution. Police can and will join it, but only insofar as the working class movement is powerful enough to give them somewhere to go.Good point. The bold section is really the key, without that anything else is moot when it comes to any cop potentially being convinced to support workers.

It's also a good point that many working class people do have illusions in the cops. In general many working class people (not just the ones that become cops) are sympathetic to the police if only because there is just so much theft and random violence from people driven crazy by whatever who have been left to rot on the streets. So we shouldn't just brush-off any sincere concern people have about crime -- as I often do myself as a reaction to all the sensationalized BS about crime on TV. (However, if someone is being racist and promoting myths and hysteria about crime, that racism should be called out.) Crime is sensationalized in the media and popular myths about crime are used by the ruling class to demonize poor people (and especially male youth from scapegoated minority ethnic groups) but it is also a reality that can't be ignored. So it's also important to note and explain where crime really comes from in class societies and what really drives it (as opposed to the media myths of rampant sociopaths and "bed people" as well as the racism that goes along with these myths) and, finally, that police do absolutely jack shit to actually prevent crime. At best the react to it, so cops do little to actually help working class people defend themselves.

On the other hand, groups in the US like the Black Panthers and the Young Lords and many other groups have been able to organize communities, provide some help for hardcore substance addicts, provide an alternative way to self-defend communities than gangs, helped people stand up to crooked landlords (a crime that isn't a crime according to capitalism) and so on. These king of things as well as good jobs, decent housing, and ultimately a system where people have control over their own lives and are not driven to drink-away stress or fall into sociopath-like despair is what can really get rid of crime. Not, the ruling class answer: more cops, more guns, more cars, helicopters, curfews, etc.

Police do not get at the root of crime in modern society and they were never intended to. They are there to enforce a particular order, but it's that order and the system they defend that is the actual source of most crime in society.

[stella2010]

Are the revolutionaries in Greece taking steps to radicalise the security forces?

During vietnam, black soldiers named members of the BPP as leaders and heroes they most respected and believed in.

Many soldiers were radicalised and joined the BPP, due to the party intentionally putting out propoganda and rhetoric, aimed at turning the pawns of the state against its masters.

If soldiers and police join the movement and switch ranks, defeating the Bourgeosie and repelling a counter revolution will be far easier.

Is this being looked at?



Lets hope so.

FORCE ONLY

[Ocean Seal]

Lets see. There was once a time when the police participated in strikes. One in the city of Boston sent criminals on a looting spree. The bourgeoisie were so scared that they gave them what they wanted. Now the bourgeoisie virtually cater to the whim of the police. They are a key element in revolution. Difficult to attain, but very helpful indeed.

I would also like to make a second point. The working class needs the cops more than the bourgeoisie in some aspects. While a rich person can buy protection a working class person cannot. Therefore, as of now the police (however imperfect they may be) are the only protection that the workers have.

[Ele'ill]

There is no point in talking like 'the police' is the same in all countries.

In some countries, just the idea of police being radical is insane. In others, the police play more of a social role in certain situations. Sure, there are the occasional anti-riot job, but the majority of their time and effort are out on the street keeping people from beating each other up or whatever. The point is that many cops feel a certain sympathy for the working class. I know this for a fact because I have previously worked in the police force. However, my impression is that in many places, perhaps notably the US, the police force is extremely reactionary and even 'corrupt'.


So you're an ex cop, eh?

I agree with your post.

[727Goon]

Why?

[Ocean Seal]

So you're an ex cop, eh?

I agree with your post.
Even in the United States the police seem to support the labor element in some cases. Although they are highly involved in the riot control job many of them are often ideologically on the side of the workers.

[Ele'ill]

Even in the United States the police seem to support the labor element in some cases. Although they are highly involved in the riot control job many of them are often ideologically on the side of the workers.


My post wasn't sarcasm. I agreed with their post.

[727Goon]

Look, if the working class is ever radicalized then we can worry about radicalizing the fucking police force. In greece, from everything I've heard, the police force are pretty much remnants from the military dictatorship. In the US, the left has enough problems getting workers to radicalize to worry about the police for Christs sake.

[Stephen Colbert]

Look, if the working class is ever radicalized then we can worry about radicalizing the fucking police force. In greece, from everything I've heard, the police force are pretty much remnants from the military dictatorship. In the US, the left has enough problems getting workers to radicalize to worry about the police for Christs sake.

True. Not only do we have the Christian right out witch hunting, a massive corporate advertising machine, a cynical public, a semi-retarded public, and a shitty economy-- but we are also "radicals", outside of the political norm.

I enjoy a challenge, however :cool:

[Delenda Carthago]

here,greek anarchists are trying to radicalise the cops view on the class explortation and the whole historical process of the proletariat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1lX0-7vJr4

[Gravedigger01]

My view is that many police have a class conscience but they remove themselves from their work so they can do there job without getting stuck in a moral dilemma. This is like what doctors do to not become depressed about the amount of deaths they see or what the American soldiers did in Vietnam (they called local Vietnamese "Gooks" to dehumanise them)

Soldiers, Social Workers and pretty much all jobs dealing with other people have to dehumanise the people thyat they work with so that they can get on with there jobs professionally without getting into a moral dilemma of whether what they are doing is right. I'de imagine police are the same.

Police tend to be quite poorly paid (with the exception of Oakland , California apparently). Here in Ireland somebody joining the Gardaí would get a starting wage of 24,500 euro which wouldn't be a lot considering the cost of living over here. The majority of Gardaí would live in working class area's and would see the disparity of wealth in their line of duty . If we could explain to them the benefits of Socialism for their children , families and the people that see on a regular basis then they could be swayed.

Note:My figures of the Gardaí wages are 4 years old but since then the recesiion has Ireland badly and if anything I imagine the Garda wages for new recruits have fallen slightly