Do most support councils?

[StoneFrog]

I was thinking do most major tendencies support councils or soviets?

[Weezer]

Bolshevism was founded on worker's councils, of course I do. Every Bolshevik, I would hope, supports democracy and worker's control of the means of production.

[StoneFrog]

Does that include community councils?

[MarxSchmarx]

Does that include community councils?

What do you mean by community councils? Do you mean councils outside of workplaces? Some hard-line syndicalists view(ed) workplace based councils as the sole necessary means of future governance. However, I know of noone on revleft who takes this view seriously - some may argue that workplace based councils can evolve into or inspire things representing neighborhood councils or are uniquely poised to end capitalism, but there is a need in most leftists minds for sort of assembly outside the workplace. Indeed, at the very least there must be some mechanism (apart from market pricing) whereby the relative demand of consumer goods are determined, and in a democratic economy, councils that don't directly involve the producers of the commodities seem a necessary precondition for such mechanisms to function.

[Jimmie Higgins]

What do you mean by community councils? Do you mean councils outside of workplaces? Some hard-line syndicalists view(ed) workplace based councils as the sole necessary means of future governance. However, I know of noone on revleft who takes this view seriously - some may argue that workplace based councils can evolve into or inspire things representing neighborhood councils or are uniquely poised to end capitalism, but there is a need in most leftists minds for sort of assembly outside the workplace. Indeed, at the very least there must be some mechanism (apart from market pricing) whereby the relative demand of consumer goods are determined, and in a democratic economy, councils that don't directly involve the producers of the commodities seem a necessary precondition for such mechanisms to function.

I agree. IMO I think we would need to argue for the need and usefulness of specifically workplace councils if people began forming councils in communities first. But if workers organized themselves at their workplace as well as in their neighborhoods like in Argentina during the financial crisis, it would be idiotic for a radical to argue for workers to have less places to organize themselves and their lives.

Workplace councils are the most important because the working class needs to be able to run production together, but other councils would also be needed (and probably develop naturally imo) for other kinds of planning.

[RebelDog]

Bolshevism was founded on worker's councils, of course I do. Every Bolshevik, I would hope, supports democracy and worker's control of the means of production.

Sometimes what one hopes can be very far from the reality. In this case, I fear, that hope is futher than the universe is wide.

[ContrarianLemming]

I support uel gvoernance between worker councils and community councils

[thälmann]

i think councils are very important. they are the way a proletarian state is built up. but i have problems with so called democratic controlled production. those, who are elected in the departmend for economy control the means of production. not the workers in every factory can control what to produce...this would be a problem for a socialist planned economy. like we saw it in yugoslavia

[Raúl Duke]

I support workplace democracy/workplace councils and community councils/assemblies...

I would support them as a replacement form of governance/organization over a state and/or as organs that have more power than the state alla (an idealized view of) Paris Commune.

Although, I'm an anarcho-communist...I expect most in that tendency to support these things.

[The Ben G]

Of Course! Democracy is the best solution.

[Vendetta]

I was thinking do most major tendencies support councils or soviets?

i sure damn hope so.

[automattick]

Anarchists and left communists do. Bolsheviks supported them initially, until they were coopted after 1917.

[maskerade]

One definition of capitalism is the separation between labour and capital - so most if not all socialists are in favour of workers seizing the means of production and controlling them themselves, in Soviets for example.

I think community councils are important too - to delegate community needs to workers, for example

[StoneFrog]

now what are peoples views on if councils should or should not be lead by a party?

[Weezer]

now what are peoples views on if councils should or should not be lead by a party?

I think they should be independently run by locals, but have association with the vanguard.

[el_chavista]

But the Russian word "совет" means council in English :confused:

[automattick]

now what are peoples views on if councils should or should not be lead by a party?

Great question. Absolutely not. This is the famous "spontaneity versus organization" debate. I think history has proven that all of the Leninist vanguards have failed roundly and steered a course for opportunism and state capitalism.

What about you?

[Die Neue Zeit]

I think the question should be rephrased: Do most leftists fetishize councils?

Unfortunately, the answer is a woefully illusory yes. :(

[StoneFrog]

Great question. Absolutely not. This is the famous "spontaneity versus organization" debate. I think history has proven that all of the Leninist vanguards have failed roundly and steered a course for opportunism and state capitalism.

What about you?


i have to agree with you, but lets not make this an all out tendency dispute.

[Uppercut]

As far as I know, all Marxists (whatever the tendency) supports local councils/assemblies/revolutionary committees. They're especially popping up in places like Nepal and the liberated zones of India.

[vampire squid]

no, i want the politburo to micromanage everything.

[Raúl Duke]

now what are peoples views on if councils should or should not be lead by a party?

They need to be independent. Worker's councils especially, those are organs of working class rule.

[Jolly Red Giant]

I have added a new thread on the Limerick Soviets 1919-1922 on the history forum if anyone is interested.