The problem of slums in India

[Mahatma Gandhi]

Greetings Comrades!

I saw a thread on the Indian govt. getting rid of slums. People who oppose this move . . . I have a doubt. Since slums are horrible places, why should this be a problem? Would it not be better if the masses lived in better conditions?

Surely, if the slums are being removed, then those poor people will be moved to places where there are better standards of living? Isn't that good? Isn't that what socialists want - better conditions for the working class poor?

Then why do people protest this move? Am I missing something here?

[Mahatma Gandhi]

One more thing I'd like to add: The abuse of the poor in India has nothing to do with the system of governance or any of those things.

It is hardly a capitalism vs communism thing. It boils downs to Hindu culture, basically. Hindus, for centuries upon centuries, have abused the poor and adored the rich; their way of life, their religion, their books, in short, everything 'Hindu' revolves around that principle. So I am not sure this is an economic or political problem.

This hatred of the poor is mostly cultural, which is why Hindus make wonderful slaves to capitalism. They complement each other.

[Bud Struggle]

It is hardly a capitalism vs communism thing. It boils downs to Hindu culture, basically. Hindus, for centuries upon centuries, have abused the poor and adored the rich;

Lucky for us it's not like that in the Western world! :rolleyes:

[dawt]

Surely, if the slums are being removed, then those poor people will be moved to places where there are better standards of living?So where are you suggesting they're being moved? Are you saying the government suddenly is going to supply them with free appartments?

Nope. They're just going to be thrown out of the city or into prisons. What happens then, is up to them. The government and capitalists don't give a shit about whether they live or not, or under which horrible conditions, just as long as they do it some place else.:mad:

[Leonid Brozhnev]

One slum developer said they will build Apartments for the people they relocate, but they can only do it on the 'cleared land'. That means they will have to destroy part of the Slums first before they can even start relocation. Now, call me crazy... but surely the whole point of a real 'relocation' is to build their new homes FIRST before you start knocking down their old homes. Then what about the rent? They are going to knock down peoples homes, make them homeless for a while, cram them into a shitty Apartment and then CHARGE then for the privilege? I doubt all the people who live in the slum currently will make it into these new apartments. The developers need to maximize profits so the less land they take up caring for peasants the better.

[Bud Struggle]

Exactly. Slums--who cares?

They want the land.

[Jazzratt]

[Bollocks about Hindu culture this & that] ...I am not sure this is an economic or political problem.
That's because you're stupid and don't know much.

[#FF0000]

Greetings Comrades!

I saw a thread on the Indian govt. getting rid of slums. People who oppose this move . . . I have a doubt. Since slums are horrible places, why should this be a problem? Would it not be better if the masses lived in better conditions?

Surely, if the slums are being removed, then those poor people will be moved to places where there are better standards of living? Isn't that good? Isn't that what socialists want - better conditions for the working class poor?

Then why do people protest this move? Am I missing something here?

People protest bulldozing slums because being homeless is worse than living in a slum.

EDIT: Also, if they do move the people into different neighborhoods, even slightly better ones with less poverty, it's still severing community ties and dropping very poor people into neighborhoods that probably won't welcome them, leading to a neat thing called "social atomization". That is a fancy word for people get really lonely and don't feel any sense of belonging whatsoever in their new homes. This is part of the reason crime rates are falling in American cities and rising in the suburbs. I'm not gonna call you stupid for not thinking of this bit, though, since it's not something you'd know unless you read into it.

EDIT 2: Nitpicking, but socialists don't just want improved conditions for the working class. We want working class power and control over the means of production.

EDIT 3: I'm going to be nice from now on.

[Mahatma Gandhi]

It is just a topic for polite discussion. Why is it people resort to abuse all at once? Are people here permanently angry or something?:confused:

All I am saying is: capitalists attack us because they say we rely too much on economic reductionism. Life has many shades; we need to have an integral view.

p.s.
I am not going to call anyone stupid in retaliation (even though it is probably true).

[#FF0000]

It is just a topic for polite discussion. Why is it people resort to abuse all at once? Are people here permanently angry or something?:confused:

Well, because the question is an incredibly naive one, which isn't bad in itself. You just have a tendency to be condescending and say the most ignorant things with incredible unfounded confidence.


All I am saying is: capitalists attack us because they say we rely too much on economic reductionism. Life has many shades; we need to have an integral view.

Class is the driving force behind history but it's not the only factor at play. People who think it's 100% about economics, Marxist or otherwise, are wrong.

[Mahatma Gandhi]

People protest bulldozing slums because being homeless is worse than living in a slum.

EDIT: Also, if they do move the people into different neighborhoods, even slightly better ones with less poverty, it's still severing community ties and dropping very poor people into neighborhoods that probably won't welcome them, leading to a neat thing called "social atomization". That is a fancy word for people get really lonely and don't feel any sense of belonging whatsoever in their new homes. This is part of the reason crime rates are falling in American cities and rising in the suburbs. I'm not gonna call you stupid for not thinking of this bit, though, since it's not something you'd know unless you read into it.

Good point.


EDIT 2: Nitpicking, but socialists don't just want improved conditions for the working class. We want working class power and control over the means of production.

That's the final step. In the meantime, reforms are necessary at least for the sake of workers.


EDIT 3: I'm going to be nice from now on.

For how long? That's the important question.;)

[Mahatma Gandhi]

Well, because the question is an incredibly naive one, which isn't bad in itself. You just have a tendency to be condescending and say the most ignorant things with incredible unfounded confidence.

I am autistic.


Class is the driving force behind history but it's not the only factor at play. People who think it's 100% about economics, Marxist or otherwise, are wrong.

I don't want to digress, but most people do. And it is annoying. Some people believe that the ruling class invented homophobia and pretty much every evil, and that workers are just innocent little victims. Does all this sound like class analysis to you? It sounds more like a conspiracy theory.

[Ele'ill]

I am autistic.

We have no way to verify this, obviously, regardless nobody here should be personally attacking you. If this is your posting style and I'm ok with it :thumbup1:

A long time ago on here during an intense debate about the environment I was accused of being a primitivist. This wasn't correct and I explained over and over again that I was a tree and for whatever reason people didn't believe me and became more hostile when I mentioned I had also been a cheetah and killer whale in a few of my previous lives.

Just shrug it off.






I don't want to digress, but most people do. And it is annoying. Some people believe that the ruling class invented homophobia and pretty much every evil, and that workers are just innocent little victims. Does all this sound like class analysis to you? It sounds more like a conspiracy theory.

We would need to examine each individual claim of what the ruling class 'invented'. Everyone is influenced by media propaganda but the ones that suffer from it the most are often the lower class working poor because their conditions are already shite.

This would be an extremely detail oriented conversation and might require a new thread.

[Zanthorus]

Class is the driving force behind history.

The fact that "the [written] history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles" doesn't imply that class is the driving force behind history. The driving process behind history is human self-creation in the material productive process. This production process has to go through a period of self-estrangement, the chief manifestation of which is the emergence of social classes within the social organisation of labour. The driving force behind history (Or at least "the prehistory of human society") is the fact that human social powers appear to us as an alien force.

[Barry Lyndon]

I am autistic.

I am autistic as well, but I don't write condescending, ignorant, and naive posts like yours. I actually have bothered to learn what Marxism is, which judging by what you have written so far, you haven't. That excuse doesn't cut it. :mad:

[Mahatma Gandhi]

I am autistic as well, but I don't write condescending, ignorant, and naive posts like yours. I actually have bothered to learn what Marxism is, which judging by what you have written so far, you haven't. That excuse doesn't cut it. :mad:

If I do not know I am being condescending, am I being condescending? See, that's the problem with my autism. Also, as an autistic person yourself, you ought to have supported me at all costs, which you failed to do. And you call yourself autistic?:mad:

[t.shonku]

Originally posted by Mahatma Gandhi
Greetings Comrades!

I saw a thread on the Indian govt. getting rid of slums. People who oppose this move . . . I have a doubt. Since slums are horrible places, why should this be a problem? Would it not be better if the masses lived in better conditions?

Surely, if the slums are being removed, then those poor people will be moved to places where there are better standards of living? Isn't that good? Isn't that what socialists want - better conditions for the working class poor?

Then why do people protest this move? Am I missing something here? You smell very imperialistic.Besides did you people knew that Gandhi basically was a sellout.He allowed the British to hang socialist revolutionary Bhagat Singh bcoz.For Gandhi round table conference with the British was more important.

Besides don't open your mouth without knowing the ground reality of India.In India whenever a slum is steam rolled over.A fancy looking skyscraper apartment grows there and the slum dwellers get noting but foot path to sleep on.The law in India doesn't recognize the slum dwellers as the real owner of a land so according to the law they are not entitled for compensation.Now you get it you hypocrite

Besides I don’t give a dam to what imperialist westerners think when you see slums in India on a holiday visit.Your opinions doesn’t count.

[Mahatma Gandhi]

You smell very imperialistic.

Thanks . . . must be the shampoo.


Besides did you people knew that Gandhi basically was a sellout.He allowed the British to hang socialist revolutionary Bhagat Singh bcoz.For Gandhi round table conference with the British was more important.
.

You hate Gandhi, yet the very same Gandhi would have protested this move (to destroy slums) had he been alive today. Ironic, isn't it?

[AK]

If I do not know I am being condescending, am I being condescending? See, that's the problem with my autism. Also, as an autistic person yourself, you ought to have supported me at all costs, which you failed to do. And you call yourself autistic?:mad:
This isn't a forum specifically for those who are affected by Autism. You seemed perfectly capable of holding discussion beforehand. It is a forum dedicated to discussion relating to revolutionary leftist ideologies.

[AK]

Thanks . . . must be the shampoo.
:laugh: :thumbup1:


You hate Gandhi, yet the very same Gandhi would have protested this move (to destroy slums) had he been alive today. Ironic, isn't it?
Protested. That's all he would have done.

[Jazzratt]

If I do not know I am being condescending, am I being condescending? See, that's the problem with my autism. Also, as an autistic person yourself, you ought to have supported me at all costs, which you failed to do. And you call yourself autistic?:mad:
I don't favour people who happen to have the same neurology as me and I'm certainly not about to defend any old random autistic-spectrum "sufferer" at all costs; I doubt Barry would either. It doesn't place us at any particular point on the autistic spectrum that we don't though so you can blow your "call yourself autistic" comment out your arse.


You hate Gandhi, yet the very same Gandhi would have protested this move (to destroy slums) had he been alive today. Ironic, isn't it?
I hate the British National Party but they and their supporters oppose the war in Iraq. Is that ironic?

[Mahatma Gandhi]

I don't favour people who happen to have the same neurology as me and I'm certainly not about to defend any old random autistic-spectrum "sufferer" at all costs;

A worker could say: I don't favor workers who happen to have the same problem as me, and I am certainly not about to defend any random working class guy in a faraway country.


I hate the British National Party but they and their supporters oppose the war in Iraq. Is that ironic?

Do not conflate two very different matters.

[Jazzratt]

A worker could say: I don't favor workers who happen to have the same problem as me, and I am certainly not about to defend any random working class guy in a faraway country.



Do not conflate two very different matters.

It's like you're replying to you own post. Beautiful.

[Mahatma Gandhi]

It's like you're replying to you own post. Beautiful.

The usual cop-out, I guess. Glad you've conceded this point, though.

[Mahatma Gandhi]

This isn't a forum specifically for those who are affected by Autism. You seemed perfectly capable of holding discussion beforehand. It is a forum dedicated to discussion relating to revolutionary leftist ideologies.

I know. But since someone specifically wondered why I post the way I do, I had to tell them about my condition. Besides, if otherwise healthy people could post like this (abusing people every so often), would you blame us auties for reacting the way we do?

[Jazzratt]

The usual cop-out, I guess. Glad you've conceded this point, though.
Look numbnuts, you said something fucking stupid about how autistics have to stick together and then conflated that with class solidarity moiments before you had the temerity to tell me not to conflate two disparate things. I thought that was absolutely magical.

The point I was driving at though is that just because we think Gandhi was a complete waste of time and some of us may even hate him doesn't mean that he wouldn't agree with us on some points. The thing is that it's neither ironic nor an illustartion of why our views on him should change; I don't keep hold of a stopped clock because it tells me the correct time twice a day.

[The Red Next Door]

It is just a topic for polite discussion. Why is it people resort to abuse all at once? Are people here permanently angry or something?:confused:

All I am saying is: capitalists attack us because they say we rely too much on economic reductionism. Life has many shades; we need to have an integral view.

p.s.
I am not going to call anyone stupid in retaliation (even though it is probably true).

No, It because are being very naive about the issues and do not realize that the problems that go on in your country, are the same everywhere else including the United States. Yes, first world countries have third world problems and here in America, you have third world problems. You do not have to go to third world countries to experience the problems, we have them in the first world.

[The Red Next Door]

I know. But since someone specifically wondered why I post the way I do, I had to tell them about my condition. Besides, if otherwise healthy people could post like this (abusing people every so often), would you blame us auties for reacting the way we do?

As a person with autism, I find it offensive that, you will even use being austic as an excuse for your stupidity, on issues. This why people are being abusive.

EDIT: ITS LIKE SAYING THAT AUTISTICS ARE STUPID BY THE WAY. AUSTISM DOES NOT EQUAL STUPID.

[The Red Next Door]

And you call yourself autistic?:mad:

OH SHUT UP:mad:. YOU HAVE SOME NERVES SAYING THAT.