More nationalisation in venezuela

[REDSOX]

The private bank Banco federal has been confiscated by the chavez government due to irregularities such as lack of liquidity etc. The owner of the bank has suttled off to miami surprise surprise. Chavez also nationalised a auto parts company called auto seat venezuela which produces parts for the car industry.

Also an arrest warrant has gone out from the attorney general to arrest the owner of globovision guillermo zuloaga who is wanted on charges of usury and conspiracy. Looks like chavez is going after the bourgeoisie and a good thing too

[Lulznet]

Shouldn't Workers be given control and not the government? :mad:

[REDSOX]

The auto company is to be placed under workers management and control. Sorry i did not mention that

[dawt]

Still, the percentage of Venezuelan workers employed by foreign corporations has slightly risen since Chavez came to power. Can't properly source my statement atm, but I think it was mentioned in the documentary Communa en Construcción.

[Lulznet]

The auto company is to be placed under workers management and control. Sorry i did not mention that


Good... The idea of nationalization and not placing something under workers control is a rather scary thought due to the fact that it just allows a new class to come into place. ;)

Glad to see theres something good coming out of Venezuela though.

[pranabjyoti]

I have repeatedly asked the question about how workers control can manage scientific and technical progress, but yet to get a proper reply.

[Lulznet]

I have repeatedly asked the question about how workers control can manage scientific and technical progress, but yet to get a proper reply.

Scientists and technicians would manage this progress. :cool:

[REDSOX]

Workers self management is certainly increasingly on the agenda. It is important though to maintain the nationalised character of an enterprise. The slogan should be The state owns, the workers manage hopefully in a planned economy preferably.

[vyborg]

the real point here is confiscation...if Chavez nationalized without compensation, this is a very good step forward.

As for workers' management. if the workers manage the single plant or firm, this is not socialism and will end badly (a coop or something like this). any firm or plant in a modern economy is connected to hundreds of others. you can only control them as a whole (ie as a class).

Of course you must start with one or ten or fifty firms, plants etc, but if workers' control doesnt develop in a system of central and social planning, it is doomed.

of course we all support workers of Zanon etc, but this is not socialism, and these factories can be isolated from the rest of the economy.

[pranabjyoti]

Scientists and technicians would manage this progress. :cool:
Well, then actually the question will rise how workers will use the progress? Scientists and technocrats can just make the production process improved, but in a capitalists society, this improvements result in cutting in the number of jobs and increased working hours. As for example, if for production of a product, say one metric ton of steel needs 1000 working hours. Then, when with improved technologies, that will be leveled down 500 working hours, does that mean same amount of jobs will be related to production of steel. In a capitalist economy, that will result in cutting the number of jobs in the steel production sector to half.
Some leftists advocate "labor intensive" (read it old, backward) production processes because that will create "more jobs". Though they call themselves "leftists", but actually they are thinking in the terms of capitalism, in which working hours are fixed and that can not be altered. I want to know how much workers, who are now controlling the industries think different.
After post revolution period, some impressive gains in science and technology has been achieved in USSR. I am also curious to know about the advancement of science and technology in Venezuela at present.

[Uppercut]

The slogan should be The state owns, the workers manage hopefully in a planned economy preferably.

Exactly! I honestly don't see a big difference between nationalization with elected management and administration and collective self-management. Large scale enterprises can be nationalized in order to plan an important section of the economy from a national viewpoint This helps to maintain consistency and rationality in distribution.

Although I'm unsure if it really needs to be a slogan, per se.

[REDSOX]

Banco federal like other private banks has been confiscated. No compensation for crooks. As for the auto part company well that was semi idle and the government has nationalised but i am not sure if with compensation or not. The auto parts company will be 100% nationalised under workers control and i believe the workers are pretty chuffed about it. This is not a co-op. By the way i am not saying that the slogan The state owns the workers manage should be on every protest banner but it is i believe an appropriate slogan to use

[Q]

Well, then actually the question will rise how workers will use the progress? Scientists and technocrats can just make the production process improved, but in a capitalists society, this improvements result in cutting in the number of jobs and increased working hours. As for example, if for production of a product, say one metric ton of steel needs 1000 working hours. Then, when with improved technologies, that will be leveled down 500 working hours, does that mean same amount of jobs will be related to production of steel. In a capitalist economy, that will result in cutting the number of jobs in the steel production sector to half.
In a socialist economy it will mean a shorter working week and most likely new and innovative forms of production not conceived about within capitalism.

[pranabjyoti]

In a socialist economy it will mean a shorter working week and most likely new and innovative forms of production not conceived about within capitalism.
I agree totally with you in this regard. Therefore, my question is that are the scientific and technical progresses are used in the said manner in Venezuela? So far, there is no proper answer.
Moreover, as Lulznet and other supporters of Bolivarian revolution are reporting, the scientists and technicians are taking care of the progress, I am curious what progress has been achieved so far? The achievement of USSR during Stalin in this regard was pretty impressive.

[Luisrah]

I agree totally with you in this regard. Therefore, my question is that are the scientific and technical progresses are used in the said manner in Venezuela? So far, there is no proper answer.
Moreover, as Lulznet and other supporters of Bolivarian revolution are reporting, the scientists and technicians are taking care of the progress, I am curious what progress has been achieved so far? The achievement of USSR during Stalin in this regard was pretty impressive.

The work day in Venezuela has come from 8 hours to 6 hours.

The Source is in Portuguese, sorry http://tirem-as-maos-da-venezuela.blogs.sapo.pt/9409.html

''O salário mínimo na Venezuela será aumentado em 20 por cento, atingindo os 286 dólares (215 euros) e a jornada de trabalho passa de oito para seis horas diárias, anunciou o Presidente Hugo Chávez na segunda-feira.''

The minimum salary in Venezuela will rise in 20%, making it 286 dollars (215 euros) and the work day will go from eight to six daily hours, said the President Hugo Chávez on Monday''

They are also making a sort of ticket which allows workers to buy food, and in the end, the minimum salary is 350 euros (465 euros).


As you can see, as much as capitalism dislikes it, it is possible to have shorter work hours, raise the salaries, and still having a very prosperous economy.

[pranabjyoti]

The work day in Venezuela has come from 8 hours to 6 hours.

The Source is in Portuguese, sorry http://tirem-as-maos-da-venezuela.blogs.sapo.pt/9409.html

''O salário mínimo na Venezuela será aumentado em 20 por cento, atingindo os 286 dólares (215 euros) e a jornada de trabalho passa de oito para seis horas diárias, anunciou o Presidente Hugo Chávez na segunda-feira.''

The minimum salary in Venezuela will rise in 20%, making it 286 dollars (215 euros) and the work day will go from eight to six daily hours, said the President Hugo Chávez on Monday''

They are also making a sort of ticket which allows workers to buy food, and in the end, the minimum salary is 350 euros (465 euros).


As you can see, as much as capitalism dislikes it, it is possible to have shorter work hours, raise the salaries, and still having a very prosperous economy.
It's really good and every leftist should appreciate that. But, there are problems with non-worker portion of the general public. The steps taken should certainly benefit workers related to organized sector, but what about the increase in actual income and lifestyle of the "poor" petty-bourgeoisie section. I don't have any idea about what portion of the population of Venezuela is constituted by those "poor' petty-bourgeoisie i.e. small peasants, shop keepers, independent service providers etc.
It's a well proved historical fact that improvement in life standard of this "poor people" is very very hard, actually impossible without joining them with modern production i.e. with putting them into the working class. If there isn't something done about that, feeling of anger among this people may rise against workers, who are comparatively well paid and have a much better life standard. Reactionaries may use this anger to provoke a "popular" uprising against Chavez.
I am saying so based on my experience in my own country India. Here, anti-worker feeling among this so-called "poor people" is very prominent and that's why there was no REAL workers struggle had been organized in India for decades.