What if...

[Hexen]

Lets just say if the Abrahamic mythology was right and we really were descended from Adam and Eve, I've been wondering how different the human race would be? Would leftist beliefs (communism, feminism, socialism, anarchism, etc) would even exist? Would the crimes against humanity that the religions committed (witch huntings, inquisition, burning times, etc) be justifiable? Then therefore the Right-Wing would be right while the Left-Wing is wrong? Or is it actually a very unrealistic outlook of the world?

Just a thought...

[Blake's Baby]

Well, I've read of turgid works by fundamantalist Christians arguing that the Bible is true; so, if it were all true, it would... look like this. Precisely like the world we have, where mystical sect leaders are revered on TV and by cheering crowds, and revolutionaries are on the whole derided and mocked when they're not completely ignored.

[Hexen]

Well one concerning aspect is that if the Abrahamic mythology was true then would a post-revolutionary society even gender/sex egalitarianism be possible? Or not due to some curse traced back to Adam & Eve?

[Blake's Baby]

According to Augustine of Hippo, we're all fallen because of the sin of Adam and Eve; so without God's help, we're all doomed. Yes, communism would be impossible. There is no communism; QED God is doing his bit.

It's quite simple.

And totally untrue. There's no reason to be 'concerned' unless you actually believe in any of it. In which case, why not just ask Magic Man to sort it out?

[Hexen]

According to Augustine of Hippo, we're all fallen because of the sin of Adam and Eve; so without God's help, we're all doomed. Yes, communism would be impossible. There is no communism; QED God is doing his bit.

It's quite simple.
And totally untrue.


This even includes gender egalitarianism?

Also what about before Augustine of Hippo or basically going back to the roots of Abrahamic mythology, does that same "we're all fallen because of Adam & Eve" claim exist as well or was it made up by him? (I think I was asking if the mythology that Christianity is based off is true it doesn't mean the individual religion is but the mythology itself)


In which case, why not just ask Magic Man to sort it out?

Who is Magic Man? Is s/he a member here?

[lombas]

It would mean I was in to some serious incest this morning.

[Blake's Baby]

...

Who is Magic Man? Is s/he a member here?

Magic Man = God.

I'm sorry, I'm having trouble taking your questions seriously, and yet, you seem to keep asking them.

If the mythology is true, is there any particular reason that Augustine would be wrong, given that he derived his position from the mythology?

What you seem to be asking is, if the Bible is true, are we doomed? And the answer is, yes.

But as it isn't true we're not.

[Hexen]

I always thought that the whole "Human Nature" myth can be traced back to Augustine of Hippo perhaps...Gets to show that captialists secularize religious ideals (or basically fatalism/determanism/defeatism) to ensure that the working classes don't rise up while ruling classes stay intact...I guess it's one of the oldest tricks in the book.

Thus a Abrahamic centric cosmology would probably be impractical anyways..

Basically I always thought if the Bible (or even Abrahamic mythology) was true then revolutionary ideals would never would have been invented or even thought of unlike we see today...

[Blake's Baby]

I agree about the Augustinian tradition being for the purposes of surpressing class-conflict - the argument before 418AD was that riches were a sign of iniquity (the church was pretty egalitarian in the 1st-4th centuries), but when the church became wealthy and powerful it needed a justification - cue, rich people are blessed by god, and we're all sinful, so we need the (rich, blessed) church to intercede. I have also used the same argument against Stalinists who think that 'free-access communism' is impossible. As I don't believe in 'the Fall' I don't need to believe that humans are automatically going to be nasty to each other.

But if the Bible is 'true' and we have this world we have, then it must be possible because it happened. Maybe the devil whispered it to Marx or something.

[Mahatma Gandhi]

As I don't believe in 'the Fall' I don't need to believe that humans are automatically going to be nasty to each other.


One doesn't have to believe in The Fall to acknowledge that humans are nasty to each other. Even a casual observation of human behavior should suffice. Add to that our glorious human history filled with wars and bloodshed.

[Hexen]

But if the Bible is 'true' and we have this world we have, then it must be possible because it happened. Maybe the devil whispered it to Marx or something.

Hmmm...Have you ever noticed that in most mythologies, there is mythological figures that was actually trying to help humanity (like Lucifer, Prometheus, etc) but they either got damned or casted down by God/Gods/Goddesses and demonized?

It kinda makes me realize that Religion is basically slavery to those Gods...

Edit: Oh Wait a Minute...I just realized something while writing this...Going back to the "Do Aliens Exist" thread, I also realized that our capitalist society have also secularized Augustine's ideals saying that Ancient Astronauts helped humanity because "their too primitive to do it our selves"...I sense a pattern here...

Makes me realize that this entire thing is total BULLSHIT....

In conclusion of this, It seems that Religion and Pseudoscientific theories (such as the Ancient Astronaut theories) seems to point out that humanity needed help from external higher power/forces (as if a hierarchical structure...) rather than doing things ourselves which as if it's trying to point out that our race is incompetent and worthless (probably only except a certain wealthy individuals) which highly goes back to capitalist ideals....

It's all clear to me now..

[Blake's Baby]

One doesn't have to believe in The Fall to acknowledge that humans are nasty to each other. Even a casual observation of human behavior should suffice. Add to that our glorious human history filled with wars and bloodshed.

One doesn't have to be a grammarian to realise that 'humans are automatically going to be nasty to each other' isn't the same as 'humans are nasty to each other'. If you're nasty it's because you want to be, not because 6,014 years ago someone ate some unidentifiable fruit that may or may not have been a fig.

[Comrade Anarchist]

If your equating free markets with the right, where they don't belong, then neither side would be right. If god were real then we would be under religious law which is practically totalitarianism. Only this place doesn't need security cameras and telescreens b/c the magic spaceman would be watching us. Markets wouldn't exist and all effort would go toward living for god. So actually it would be more like stalinist russia and less like a free market individual liberty society.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

One doesn't have to believe in The Fall to acknowledge that humans are nasty to each other. Even a casual observation of human behavior should suffice. Add to that our glorious human history filled with wars and bloodshed.

As pointed out, humans are not nasty to each other all the time.

Furthermore, the human nastiness that does occur has a variety of perfectly mundane sources. Ultimately the reason why humans are not perfect angels is because our evolutionary heritage blinds us to the mistakes we make.

Thankfully we as a species have the potential to overcome those limitations through directed self-transformation and/or the creation of an intelligence that lacks our shortcomings.

[tradeunionsupporter]

I accept Evolution.

[Mahatma Gandhi]

Furthermore, the human nastiness that does occur has a variety of perfectly mundane sources.

How would you, for instance, explain sadomasochism?


Thankfully we as a species have the potential to overcome those limitations through directed self-transformation and/or the creation of an intelligence that lacks our shortcomings.

History, regrettably, has shown us otherwise.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

How would you, for instance, explain sadomasochism?

What is there to explain? Humans have a diverse amount of things that "push our buttons". Such behaviours can be inbuilt or acquired, or some esoteric mixture of the two.


History, regrettably, has shown us otherwise.

Actually, I think the reverse is the case. Take war. While wars have gotten larger in terms of participants, the proportion of people dying in them has decreased dramatically. Despite acquiring nuclear weapons of terrifying power, we have yet to nuke ourselves into radioactive cinders. We actually give a shit about the environment nowadays; before the twentieth century it was hardly an issue. Modern opinion has turned against slavery, even if we haven't completely eradicated it. We're actually capable of conquering crippling diseases.

Sure, we're far from perfect, but to deny there has been any improvement, or even to claim that things have gotten worse, is to look at the past through rose-tinted spectacles.