Indoctrinating children

[infraxotl]

How far can a parent go to ensure that their child doesn't become some kind of liberal because I know if I spent twenty-odd years only to raise one of those I'd lose my shit.

[Palingenisis]

Good question.

I would say instil in them a sense of duty from a young age and also give them examples of heroism and sacrafice to look up too.

[Palingenisis]

Like make them do volunteer work in their local community.

[The Idler]

How far can a parent go to ensure that their child doesn't become some kind of liberal because I know if I spent twenty-odd years only to raise one of those I'd lose my shit.
You can't. Every human being has the right to freedom of thought.

[Kenco Smooth]

This has come up a few times and the best answer simply seems to be not to try. Teach them to approach things from a reasoned and empathic position and let them make their own mind up about issues.

[28350]

Like make them do volunteer work in their local community.

That's hardly volunteer work.

[Palingenisis]

You can't. Every human being has the right to freedom of thought.

Your forgetting there are two types of freedom...Freedom from restraint and freedom to actually do something. If his kids grow up to be liberals they wont have the freedom to think properly.

[nuisance]

Like make them do volunteer work in their local community.
You're actually an idiot.

[Palingenisis]

You're actually an idiot.

How would you raise a child to be clear thinking and socially responsible?

[nuisance]

How would you raise a child to be clear thinking and socially responsible?
By enabling them to learn from experience, not being forced to do voluntary work...wtf is up with that, nevermind it being a complete oxymoron.
To quote Emma Goldman children should be aided in developing 'a well-rounded individuality' and not 'a patient work slave, professional automaton, tax-paying citizen, or righteous moralist.'
Try reading this on the subject- http://www.infoshop.org/page/AnarchistFAQSectionJ6

[infraxotl]

Good question.

I would say instil in them a sense of duty from a young age and also give them examples of heroism and sacrafice to look up too.

Is that really enough though? Once children start school they only learn things like how Columbus sailed the ocean blue and how the USA is the freest country on the planet. Nearly everyone they'd come into contact with outside of the home will hold views that are diametrically opposed to what they learn from their parents.

[Palingenisis]

Is that really enough though? Once children start school they only learn things like how Columbus sailed the ocean blue and how the USA is the freest country on the planet. Nearly everyone they'd come into contact with outside of the home will hold views that are diametrically opposed to what they learn from their parents.

Well than its also a matter of developing their ability to think clearly so that they understand as fully as they can why their parents think the way they do.

[scarletghoul]

You can't. Every human being has the right to freedom of thought.
Haha what bullshit is this ??

There's no such thing as some abstract 'freedom of thought' or 'thinking for yourself'; we are all conditioned by our surroundings and so on. If a child is not educated into socialist ideas, they will be educated into capitalist thinking. This is the case with most children, especially in the US where the indoctrination into capitalist ideology is pretty extreme. It's a battle of ideas, and we shouldn't hesitate to try and educate our children with the correct socialist ideas, because if we don't they are likely to grow up reactionary.

[Palingenisis]

By enabling them to learn from experience, not being forced to do voluntary work....

Learn from their own experiance great....Why not also learn from the experiance of the humanity that has gone before aswell? Does each generation have to reinvent the wheel from its own experiance?

[Palingenisis]

Haha what bullshit is this ??

.

The poor comrade asks how he can raise his kids so that they dont become liberals and he gets all these replies that are utterly unthinkingly liberal....:laugh:

[nuisance]

Learn from their own experiance great....Why not also learn from the experiance of the humanity that has gone before aswell? Does each generation have to reinvent the wheel from its own experiance?
Experience isn't limited to your own physical endeavours, but learning from others also, not being force fed bullshit from a coercive force who has the sheer arrogance to believe that they have some strange entitlement to mould another in their imagine. It appears that you consider yourself as some god like figure...:blink:
Anyway, if that's what you actually have taken from my post then you really need to brush up on your critical thinking skills.

[infraxotl]

Combating liberalism is arrogant bullshit? No wonder anarchists have never amounted to anything.

[leftace53]

Not that I've had kids, but I suspect education would do the trick (education is my answer to everything lol). Read with them from an early age, show them all the sides to the stories taught in school. Let them make up their own mind, but give them the ability to think critically. Teach them to not take things at face value, and hopefully you'll have a commie in no time.

[28350]

Not that I've had kids, but I suspect education would do the trick (education is my answer to everything lol). Read with them from an early age, show them all the sides to the stories taught in school. Let them make up their own mind, but give them the ability to think critically. Teach them to not take things at face value, and hopefully you'll have a commie in no time.

Yeah, my dad did that with me. I never knew he was a communist until after I told him I was one.
It was pretty sweet.

[nuisance]

Combating liberalism is arrogant bullshit? No wonder anarchists have never amounted to anything.
Experiments in libertarian communism have been far more impressive than the totalitarian death machines freaks like you masterbate to the thought of. Fucking weirdo, there's a reason that your ideology is composed of sad nutters wanting to have complete control over young minds and bodies, it's abuse. And those of you lot posting on here only serve to highlight your alienation and irrelevance to the real world.

[Palingenisis]

Experiments in libertarian communism have been far more impressive than the totalitarian death machines freaks like you masterbate to the thought of. Fucking weirdo, you're ideology is irrelevant.

I think maybe you should do some research...."Stalinism" is pretty much the largest grouping globally on the "left".

[infraxotl]

Experiments in libertarian communism have been far more impressive than the totalitarian death machines freaks like you masterbate to the thought of. Fucking weirdo, there's a reason that your ideology is composed sad nutters, and those posting on here only serve to highlight your alienation from the real world.

How impressive could they be if I've never heard of them?

[Nwoye]

Your forgetting there are two types of freedom...Freedom from restraint and freedom to actually do something. If his kids grow up to be liberals they wont have the freedom to think properly.
if they grow up to be liberals we can just send them to a re-education camp right?

[nuisance]

How impressive could they be if I've never heard of them?
You're pretty ignorant, matey, and with thois new knowledge I don't think that it's out of the realms of possiblity that you actually know fuck all about anarchism.

[nuisance]

I think maybe you should do some research...."Stalinism" is pretty much the largest grouping globally on the "left".
http://kleineanouk.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/orly_owl2.jpg

[danyboy27]

Haha what bullshit is this ??

There's no such thing as some abstract 'freedom of thought' or 'thinking for yourself'; we are all conditioned by our surroundings and so on. If a child is not educated into socialist ideas, they will be educated into capitalist thinking. This is the case with most children, especially in the US where the indoctrination into capitalist ideology is pretty extreme. It's a battle of ideas, and we shouldn't hesitate to try and educate our children with the correct socialist ideas, because if we don't they are likely to grow up reactionary.
you can teach to children about liberty, equality and freedom without spoonfeeding them with political ideas.

regardless of what you think, brainwashing children is not the only alternative around here.

[danyboy27]

I think maybe you should do some research...."Stalinism" is pretty much the largest grouping globally on the "left".

yea, there is a lot of leftist in that world, and there is also a lot of "leftist".

somebody need to explain me one of these day why people who like authoritarism can still be considered leftist.

indoctrinating a children, forcing him political idea in its head while he still young to turn him into some kind of stalin-bot is exactly what leftism is not.

[Demogorgon]

The reason I hold the views I do is partly because I was taught generally to empathise with others and not simply think of myself but mainly because I have wide knowledge of virtually all political viewpoints and an ability to reason critically and think freely. Not because anybody tried to indoctrinate me.

If you try to force children to hold a viewpoint, first of all you are engaging in bad parenting by limiting their ability to reason critically and secondly because they will likely resent you for it and go off to some other ideology as soon as it presents itself. And even if you do succeed they won't exactly have a proper understanding of it. Indoctrination cannot promote critical thinking.

Most of all though, I get the feeling that those advocating indoctrination here might not understand Marxism that well themselves. Rule number one when teaching is to make sure you know what you are talking about before you try to teach anybody else.

[infraxotl]

Unless you home school your children in a basement in the middle of nowhere, they will be indoctrinated simply by living in a capitalist society. Having a game plan to prevent this nonsense is not anti-Marxist or bad parenting.

[danyboy27]

Unless you home school your children in a basement in the middle of nowhere, they will be indoctrinated simply by living in a capitalist society. Having a game plan to prevent this nonsense is not anti-Marxist or bad parenting.

giving to your children the tool to think independently is the way to prevent this, and those tool dosnt require political indoctrination.

learning to your children how advertisement work, how its easy to be manipulated, to learn him to slowly take its own decision, that the best way to counter that.

you dont need to indoctrinate.

[Kyrite]

Why would you want to brainwash your child? Let it make up it's own mind. My opinions are very different from my parents but they respect that I have grown up and have made those opinions.

[infraxotl]

If teaching the truth is the same thing as brainwashing I suppose nobody should ever learn anything from another person.

[The Red Next Door]

Haha what bullshit is this ??

There's no such thing as some abstract 'freedom of thought' or 'thinking for yourself'; we are all conditioned by our surroundings and so on. If a child is not educated into socialist ideas, they will be educated into capitalist thinking. This is the case with most children, especially in the US where the indoctrination into capitalist ideology is pretty extreme. It's a battle of ideas, and we shouldn't hesitate to try and educate our children with the correct socialist ideas, because if we don't they are likely to grow up reactionary.

Friends and I grew up in a capitalistic liberal setting, at home and school and We grew up to be good commies.

[Kyrite]

Friends and I grew up in a capitalistic liberal setting, at home and school and We grew up to be good commies.

This is the same as me. Except they grew up to be liberal cappies that think I'm to extreme... :crying:

[Luisrah]

Friends and I grew up in a capitalistic liberal setting, at home and school and We grew up to be good commies.

Than you are an exception, that is, if you are a ''good communist''.
We're also defined by what surrounds us.

If a kid never gets access to other opinions about politics, doesn't have a critical mind etc, the best he'll think is ''capitalism isn't excellent, but it's the best we've got.''
What I'm trying to say is that it's the education you have that shapes your mind.
If you like your parents very much, and think they are good examples of good people, for example, you will probably have the same ideas they have, act the same way they do, because you think that's what's right.

The thing is, you can educate your child to have a critical mind, and show him the truth about capitalism, showing him facts about what political systems are an alternative. Would you call that indoctrination? Supposedly not, since you're showing him facts, but those will make him dislike the current system and prefer a leftist side of things.

The line between developing a mind free or not of indoctrination can't really be drawn. In the usual acts of the day etc, your child will learn and his mind will shape according to who he likes and dislikes, who he thinks is a good or a bad person.
So if you care about your child, you are indoctrinating him/her, since he'll like you, and follow you.

When doing such things, there's always a tip of subjectivity, and if you don't educate your child with lots of objectivity (as much as you can, which will still make it agree with what you agree), someone else will do it with lots of subjectivity. What do you prefer? What's the problem with convincing your child (not through lies of course) of your point of view if the communist's job is to convince the workers of his point of view?

[Imposter Marxist]

What worked for me, and my mother was this: Instill good values in your child. Tell them to share, to feel compassion, put yourself in others shoes, teach them about equality. Good things, but not exactly political things. Thats what my mother did, and she was apolitical. I naturally drifted towards leftism, and eventually became a Marxist. *Shrug*

[x371322]

As has been already pointed out, we can't forget that if you push a child too hard, they'll only end up rebelling against you. If you enforce communist ideals as hard as some of you are advocating (brainwashing?), they might actually gravitate toward fascism just to piss you off. In the end, no matter what you do, that kid is going to grow up, and will form their own opinions that you might or might not agree with. Get over it. I can't say I if want kids or not... but I imagine I would simply raise them as best I can. I'd introduce them to leftist ideals, but not force anything. Hopefully they'll find their own way.

[Boboulas]

Some of the replys here are truely frightening. Like someone allready said, you can teach children things like liberty, freedom and equality without imposing political ideas on them. Another member said a well-rounded individuality.

These are the groundworks for children to develop their own views of the world while bieng able to judge the opinions and ideas offerd to them.

[AK]

I think maybe you should do some research...."Stalinism" is pretty much the largest grouping globally on the "left".
Which is exactly why the working class is fucked.

[Crusade]

"Freedom" is just the ability to do something. The "freedom" people talk about most of the time is just the "mercy" of those you consider an authority figure. If you have the ability to do something, you have the freedom to do that. And everyone has the freedom to kill you for it. Whether or not you're free depends on your reaction to those who seek to control you. As long as you're living like you're a free man/woman, they can't take that from you unless you give it away.

As far as indoctrinating kids, it's not indocrinating unless you're lying to them. A child is an empty vessel, it's not immoral to fill it with anything, it's gonna be filled anyway, better that it be filled with facts. Just let your child know this is based on your opinion and tell them why you believe it. Also ask them what they believe and debate with them like you'd do anything else, just don't allow them to hurt themselves or others. Wait wait, don't tell me. EVERYONE HAS A RIGHT TO HURT THEMSELVES EVEN 4 YEAR OLDS IF THEY WANT TO BURN THEIR HAND ON THE STOVE THEY CAN DO WHAT THEY WANT WITH THEIR BODY NEGATIVE REP TIME

[Adi Shankara]

The Best way to raise children? well, I hope not to sound narcissist, but I'd hope to emulate in a child the way I was raised; try to put opportunities in front of them,but don't make force them to do anything. sure enough, they'll learn enough on their own.

for example, when I was younger, I was exposed to a wide range of marxist thinkers through PBS documentaries and other such media like National Geographic. don't make them do anything, but don't let them do everything, at the same time. that means, give them the choice to read books, but not to watch television. don't lie to them about ideas that you don't agree with, but present an idea to them that you encourage--children aren't robots, they know when they are being used. (at least I did).

I was really lucky though; I grew up in a home with a sister who (used to, anyways) believe in strongly in multiculturalism and the greatness of cultures different from mine (I'm Russian American); these other cultures, especially those from Africa, interested me so much, that to this day, I thank myself being a leftist to the exposure to other cultures and diversity of the world's people, and the common strength and need for freedom from oppression that we all share. Thus, growing up, I didn't grow up a Eurocentric or a capitalist, because I saw the inherent good in all the world's cultures--who knew that National Geographic could be so great in teaching a young kid about the ways of the world? :D

thus, be a role model; show these things in a positive light, rather than force feeding thoughts into a child's mind.

[NGNM85]

I happen to be of the opinion that we generally shouldn't be 'indoctrinating' anybody.

[Proletarian Ultra]

A child's ideological orientation will most likely reflect the class position he or she grows into. If you are bourgeois, petty bourgeois or part of the management caste, even maintaining a consistent socialist position for yourself is like defying gravity; let along passing it on to your child. Raise your kids to be self-confident, happy and sensitive, teach them to think like free people, to spot self-interested bullshit, to hate oppression, above all try not to fuck them up so they hate you. That's "all" you can or have to do.

[Adi Shankara]

A child's ideological orientation will most likely reflect the class position he or she grows into. If you are bourgeois, petty bourgeois or part of the management caste, even maintaining a consistent socialist position for yourself is like defying gravity

That's not necessarily true; it just takes some exposure to the reality of poverty, much the way Siddartha left his Palace walls and first experienced suffering.

Che Guevara and Fidel Castro, for example, had relatively decent upbringings where they could've been considered "bourgeoisie; Mao's family (while not extremely well-off) were landowners. but they all ended up joining the ranks of the Revolution, and with it, changed the way most people view communism to this day.

[The Ben G]

Time to stop thinking like Conservatives/Fascists. Hell, if my kid is a Neo Con, not only will I spank him, but I will probably have a long argument with him, and if he wins, I will make him starve to death. Ok, maybe that is thinking like a Fascist.

[TheSamsquatch]

This is one of the main causes of ignorance. Young people blindly repeating what their parents spew, when their parents are in fact spewing what they've been spoon-fed by their parents and the media. Wake up and think for yourself!!

[Sir Comradical]

Try and find an engaging, cartoon illustrated children's version of the communist manifesto and read it to them often when they're young.

[28350]

Try and find an engaging, cartoon illustrated children's version of the communist manifesto and read it to them often when they're young.

Like so?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbTIJ9_bLP4

[Bilan]

Unless you home school your children in a basement in the middle of nowhere, they will be indoctrinated simply by living in a capitalist society. Having a game plan to prevent this nonsense is not anti-Marxist or bad parenting.

You don't have a game plan. You and these other Stalinist turds are openly promoting the indoctrination of children. You are little more than despicable, sorry ass pieces of shit.
Everything you and the other cretins have said on this subject has only illustrated how opposed you are to Marxism.


My mother, and my great grandmother were both active communists - as were a number of my aunts and uncles. Not one of them ever tried to indoctrinate or force anything on me, ever.
I came to my conclusions myself. They were willing to discuss.
It is the willingness to discuss with people, to rationally approach ideas that brings people to communism.
Not force feeding them.

It was my cousins, ironically, who were forced fed a heap of right wing propaganda by their mother. And now, they are breaking away at the first opportunity .

[Klaatu]

How would you raise a child to be clear thinking and socially responsible?

That's easy: I would not let them watch television. ;)

[The Red Next Door]

This is the same as me. Except they grew up to be liberal cappies that think I'm to extreme... :crying:

I have a liberal cappies friends that are just too late to save.

[AK]

That's easy: I would not let them watch television. ;)
It's really not as simple as that. Have you ever tried taking away TV privileges from a five year old?

[danyboy27]

That's easy: I would not let them watch television. ;)


then again, restriction and coercion is wrong, and dosnt work.

the best course of action is to watch tv with your children, explain to him how advertisement work, use this medium has an opportunity to teach him your values.

and beside, there is a lot of wonderful stuff like documentaries you could use to expand your children vision of this world.

[infraxotl]

This is one of the main causes of ignorance. Young people blindly repeating what their parents spew, when their parents are in fact spewing what they've been spoon-fed by their parents and the media. Wake up and think for yourself!!

I think there's a difference between a child being spoon-fed historical materialism versus a child being spoon-fed unscientific garbage that they heard from rush limbaugh.


You don't have a game plan. You and these other Stalinist turds are openly promoting the indoctrination of children. You are little more than despicable, sorry ass pieces of shit.
Everything you and the other cretins have said on this subject has only illustrated how opposed you are to Marxism.

http://i46.tinypic.com/2nqqvrr.gif

[danyboy27]

I think there's a difference between a child being spoon-fed historical materialism versus a child being spoon-fed unscientific garbage that they heard from rush limbaugh.


no there is absolutely no difference, you still dont give to the children the choice, you force him in his head something beccause you think your interpretation of it is right.

but is it? sure you can explain him what historical materialism is, but by spoonfeeding him, repeteadly telling him this is the best shit ever, you rape his mind and take away his right of freewill.

i am against religious indoctrination for that verry reason, i was baptised when i was a child, i was not able to choose, many other people when i was young had the same issues, where raised catholics, without even be able to have the choice.

political indoctrination is has dirty, has evil.

i am not saying teach the kid nothing. teach kindness, generosity, justice, equality, the relation between man and money, give him the tool to choose the side he is on.

Freewill is the most important thing in the world, and i shall never take it away from other.

[Demogorgon]

I think the Stalin-kiddies here give a good practical example of the perils of indoctrination. Try to brainwash a child and they won't have a critical understanding of Marxism-indeed they won't understand it at all-they will just repeat warped slogans they don't understand, much as those advocating this means do.

[Bilan]

http://i46.tinypic.com/2nqqvrr.gif

Clever, but nevertheless, the statement stands. You know nothing about education, psychology, children or reality. Keep your stalinist fantasies beneath your sheets.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Just out of interest (actually to demonstrate the stupidity of a large number of the comments) - how many of the posters on this thread actually have children of their own?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I'm of the opinion that one shouldn't tell their children what to think, but it is of vital importance to teach them how to think.

[The Idler]

Ever considered that you might learn something by listening to your children?

[infraxotl]

Ever considered that you might learn something by listening to your children?

Absolutely not.

[redmist]

Absolutely not.

Oh I do hope that is sarcastic.

Just love your kids, answer their questions, offer them opportunities, let them make their own mistakes and don't force them to do shit. Kids are kids at the end of the day though, my dad treated me and my brother identically and I'm a commie and my bro thinks capitalism is top draw. Some times shit just happens like that. :thumbup1:

[Proletarian Ultra]

That's not necessarily true; it just takes some exposure to the reality of poverty, much the way Siddartha left his Palace walls and first experienced suffering.

Like I said "Raise your kids to be self-confident, happy and sensitive, teach them to think like free people, to spot self-interested bullshit, to hate oppression, above all try not to fuck them up so they hate you. That's "all" you can or have to do." Although if my kid grew up to be a Buddhist I might just have to brain him.


Che Guevara and Fidel Castro, for example, had relatively decent upbringings where they could've been considered "bourgeoisie; Mao's family (while not extremely well-off) were landowners. but they all ended up joining the ranks of the Revolution, and with it, changed the way most people view communism to this day.

True. Just saying it's not terribly common.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Ever considered that you might learn something by listening to your children?

No, but that's far from the only reason to listen to them.

[Bilan]

Ever considered that you might learn something by listening to your children?

That wetting yourself can trigger a series of mixed, contradictory emotions, only to be solved by M&Ms?

[Bilan]

Oh I do hope that is sarcastic.

Just love your kids, answer their questions, offer them opportunities, let them make their own mistakes and don't force them to do shit. Kids are kids at the end of the day though, my dad treated me and my brother identically and I'm a commie and my bro thinks capitalism is top draw. Some times shit just happens like that. :thumbup1:

Fact is, you're not a mirror of your parents dreams.

[Quail]

Some of the posters in this thread worry me. You can't force your child to have the same beliefs as you, and trying to do so will probably drive them to rebel and become conservatives or something. I'm thinking that with my son, I'm going to try to teach him how to think for himself and to question things and stand up for himself. He will probably learn leftie values by being around me and my boyfriend, and being with me when I'm at (non violent) demos and doing stuff in the community. I'm never going to shove my opinions down his throat, but the atmosphere he grows up in will expose him to a variety of opinions.

[danyboy27]

Just out of interest (actually to demonstrate the stupidity of a large number of the comments) - how many of the posters on this thread actually have children of their own?

last time i checked we all been children in the past.
we all got our fair amount of educational baggage.

its not beccause you had children that you are a better parent btw, i was on my main street last nigt and saw a drunk mother with her 3 teenage children vandalizing a construction site for fun, in the neigborhood i am from that kind of shit happen everyday, so please cut that crap pal.

[Jolly Red Giant]

last time i checked we all been children in the past.
we all got our fair amount of educational baggage.

its not beccause you had children that you are a better parent btw, i was on my main street last nigt and saw a drunk mother with her 3 teenage children vandalizing a construction site for fun, in the neigborhood i am from that kind of shit happen everyday, so please cut that crap pal.
I know this might be difficult for you to understand - but this was not really the point I was making.

Going from your post, I take it that you don't have any children - and given the content of your post you are actually proving my point.

[danyboy27]

I know this might be difficult for you to understand - but this was not really the point I was making.

Going from your post, I take it that you don't have any children - and given the content of your post you are actually proving my point.

nope it didnt, all what i described above was about MY education that i received at home, back then freewill was something important, and if i have chindren one day, i will make it my first priority.

in that sense, i can speak from experience from the education i received.

[Jolly Red Giant]

in that sense, i can speak from experience from the education i received.
I can assure you that all the experience in the world won't make a blind bit of difference.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I know this might be difficult for you to understand - but this was not really the point I was making.

Going from your post, I take it that you don't have any children - and given the content of your post you are actually proving my point.

What is your point? You didn't make one, you just asked an asinine and irrelevant question.

[danyboy27]

I can assure you that all the experience in the world won't make a blind bit of difference.

where did you take the base of the education you give to your children?

do you have a degree in raising children or something?

[Jolly Red Giant]

What is your point? You didn't make one,
Try reading it again - it might be a little subtle for you


you just asked an asinine and irrelevant question.
If you had children you would know the question was far from irrelevent.

[Jolly Red Giant]

where did you take the base of the education you give to your children?

Again - if you had children you would know the stupidity of the question.

The starting point for any discussion on parents 'educating' children (and I wouldn't actually use that term myself) is based on your own childhood experiences. Irrespective of whatever attitude someone has before becoming a parent - it goes out the window as soon as you actually become one. From that point parents generally end up doing one of two things - either parenting the same as their parents did (or actually the dominant parent) - or doing the exact opposite - both scenarios are probably not the best. You spend the rest of your life (if you are aware of what you are doing) trying to consciously not be like your own parents or trying not to be the exact opposite of your parents.

Attempting to 'indoctrinate' or 'politically educate' your children will backfire completely on anyone who attempts it. If you want to demonstate to your children you view of politics you do it through example and they might (and I stress might) think you are not being an asshole like every other typical parent. Eventually you children will, through their own life experiences, draw their own conclusions about the nature of society and may conclude that it is necessary to fight for a different type of society. The example you give may assist them in drawing similar conclusions to yourself, but don't count on it.

Finally - remember this - chances are a significant majority of you will have got over your rebellious phase before you have any children and will probably blow a gasket when your own children gravitate towards Marxism, just like your parents did.

[danyboy27]

Again - if you had children you would know the stupidity of the question.

The starting point for any discussion on parents 'educating' children (and I wouldn't actually use that term myself) is based on your own childhood experiences. Irrespective of whatever attitude someone has before becoming a parent - it goes out the window as soon as you actually become one. From that point parents generally end up doing one of two things - either parenting the same as their parents did (or actually the dominant parent) - or doing the exact opposite - both scenarios are probably not the best. You spend the rest of your life (if you are aware of what you are doing) trying to consciously not be like your own parents or trying not to be the exact opposite of your parents.

Attempting to 'indoctrinate' or 'politically educate' your children will backfire completely on anyone who attempts it. If you want to demonstate to your children you view of politics you do it through example and they might (and I stress might) think you are not being an asshole like every other typical parent. Eventually you children will, through their own life experiences, draw their own conclusions about the nature of society and may conclude that it is necessary to fight for a different type of society. The example you give may assist them in drawing similar conclusions to yourself, but don't count on it.

Finally - remember this - chances are a significant majority of you will have got over your rebellious phase before you have any children and will probably blow a gasket when your own children gravitate towards Marxism, just like your parents did.
well, first of all, why attack me then? i have been validating just that since the begining of the damn tread!

i said that indoctrination was bullshit, just like you just said, it will backfire.

why are you attacking me then, you are so damn confusing.

of course, i aint no parent, but that dosnt mean my critics are not valid.

Unless of course i am unworthy beccause i dont have children.

[infraxotl]

Finally - remember this - chances are a significant majority of you will have got over your rebellious phase before you have any children and will probably blow a gasket when your own children gravitate towards Marxism, just like your parents did.

You assume that we're all white middle class college students, like most trots/anarchos/liberals.

[danyboy27]

You assume that we're all white middle class college students, like most trots/anarchos/liberals.

yayy more stupid broad generalization of anything that dosnt sound like your ideology! yayy!

most anarchist and liberal i came across where from extremely low income families, now.

cut the crap pal.

[GreenCommunism]

i don't think endoctrination always backfire, why do people mostly follow the religion of their parents? isn't it the same thing as ideology? not that i am arguing for it, i think they will change their mind later on if they are and there is no point.

[Chambered Word]

The Stalinist idea that people can be forced into a mindset like socialism is ridiculously utopian and represents a top-down approach. Socialism means freedom for workers to organize and emancipate themselves.


You assume that we're all white middle class college students, like most trots/anarchos/liberals.

You really are a moron who doesn't have a clue. :rolleyes:

[AK]

Holy shit. It's actually sad to think that some of us here feel the need to indoctrinate their children into their political beliefs. Maybe it's a sign you're doing something wrong...

You assume that we're all white middle class college students, like most trots/anarchos/liberals.
If anyone here is infantile, it's probably you with your immediate denunciation of anyone who doesn't agree with you as an evil liberal.

[Jolly Red Giant]

well, first of all, why attack me then?
Actually you were the first to criticise me




of course, i aint no parent, but that dosnt mean my critics are not valid.
Unless of course i am unworthy beccause i dont have children.
Your criticisms are valid - but trust me, they take on a whole new complexion when you have children.


You assume that we're all white middle class college students, like most trots/anarchos/liberals.
Every Maoist I have ever met was middle class or upper middle class and all of them were students.

The Stalinists I have known generally come from a working class background but inevitably ended up becoming trade union hacks of the bureaucracy.

And working class activists are just as likely to drop out of revolutionary activity as anyone else. It will be interesting to see how long you last - particularly as Stalinism/Maoism will have nothing to offer the working class in the coming period.

[Bilan]

Don't feed the troll.

[infraxotl]

A bourgeois individual can afford to uphold utopian leftist ideologies because at the end of the day it doesn't affect him or her at all. At least animal rights activists choose to stroke their egos with worthless animals that don't have their own voice, you'd rather trample all over the people to get your kick.

[nuisance]

A bourgeois individual can afford to uphold utopian leftist ideologies because at the end of the day it doesn't affect him or her at all. At least animal rights activists choose to stroke their egos with worthless animals that don't have their own voice, you'd rather trample all over the people to get your kick.
I don't think you're going to need to why about indoctrinating any children...

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Try reading it again - it might be a little subtle for you

Humour me.


If you had children you would know the question was far from irrelevent.

Being a parent does not automatically make one a good parent. Your kind of question is one any shitty parent can use in an attempt to deflect criticism.

[Pavlov's House Party]

I have a comrade who has a kid, he taught him to think independantly and be a concious member of society and never forces socialist stuff down the kid's throat. He is a great father and a great guy in general and his son looks up to him as a role model, and picked up left-wing ideas because he followed his father's example. You don't need to force feed kids ideas; if you're a good parent your kids will follow from example. Being a paranoid stalinist totalitarian parent is pretty much the opposite, and you will probably end up with kids who are total right wingers because they've seen what stalinism does to people. Its like how kids from ultra-conservative religious families end up to be athiest leftists the minute they leave to college.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Use scientific thought & reasoning to help build your child's thoughts:


This topic seems to be an important one, in which comes to the mind of any person who's, 1) a leftist (whether a socialist, communist, anarchist, etc.), & 2) wants to be a parent someday. The idea that your own child may not be who you want them to be in life, or worse, become the enemy of your very beliefs is intolerable & quite nerve wrecking at times. In which, this all usually leads up to the natural procedure that most parents of today partake in - authoritarianism. Forcing the child of your own to believe in what you believe, to view as you view, in which only brings detrimental effects to their daily life as they grow up. As studies have shown, when parenting like this is put into action, the child more than likely rebels & becomes what you despise either way. So the authoritarian take on parenting should be an easy "no-no".

Another way parents tend to take on is the idea that, as long as they let their child do what ever they want & gets the best any child could get, then that child will be perfect & will love you because of it. Sadly, this is becoming a well used tactic by many modern-day parents of the 21st century. The act of spoiling your child, thinking that, by these acts alone, your child will become un-corruptible is laughable at least, & worrying at best. You may think that a child will love you forever because you're always doing & giving them what they want, but fact of the matter is that the child will eventually take on the idea that they're special from other kids & deserve the best when they want it & where they want it. Which only leads them to taking advantage of you. Besides, if you were trying to gain your child's support in order for them to allow you to make them class aware, do you really think spoiling them will do this? I would say hardly not. The best they might become would be an anarcho-capitalist, if not worse. Yes, authoritarianism is bad, but a little authority isn't always wrong. Parents should be guiders, not servants.

So what exactly should a parent do in order for their child to become the good little socialist/communist they always wanted them to be? Well, it won't come through the use of force, & it sure as hell won't come through the act of spoiling them rotten. Well, as a Marxist, I believe that things should be taken dialectically & see things as a moving path, not just something at face value. Socialism, as was written by Karl Marx, should be taken under scientific thought - hence the term "Scientific Socialism". If what your goal pertains is the development of a class-aware child towards the ideal of Socialism, then it should only be taken like anything else when it comes to Socialism - scientifically.

So what does science tell us when it comes to the development of thought, itself? Well, one has to first understand that there is no such thing as "human nature". Man (mankind) does not just get born into who they are now. Instead, like the same process we went through growing up, the development of thought is brought by what we call "environmental conditioning". What this means is that, whatever they see, hear, & are put on them by another, they learn from those personal experiences & give off a certain repetitive motion from what they saw as a kid, & apply such when they've finally grown up. So if a child becomes a killer, one can bet that they would be able to find the source to such behavior by merely looking into his/her's past, in which of course could lead to how the parents treated their child as they grew up. But of course, this just leads to another question - how do I environmentally condition my child to become class-aware?

Alright, look at it like this. Let's say mommy & daddy are die-hard Marxists. They read Communist literature, watch the news & criticize it through dialectical reasoning or collective thought, & more than likely go on some kind of peace rally, in which promotes their views. The child, as s/he grows up, will witness these things & learn from it. They'll eventually start asking questions, in which every child does, & that should be when you educate them by answering their questions. Don't tell them if what you're saying is right or wrong, but rather your own intake on what it is & let them try & understand it themselves. I promise, if you treat your kid right & let them go about their day, you'll find yourself having a son or daughter in which is similar to you.

So in other words, take things under a dialectical manner & just let your kid live his/her own life. Live yours as you take care of your child & let the environment guide him/her. As any parent should, be around your child whenever possible. S/he will need you a lot in life, & with that constant surrounding, they'll notice your way of life & will eventually adapt to it. That is the only way a child should be brought up in life, especially if you're hoping to develop class-awareness within your child. To become class aware, they must first become aware that they are within a free-will position to learn what they can, when they can. I'm not saying you shouldn't guide your child towards your belief, quite the opposite actually. I don't want you to tell good things about Capitalism if you know Capitalism is wrong. Just give them your own intake on things & let them learn from there. See if they agree with you or not.

So remember, in order to gain Socialism, whether it be through class awareness through a community, whether it be direct action by a group, or merely to try & gain numbers, in which those numbers may be your own children, you must always partake in it through scientific thought, as pertained by Karl Marx, himself. So good luck all present & future parents in your journey in bringing about another class-aware individual into this world. The revolution has no boundaries. The world is our backyard. Use it!

[Bilan]

A bourgeois individual can afford to uphold utopian leftist ideologies because at the end of the day it doesn't affect him or her at all. At least animal rights activists choose to stroke their egos with worthless animals that don't have their own voice, you'd rather trample all over the people to get your kick.

What a load of self-satisfied crap. Spare us your drivel. I would be surprised if anyone on here, let alone any of the anarchists, left-coms, syndicalists, or non-maoist/stalinist communists are bourgeois. And I don't think you understand what that means as a political criticism (rather than, as used by you, a term of slander).

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I understand where the OP is coming from. The stuff my brother comes out with that come from his school are pretty embarrassingly liberal and trite. He thought the Liberal Democrats were a good party because of one of his teachers.

[Animal Farm Pig]

I'm a bit disturbed by this thread. I'm disturbed by the term "indoctrinating." I'm also disturbed by the idea of "letting the kids form their own opinions."

The class nature of society is a fact. Capitalist exploitation is a fact. If you do not accept these facts, how can you call yourself a Marxist revolutionary?

Children are not taught these facts in school or by "mainstream" society. It is the job of the parent to educate their children well.

Teaching your children Marxist theory is no different than teaching your children the theory of gravity or theory of evolution. Would you accept for your children to believe creationist ideas or to believe that the earth is flat? Would you say that your children can "form their own opinions" and you'll respect those opinions? I sure as fuck won't. I'll still love them no matter what, but if they're believing counter-factual nonsense, I will stridently oppose it.

Marxist theory is different than evolution theory or theory of gravity because it's an active theory.

Theory of gravity is purely observation. Acceleration due to gravity on earth is 9.8 meters per second per second. 1 second 9.8 meters per second, 2 seconds 18.4 meters per second, etc. etc. You cannot change it too much (unless you introduce something very massive or change universal gravitational constant).

Marxist theory is observation also. Capitalist expropriates surplus value from workers to increase own wealth. Result is wealth for the capitalists and poverty for others. (I don't think anyone here disagrees.)

The difference between observation of gravity and observation of class structure in society is that we cannot change gravity (outside of exotic methods), but we can change class structure of society. In fact, if you are a decent person, you want to change the class structure to end the structural violence brought about by capitalism.

So, I say, I want to raise a child who is a decent person.

I will explain Marxist theory to my child. If my child does not "believe" this theory, I will treat him in the same way as if he did not believe theory of evolution. I will patiently explain theory and how it is the most accurate representation of reality.

I will teach my child to harm others is wrong. I don't think anyone will disagree with this. Capitalism kills people. This is harm. As a moral person, my child should understand this intuitively. He will be a revolutionary as I am also.

[Quail]

I think that you've misunderstood "letting them form their own opinions"; I think most people in this thread intend to teach their children how to think for themselves (which mainstream education doesn't tend to do) so that they can form their own sensible opinions.