The Early-Era National Socialism. (Drexler and Co. circa 1908)

[ReinoTheProle]

Yeah discussions about the phenomenon which was ruined by bitter painter from Breslau. Some elements stayed to Nazi Regime, like Kraft Durch Freude (without the antisemitism ofc.)

[Rjevan]

Hitler didn't ruin the DAP (German Workers' Party), they complemented each other. This party was ruined for the working class from the very beginning. In true fascist manner it tried to appeal to the reactionary starta of the working class and to the petty-bourgeoisie by populist, racist and nationalist promises and propaganda, aimed at weakening the socialist movement and the "Jewish-communist plague". A short overview of the early members of the DAP speaks for itself:

Anton Drexler was a convinced anti-semite and anti-communist (e.g. he stated that Bolshevism was "a Jewish fraud") and was always seeking contact to nationalist groups. The DAP was founded by him and Karl Harrer on advice by his mentor Dr. Paul Tafel - chairman of the racist, nationalist and imperialist Alldeutscher Verband (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alldeutscher_Verband) as well as board member of the Bavarian Association of Industrialists...

Karl Harrer was a leading member of the infamous Thule Society and was instructed to recruit and influence members of the working class with nationalist and racist views, a task which he believed could be fulfilled best by making the DAP into a copy of the Thule Society (which later got him into conflict with Hitler who wanted it to be a mass party and not a secret society).

Gottfried Feder, though propagating some anti-capitalist ideas (of course against "Jewish finance capitalism"), was a racist and convinced anti-semite who was a member of the Deutschvölkischer Schutz und Trutzbund (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutschv%C3%B6lkischer_Schutz_und_Trutzbund). He is also said to have been a member of the Thule Society.

Finally we have Dietrich Eckart, who holds the record: member of the Thule Society, of the volkish Fichte Bund and of the Deutschvölkischer Schutz und Trutzbund. He massively influenced the NSDAP ideology and Hitler personally - who later hailed Eckart as his mentor and a martyr of national socialism. As "Germanic pagan" he felt it was his duty to reveal that the Jewish and Christain religion are connected to "Jewish Bolshevism" and essentially are the same, leading to an essay with the title: "Bolshevism from Moses to Lenin."

Other infamous early members of the DAP were people like Alfred Rosenberg and Ernst Röhm.

[ComradeOm]

Rjevan got there first but I'd be quite interested in hearing just what it was about the early DAP that the OP feels was "ruined" by Hitler

[ReinoTheProle]

I still prefer that system over some liberal capitalism we are facing nowadays. At least they had an ethos, and were, what they seemed, no masquerading behind " charity organizations " or " carbon tax ". All that to strenghen corporations, weakening individuals. It's called consolidation.

[ReinoTheProle]

Gottfried Feder, though propagating some anti-capitalist ideas (of course against "Jewish finance capitalism"), was a racist and convinced anti-semite





Well can you decipher why he was an antisemite and an racist? He genuinely thought that Jews were an epitome of capitalism. He had seen, like Hitler, the class divitation of "rich Jews and poor Germans ", which of course was not the reality. He just assumed. So, in many ways, those people were like some bored middle-class wanksta, who wears Che Guevara shirt, and THINKS he understand Bakunin, Nietzche and such. They just were little bit more extreme. :)

[ComradeOm]

I still prefer that system over some liberal capitalism we are facing nowadays. At least they had an ethos, and were, what they seemed, no masquerading behind " charity organizations " or " carbon tax ". All that to strenghen corporations, weakening individuals. It's called consolidation.You prefer this anti-semitic, rabidly anti-communist, nationalist ideology to today's "liberal capitalism"?


They just were little bit more extremeAnd anti-semitic :glare:

[ReinoTheProle]

You prefer this anti-semitic, rabidly anti-communist, nationalist ideology to today's "liberal capitalism"?

And anti-semitic :glare:


1. As i said, hell yes. Perhaps you will as well, when we live in debris and eat shit while those who were in top live in tall spires. How did this happen, we had Facebook!


2. I said they were, numerous times. There is a slight possibility you ignored that to strike your last, witty phrase. They hated the Jews, that's a wrap.

[ComradeOm]

1. As i said, hell yes. Perhaps you will as well, when we live in debris and eat shit while those who were in top live in tall spires. How did this happen, we had Facebook!I think it will be some time before I support fascists. Personally I prefer a working class solution to those who “live in tall spires”. And there’s never been anything working class about the DAP or fascism


2. I said they were, numerous times. There is a slight possibility you ignored that to strike your last, witty phrase. They hated the Jews, that's a wrap.No, that's not a wrap. You accept their anti-semitism as if it was a trivial but excusable quirk almost comparable to wearing a "Che Guevara shirt". Anti-semitism was a core component of the DAP's programme from the beginning and it cannot simply be dismissed or handwaved away

[ReinoTheProle]

I think it will be some time before I support fascists. Personally I prefer a working class solution to those who “live in tall spires”. And there’s never been anything working class about the DAP or fascism

No, that's not a wrap. You accept their anti-semitism as if it was a trivial but excusable quirk almost comparable to wearing a "Che Guevara shirt". Anti-semitism was a core component of the DAP's programme from the beginning and it cannot simply be dismissed or handwaved away

1. You really should interpret the purpose of fascism, to create an proletariat, autroritarian state with bourgouise means, at least it has ment that.

2. Yeah, i accept ignorance as an relative igrorance with a tad of hate mixed up. If you cant understand my point, i write it once again:

Antisemitism is wrong

False likelihood of socialism in order to raise some cooliness-factor is wrong.

Upper class living in luxury while 99,9 % lives in shit in coming years is wrong, and that's solely on liberal capitalism and its effects on international policy.

I personally prefer fascism over that, which , yes, sacrifices many important things, but still retains the order and infrastructure.

I mean, would you prefer a state, which you have basic needs, but no options to say or do anything against state, or prefer chaotic, disgusting Babylon which exist only to skim of profits from its feelingless, materialistic people, without morale or honor. They prefer De Sadean way.

[Dimentio]

1. You really should interpret the purpose of fascism, to create an proletariat, autroritarian state with bourgouise means, at least it has ment that.

2. Yeah, i accept ignorance as an relative igrorance with a tad of hate mixed up. If you cant understand my point, i write it once again:

Antisemitism is wrong

False likelihood of socialism in order to raise some cooliness-factor is wrong.

Upper class living in luxury while 99,9 % lives in shit in coming years is wrong, and that's solely on liberal capitalism and its effects on international policy.

I personally prefer fascism over that, which , yes, sacrifices many important things, but still retains the order and infrastructure.

I mean, would you prefer a state, which you have basic needs, but no options to say or do anything against state, or prefer chaotic, disgusting Babylon which exist only to skim of profits from its feelingless, materialistic people, without morale or honor. They prefer De Sadean way.

:blink:

Socialism is not about authoritarianism.

Read on or start playing Age of Empires again...

By the way, pre-Hitler national socialism was not related to Italian fascism.

Fascism, for all its faults, had its roots amongst syndicalist and futurist intellectuals in the cultural establishment, and was simply a radical form of Italian nationalism which subordinated everything to the state.

National socialism, including Drexler's ideas, had its root in German reactionary circles prior to World War one, where vulgar darwinism and even more vulgar antisemitism existed in a sort of harmony. National socialism was born in the equivalent of the petty bourgeois conspiratist movement of today. Early ideologues in the late 19th and early 20th century did not even identify themselves as part of a movement, and most of them were mostly news editors, mediums, nationalists and some eccentric people with bizarre race theories. They were a fringe group of the German right-wing mainstream, much like Alex Jones and his supporters are a fringe group, but at the same time a tumour of the US republican party and the large segment of the American population which is supporting its values.

Conspiratism was never big in Italy, or in any other Latin country. I guess the reason why is because Latin countries generally have a very sophisticated political culture where people are aware of the corruption of the politicians and their lying ways, while Germans or Americans in general are more naive and therefore are in need for global sinister plots to explain the illogical moves of their governments.

[ReinoTheProle]

Socialism is not about authoritarianism.

Read on or start playing Age of Empires again...



I prefer Civilization

And yet, you misunderstood me. I said fascism is authoritarian. I didnt mention anything about socialism being authoritarian. Please read very carefully before posting explanations, neverthless finely written.

So, let me point out it one more time

Scale: :thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1: Preferable, fine perhaps
:thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1:: Has problems, but it'll do in grave circumstances.
:thumbup1::thumbup1:: Fails on many levels, but still has an ethos
½: foul piece of shit
National Socialism: :thumbup1::thumbup1: ½ (racial scheisse dropped the score )
Fascism: :thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1:: Yeah, if done properly, why not
Common Marxism-Leninism: :thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1: Read: Fascism AND NO, I AM NOT COMPARING THEM, JUST COMMENTING HOW THEY TURNED OUT.

Liberal Capitalism: ½, enough said, maybe i'll post a topic about it's foulness someday.


And la creme de la creme, Socialism: :thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1:

So, that will be all. No need to argue about any political context of these ideologies, i've said what i've got to say ( or rated ) .Hopefully no igrorant, angry replys will be conceived. Thanks.